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The battle is in Illinois now...


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#21 Maxel

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 02:18 PM

Whether it be Prop #8 or Prop #2, it is still politics. I like to have my own standards as set by the Church. That is my free agency. I also like to be joyous as spoken about by Joseph Smith. As my brother's keeper can I deny him the same?

Now I'm confused... How would bad publicity in the church ultimately deny your brother the same agency you have? I understand the argument about bad publicity, but in the Church's case, 2 facts are true: (well, at least 2)

1) There has always been plenty of bad publicity for the Church. Hasn't stopped its rapid growth.

2) Any publicity in the end is 'good' publicity in that any fair-minded person following the Light of Christ who is introduced to the Church- in any fashion- will eventually join it (whether it be in 5, 10, or 500 years).

Ultimately, the bad publicity is an unfortunate side effect of living in a fallen world. When God's people move in a direction ordained by God when the world is moving the opposite direction, people of the world decry the people of God.

If you were talking about Prop #8 supposedly denying your brother the same rights you enjoy... let's not get into that here. I agree to disagree to whatever.
2 Nephi 2:25: Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.
2 Nephi 25:23, 26: For we labor diligently... to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do... And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

#22 cofchristcousin

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 02:52 PM

This is a real question, and is an issue for my church and on an individual level as well. If you define ill will and persecution of your/and my denomination as the cost of doing the Lord's work, How does one ever hear legitimate and deserved criticism of your actions? What breaks through that defense when necessary?
I really only love God as much as I love the person I love the least. ~Dorothy Day

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#23 Maxel

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 03:01 PM

This is a real question, and is an issue for my church and on an individual level as well. If you define ill will and persecution of your/and my denomination as the cost of doing the Lord's work, How does one ever hear legitimate and deserved criticism of your actions? What breaks through that defense when necessary?

Fair enough of a question.

Personally, first and foremost I weigh who's doing the criticizing versus what their criticizing. I will readily admit the Church is not perfect. It was not designed to be perfect. However, the Lord leads it and it will reach its destination.

In situations where those criticizing are those who have agendas opposite to the teachings of the Church, I put no stock in their complaints. In my mind, their arguments are weighed in the sphere they are presented in- for example, if a case is brought up that the Church acted unconstitutionally or out of its authority in any way, I would weigh that claim against all the truth of the situation I can find. As of yet, I have never seen the Church be in the wrong in my opinion

In the end, the phase 'when necessary' (at the end of your post) needs to be understood correctly. The Lord does not use earthly institutions to bring about doctrinal or organizational changes to the Church, and he does not suffer men of worldly (and only worldly) learning to dictate the actions and course of the Church. In short, there is never a criticism brought to bear against the Church that is necessary to let 'break through' the defense.
2 Nephi 2:25: Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.
2 Nephi 25:23, 26: For we labor diligently... to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do... And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

#24 tubaloth

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 05:20 PM

I didn't really think people would take the thread in this direction.

Was on Digg and ended up finding this link
Box Turtle Bulletin Mormon Machine Cranking Up Against Illinois Civil Unions Bill
(My filter said this was a Gay site)

it has the full e-mail.

This message has been authorized for sending by Bishop Church.
The Civil Union Bill (HB 2234) has been scheduled for a hearing in the Youth and Family Committee this week on Thursday, March 5, 2009 at 9:00 a.m. in Springfield. If the bill is voted out of committee, it becomes eligible for a vote before the full Illinois House of Representatives. This bill will legalize civil unions in the state of Illinois, and will treat such civil unions with the same legal obligations, responsibilities, protections and benefits as are afforded within marriage. In other words, civil unions will be different in name only from marriage. As has already been seen in Massachusetts, this will empower the public schools to begin teaching this lifestyle to our young children regardless of parental requests otherwise. It will also create grounds for rewriting all social mores; the current push in Massachusetts is to recognize and legalize all transgender rights (An individual in Massachusetts can now change their drivers license to the gender they believe themselves to be, regardless of actual gender, which means that confused men and women are now legally entering one another’s bathrooms and locker rooms. What kind of a safety issue is this for our children?). Furthermore, while the bill legalizes civil unions, it will be used in the courts to show discrimination and will ultimately lead to court mandated same-sex marriages.
To help defeat this bill, please call your state representative and state senator and ask that they support traditional marriage and vote against the civil unions bill. If you are unsure who your legislators are, please see the link at the end of this email.

Also, please take a moment and call the following members of the Youth and Family Committee to encourage them to vote no on this bill. We need 4 votes to keep it from passing out of the committee. And - as always, please pass this on to all who believe in protecting our families and our children. If you are interested in attending the hearing, it will be held on Thursday, March 5th at 9:00 a.m. in Springfield in Room 122B of the Capitol Building (I can give you directions to the Capitol Building if needed).



#25 Hemidakota

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 05:25 PM

Fair enough of a question.

Personally, first and foremost I weigh who's doing the criticizing versus what their criticizing. I will readily admit the Church is not perfect. It was not designed to be perfect. However, the Lord leads it and it will reach its destination.

In situations where those criticizing are those who have agendas opposite to the teachings of the Church, I put no stock in their complaints. In my mind, their arguments are weighed in the sphere they are presented in- for example, if a case is brought up that the Church acted unconstitutionally or out of its authority in any way, I would weigh that claim against all the truth of the situation I can find. As of yet, I have never seen the Church be in the wrong in my opinion

In the end, the phase 'when necessary' (at the end of your post) needs to be understood correctly. The Lord does not use earthly institutions to bring about doctrinal or organizational changes to the Church, and he does not suffer men of worldly (and only worldly) learning to dictate the actions and course of the Church. In short, there is never a criticism brought to bear against the Church that is necessary to let 'break through' the defense.


Tares among the wheat?

#26 Traveler

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 06:01 PM

This is a real question, and is an issue for my church and on an individual level as well. If you define ill will and persecution of your/and my denomination as the cost of doing the Lord's work, How does one ever hear legitimate and deserved criticism of your actions? What breaks through that defense when necessary?


Intelligence, logic, open discussion without anger and name calling, reason, reasonable rhetoric and enough respect to listen to the goals and aspirations of your opposition.

Before we force a change – we should have a good idea why it is necessary. How can society benefit from supporting Prop 8? What differences will such a change have on the basic structure of families? What incentives are there in Prop 8 for the better treatment of children and improvement of family relationships? Does it improve the economy of families? How has society survived without Prop 8? What is to be accomplished with Prop 8 and how will churches and families that believe in marriage as a foundation for families and raising children be treated? Why are proponents bent on destroying their opposition rather than converting them and why do they ignore concerns. Why to proponents of Prop 8 cry foul and heresy if it’s legitimacy is questioned? Why can’t this be discussed with open and free debate without threats, pickets and destruction of property?

The Traveler

#27 Justice

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 07:06 PM

I have learned that people who do not believe there is continuing revelation today have a hard time understanding why we believe the way we do. Man usually achieves learning by observation, experiment, and experience. With this method you can never be certain if you have arrived at truth. You can only be an acceptable percentage certain. To those who believe in revelation, when God speaks through one of His chosen servants it is absolute truth. No popularity poll, vote, or majority opinion will ever change absolute truth. Absolute truth can only come from God. Maybe by understanding this, others can better understand why members of the LDS church can do or vote for things that might seem to take away rights from others.




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