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Claimed petroglyphs in Utah


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#21 Snow

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 10:36 PM

Ok...are you saying both GOD and Christ have a academic degree?


You know perfectly well that I did not say that; I asserted no such thing. You on the other hand stated, as fact, that they didn't. Again, I ask, what is the source of your information or did you just make it up?

We don't need to go into the subject of receiving further guidance with pray or personal revelation Snow. What we think is necessary for us is not necessary for them or those who are foreordained to important callings in mortality. Don't get me wrong, I am proponent of education as Hugh coined it, "...cradle to grave" but calling a person a scholar based on a piece of paper is not true.


That's a red herring. You also know perfectly well that I did not say that a piece of paper made one a scholar. Ainswoth has paper, that doesn't make him a scholar.

I don't recall the Prophet Joseph Smith having any academic certificate on the level of a PhD and I considered his works beyond most of us could reach.


I've never met anyone who claimed that JS was a scholar. An intellectual, yes. Scholar, no.

It doesn't matter if his doctorate was not in ancient religion or history.


It most certainly does. His credentials do not demonstrate that he is a BoM scholar and his hair-brained speculations about Moroni in Utah prove it.
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#22 Hemidakota

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 11:06 PM

You now why the Terrestrial Kingdom is for HONORABLE MEN...or why the plates were not given to such men. In answering your question on whether I made it up or not, it was personal. As I ponder the usage of our education system earlier in my life in becoming a law student, my faith in the educational system was shaken when receiving a different answer in a field of science where it was taught differently in a classroom environment. Then questioning of the Savior's mortal personal eduction and who was teaching Him. You will find the same pattern in Joseph Smith life who was instructing or teaching him. As I found it my own mortal life falling in the same pattern of those of the past. I stop placing importance on academic standings as to what is a scholar or what is not. Last statement, the answer is No! As Justamere10 stated, the original mailer was not all of Jerry's writing. I do believe Moroni may have wondered through Utah though. You could attest of a named prophet who mentioned of Moroni 's blessing location of a temple to be built at a future date. Now, whether we have the proof of such, remains in the hands of a prophet vision or being a receivership of personal revelation. Do we need actual proof of this ever occurring? The answer is really no. It would be interesting to see whether or not there is actually any ties of the wondering of those who escaped the days of the civil wars of the people of Jared or Nephi.

#23 Snow

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 12:37 AM

You now why the Terrestrial Kingdom is for HONORABLE MEN...or why the plates were not given to such men.

In answering your question on whether I made it up or not, it was personal. As I ponder the usage of our education system earlier in my life in becoming a law student, my faith in the educational system was shaken when receiving a different answer in a field of science where it was taught differently in a classroom environment.



Faith in the educational system? That's an odd concept. I don't have any faith in the educational system. It is a matter of utility. To the extent that I derive utility from such, it meets my needs. To the extent that it does not, I seek utility elsewhere. When I discover that something I learned in school is mistaken, I don't loose faith, I merely recognize the lack of utility.

Then questioning of the Savior's mortal personal eduction and who was teaching Him. You will find the same pattern in Joseph Smith life who was instructing or teaching him. As I found it my own mortal life falling in the same pattern of those of the past.


NOW you restrict your opining to Jesus's "mortal" life. That is not the impression you made originally when you also included God (the Father) and his presumably "non-mortal" life.


I stop placing importance on academic standings as to what is a scholar or what is not.


And that's why, partially, people like you buy hair-brained ideas like Moroni in Utah and are impressed by pop speculators like Ainsworth.
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#24 justamere10

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 03:53 AM

And that's why, partially, people like you buy hair-brained ideas like Moroni in Utah and are impressed by pop speculators like Ainsworth.


Brigham Young dedicates site of Manti Temple - LDS.org:

"Brigham Young announced the (Manti) temple site 25 June 1875 and dedicated the site on 25 April 1877. Earlier that same morning, he had taken Warren S. Snow with him to the southeast corner of the temple site and told him, “Here is the spot where the Prophet Moroni stood and dedicated this piece of land for a Temple site, and that is the reason why the location is made here, and we can’t move it from this spot.”

LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Manti Temple



Some references for Moroni also dedicating the St. George Utah Temple site:

"The temple sites credited to Moroni were at St. George, Utah and Manti, Utah. Brigham Young met with the leaders of the Church in St. George, Utah to announce the building of a Temple. David Henry Cannon Jr., a member of the St. George Temple Presidency, was in attendance when President BrighamYoung said of the St. George Temple site,

This spot was dedicated by the Nephites. They could not build it [the Temple] but we can and will build it for them.

Those present at the meeting believed Brigham was referring to Moroni as one of those Nephites who dedicated the site at St. George. President Cannon reported that "many rumors" were circulating that Brigham Young had said that "Moroni, the Nephite-General had actually dedicated the site where the Temple now stands."

Brigham Young's statement that "Nephites" dedicated the site for the St. George Temple is consistent with Warren S. Snow's testimony that Brigham Young said that Moroni, a Nephite had dedicated the site for the Manti Temple...

http://www.elektrote...ns/SCAN0003.txt


"Moroni had the great privilege, as he walked across this American Continent, of finding a place and designating the place where the St. George temple was to be built. He also designated where the Manti Temple was to be. And it’s been written that he designated Kirtland and Nauvoo and probably others. Moroni appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith 22 different times during the life of the Prophet Joseph that we know of." Elder Glenn L Rudd 2003

The Angel Moroni


"The site for the temple at St. George was swampy, but Brigham Young insisted that it be built there because the spot had been dedicated by ancient Book of Mormon prophets (statement by David H. Cannon, Jr., Oct. 14, 1942, quoted in Kirk M. Curtis, "History of the St. George Temple," Master's thesis, Brigham Young University, 1964, pp. 24-25)."

History of Mormon Temples

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#25 rameumptom

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 10:07 AM

Apparently Brigham Young said that Moroni dedicated the site for the St. George, Utah temple, but I don't have the reference in front of me.

The petroglyphs that Jerry talks about are very different than the Anasazi etc. glyphs that are common in southern Utah. Some of the ones Jerry talks about contain a symbol that some people think is Moroni's signature. That signature has been found in I think about 32 known locations in western USA. A ranger in Filmore, Utah has a lot of information on it if anyone cares to go to the ranger station there and ask for him. Go around to the back of the ranger station and you'll see the "Signature Rock" that was brought in from a nearby mountain location, it has a Moroni signature.



The statement is of the Manti Temple, and it is not recorded in any place somewhat reliable (like the JoD). There are some who think that if the quote is correct, it is possible Moroni may have dedicated it after death, as a resurrected being.
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#26 Snow

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 06:59 PM

Brigham Young dedicates site of Manti Temple - LDS.org:

"Brigham Young announced the (Manti) temple site 25 June 1875 and dedicated the site on 25 April 1877. Earlier that same morning, he had taken Warren S. Snow with him to the southeast corner of the temple site and told him, “Here is the spot where the Prophet Moroni stood and dedicated this piece of land for a Temple site, and that is the reason why the location is made here, and we can’t move it from this spot.”

LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Manti Temple



Some references for Moroni also dedicating the St. George Utah Temple site:

"The temple sites credited to Moroni were at St. George, Utah and Manti, Utah. Brigham Young met with the leaders of the Church in St. George, Utah to announce the building of a Temple. David Henry Cannon Jr., a member of the St. George Temple Presidency, was in attendance when President BrighamYoung said of the St. George Temple site,

This spot was dedicated by the Nephites. They could not build it [the Temple] but we can and will build it for them.

Those present at the meeting believed Brigham was referring to Moroni as one of those Nephites who dedicated the site at St. George. President Cannon reported that "many rumors" were circulating that Brigham Young had said that "Moroni, the Nephite-General had actually dedicated the site where the Temple now stands."

Brigham Young's statement that "Nephites" dedicated the site for the St. George Temple is consistent with Warren S. Snow's testimony that Brigham Young said that Moroni, a Nephite had dedicated the site for the Manti Temple...

http://www.elektrote...ns/SCAN0003.txt


"Moroni had the great privilege, as he walked across this American Continent, of finding a place and designating the place where the St. George temple was to be built. He also designated where the Manti Temple was to be. And it’s been written that he designated Kirtland and Nauvoo and probably others. Moroni appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith 22 different times during the life of the Prophet Joseph that we know of." Elder Glenn L Rudd 2003

The Angel Moroni


"The site for the temple at St. George was swampy, but Brigham Young insisted that it be built there because the spot had been dedicated by ancient Book of Mormon prophets (statement by David H. Cannon, Jr., Oct. 14, 1942, quoted in Kirk M. Curtis, "History of the St. George Temple," Master's thesis, Brigham Young University, 1964, pp. 24-25)."

History of Mormon Temples




... which I take as your acknowledgement that Ainsworth is driven purely by speculation and not by the scholarly method and the evidence.
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#27 justamere10

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 07:48 PM

... which I take as your acknowledgement that Ainsworth is driven purely by speculation and not by the scholarly method and the evidence.


I accept that you are not a fan of Jerry Ainsworth and that you apparently have a desire to do what you can to detract from his reputation and the value that his book has had for thousands of readers. Have you perhaps written a book about the MesoAmerican theory of Book of Mormon geography yourself that you would like to recommend to readers of this thread instead of Jerry's??

My guess is that Dr. Ainsworth is just as capable of writing a scholarly discourse on the subject as are those who have done so. But his book "The Lives and Travels of Mormon and Moroni" was intended to be an introduction to Book of Mormon geography for a general (popular) audience. With respect for your right to voice your personal opinions, Jerry's book works well at the popular level regardless of your criticism and that of those whose bandwagon you have apparently hopped upon.

The difference between Ainsworth and many other scholars is that Ainsworth actually gets his hands dirty in the field and generates unique knowledge instead of just criticising the writings of other scholars as so many ivory tower 'scholars' tend to limit themselves to.

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#28 Snow

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 10:52 PM

I don't have any particular problem with Dr. Ainsworth. My issue is more with those who suppose that his speculations are serious scholarship. They are not and they do no interact well with other works of serious scholars and professionals. They may be entertaining or thought-provoking but are not scholarly. That's all.
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#29 Quinda

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 12:02 AM

For those of you participating in the discussion of this thread, there is a website with more information concerning the "Western Message Glyphs" or the "Mystery Glyphs" as we refer to them ...

You can view it here:

Mystery Glyphs - Home

I know Dr. Ainsworth is in support of them possibly being made by Moroni, but there are other theories as well ... one interesting note, if they were made by Moroni then we might actually have a hand print left by him on one of the panels in California ...

Look closely at my avatar image ... it shows the hand print I'm talking about ...

--Quinda

#30 Moksha

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 12:34 AM

Posted Image

Are these strange markings a sign of proof?

:)
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#31 Quinda

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 08:19 AM

Proof of your artistic ability or lack thereof? ^_^ --Quinda

#32 deseretgov

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 05:15 PM

Posted Image

Are these strange markings a sign of proof?

:)


That must be the magical egg that Mormon spoke of in 4 Nephi 2:12

#33 Snow

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 05:32 PM


I know Dr. Ainsworth is in support of them possibly being made by Moroni, but there are other theories as well ... one interesting note, if they were made by Moroni then we might actually have a hand print left by him on one of the panels in California ...

Look closely at my avatar image ... it shows the hand print I'm talking about ...

--Quinda


Think about it - of the millions and millions and millions of people that have been in the area or could have historically been in the area, what are the chances that the markings were made by one particular individual whose existence is not supported by any historical or physical evidence?
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#34 Quinda

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 05:51 PM

Personally I think we may be looking at possibly three different authors, based off of one of the sites in California that has individual hand prints on top of certain symbols ... but it's just my theory ... I can't rule out Moroni as being a potential candiate for one of those authors either though, at least not yet ... Each of the panels do share a common root however, it's fairly straight forward in identifying a set of symbols as belonging to this particular grouping ... and of course the big question is ... exactly who were the authors and why did they leave the symbols etched in stone? --Quinda

#35 Snow

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 10:01 PM


I can't rule out Moroni as being a potential candiate for one of those authors either though, at least not yet ...


So you think it's possible that Moroni might have carved the glyphs. Okay - how do these particular glyphs compare to other known glyphs of Moroni - exactly?
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#36 Quinda

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 10:24 PM

That's a great question ... obviously I have no reference to use as a base line ... much like I have no idea if he actually wrote on the final page of the gold plates or not.

The key here is not so much to find something he authored to compare it to, since as of right now the only thing I can think that would fit that ticket would be the final page of the non-sealed portion of the gold plates.

One thing I'm going on here is it, if an age can be determined for the symbols, then we would have a better idea possibly of who the authors might have been.

As of right now, it would appear to me to have been written by a handful of indivuals who were small in number and most likely nomadic in nature ... assuming of course they date back to pre 1600 ...

There are other theories, of course, as to who might be the author ... everything from some excentric miner to Samuel Clemons ...

The only thing we know for sure is that the current known panels cover the American West with the exception of Oregon and Washington. The oldest known photograph I have of them is from 1925 which was taken for National Geographic, at that time the symbols were covered in thick lichen. The oldest known acknowledgement of any of the panels dates to the mid 1850's ... and that we have six distinct individual hand prints associated to these particular petroglyphs ...

I would definitely like to know more ... and so the search continues ... :) ...

--Quinda

I invite you to join the search ...

Mystery Glyphs - Home

#37 Snow

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 10:36 PM

That's a great question ... obviously I have no reference to use as a base line ... much like I have no idea if he actually wrote on the final page of the gold plates or not.

The key here is not so much to find something he authored to compare it to, since as of right now the only thing I can think that would fit that ticket would be the final page of the non-sealed portion of the gold plates.

One thing I'm going on here is it, if an age can be determined for the symbols, then we would have a better idea possibly of who the authors might have been.

As of right now, it would appear to me to have been written by a handful of indivuals who were small in number and most likely nomadic in nature ... assuming of course they date back to pre 1600 ...

There are other theories, of course, as to who might be the author ... everything from some excentric miner to Samuel Clemons ...

The only thing we know for sure is that the current known panels cover the American West with the exception of Oregon and Washington. The oldest known photograph I have of them is from 1925 which was taken for National Geographic, at that time the symbols were covered in thick lichen. The oldest known acknowledgement of any of the panels dates to the mid 1850's ... and that we have six distinct individual hand prints associated to these particular petroglyphs ...

I would definitely like to know more ... and so the search continues ... :) ...

--Quinda

I invite you to join the search ...

Mystery Glyphs - Home


So let's review:

The glyphs have absolutely zero similarity to other known glyphs done by Moroni.

The only thing known about the date of the glyphs is that some of them seem to be at least 75 to 150 years old.

The evidence that Moroni was ever in the area of the glyphs is zero.


It's more likely that the glyphs were carved by the pre-existent spirit baby of Elvis and Ashley Simpson.
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#38 Quinda

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 10:54 PM

It's more likely that the glyphs were carved by the pre-existent spirit baby of Elvis and Ashley Simpson.


Well now that's a good one I know I've never heard before ... :) ...

In all seriousness, I'm guessing you have a real problem even considering that Moroni could be a possible candidate as being one of the authors of the Mystery Glyphs ...

Well ... if you take into consideration a few things, it might make for a better understanding for why some believe that it could have been Moroni ...

1) Whether you believe in Book of Mormon events occuring in Meso-America or the American Upper Midwest ... the American West would be suitable match for the area Moroni might have wandered in after the destruction of his people ...

2) There are no known written languages of any indigenous personnel that lived in the American West, at least I've never seen anything that you could compare it to, except for the ancient writings of the Ojibwa of the upper American Mid-west ... and those symbols that do match are said to be the writings of the ancient ones who came from across the waters ...

3) So far we have not been able to identify a single modern possibility earlier than 150 years ... and nothing much in he 1500 year range either, they would have t obe at least 1600 years old to have any possibility of having Moroni as one of the authors.

4) Some of the sites are relatively close, if not exact, to places that some believe Moroni may have passed through.

All that being said, those are only potential points of support for one of the authors having been Moroni ... and like I've said before, it could just as easily been anyone from 150 years ago or older ... the six indivdual hand prints are a definite source of who it might have been, the left hand always being the one that was used for the print, so that might just rule out your suggestion that:

It's more likely that the glyphs were carved by the pre-existent spirit baby of Elvis and Ashley Simpson.



^_^



Mystery Glyphs - Home



--Quinda

Edited by Quinda, 24 July 2009 - 10:59 PM.


#39 Snow

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 01:35 AM

Well now that's a good one I know I've never heard before ... :) ...

In all seriousness, I'm guessing you have a real problem even considering that Moroni could be a possible candidate as being one of the authors of the Mystery Glyphs ...

Well ... if you take into consideration a few things, it might make for a better understanding for why some believe that it could have been Moroni ...

1) Whether you believe in Book of Mormon events occuring in Meso-America or the American Upper Midwest ... the American West would be suitable match for the area Moroni might have wandered in after the destruction of his people ...

2) There are no known written languages of any indigenous personnel that lived in the American West, at least I've never seen anything that you could compare it to, except for the ancient writings of the Ojibwa of the upper American Mid-west ... and those symbols that do match are said to be the writings of the ancient ones who came from across the waters ...

3) So far we have not been able to identify a single modern possibility earlier than 150 years ... and nothing much in he 1500 year range either, they would have t obe at least 1600 years old to have any possibility of having Moroni as one of the authors.

4) Some of the sites are relatively close, if not exact, to places that some believe Moroni may have passed through.

All that being said, those are only potential points of support for one of the authors having been Moroni ... and like I've said before, it could just as easily been anyone from 150 years ago or older ... the six indivdual hand prints are a definite source of who it might have been, the left hand always being the one that was used for the print, so that might just rule out your suggestion that:




^_^



Mystery Glyphs - Home



--Quinda


I rule it out because Occam's Razor applies... a figure for whose existence they is zero evidence is the least likely candidate. There are plenty of more likely candidates so there is no need, short of some actual evidence, to jump to such an outlandish wish - that's all it is, a wish, nothing more.
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#40 rameumptom

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 06:24 AM

I'm thinking Moksha's egg is probably as likely to have been made by Moroni as the alabaster egg that Ainsworth has on the site. Personally, I think Ainsworth's theories "ain't worth" much.
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