Snow Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 Brigham Young dedicates site of Manti Temple - LDS.org:"Brigham Young announced the (Manti) temple site 25 June 1875 and dedicated the site on 25 April 1877. Earlier that same morning, he had taken Warren S. Snow with him to the southeast corner of the temple site and told him, “Here is the spot where the Prophet Moroni stood and dedicated this piece of land for a Temple site, and that is the reason why the location is made here, and we can’t move it from this spot.” LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Manti TempleSome references for Moroni also dedicating the St. George Utah Temple site:"The temple sites credited to Moroni were at St. George, Utah and Manti, Utah. Brigham Young met with the leaders of the Church in St. George, Utah to announce the building of a Temple. David Henry Cannon Jr., a member of the St. George Temple Presidency, was in attendance when President BrighamYoung said of the St. George Temple site,This spot was dedicated by the Nephites. They could not build it [the Temple] but we can and will build it for them.Those present at the meeting believed Brigham was referring to Moroni as one of those Nephites who dedicated the site at St. George. President Cannon reported that "many rumors" were circulating that Brigham Young had said that "Moroni, the Nephite-General had actually dedicated the site where the Temple now stands."Brigham Young's statement that "Nephites" dedicated the site for the St. George Temple is consistent with Warren S. Snow's testimony that Brigham Young said that Moroni, a Nephite had dedicated the site for the Manti Temple...http://www.elektroteck.com/bens/SCAN0003.txt"Moroni had the great privilege, as he walked across this American Continent, of finding a place and designating the place where the St. George temple was to be built. He also designated where the Manti Temple was to be. And it’s been written that he designated Kirtland and Nauvoo and probably others. Moroni appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith 22 different times during the life of the Prophet Joseph that we know of." Elder Glenn L Rudd 2003The Angel Moroni"The site for the temple at St. George was swampy, but Brigham Young insisted that it be built there because the spot had been dedicated by ancient Book of Mormon prophets (statement by David H. Cannon, Jr., Oct. 14, 1942, quoted in Kirk M. Curtis, "History of the St. George Temple," Master's thesis, Brigham Young University, 1964, pp. 24-25)." History of Mormon Temples... which I take as your acknowledgement that Ainsworth is driven purely by speculation and not by the scholarly method and the evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamere10 Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 ... which I take as your acknowledgement that Ainsworth is driven purely by speculation and not by the scholarly method and the evidence.I accept that you are not a fan of Jerry Ainsworth and that you apparently have a desire to do what you can to detract from his reputation and the value that his book has had for thousands of readers. Have you perhaps written a book about the MesoAmerican theory of Book of Mormon geography yourself that you would like to recommend to readers of this thread instead of Jerry's?? My guess is that Dr. Ainsworth is just as capable of writing a scholarly discourse on the subject as are those who have done so. But his book "The Lives and Travels of Mormon and Moroni" was intended to be an introduction to Book of Mormon geography for a general (popular) audience. With respect for your right to voice your personal opinions, Jerry's book works well at the popular level regardless of your criticism and that of those whose bandwagon you have apparently hopped upon.The difference between Ainsworth and many other scholars is that Ainsworth actually gets his hands dirty in the field and generates unique knowledge instead of just criticising the writings of other scholars as so many ivory tower 'scholars' tend to limit themselves to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 I don't have any particular problem with Dr. Ainsworth. My issue is more with those who suppose that his speculations are serious scholarship. They are not and they do no interact well with other works of serious scholars and professionals. They may be entertaining or thought-provoking but are not scholarly. That's all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinda Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 For those of you participating in the discussion of this thread, there is a website with more information concerning the "Western Message Glyphs" or the "Mystery Glyphs" as we refer to them ...You can view it here:Mystery Glyphs - HomeI know Dr. Ainsworth is in support of them possibly being made by Moroni, but there are other theories as well ... one interesting note, if they were made by Moroni then we might actually have a hand print left by him on one of the panels in California ...Look closely at my avatar image ... it shows the hand print I'm talking about ...--Quinda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moksha Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 Are these strange markings a sign of proof? :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinda Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 Proof of your artistic ability or lack thereof? --Quinda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deseretgov Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 Are these strange markings a sign of proof? :)That must be the magical egg that Mormon spoke of in 4 Nephi 2:12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 I know Dr. Ainsworth is in support of them possibly being made by Moroni, but there are other theories as well ... one interesting note, if they were made by Moroni then we might actually have a hand print left by him on one of the panels in California ...Look closely at my avatar image ... it shows the hand print I'm talking about ...--QuindaThink about it - of the millions and millions and millions of people that have been in the area or could have historically been in the area, what are the chances that the markings were made by one particular individual whose existence is not supported by any historical or physical evidence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinda Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 Personally I think we may be looking at possibly three different authors, based off of one of the sites in California that has individual hand prints on top of certain symbols ... but it's just my theory ... I can't rule out Moroni as being a potential candiate for one of those authors either though, at least not yet ... Each of the panels do share a common root however, it's fairly straight forward in identifying a set of symbols as belonging to this particular grouping ... and of course the big question is ... exactly who were the authors and why did they leave the symbols etched in stone? --Quinda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 I can't rule out Moroni as being a potential candiate for one of those authors either though, at least not yet ...So you think it's possible that Moroni might have carved the glyphs. Okay - how do these particular glyphs compare to other known glyphs of Moroni - exactly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinda Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 That's a great question ... obviously I have no reference to use as a base line ... much like I have no idea if he actually wrote on the final page of the gold plates or not.The key here is not so much to find something he authored to compare it to, since as of right now the only thing I can think that would fit that ticket would be the final page of the non-sealed portion of the gold plates. One thing I'm going on here is it, if an age can be determined for the symbols, then we would have a better idea possibly of who the authors might have been.As of right now, it would appear to me to have been written by a handful of indivuals who were small in number and most likely nomadic in nature ... assuming of course they date back to pre 1600 ...There are other theories, of course, as to who might be the author ... everything from some excentric miner to Samuel Clemons ...The only thing we know for sure is that the current known panels cover the American West with the exception of Oregon and Washington. The oldest known photograph I have of them is from 1925 which was taken for National Geographic, at that time the symbols were covered in thick lichen. The oldest known acknowledgement of any of the panels dates to the mid 1850's ... and that we have six distinct individual hand prints associated to these particular petroglyphs ...I would definitely like to know more ... and so the search continues ... :) ...--QuindaI invite you to join the search ...Mystery Glyphs - Home Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 That's a great question ... obviously I have no reference to use as a base line ... much like I have no idea if he actually wrote on the final page of the gold plates or not.The key here is not so much to find something he authored to compare it to, since as of right now the only thing I can think that would fit that ticket would be the final page of the non-sealed portion of the gold plates. One thing I'm going on here is it, if an age can be determined for the symbols, then we would have a better idea possibly of who the authors might have been.As of right now, it would appear to me to have been written by a handful of indivuals who were small in number and most likely nomadic in nature ... assuming of course they date back to pre 1600 ...There are other theories, of course, as to who might be the author ... everything from some excentric miner to Samuel Clemons ...The only thing we know for sure is that the current known panels cover the American West with the exception of Oregon and Washington. The oldest known photograph I have of them is from 1925 which was taken for National Geographic, at that time the symbols were covered in thick lichen. The oldest known acknowledgement of any of the panels dates to the mid 1850's ... and that we have six distinct individual hand prints associated to these particular petroglyphs ...I would definitely like to know more ... and so the search continues ... :) ...--QuindaI invite you to join the search ...Mystery Glyphs - HomeSo let's review:The glyphs have absolutely zero similarity to other known glyphs done by Moroni.The only thing known about the date of the glyphs is that some of them seem to be at least 75 to 150 years old.The evidence that Moroni was ever in the area of the glyphs is zero.It's more likely that the glyphs were carved by the pre-existent spirit baby of Elvis and Ashley Simpson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinda Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 (edited) It's more likely that the glyphs were carved by the pre-existent spirit baby of Elvis and Ashley Simpson.Well now that's a good one I know I've never heard before ... :) ...In all seriousness, I'm guessing you have a real problem even considering that Moroni could be a possible candidate as being one of the authors of the Mystery Glyphs ...Well ... if you take into consideration a few things, it might make for a better understanding for why some believe that it could have been Moroni ...1) Whether you believe in Book of Mormon events occuring in Meso-America or the American Upper Midwest ... the American West would be suitable match for the area Moroni might have wandered in after the destruction of his people ...2) There are no known written languages of any indigenous personnel that lived in the American West, at least I've never seen anything that you could compare it to, except for the ancient writings of the Ojibwa of the upper American Mid-west ... and those symbols that do match are said to be the writings of the ancient ones who came from across the waters ...3) So far we have not been able to identify a single modern possibility earlier than 150 years ... and nothing much in he 1500 year range either, they would have t obe at least 1600 years old to have any possibility of having Moroni as one of the authors.4) Some of the sites are relatively close, if not exact, to places that some believe Moroni may have passed through.All that being said, those are only potential points of support for one of the authors having been Moroni ... and like I've said before, it could just as easily been anyone from 150 years ago or older ... the six indivdual hand prints are a definite source of who it might have been, the left hand always being the one that was used for the print, so that might just rule out your suggestion that:It's more likely that the glyphs were carved by the pre-existent spirit baby of Elvis and Ashley Simpson.Mystery Glyphs - Home--Quinda Edited July 25, 2009 by Quinda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 Well now that's a good one I know I've never heard before ... :) ...In all seriousness, I'm guessing you have a real problem even considering that Moroni could be a possible candidate as being one of the authors of the Mystery Glyphs ...Well ... if you take into consideration a few things, it might make for a better understanding for why some believe that it could have been Moroni ...1) Whether you believe in Book of Mormon events occuring in Meso-America or the American Upper Midwest ... the American West would be suitable match for the area Moroni might have wandered in after the destruction of his people ...2) There are no known written languages of any indigenous personnel that lived in the American West, at least I've never seen anything that you could compare it to, except for the ancient writings of the Ojibwa of the upper American Mid-west ... and those symbols that do match are said to be the writings of the ancient ones who came from across the waters ...3) So far we have not been able to identify a single modern possibility earlier than 150 years ... and nothing much in he 1500 year range either, they would have t obe at least 1600 years old to have any possibility of having Moroni as one of the authors.4) Some of the sites are relatively close, if not exact, to places that some believe Moroni may have passed through.All that being said, those are only potential points of support for one of the authors having been Moroni ... and like I've said before, it could just as easily been anyone from 150 years ago or older ... the six indivdual hand prints are a definite source of who it might have been, the left hand always being the one that was used for the print, so that might just rule out your suggestion that:Mystery Glyphs - Home--QuindaI rule it out because Occam's Razor applies... a figure for whose existence they is zero evidence is the least likely candidate. There are plenty of more likely candidates so there is no need, short of some actual evidence, to jump to such an outlandish wish - that's all it is, a wish, nothing more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rameumptom Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 I'm thinking Moksha's egg is probably as likely to have been made by Moroni as the alabaster egg that Ainsworth has on the site. Personally, I think Ainsworth's theories "ain't worth" much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinda Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 (edited) Do you have a link to Ainsworth's site that has the egg?Mystery Glyphs - Home--Quinda Edited July 25, 2009 by Quinda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamere10 Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 Do have a link to Ainsworth's site that has the egg?Mystery Glyphs - Home--Quinda Here's a link to Jerry's primary site but sorry no egg!http://www.mormonsites.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinda Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 Thanks for the reply justamere10 ...Would anyone know of the link to the site referenced in this quote from rameumptom?I'm thinking Moksha's egg is probably as likely to have been made by Moroni as the alabaster egg that Ainsworth has on the site. Personally, I think Ainsworth's theories "ain't worth" much. Mystery Glyphs - Home--Quinda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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