President Obamas Speech Last Nite

[bytor2112]

Alot of the people judging the President have no clue what he is talking about. They just get riled up because of all the bad theories out there.

Well let's look at a few facts:

1. The debt ceiling was just raised to $13 trillion dollars.

2. More people oppose the President now than support him. He has alienated the coalition of independents he put together- they oppose him 2-1 now.

3. His administration has thus far been nothing but missteps and blunders and is the most over reaching government in my lifetime....maybe in US history.

4. The dollar is continuing to weaken, gold is on the rise and this may well mean inflation is on the way.

5. China holds the bulk of US debt and the US continues to print more paper.

6. Unemployment is a 9.7 %, projected to be over 10% all of next year. (real number is likely higher)

I could go on....but I won't. There are plenty of realities out there about the danger and ineptitude of this administration without the conspiracies. Incidentally, if you read the polls, you will see that he also losing support among Democrats. Not a good sign.

[Maxel]

Satan has a silver tongue, too.

[john doe]

I think the President is doing a good job. I do feel that he might be taking on too much too soon, and might need to slow down just a bit and study all avenues before deciding on the right plan. After all we don't want to increase the deficit anymore than we did bailing out the greedy corporations out there. I think people are going overboard with all the conspiracy crap going around. Alot of the people judging the President have no clue what he is talking about. They just get riled up because of all the bad theories out there. The last one I heard was the President was going to declare martial law because of the swine flu and take over the country as a socialist. Come on...are we that ignorant?!

Rich

No, we're not. And if you read these forums a little bit you will find that most of us (with the exception of the obvious random crackpot) are not saying that either. I think you will find that most of the posters here understand the issues more than you realize, we actually have brains, and we think for ourselves. Is that so bad?

[Moksha]

The last one I heard was the President was going to declare martial law because of the swine flu and take over the country as a socialist. Come on...are we that ignorant?!

Rich

Some are pretty gullible. Last fall they passed many goofy rumors around on the ward email list. However, this stuff is called political dynamiting. The threat of health care for all requires renewed drastic measures. That one of calling Obama Satan by saying both have a silver tongue is pretty clever though, since by that criteria, even Cheney in his dungeon crypt with the water boards could not be linked to Satan.

[Guest]

Okay, because I'm feeling like a rich samaritan, I'm going to dole out free advice for Moshka, radioactive, and other amateur political analysts, presidential couch quarterbacks, what-have-you out there...

Anytime you say the words, "greedy corporations", "evil rich", or anything to that effect, might as well just say, "blah blah blah" for all the good that will do to your side of the issue. Because, my dear friends, those words coupled with that glaring chip on your shoulder makes you sound like a 2-year-old begging to be heard in the middle of an adult conversation.

[talisyn]

I will not be snarky I will not be snarky.

Some days it is just so hard!

What I want to know is when did we as a people decide to defend the poor helpless insurance industry over fellow Americans?

[beefche]

Ok, talisyn, let's get rid of those big mean insurance companies. No more auto, life, home, health, disability, or any other insurance. From now on, we all will have to pay for any accidents, death, dismemberment, disability, or whatever else happens in our life. Insurance doesn't do any service to Americans.

[FunkyTown]

Okay, because I'm feeling like a rich samaritan, I'm going to dole out free advice for Moshka, radioactive, and other amateur political analysts, presidential couch quarterbacks, what-have-you out there...

Anytime you say the words, "greedy corporations", "evil rich", or anything to that effect, might as well just say, "blah blah blah" for all the good that will do to your side of the issue. Because, my dear friends, those words coupled with that glaring chip on your shoulder makes you sound like a 2-year-old begging to be heard in the middle of an adult conversation.

And any time you say 'Corrupt politicians', 'greedy politicians' and 'Loony liberals', or anything to that effect, might as well just say, "blah blah blah" for all the good that will do to your side of the issue. Because, my dear friends, those words coupled with that glaring chip on your shoulder makes you sound like a 2-year -old begging to be heard in the middle of an adult conversation.

[talisyn]

Ok, talisyn, let's get rid of those big mean insurance companies. No more auto, life, home, health, disability, or any other insurance. From now on, we all will have to pay for any accidents, death, dismemberment, disability, or whatever else happens in our life. Insurance doesn't do any service to Americans.

hehe

I'm not saying insurance companies are not needed. I do not recall ever saying that. The point I was trying to make (obviously very badly) is that they are more than capable of defending themselves. They are businesses that make a lot of money. They donate a whole lot of money to various politicians their very well-paid consultants and lobbyists say they should. They will be fine, Beefche, I have no fear of that.

[beefche]

hehe

I'm not saying insurance companies are not needed. I do not recall ever saying that. The point I was trying to make (obviously very badly) is that they are more than capable of defending themselves. They are businesses that make a lot of money. They donate a whole lot of money to various politicians their very well-paid consultants and lobbyists say they should. They will be fine, Beefche, I have no fear of that.

Sure they are. But health care is not just about insurance companies. Everything has contributed to the problems with health care in this country--insurance, pharmacutical/medical companies, government, individual's lifestyle/choices, inefficiency, fraud, etc.

I'm for health care reform, but I think we need to look at the whole picture instead of just pointing fingers at insurance companies.

[john doe]

Is it really in the best interests of this country to sink ourselves into a 100 billion/year deficit just to 'give competition' to health insurers? If you can come up with a viable way to achieve a better system in a revenue-neutral way, I'm all ears. In the meantime, this forced 'charity' is not charity or needed.

[Guest]

Here are my point-by-point comments on the speech:

But the problem that plagues the health care system is not just a problem of the uninsured. Those who do have insurance have never had less security and stability than they do today. More and more Americans worry that if you move, lose your job, or change your job, you'll lose your health insurance too. More and more Americans pay their premiums, only to discover that their insurance company has dropped their coverage when they get sick, or won't pay the full cost of care. It happens every day.

Then there's the problem of rising costs. We spend one-and-a-half times more per person on health care than any other country, but we aren't any healthier for it. This is one of the reasons that insurance premiums have gone up three times faster than wages. It's why so many employers – especially small businesses – are forcing their employees to pay more for insurance, or are dropping their coverage entirely. It's why so many aspiring entrepreneurs cannot afford to open a business in the first place, and why American businesses that compete internationally – like our automakers – are at a huge disadvantage. And it's why those of us with health insurance are also paying a hidden and growing tax for those without it – about $1000 per year that pays for somebody else's emergency room and charitable care.

Finally, our health care system is placing an unsustainable burden on taxpayers. When health care costs grow at the rate they have, it puts greater pressure on programs like Medicare and Medicaid. If we do nothing to slow these skyrocketing costs, we will eventually be spending more on Medicare and Medicaid than every other government program combined.

I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY. A great summation of the problem.

Since health care represents one-sixth of our economy, I believe it makes more sense to build on what works and fix what doesn't, rather than try to build an entirely new system from scratch. And that is precisely what those of you in Congress have tried to do over the past several months."

Not true. As evidence by HR3200, the only bill out there that shows the work of Congress, it is not building on what works and fixing what doesn't. Nope. I dare anyone to contradict. But please, before you contradict, make sure you read the bill first, then we'll have something to discuss. I don't like discussing something and all I get back is a parroting of the Rush Limbaugh show or a "he says, she says", or some tidbit from an email chain you just happen to forward along!

But what we have also seen in these last months is the same partisan spectacle that only hardens the disdain many Americans have toward their own government. Instead of honest debate, we have seen scare tactics. Some have dug into unyielding ideological camps that offer no hope of compromise. Too many have used this as an opportunity to score short-term political points, even if it robs the country of our opportunity to solve a long-term challenge. And out of this blizzard of charges and counter-charges, confusion has reigned.

I hate it when my husband and I argue and he resorts to "you're just saying that to make me upset"! And I really hate this paragraph of his speech! Be-littling opposition to partisan spectacle is BAD FORM. Be it Obama or Bush! I said this same exact thing for the Patriot Act when the tables were reversed.

Yes, partisan politics is present. Yes, it is rampant and it is bad. But, the opposition to HR3200 is FAR BEYOND partisan politics. Why do I say that? BECAUSE I'M IN THE MIDST OF THE ARGUMENT. And I don't have a party! So, it insults my opposition to the bill!

First, if you are among the hundreds of millions of Americans who already have health insurance through your job, Medicare, Medicaid, or the VA, nothing in this plan will require you or your employer to change the coverage or the doctor you have. Let me repeat this: nothing in our plan requires you to change what you have.

Correct. But the way it is worded in HR3200 - it means you can't change your insurance even if YOU WANT TO change it.

And insurance companies will be required to cover, with no extra charge, routine checkups and preventive care, like mammograms and colonoscopies – because there's no reason we shouldn't be catching diseases like breast cancer and colon cancer before they get worse. That makes sense, it saves money, and it saves lives.

They already do. At least, Blue Cross and Blue Shielf of Florida does. So, if you just open up inter-state health insurance commerce, anybody who wants these coverages can have them too.

Now, if you're one of the tens of millions of Americans who don't currently have health insurance, the second part of this plan will finally offer you quality, affordable choices. If you lose your job or change your job, you will be able to get coverage. If you strike out on your own and start a small business, you will be able to get coverage. We will do this by creating a new insurance exchange – a marketplace where individuals and small businesses will be able to shop for health insurance at competitive prices. Insurance companies will have an incentive to participate in this exchange because it lets them compete for millions of new customers. As one big group, these customers will have greater leverage to bargain with the insurance companies for better prices and quality coverage. This is how large companies and government employees get affordable insurance. It's how everyone in this Congress gets affordable insurance. And it's time to give every American the same opportunity that we've given ourselves.

I love this part of the speech! I've been wanting this as part of my "reform solution" if they would just make a bill out of my ideas. UNFORTUNATELY, the application of this concept in HR3200 is BAD. My application of this concept is to make insurance groups independent of employers! I want it so that if Miami East Stake wants group insurance (all non-smokers, non-drinkers, following WOW principles) they can buy one as a group! But, instead, HR3200 applies this concept as - they get to have the "GOVERNMENT GROUP". Then the government group - having such a big mandate - can dictate what is covered and what is not - which doesn't help reduce costs! So, what happens is, the insurance companies are going to go broke from having to cover all women with maternity coverage instead of some women opting out of it. I would rather see Miami East Stake saying, I don't really need coverage for Substance Abuse since the chance of any of us needing one is next to nil, so take that out of my insurance and give me a cheaper price. The government doesn't need to be in the middle of this thing.

...we will immediately offer low-cost coverage that will protect you against financial ruin if you become seriously ill...

This is classic out-of-touch politican speak. This is what I told you guys a while back about the politician who said, "I will build you a bridge, and if there's no river to put the bridge over, I will build the river too."

What is this thing about "WE WILL immediately offer..."? Who is WE? So, the government is the insurance provider now! Sorry sir. The government is not THE answer to all of life's questions.

Likewise, businesses will be required to either offer their workers health care, or chip in to help cover the cost of their workers. There will be a hardship waiver for those individuals who still cannot afford coverage, and 95% of all small businesses, because of their size and narrow profit margin, would be exempt from these requirements. But we cannot have large businesses and individuals who can afford coverage game the system by avoiding responsibility to themselves or their employees. Improving our health care system only works if everybody does their part.

Good. He acknowledged the voice of the opposition in this statement. But, this is still not what I believe is the way to go. I like the Romney plan - divorce Employers and Healthcare. One has no stake in the other. Let them go their separate ways! Then all the employer-related problems stated in the opening statement (first quote above) will magically disappear!

Some of people's concerns have grown out of bogus claims spread by those whose only agenda is to kill reform at any cost. The best example is the claim, made not just by radio and cable talk show hosts, but prominent politicians, that we plan to set up panels of bureaucrats with the power to kill off senior citizens. Such a charge would be laughable if it weren't so cynical and irresponsible. It is a lie, plain and simple.

This is when I started not liking the speech. His over-simplification of the issue raised is JUST AS BAD as the fear-mongering of said talk show hosts. This makes me think he doesn't see far beyond his nose. Because, the issue raised is part and parcel of the "law of unintended consequences" that springs directly from HR3200! It is a very valid issue and is worth more than this first-grade Mud Slingfest!

There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false – the reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.

Correct. Yes, I know this is when that senator said, you lie (a moment of insanity that deserves chastisement). But, technically, this is correct.

Unfortunately, he has no plans to divorce employers from healthcare. And, they can't seem to find a way to remove illegal workers from the system. So, this would make illegal workers mandated to be covered by health insurance.

I read on a post above about the Amnesty... that is outside of the scope of Healthcare Reform. There is no relation between the two. None. I don't care what Limbaugh says. (Kool-Aid goes both ways, you know).

So let me set the record straight. My guiding principle is, and always has been, that consumers do better when there is choice and competition. Unfortunately, in 34 states, 75% of the insurance market is controlled by five or fewer companies. In Alabama, almost 90% is controlled by just one company.

...

Now, I have no interest in putting insurance companies out of business. They provide a legitimate service, and employ a lot of our friends and neighbors. I just want to hold them accountable. The insurance reforms that I've already mentioned would do just that. But an additional step we can take to keep insurance companies honest is by making a not-for-profit public option available in the insurance exchange. Let me be clear – it would only be an option for those who don't have insurance. No one would be forced to choose it, and it would not impact those of you who already have insurance. In fact, based on Congressional Budget Office estimates, we believe that less than 5% of Americans would sign up.

Now, I'm really not liking this speech at all... Problem: Not much competition. Solution: let the government provide a not-for-profit public option. WHAT??? This can only come from somebody who has never set foot in the private sector.

Excuse me, how about... Problem: Not much competition. Solution: Open up competition by removing competitive restrictions.

And only 5% of the population will sign up? This would be the moment when somebody should say, YOU LIE. Okay, let's see... right now about 5% of the population receive some kind of welfare. To support these 5%, 16% of what you pay in taxes go to fund welfare. If you're on welfare, good. You're okay. If you're not on welfare, you're on the "paying end" of the system. So now, let's see, nobody is forced to get government-provided health-insurance but there's NOTHING that says you CAN'T. So, how about I get my money's worth out of that 16% that I'm paying on welfare and move myself to the receiving end and JOIN UP???

C'mon government. Grow a brain!

And they'd be right if taxpayers were subsidizing this public insurance option. But they won't be. I have insisted that like any private insurance company, the public insurance option would have to be self-sufficient and rely on the premiums it collects. But by avoiding some of the overhead that gets eaten up at private companies by profits, excessive administrative costs and executive salaries, it could provide a good deal for consumers. It would also keep pressure on private insurers to keep their policies affordable and treat their customers better, the same way public colleges and universities provide additional choice and competition to students without in any way inhibiting a vibrant system of private colleges and universities.

There is this not-for-profit company called Blue Cross and Blue Shielf of Florida. Try it. You might like it. You did say you want to build on what already exists, right???

I love that comparison with Colleges and Universities. Love it! SO, YES, LET'S DO IT LIKE COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES AND LET THE STATES HANDLE THEM!

we will provide you with a choice. And I will make sure that no government bureaucrat or insurance company bureaucrat gets between you and the care that you need.

There's that WE again. Okay, no government buraeaucrat or insurance company bureaucrat... CROCK! Where there's a government - there's a bureaucrat. Proof: Go to any government office to accomplish something. Any of them. Rampant bureaucracy red tape in action. Another proof: Go to the public school next-door. Tell me there's no government bureaucracy putting a BIG BLOCK between your child and their education. I dare you!

Part of the reason I faced a trillion dollar deficit when I walked in the door of the White House is because too many initiatives over the last decade were not paid for – from the Iraq War to tax breaks for the wealthy. I will not make that same mistake with health care.

The speech is out the window. Just like I said in a different post... everytime you use class warfare in a debate might as well say "blah blah blah" for all the good that will do. So, even if it is correct that a lot of the deficits were caused by War expenditures as well as the Stimulus Bill signed by Bush, the soundness of the argument gets washed away by the illigitemacy of class envy.

The only thing this plan would eliminate is the hundreds of billions of dollars in waste and fraud, as well as unwarranted subsidies in Medicare that go to insurance companies – subsidies that do everything to pad their profits and nothing to improve your care.

GREAT!!! LET'S DO THAT! And how about we use those money that we "saved" from waste and abuse to take our money back from China? Wouldn't that be great! America will finally be like PAM - DEBT FREE!

The rest of the speech addressed to seniors is garbage. Nothing but a be-littling of real concerns attributed to scare-tactics of talk show hosts that I already addressed above.

We have long known that some places, like the Intermountain Healthcare in Utah or the Geisinger Health System in rural Pennsylvania, offer high-quality care at costs below average. The commission can help encourage the adoption of these common-sense best practices by doctors and medical professionals throughout the system – everything from reducing hospital infection rates to encouraging better coordination between teams of doctors.

Finally, many in this chamber – particularly on the Republican side of the aisle – have long insisted that reforming our medical malpractice laws can help bring down the cost of health care. I don't believe malpractice reform is a silver bullet, but I have talked to enough doctors to know that defensive medicine may be contributing to unnecessary costs. So I am proposing that we move forward on a range of ideas about how to put patient safety first and let doctors focus on practicing medicine. I know that the Bush Administration considered authorizing demonstration projects in individual states to test these issues. It's a good idea, and I am directing my Secretary of Health and Human Services to move forward on this initiative today.

HEP HEP HURRRAAAYYY!

You see, our predecessors understood that government could not, and should not, solve every problem. They understood that there are instances when the gains in security from government action are not worth the added constraints on our freedom. But they also understood that the danger of too much government is matched by the perils of too little; that without the leavening hand of wise policy, markets can crash, monopolies can stifle competition, and the vulnerable can be exploited

Great rhetoric, Mr. President. Really admirable. PROBLEM IS - GOVERNMENT IS ALREADY TOO BIG. All proposals on the table and in this speech MAKE GOVERNMENT BIGGER. I have yet to see anybody give this speech in relation to actually REDUCING the size of government. Nobody on either side of the aisle is even contemplating on doing it. Sad.

Yep... All these thoughts are worth only... 2 cents. Take it as such.

[Guest]

And any time you say 'Corrupt politicians', 'greedy politicians' and 'Loony liberals', or anything to that effect, might as well just say, "blah blah blah" for all the good that will do to your side of the issue. Because, my dear friends, those words coupled with that glaring chip on your shoulder makes you sound like a 2-year -old begging to be heard in the middle of an adult conversation.

I AGREE 100%. If it was possible to say 150%, I would say so!

[lilered]

Anatess:

Let's discuss the one point of health care. Leave Rush out of the equation. He has no relevance.

e:

Originally Posted by Pres. Obama

There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false – the reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.

Correct. Yes, I know this is when that senator said, you lie (a moment of insanity that deserves chastisement). But, technically, this is correct.

Unfortunately, he has no plans to divorce employers from health-care. And, they can't seem to find a way to remove illegal workers from the system. So, this would make illegal workers mandated to be covered by health insurance.

I read on a post above about the Amnesty... that is outside of the scope of Health-care Reform. There is no relation between the two. None. I don't care what Limbaugh says. (Kool-Aid goes both ways, you know).

I do not share the belief that illegal immigration is outside of the health care issue for the following reasons.

1. If illegal immigrants are included then we are talking about 10M - 11M additional people that will be required under the Bill to have health insurance, who should not be eligible for it at taxpayers expense. Estimated to be approx. 30 Billion Dollars

2. Illegal immigrants or aliens if you prefer are not citizens and therefore should not enjoy the same government benefits as our taxpaying lawful citizens. However there are no penalties included if illegals obtain benefits using illegal means. E.G. Forged Documents,

3. If the Health Care Bill is passed in its present form, then based on Obamas speech the other nite, we as legal citizens and taxpayers heard him say that the bill would not cover Illegal. Therefore our expectation is they are not nor will they be covered. Neither will they be as long as they are illegal.

However, if as part of a great plan to get the Health Care Plan passed and signed into law by our Congress and President, prior to the Amnesty Bill, then it is very conceivable that the next step, prior to the Health Care Bill taking affect (4 yrs. from now) would be to grant all present 10-11M illegal immigrants Amnesty, which then magically makes them eligible for Government Health Care.

4. If the real intent if defiantly they will not receive it under HR 3200, then it should also contain sufficient language to exclude anyone granted citizenship under the Amnesty Bill, who are living in the U.S at present. You and I both know, this will never happen.

5. Under HR 3200 as it stands, everyone in the U.S. is mandated to have some type of health care

insurance. This either private or government option. So, if the 10 M or so illegal immigrants are still here, what happens to them. They by having no insurance provided by their employer, and cannot afford any, must be covered by the government's plan, otherwise they are illegal and can be put in jail (where we can provide for them at taxpayers expense).

6. Unless the Illegal Immigrant issue is addressed now, the HR 3200 bill will never have the support of the majority of the American People. The majority of taxpayers are not in favor of their tax dollars being used to aid illegal immigrants in any manner. I might add, neithe are most in favor of granting them amnesty.

7. Even though Obama indicated they will not be covered, there is nothing written in the HR 3200, that will enforce this should it happen. EG: Proof of Citizenship, legal penalties, deportation.

Edited September 11, 2009 by lilered

[lilered]

Heres is another view point to ponder.

Obama Speech Fact Check

By Conn Carroll

September 10, 2009

Fact checking President Barack Obama’s health care speech from last night, the Associated Press reports: “The president’s speech to Congress contained a variety of oversimplifications and omissions in laying out what he wants to do about health insurance.” That is an understatement. We counted no less than 15 spurious claims made by the President, including:

1. OBAMA: “There are now more than thirty million American citizens who cannot get coverage.”

THE FACTS: On August 8th, President Obama said [1]: “Reform is obviously essential for the 46 million Americans who don’t have health insurance.” So did 16 million uninsured people just disappear in the span of two months? Not quite. The problem is that the 46 million number was always highly misleading and the new 30 million number isn’t much better. According to an analysis based on the 2007 Census data [2] there were 45.7 million uninsured people in the U.S. in 2007. But 9.3 million of those were non-citizens. Another 6.4 million actually are enrolled in Medicaid but mistakenly tell the Census they have no health insurance. Another 4.3 million are eligible for Medicaid or SCHIP but have not signed up. Another 10 million have no insurance, but also make more than 3X the poverty level. That means only 15.6 million U.S. citizens with incomes below 300% of poverty and that are nor already eligible for taxpayer-subsidized health insurance, are uninsured.

2. OBAMA: “First, if you are among the hundreds of millions of Americans who already have health insurance through your job, Medicare, Medicaid, or the VA, nothing in this plan will require you or your employer to change the coverage or the doctor you have. Let me repeat this: nothing in our plan requires you to change what you have.”

THE FACTS: First, the statement is just false. According to the America’s Health Insurance Plans (AHIP) 4.5 million Americans are covered by Health Savings Accounts. H.R. 3200 gives the Secretary of Health and Human Services the authority to make such plans illegal. In both the House Energy and Commerce Committee mark up [3] and the House Ways and Means Committee mark up [4], Republicans offered amendments that would have guaranteed Americans’ right to keep their Health Saving’s account. All of these amendments were defeated by Democrats on their respective committees. These 4.5 million Americans will lose their insurance under Obamacare

Second, Americans should never forget that Obama is a lawyer. Here is how Obama used to issue the same promise [5]: “Under the reform we’re proposing, if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. If you like your health care plan, you can keep your health care plan.” See the difference? Obama used to promise that under his plan “you can keep your doctor.” But now Americans are only promised that nothing in the plan “requires you to change what you have.” This is a night and day difference. Obama is correct that nothing in H.R. 3200 requires people to change their insurance. But H.R. 3200 does allow all businesses to shift their employees into the public plan over time. Under a strong public plan 88.1 million people would be shifted from their employer-sponsored coverage to the federal plan. [6]

3. OBAMA: “And insurance companies will be required to cover, with no extra charge, routine checkups and preventive care … That makes sense, it saves money, and it saves lives.”

THE FACTS: Preventative care does not save money. So says the Congressional Budget Office [7] and so says the New England Journal of Medicine [8].

4. OBAMA: “That’s why under my plan, individuals will be required to carry basic health insurance – just as most states require you to carry auto insurance.”

THE FACTS: No states require all adults, let alone all citizens, to carry auto insurance. Only those who choose to exercise their privilege to drive are required to purchase auto insurance. Even with that requirement, many still don’t. [9] According to the Congressional Budget Office (CBO), a federal individual mandate for health insurance would be unique and unprecedented because it would “impose a duty on individuals as members of society” [10] and would “require people to purchase a specific service that would be heavily regulated” [10] by the government. According to President Barack Obama HHS nominee Dr. Sherry Glied: “Developing a system to promptly identify and penalize scofflaws will take effort and ingenuity, particularly in our diverse and mobile country. It may require a degree of intrusiveness and bureaucracy that some will find unpalatable.” [9]

5. OBAMA: “There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false – the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.”

THE FACTS: H.R. 3200 does not explicitly pay for health benefits for illegal immigrants. It never has, and no one has ever said that it did. The issue is enforcement and the provisions in H.R. 3200 are completely inadequate to ensure that illegal immigrants do not illegally obtain health care through the bill. In the House Ways and Means mark up of H.R. 3200, Rep. Dean Heller (R-NV) introduced an amendment [11] that would use two citizenship status verification systems, the Income and Eligibility Verification System (IEVS) and Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements (SAVE) programs, to establish an individual’s eligibility to obtain the bill’s proposed affordability credits or enroll in the public insurance option. Both programs are currently used to determine citizenship status and eligibility for other public assistance programs. [12] The Heller amendment failed on a straight party-line vote.

6. OBAMA: “And one more misunderstanding I want to clear up – under our plan, no federal dollars will be used to fund abortions, and federal conscience laws will remain in place.”

THE FACTS: In all four mark-ups of health care legislation (three in [4] the [3] House [13] and one [14] in the Senate), Conservatives have offered amendments that would have specifically prohibited federal funds from being used to cover abortion. None of them passed. Instead, the House Energy and Commerce Committee passed an amendment by Rep. Lois Capps (D-CA) that actually requires at least one insurance plan to cover abortion in every geographical region and requires the newly-created public plan to cover all abortion services. [3] Furthermore, President Obama told Planned Parenthood on July17, 2007 [15]: “We’re going to set up a public plan that all persons and all women can access if they don’t have health insurance. It will be a plan that will provide all essential services, including reproductive services.” Candidate Obama either was not telling the truth to Planned Parenthood then or President Obama is not telling the truth to the American people now.

7. OBAMA: “They argue that these private companies can’t fairly compete with the government. And they’d be right if taxpayers were subsidizing this public insurance option. But they won’t be. I have insisted that like any private insurance company, the public insurance option would have to be self-sufficient and rely on the premiums it collects.”

THE FACTS: Obama refutes his own argument in the same paragraph: “It would also keep pressure on private insurers to keep their policies affordable and treat their customers better, the same way public colleges and universities provide additional choice and competition to students without in any way inhibiting a vibrant system of private colleges and universities.” No public university is self-sufficient. None of them rely solely on student tuition. All of them require taxpayer subsidies every year.

8. OBAMA: “I will not sign a plan that adds one dime to our deficits – either now or in the future. Period. And to prove that I’m serious, there will be a provision in this plan that requires us to come forward with more spending cuts if the savings we promised don’t materialize.”

THE FACTS: According to the Congressional Budget Office, not only does H.R. 3200 increase the deficit by $239 billion [16] in just the first ten years, but CBO director Doug Elmendorf told Congress that the bills crafted by House leaders and the Senate health committee “significantly expands the federal responsibility for health care costs.” [16] And according to the Peter G. Peterson Foundation, H.R. 3200 would run a $1,010 billion deficit in the second decade. [17]

9. OBAMA: “Reducing the waste and inefficiency in Medicare and Medicaid will pay for most of this plan.”

THE FACTS: The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates [18] that Title VI of the House bill dealing with Medicare program integrity will save just $1.3 billion over ten years. That is roughly how much Medicare spends in a single day. CBO estimates [18] ZERO savings from Subtitle F in the House bill that deals with Medicaid program integrity.

10. OBAMA: “This reform will charge insurance companies a fee for their most expensive policies, which will encourage them to provide greater value for the money – an idea which has the support of Democratic and Republican experts. And according to these same experts, this modest change could help hold down the cost of health care for all of us in the long-run.”

THE FACTS: These “fees” are nothing more than taxes hidden behind a thin veil of “fairness” rhetoric [19]. They would actually fall on ordinary Americans, not insurance executives or stockholders. When you buy something that is subject to a sales tax who pays the tax – you or the vendor? Just look at the line “sales tax” on your bill. And if you tax insurance companies the cost is passed through in the same way.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

URLs in this post:

[1] said: The White House - Press Office - Weekly Address: President Obama Calls Health Insurance Reform Key to Stronger Economy and Improvement on Status Quo

[2] 2007 Census data: How many uninsured people need additional help from taxpayers?|KeithHennessey.com

[3] House Energy and Commerce Committee mark up: http://blog.heritage.org../2009/08/10/the-house-health-bill-energy-and-commerce-amendments/

[4] House Ways and Means Committee mark up: http://blog.heritage.org../2009/08/03/the-house-health-bill-the-house-ways-and-means-amendments/

[5] used to issue the same promise: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/12/us/politics/12obama.text.html?pagewanted=print

[6] H.R. 3200 does allow all businesses to shift their employees into the public plan over time. Under a strong public plan 88.1 million people would be shifted from their employer-sponsored coverage to the federal plan.: Keep Your Insurance? Not Everyone. | FactCheck.org

[7] Congressional Budget Office: Director’s Blog Blog Archive Prevention and Wellness

[8] New England Journal of Medicine: NEJM -- Does Preventive Care Save Money? Health Economics and the Presidential Candidates

[9] Even with that requirement, many still don’t.: NEJM -- Universal Coverage One Head at a Time -- The Risks and Benefits of Individual Health Insurance Mandates

[10] “impose a duty on individuals as members of society”: Congressional Budget Office - The Budgetary Treatment of an Individual Mandate to Buy Health Insurance

[11] amendment: http://blog.heritage.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/heller-6.pdf

[12] Both programs are currently used to determine citizenship status and eligibility for other public assistance programs.: The House Health Bill: The House Ways and Means Amendments The Foundry

[13] House: http://blog.heritage.org../2009/07/31/the-house-education-and-labor-markup-making-a-bad-bill-worse/

[14] one: http://blog.heritage.org../2009/07/17/the-senate-health-bill-chock-full-of-bad-health-policy/

[15] President Obama told Planned Parenthood on July17, 2007: Abortion: Which Side Is Fabricating? | FactCheck.org

[16] increase the deficit by $239 billion: House Health Plan Is Not Deficit-Neutral The Foundry

[17] H.R. 3200 would run a $1,010 billion deficit in the second decade.: New Study Puts ObamaCare Deficits over $1 Trillion The Foundry

[18] estimates: http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/104xx/doc10464/hr3200.pdf

[19] These “fees” are nothing more than taxes hidden behind a thin veil of “fairness” rhetoric: Kerry's Excise Tax on "Gold-Plated" Health Insurance Policies

[Maxel]

So, the most honest person in that entire meeting was the representative who shouted "You lie!"?

[Moksha]

Sure they are. But health care is not just about insurance companies. Everything has contributed to the problems with health care in this country--insurance, pharmaceutical/medical companies, government, individual's lifestyle/choices, inefficiency, fraud, etc.

Don't forget unnecessary medical tests. Had a friend in the hospital who received seven blood chemistry and CBCs draws during his five stay, even though the reason he was there had nothing to do with those type of tests. The first one should have been sufficient.

[Moksha]

Choosing Words Carefully

Some of the president’s factual claims, while accurate, were notable for his careful wording.

Obama: There are now more than 30 million American citizens who cannot get coverage.

“Citizens” is the operative word here. And even so, the 30 million figure is an understatement. The official Census figure for 2007 was actually 45.7 million persons in the U.S., but that figure includes an estimated 10 million who are not U.S. citizens, including 5.6 million who are here illegally, according to the National Institute for Health Care Management Foundation. That still leaves about 35.7 million U.S. citizens without health coverage in 2007, well above the president’s figure. And hours after the president spoke, Census released new figures for 2008, showing the total number of uninsured went up slightly, to 46.3 million.

If you want to check the facts on speeches in a non-partisan way, tune into the real deal:

Obama’s Health Care Speech | FactCheck.org

:)

[Palerider]

So, the most honest person in that entire meeting was the representative who shouted "You lie!"?

the most honest person in that room???...LOL!!!!!!....that would be like trying to find a needle in a haystack....:eek:

[Maxel]

Something funny I just saw:

Literally seconds before Rep. Joe Wilson yelled out "You Lie!" (and the reaction of righteous indignation from the Dems), Obama called Sarah Palin and "certain talk show hosts" liars- and received a standing ovation.

Double Standard? Hypocrisy? Yes, and yes. Granted the Repubs are no better- but does no one in the news (other than FOX) see the irony? I found out via a blog.

[Palerider]

Only Republicans are liars.....ask any Democrat.....:)

[Guest]

Anatess:

Let's discuss the one point of health care. Leave Rush out of the equation. He has no relevance.

Yep! Let's do that. :) Although, I have to admit, I don't listen to Rush, so I don't really know what he said about it. I just heard some of my friends say, "Rush said...". And then, of course, the Pres. mentioned him and other talk show hosts (albeit, not by name, but we all agree who he was talking about).

I do not share the belief that illegal immigration is outside of the health care issue for the following reasons.

1. If illegal immigrants are included then we are talking about 10M - 11M additional people that will be required under the Bill to have health insurance, who should not be eligible for it at taxpayers expense. Estimated to be approx. 30 Billion Dollars

2. Illegal immigrants or aliens if you prefer are not citizens and therefore should not enjoy the same government benefits as our taxpaying lawful citizens. However there are no penalties included if illegals obtain benefits using illegal means. E.G. Forged Documents,

3. If the Health Care Bill is passed in its present form, then based on Obamas speech the other nite, we as legal citizens and taxpayers heard him say that the bill would not cover Illegal. Therefore our expectation is they are not nor will they be covered. Neither will they be as long as they are illegal.

However, if as part of a great plan to get the Health Care Plan passed and signed into law by our Congress and President, prior to the Amnesty Bill, then it is very conceivable that the next step, prior to the Health Care Bill taking affect (4 yrs. from now) would be to grant all present 10-11M illegal immigrants Amnesty, which then magically makes them eligible for Government Health Care.

4. If the real intent if defiantly they will not receive it under HR 3200, then it should also contain sufficient language to exclude anyone granted citizenship under the Amnesty Bill, who are living in the U.S at present. You and I both know, this will never happen.

5. Under HR 3200 as it stands, everyone in the U.S. is mandated to have some type of health care

insurance. This either private or government option. So, if the 10 M or so illegal immigrants are still here, what happens to them. They by having no insurance provided by their employer, and cannot afford any, must be covered by the government's plan, otherwise they are illegal and can be put in jail (where we can provide for them at taxpayers expense).

6. Unless the Illegal Immigrant issue is addressed now, the HR 3200 bill will never have the support of the majority of the American People. The majority of taxpayers are not in favor of their tax dollars being used to aid illegal immigrants in any manner. I might add, neithe are most in favor of granting them amnesty.

7. Even though Obama indicated they will not be covered, there is nothing written in the HR 3200, that will enforce this should it happen. EG: Proof of Citizenship, legal penalties, deportation.

Lilered, I have to say, you make excellent points. But, the Amnesty issue is completely separate from the Healthcare Issue. The Healthcare Bill should not have to address anything other than to specifically state that it has no provisions for illegal immigrants.

Anything specific that applies to Illegal Immigrants granted Amnesty should be provisioned in the Amnesty Bill, not the Healthcare Bill and voted as such. Because, Amnesty does not just impact healthcare - it also impacts welfare, medicare, medicaid, social security, government grants, education, etc. etc. etc., and they all have to be accounted for.

Although I am opposed to the Healthcare Bill, I am in favor of an Amnesty Bill - not exactly like the McCain-Kennedy bill, but a version of it. Not because I want to reward illegal action, but because I believe it is the most efficient way (if not the only possible way) to flush out the culprits out of their hidy-holes and end the influx of more of them. I can give you a point-by-point discussion on why I think it is a good idea, but it would be hijacking this thread, so if you are interested, I can start a thread or we can just go do it in PMs.

As I'm not a US citizen but a Resident alien (i so don't like that term! It makes me feel like Sigourney Weaver is gonna chase after me with a flame thrower!), I have sufficiently studied the Immigration issue. It took me a looooonnnngggg time with tons of paperwork and qualifications to finally get US entry visa that it makes my blood boil to see people just skate through the chain-link fences!

[lilered]

Anatess: No, it isn't necessary to discuss this further here. I just don't happen to share your view on Health Care and Amnesty are not intertwined. I am very skepticial of Congress at this point and the potential for hidden agendas towards both topics by all involved.

Should you want to discuss the Amnesty Bill as it is presently written on a point by point basis. I would be happy to do it. But whether or it be a seperate or personal thread makes no difference to me.

[lilered]

One good thing that has come out of the Health Care Bill is that ordinary Americans have suddenly became interested in what our Government is doing. Even to the point of writing to their Congress person, talking on talk radio, writing their opinions in local newspapers and attending Town Hall Meetings to express themselves, etc.. This in my opinion is good. We all need to be involved and let our feelings about certain subjects be known to those who are supposed to be our representatives.

I can only hope that this improvement continues in the future and we all don't go back to being couch potatoes, cussing our government, but doing nothing beyond that.

[Palerider]

One good thing that has come out of the Health Care Bill is that ordinary Americans have suddenly became interested in what our Government is doing. Even to the point of writing to their Congress person, talking on talk radio, writing their opinions in local newspapers and attending Town Hall Meetings to express themselves, etc.. This in my opinion is good. We all need to be involved and let our feelings about certain subjects be known to those who are supposed to be our representatives.

I can only hope that this improvement continues in the future and we all don't go back to being couch potatoes, cussing our government, but doing nothing beyond that.

It is amazing what can happen when the people get stirred up.....or when they join an angry mob...:):)