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Hebrew names in the BoM


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#41 thekabalist

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 04:22 AM

thekabalist, a few questions for you:

  • Are you actually a kabbalist? If so, you will likely find precious little overlap between Mormonism and Jewish (or any other type of) mysticism.
  • Are you actually a Jew? If so, I'm amazed that you have come onto an LDS list and provided a bunch of information that just happens to appeal to Latter-day Saints and seems to offer support for LDS doctrines.
  • Are you actually a Latter-day Saint masquerading as a Jewish Kabbalist in order to try to point out areas of commonality between traditional Judaism or ancient Hebrew and LDS beliefs? If so, shame on you for practicing deception. Nothing good can come of such things. Please stop.

In case you happen to be legit and are confused or taken aback by my last point, let me assure you that such things have happened before. I know (slightly) someone who, in a fictional online persona, pretended for several years to be a practicing Baptist minister who had gained a testimony of the Book of Mormon and used it to preach to his congregation. You may not think that someone who believed LDS doctrine to be literally gospel truth would stoop to lies and deception, but you would be wrong.


Hi Vort,
In answer to your questions:

##1##
Yes, I am. However, the mystic explanations are only a portion of the Jewish faith. Kabbalah gets a bad reputation because of Maddonna and the likes. But most of it comes from New-Agey gurus that sugar-coat their cultish practices with Kabbalistic language. Most Chassidic Jews are Kabbalists and yet you would not be able to tell the difference between us and other Orthodox groups in most practices. The difference being that where there is a Biblical event, we study the mystical explanations of it from chassidic sources.

##2##
Yes, I am a Jew. Not a convert but one born to a Jewish mother. I originally subscribed to Christianforums.com where there was a great deal of other Jewish posters. We once had our own subforum back in the times that CF.com was hinting at being more open to other faiths.

The reason I came in contact with the LDS forum was because I had a dream with a Mormon Temple and went there to seek for information. I then found out about some of your beliefs by reading up several of the topics. I was curious to get an explanation for my dreams. Then I saw how many things that Evangelicals were accusing you of being strange had parallels in Judaism. After making friends with some of the LDS that helped me with my dream in return I offered them to help with understanding the Jewish culture that could underlie some of your practices. I've always enjoyed comparative religions as Judaism actually encourages us to study other faiths because. I hope I haven't offended you in my doing so. If I have accept my deepest and most sincere apologies.

When I have some more time I'll post about my dream. Right now I have to leave in five minutes.

##3##
I have never been LDS in my entire life. I know the anonymous aspect of the Internet makes everyone suspicious about who's behind a username. But I give you my word I mean no deception or harm. Especially because I would doubt that an LDS would be able to offer you so much information on Hebrew and on Judaism unless he were indeed Jewish in which case I would have no reason to hide it from you.

Once again if my posts have been offensive in any way please accept my apologies.

b'shalom!

#42 rameumptom

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 06:14 AM

Okay so I'm confused on something. We've noticed how closely the names we know from the Book of Mormon actually fit into the history or fit the person. Were those actually their given names or names that were given during the writing. It just seems so coincidental that they lived up to their given names. Or was it done during a translation somewhere?

Just curious here.

Perhaps Vanhin just answered my question. I'm not sure.



It was a common theme in the Old Testament to give individuals new names along the path of their lives, to manifest significant changes (Abram to Abraham, Jacob to Israel, Lucifer to Satan/Adversary, etc). It is highly likely this occurred with these individuals. It could have happened in their lifetime, OR it could have been done by Mormon to enhance the story.
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#43 rameumptom

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 06:52 AM

thekabalist, You are not the first Jew to discuss such ideas. Harold Bloom wrote about Joseph Smith as the quintessential American prophet, and Mormonism as the American religion. He was amazed at how much Mormonism fit into Jewish and Kabbalistic views.
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#44 Vort

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 08:40 AM

Once again if my posts have been offensive in any way please accept my apologies.


You have not offended at all. Please forgive my suspicions. I did not read Vanhin's post introducing you as someone he invited here, which pretty much explains things.

#45 mnn727

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 09:14 AM

Pam,
It is a very Jewish belief that we are influenced by our spiritual names. Every Jew has a spiritual name aside from their secular one.

Interesting, I was not aware of that -- another parallel with our religions.

Thank you so much for coming here and sharing all of this infomation!!

#46 thekabalist

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 10:27 AM

My understanding was that Aramaic was basically a language that evolved in northern Israel sometime after the fall of the Northern Kingdom to the Assyrians around 700 BC. Given that the Nephites severed their ties with Israel barely a century later, I'd be a little doubtful as to whether the Nephites would be using Aramaic terms. Would be interested to be proven wrong, though. :)


Aramaic has been found to have influenced Hebrew speaking communities for a long time. In Northern Israel where Jesus was established Hebrew and Aramaic were spoken side-by-side with influences to both sides. Almah was quite a common Aramaic (male) name back then.

#47 beefche

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 10:47 AM

thekabalist, do you know much about Jewish culture during the time of the Old Testament or the time of Jesus? There is a BYU professor, Richard Holzaphel (sp?), who was born Jewish and converted to LDS (not sure how old he was). I've heard him speak on several occasions about the culture during that time which helped significantly understand some of the deeper meanings of the New Testament.
I say that we need to teach our people to find their answers in the scriptures...But the unfortunate thing is that so many of us are not reading the scriptures. We do not know what is in them, and therefore we speculate about things that we ought to have found in the scriptures themselves. I think that therein is one of our biggest dangers of today."
--President Harold B. Lee, December, 1972

#48 beefche

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 10:47 AM

We should have a new forum here. Instead of LDS gospel discussion, call it "Ask thekabalist" discussion. :D
I say that we need to teach our people to find their answers in the scriptures...But the unfortunate thing is that so many of us are not reading the scriptures. We do not know what is in them, and therefore we speculate about things that we ought to have found in the scriptures themselves. I think that therein is one of our biggest dangers of today."
--President Harold B. Lee, December, 1972

#49 pam

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 10:54 AM

We should. I seriously find this fascinating.

#50 thekabalist

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 10:58 AM

thekabalist, do you know much about Jewish culture during the time of the Old Testament or the time of Jesus? There is a BYU professor, Richard Holzaphel (sp?), who was born Jewish and converted to LDS (not sure how old he was). I've heard him speak on several occasions about the culture during that time which helped significantly understand some of the deeper meanings of the New Testament.


I wouldn't claim to know as much as your professor but I can humbly try to be of service. :)

#51 rameumptom

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 06:14 AM

I would respectfully disagree with him. It's highly unusual for Israelites to give foreign names to their sons and daughters. Double names yes but exclusively foreign names I doubt. And besides they seem to be very Hebrew in origin.



There were several times in the Bible and in archaeology when Egypt bore strong sway over Israel. Joseph had an Egyptian name, and both Abraham and Jacob sojourned there for years. Solomon married Pharaoh's daughter.

In archaeology, several bullae (clay imprints) of Hezekiah's seals have been found, many with scarab on them. Various Egyptian artifacts have been found at various times in Israel.

In fact, in Lehi's time, Jerusalem was leaning on Egypt to protect them from the Assyrians and Babylonians. Jeremiah was carried off to Egypt by the remaining Jews after Jerusalem's fall to Babylon. There, the Levite priests built a temple at Elephantine.

There was much connection with Egypt over the centuries, and I do not think it hard to believe that Israelites who traded with Egypt or wished to have Egypt's protection and strength wouldn't name children after Egyptians.

We have other examples of that in the Bible and Book of Mormon. The name, Ammon is Semitic, but it also is Egyptian. Amun is the head God of the Egyptians. It is highly likely that the name originally came from Egypt, and taken by the Ammonites and Hebrews when they departed Egypt's captivity (in the time of Moses).

Ammon is a very common name in the Book of Mormon: Ammon, Ammonihah, Laman, Lamoni, Helaman (or the Egyptian "Her-Amun" = In God's Presence), etc.
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#52 thekabalist

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 06:55 AM

Some more I've checked: Irreantum - ירה-אמתםירה - Ireh (He shall see) - Antem (their truth/truthfulness) Sherem - שרם - Sheram (That is exalted) Omni - אמני - Amni - Two possible meanings: "My master" or "My trustworthiness"

#53 thekabalist

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 07:04 AM

There were several times in the Bible and in archaeology when Egypt bore strong sway over Israel. Joseph had an Egyptian name, and both Abraham and Jacob sojourned there for years. Solomon married Pharaoh's daughter.

In archaeology, several bullae (clay imprints) of Hezekiah's seals have been found, many with scarab on them. Various Egyptian artifacts have been found at various times in Israel.

In fact, in Lehi's time, Jerusalem was leaning on Egypt to protect them from the Assyrians and Babylonians. Jeremiah was carried off to Egypt by the remaining Jews after Jerusalem's fall to Babylon. There, the Levite priests built a temple at Elephantine.

There was much connection with Egypt over the centuries, and I do not think it hard to believe that Israelites who traded with Egypt or wished to have Egypt's protection and strength wouldn't name children after Egyptians.

We have other examples of that in the Bible and Book of Mormon. The name, Ammon is Semitic, but it also is Egyptian. Amun is the head God of the Egyptians. It is highly likely that the name originally came from Egypt, and taken by the Ammonites and Hebrews when they departed Egypt's captivity (in the time of Moses).

Ammon is a very common name in the Book of Mormon: Ammon, Ammonihah, Laman, Lamoni, Helaman (or the Egyptian "Her-Amun" = In God's Presence), etc.


I notice now that I haven't explained myself very well. What I mean is that no Israelite would give only a foreign name to their sons and daughters and it would be highly unlikely they would be referred to by such. In the Bible the only times we see such things are during the exile into other countries such as with Hadassah/Esther. Every Israelite is required to have a Hebrew name. It's our spiritual identity and it has been so for ages.

Now all the names you have mentioned seem pretty Semitic to me. I ask myself if one would even have to consider any Egyptian influence at all in the names of the BoM.

As for the name "amun" I doubt it came from Egypt. The term is cognate to the Hebrew "amen" which means "truthful" and is very widely used in Judaism. It's not only a name but a root with several uses. I can see however how a semitic word "amen" would account for the name of the Egyptian god. Perhaps this was known to them as the god of truth?

b'shalom

#54 Vanhin

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 08:44 AM

Some more I've checked:

Irreantum - ירה-אמתםירה - Ireh (He shall see) - Antem (their truth/truthfulness)
Sherem - שרם - Sheram (That is exalted)
Omni - אמני - Amni - Two possible meanings: "My master" or "My trustworthiness"


Good stuff thekabalist. How about the word, "Rameumptom".

Regards,
Vanhin

#55 thekabalist

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 10:07 AM

Good stuff thekabalist. How about the word, "Rameumptom".

Regards,
Vanhin


Wow Vanhin that's a tough one. It looks like a compound term to me. If I were to guess a triple-root word I'd guess this:

רמ - ram - exalted
ומפ - u'mef - and leading
תם - faultless/complete

If this is a triple-root word, it could mean something like "that which is faultless and exalted to lead". But I'm guessing a little context could be of help here. Is this a military or government title of some kind?

#56 Vort

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 10:21 AM

Good stuff thekabalist. How about the word, "Rameumptom".


The term "rameumptom" was used by Nephites separatists who called themselves "Zoramites", named for their leader, Zoram. The original Zoram in the Book of Mormon was the (Jewish) servant of Laban who escaped Jerusalem and joined Lehi's group. I would be unsurprised to learn that many or most of these Zoramites were of largely non-Nephite descent. They may have originated primarily from the "Mulekites", whose Hebrew language had become "corrupted" (which in context appears to mean "it wasn't Hebrew any more"). Thus, the term "rameumptom" may very likely have had a completely non-Hebrew origin.

Edited by Vort, 19 November 2009 - 11:35 AM.


#57 Vanhin

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 12:31 PM

Wow Vanhin that's a tough one. It looks like a compound term to me. If I were to guess a triple-root word I'd guess this:

רמ - ram - exalted
ומפ - u'mef - and leading
תם - faultless/complete

If this is a triple-root word, it could mean something like "that which is faultless and exalted to lead". But I'm guessing a little context could be of help here. Is this a military or government title of some kind?


That's pretty good. Here it is in context:

8 Now the Zoramites were dissenters from the Nephites; therefore they had had the word of God preached unto them.

9 But they had fallen into great errors, for they would not observe to keep the commandments of God, and his statutes, according to the law of Moses.

10 Neither would they observe the performances of the church, to continue in prayer and supplication to God daily, that they might not enter into temptation.

11 Yea, in fine, they did pervert the ways of the Lord in very many instances; therefore, for this cause, Alma and his brethren went into the land to preach the word unto them.

12 Now, when they had come into the land, behold, to their astonishment they found that the Zoramites had built synagogues, and that they did gather themselves together on one day of the week, which day they did call the day of the Lord; and they did worship after a manner which Alma and his brethren had never beheld;

13 For they had a place built up in the center of their synagogue, a place for standing, which was high above the head; and the top thereof would only admit one person.

14 Therefore, whosoever desired to worship must go forth and stand upon the top thereof, and stretch forth his hands towards heaven, and cry with a loud voice, saying:

15 Holy, holy God; we believe that thou art God, and we believe that thou art holy, and that thou wast a spirit, and that thou art a spirit, and that thou wilt be a spirit forever.

16 Holy God, we believe that thou hast separated us from our brethren; and we do not believe in the tradition of our brethren, which was handed down to them by the childishness of their fathers; but we believe that thou hast elected us to be thy holy children; and also thou hast made it known unto us that there shall be no Christ.

17 But thou art the same yesterday, today, and forever; and thou hast elected us that we shall be saved, whilst all around us are elected to be cast by thy wrath down to hell; for the which holiness, O God, we thank thee; and we also thank thee that thou hast elected us, that we may not be led away after the foolish traditions of our brethren, which doth bind them down to a belief of Christ, which doth lead their hearts to wander far from thee, our God.

18 And again we thank thee, O God, that we are a chosen and a holy people. Amen.
(Alma 31:8-18)


Regards,
Vanhin

#58 Dravin

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 12:32 PM


רמ - ram - exalted
ומפ - u'mef - and leading
תם - faultless/complete

If this is a triple-root word, it could mean something like "that which is faultless and exalted to lead". But I'm guessing a little context could be of help here. Is this a military or government title of some kind?


A raised stand or pulpit of some sort. Alma 31 Verse 21 contains the actual word (and Mormon's interpretation) but the preceding verses give it some additional context, mainly in its purpose.
Hindsight is all well and good... until you trip.

#59 thekabalist

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 01:08 PM

Very interesting Vanhin and Dravin. It does shed some interesting light.

#60 rameumptom

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Posted 20 November 2009 - 10:00 AM

The term "rameumptom" was used by Nephites separatists who called themselves "Zoramites", named for their leader, Zoram. The original Zoram in the Book of Mormon was the (Jewish) servant of Laban who escaped Jerusalem and joined Lehi's group. I would be unsurprised to learn that many or most of these Zoramites were of largely non-Nephite descent. They may have originated primarily from the "Mulekites", whose Hebrew language had become "corrupted" (which in context appears to mean "it wasn't Hebrew any more"). Thus, the term "rameumptom" may very likely have had a completely non-Hebrew origin.



Are we certain that Zoram was a Jewish servant? He could easily have been a servant from another land or people. This would make Nephi freeing him seem all the more appealing. And the term Rameumptom is not necessarily Hebrew, as Mormon has to interpret its meaning for his readers - obviously it wasn't in the tongue he was accustomed to. BTW, Mormon states that it means "holy stand."
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