Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

predestination vs foreordination ?


  • Please log in to reply
13 replies to this topic

#1 lizzy12

lizzy12

    Senior Member

  • Inactive with Posts
  • 340 posts

Posted 09 June 2010 - 01:01 PM

Whats the diffrence?

#2 InquisitiveSoul

InquisitiveSoul

    Senior Member

  • Inactive 2+ Years
  • 120 posts

Posted 09 June 2010 - 01:04 PM

The simple answer: Foreordination = Agency Predestination = No Agency

#3 Dravin

Dravin

    Gneiss Guy

  • Members
  • 13092 posts
  • LocationIndiana

Posted 09 June 2010 - 02:12 PM

Slightly more expanded answer: Foreordination: One is ordained or called to something. One may still decline, either willfully or through one's actions. For instance if President Hinckley had at the age of 21 left the Church and never came back even though he was foreordained to be a prophet he wouldn't have been one. Likewise if Moses had for whatever reason told God, "No, I am not going to lead your people." he wouldn't have been a prophet even though he was foreordained. Predestination: One is ordained or called to something and you will be that no matter what you want or might otherwise choose. So if President Hinckley had left the Church or if Moses had said no God would have forced their hand such that they would become so regardless of any actions they chose.

Edited by Dravin, 09 June 2010 - 02:39 PM.

Hindsight is all well and good... until you trip.

#4 Moksha

Moksha

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 9321 posts

Posted 09 June 2010 - 02:43 PM

With just simple dictionary type definitions, preordination and foreordination are synonymous in that they imply action, knowledge or state of being in advance. However, this equal sign stuff is fun. Preordination = Calvinist thought Foreordination = LDS thought
Jesus said, "The first in importance is, love the Lord God.'
And here is the second: 'Love others as well as you love yourself.'
There is no other commandment that ranks with these."


Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace


#5 Hemidakota

Hemidakota

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 15447 posts

Posted 09 June 2010 - 02:44 PM

Adding to the previous post, Ron done some excellent teaching on this subject at 'CES', concerning this topic that may be some interest for you;

Here is the link: http://ce.byu.edu/ed...ll_Handouts.pdf

#6 ronism99403

ronism99403

    Member

  • Inactive with Posts
  • PipPipPip
  • 68 posts

Posted 09 June 2010 - 02:47 PM

Predestination emphasizes the sovereignty of God over free will. Those within the Reformed tradition of Christianity would insist that we have free will, but because we are born sinners, we will only ever choose sin over God (total depravity). We are saved by God's undeserved intervention in our lives (unmerited favor). Those of us who are saved were irresistibly drawn to God by the Holy Spirit (irresistible grace). Only those who God has predestined to be saved will be saved and the rest will be deservedly damned (limited atonement). Moses had no choice. He was predestined to be a prophet before the foundation of the world and could not resist the Spirit's call. He would never be able to not choose God because God had chosen him (perseverance of the saints). Esau chose his sin because he was born a sinner, and would always be a sinner because God chose not to save him.

#7 Hemidakota

Hemidakota

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 15447 posts

Posted 09 June 2010 - 02:47 PM

With just simple dictionary type definitions, preordination and foreordination are synonymous in that they imply action, knowledge or state of being in advance. However, this equal sign stuff is fun.

Preordination = Calvinist thought

Foreordination = LDS thought


Reminds of Elder Legrand Richards thought concerning Calvin injection of the usage of the term;

One of the much-misunderstood teachings of the holy scriptures is the principle of predestination, as taught by Calvin, one of the early reformers. Had he understood the principle of preexistence, that we all lived in the spirit world before we were born here upon the earth, it would have enabled him to understand how men could be foreordained, called, and chosen before they were born to do certain work upon the earth without being predestined. He would also have understood how, because of the Lord's acquaintance with the spirits of all his children, he could know in advance what they would do under given circumstances and conditions, even as earthly parents may know largely how their own children will react to given experiences.

But the holy scripture does not sustain the extreme stand taken by many of that thought: (1) that some are predestined to eternal life and that regardless of what they do, they will achieve it, while others are predestined to eternal damnation, and if so predestined, there is nothing they can do about it; (2) that every act of our lives is predetermined before we are born, and we cannot deviate therefrom; and (3) that whatever happens to us in life is the will of the Lord.

Such a belief would hold the Lord responsible for all the wickedness, disobedience, and unrighteousness in the world. If man is without free agency and choice, then God, who created man, must have done the choosing, and hence he and not man is responsible for the life of man.

The explanation usually given is that all men are born subjects of eternal damnation, but that by the principle of grace, those whom the Lord elects to predestine may obtain salvation—none others. This view is usually called fatalism. 'Marvelous Work and a Wonder' by LeGrand Richards



#8 Moksha

Moksha

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 9321 posts

Posted 09 June 2010 - 03:03 PM

Seems to me that the Universe injected with massive free choice would have trouble in having pre or fore ordination in any events not concerning Celestial mechanics and the forces of nature. Any and all sentient behavior would not fit the requisite criteria for actions or knowledge in advance model, because these actions are in a state of continuous flux due to free will. This would be complicated because of the complexity of human interaction, where the action or inaction of one influences a multiple choice course of actions in others. Statistically speaking (do we know any statisticians?) the permutations for possible alternate futures would need to be computed using logarithms.
Jesus said, "The first in importance is, love the Lord God.'
And here is the second: 'Love others as well as you love yourself.'
There is no other commandment that ranks with these."


Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace


#9 Hemidakota

Hemidakota

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 15447 posts

Posted 09 June 2010 - 03:27 PM

Perhaps, this is why we have angels assigned to various aspect of this world, including usage of the all seeing eye glass, the Urim and Thummim, ensuring human agency doesn’t drive the ‘Plan of Salvation’ to far off course.

#10 Blackmarch

Blackmarch

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3654 posts

Posted 10 June 2010 - 06:59 AM

The simple answer:

Foreordination = Agency

Predestination = No Agency

^^^^ What inquisitive soul said.

in more words;

Foreordination is somewhat like being called to a position, whereas predestination means that God has already set your actions in stone (and hence your subsequent slavation or lack there of because of your actions), and choice is but an illusion.

#11 Hemidakota

Hemidakota

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 15447 posts

Posted 10 June 2010 - 07:23 AM

Curious though, was Lucifer created for this role or just 'fell-into' this role?

#12 Blackmarch

Blackmarch

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3654 posts

Posted 10 June 2010 - 07:25 AM

Curious though, was Lucifer created for this role or just 'fell-into' this role?

Was he created to be a temptor of souls?
No


I just think God knows how to best use each situation.

#13 TheAngelPalmoni

TheAngelPalmoni

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 274 posts

Posted 13 June 2010 - 09:18 AM

Christ and Satan are Predestined... everyone else is replaceable.

#14 Justice

Justice

    Senior Member

  • Inactive 1+ year
  • 3584 posts

Posted 13 June 2010 - 10:50 AM

Take some time and digest the beginning of Alma 13:

1 And again, my brethren, I would cite your minds forward to the time when the Lord God gave these commandments unto his children; and I would that ye should remember that the Lord God ordained priests, after his holy order, which was after the order of his Son, to teach these things unto the people.
2 And those priests were ordained after the order of his Son, in a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption.
3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.
4 And thus they have been called to this holy calling on account of their faith, while others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and blindness of their minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great privilege as their brethren.
5 Or in fine, in the first place they were on the same standing with their brethren; thus this holy calling being prepared from the foundation of the world for such as would not harden their hearts, being in and through the atonement of the Only Begotten Son, who was prepared—
6 And thus being called by this holy calling, and ordained unto the high priesthood of the holy order of God, to teach his commandments unto the children of men, that they also might enter into his arest—
7 This high priesthood being after the order of his Son, which order was from the foundation of the world; or in other words, being without beginning of days or end of years, being prepared from eternity to all eternity, according to his foreknowledge of all things—
8 Now they were ordained after this manner—being called with a holy calling, and ordained with a holy ordinance, and taking upon them the high priesthood of the holy order, which calling, and ordinance, and high priesthood, is without beginning or end—
9 Thus they become high priests forever, after the order of the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, who is without beginning of days or end of years, who is full of grace, equity, and truth. And thus it is. Amen.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

IPB Skin By Virteq