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#1 Fiannan

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 01:46 AM

So what are people's opinions on corporal punishment (for kids)? Does anyone have any LDS Church statements on this subject?
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud, General Introduction to Psychoanalysis

#2 prisonchaplain

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 03:06 AM

So what are people's opinions on corporal punishment (for kids)? Does anyone have any LDS Church statements on this subject?
[/b]


Spanking should remain legal, and can be effective, when used rarely. In 95% of discipline situations, spanking is unnecessary, and can be counter-productive. The "spare the rod spoil the child" proverb speaks more to parents taking the time and energy to control their children, than it does specifically to wacking the child.

On the other hand, on those rare occasions when rebellion is obvious, testing is evident, and reason has failed to produce repentence or change, then the spanking can be effective. It must be done in love, not anger, in righteous discipline, not frustration.

The wise child will figure out that s/he truly has hurt the parent more than the parent has hurt him/her.

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." -- Lord Acton


#3 shanstress70

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 05:48 AM

So what are people's opinions on corporal punishment (for kids)? [/b]


I think corporal punishment is wrong. However, I respect a parent's right to raise their children the way they see fit, to some extent. But we all have to do what we think is right, as long as it doesn't cross the line to abuse.

My child was a handful as soon as he could walk, and has always been a challenge. But I made a committment to not go what I feel is the easy route and spank. So far, there have been times that it was tough not to, but my child has never been spanked. And guess what? He's an extremely kind and caring child, who listens as well as any 3 yr old. Sure, he still tests me, but he knows there will be consequences of some type for any bad behavior.

IMO, spanking teaches a child that you solve things by hitting. That is the message that a child gets. They don't have the ability to think through it and reason. This is the logic they see. Guess what they are going to do when they are having a problem sharing a toy with another child?

Yes, it is more difficult and takes more creativity, but it can be done. Some techniques that we have used are time-outs (we put him in his room, although some use a chair for the child to sit it, for one minute per year); taking away favorite toys for certain behaviors; but the most effective technique of all is lots of positive comments when he makes the right choice.

This all brings me back to my other point in the first part of my post... "as long as it doesn't cross the line to abuse". There is a fine line here between spanking and abuse. Why even get close to it? Also, the times you will be spanking, you will probably be angry anyway. No one thinks too clearly when we're angry.

Also, in all the parenting books I've read, and pediatricians I've talked to, I have yet to hear the advice that you should spank your child.

#4 mom_of_jcchlsm

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 07:23 AM

Hubby and I disagreed on this when our oldest kids were young. He believed in spanking and I did not. We ended up spanking our oldest three kids. But found it like a drug -- it took more and more force to achieve the same effect over time. Each child responded differently, though. Our oldest learned to avoid getting in trouble (sometimes by obedience and other times by being manipulative, deceitful, or by not getting caught). Our second child was almost panicked over being spanked -- just the mention of a spanking would bring immediate submission (I always felt that was wrong). Our third child is fiercely independent and spankings became a battle ground -- he was willing to endure whatever we dished out; he just decided that most of the things he wanted to do were worth the spanking he would get for it, so he'd just do it, take the punishment, and continue on his merry way. Spanking was no deterrant, and it wasn't working as a corrective measure. By the time our fourth child was two, we had stopped spanking the older kids, so she was never really spanked. Numbers 5 and 6 have never been spanked and number 7 won't be, either. Now, I do occasionally slap the back of a hand that is reaching for something it ought not. And I do physically remove a child from the room if needed (pick them up kicking and screaming or just hold the wrist tightly and lead them away). But the primary tools we use are positive reenforcement (praising when they do something right, occasionally giving rewards or offereing carrots) and loss of privileges (computer, phone, a particular toy, choice of clothing to wear -- whatever fits the crime or whatever affects that child the most). It takes a lot more work to think up and enforce appropriate corrective measures than to reach out and spank the child. I think we're doing the right thing now. But raising kids is sure hard work!
Happy & Busy Mom of one basketball player, one artist, one soccer player, one ballerina, one horse lover, one sweet toddler & one handsome baby

#5 shanstress70

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 07:57 AM

Oh, one other thing that we've started doing lately that is proving to be very successful... If I tell my child to do something (for example, go wash his hands for dinner), and he says no, I offer choices. For example, "You can either go wash your hands like a big boy right now on your own, or I can come and carry you and wash them for you." Once in a while, I end up carrying a screaming, writhing child... but most of the time he chooses the right thing because he so loves his independence! Then I pour on the praise for him making the right choice. I've learned a lot of this by his preschool teacher. She is so awesome with kids. Her husband is a child psychologist and they have two small children, so they know all the tricks.

#6 mom_of_jcchlsm

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 09:13 AM

choices work great. we also explain in advance what the likely consequences of certain actions will be or ask them to tell us what they think will happen if they follow a certain course (we do this for both good and bad choices). just this morning, my 12-yo came out wearing her older sister's shirt. Older sister is long gone (she goes straight to school from seminary). I asked "are you green to wear that shirt?" ("green" as in green light) and she said "she's let me borrow it before . . ." I simply said "You know your sister pretty well. Think things through from her point of view." 12-yo walks heads off to the bathroom to do her hair. She wore that shirt for almost a half an hour before thinking better of it. She was the last child I dropped off this morning for school. When we were alone (well, with the baby and toddler), I asked "what made you change your mind about the shirt?" She mumbled something about how that shirt kinda itches and the color is wrong. Totally ignoring her evasion, I said something like "well, I think you made a good choice. I'm thankful that I don't have to listen to you two arguing this afternoon over the shirt. Relationships are more important than things. Besides, you'll have a chance to ask her tonight if you want to borrow it tomorrow." So we'll see if she's wearing it tomorrow. Bet not (just to prove Mom wrong), but I also bet she will wear it in the near future (hopefully with permission!).
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#7 Cal

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 05:21 PM

Spanking is wrong on several levels. First, it doesn't work. Second, it teaches one thing: When you are frustrated with the behavior of another, physical agression is appropriate. Is that really the lesson we want the child to learn? I know the first to be true, because, I tried it. Very ineffective. Bottom line: kids that get hit, learn to hit, not how to behave. Kids only learn how to behave by seeing adults they respect behave well, and by feeling secure in their relationships with those adults. Spanking is just a euphamism for physical agression or hitting. Just because the Bible condones it doesn't make it right or true. After all, the Bible also condones slavery, capital punishment and a bunch of other uncivilized behaviors.

#8 Palerider

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 06:42 AM

Hardly ever spanked our kids...they did know it was an option...we always looked for other ways to punish them...my wife and I discovered that when we grounded them ....that was more punishment for Mom than anyone else....we then just started taking privelages away such as.....no computer or video games or cd's and if they were driving they could not drive. They would also loose tv rights.....at first they would ask us what are suppose to do....we told them they could sit in the living room and look out the window and or read a book or magazine....this worked out good for us......just my opinion....
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#9 Heather

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 11:56 AM

I'm a huge fan of love and logic. I never want to spank our kids. This is the points from Jim Fay (Love and Logic writer)

For the record, our present stance on spanking is:

1. There is no need for spanking.

2. Spanking is counterproductive. It makes the adult into the "bad guy" instead of the bad decision becoming the culprit.

3. Love and Logic techniques are far more powerful than spanking.

4. Most kids would much rather have a spanking than have their parents use Love and Logic techniques such as delaying the consequence while the parent thinks over the problem, develops a clear head and then locks in the empathy before telling the child what the consequence will be.

5. Since we now have such better techniques, why even consider, or waste our time with, spanking?

6. A considerable amount of solid research is now available indicating the harmful, counterproductive results of using spanking as a disciplinary tool.[/b]


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#10 Palerider

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 01:19 PM

President Hinckley also teaches....we are suppose to Teach our kids......find his talk on that and read it....its great
As Long As I Am Here......It Doesn't Matter Where Here Is.....

Governments tend not to solve problems, only to rearrange them....Ronald Reagan

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#11 Fiannan

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 03:21 PM

Any quotes from LDS authorities on the matter? My wife is totally against spanking while I am in favor of it being an option in limited circumstances. I believe the Church has the position more in line with use it sparingly, while my wife believes the Church is totally against it. So does anyone have some light to shed?
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud, General Introduction to Psychoanalysis

#12 StrawberryFields

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 04:29 PM

We never really believed in spanking as punishment. Occasionally I think there may have been a swat or two as an attention getter when they were in danger like touching the stove. We used time outs as a form of punishment and loss of privilege as they got older. I have also learned to think about why children are misbehaving. Sometimes they just want a parents attention and negative attention is better then no attention at all. I also learned that sometimes my boys would fight right in front of me and if I told them to take it out on the lawn...that I didn't want blood on MY carpets the battle would end. When they were really young and I would see them fight I would stop what ever I was doing and run and hide. Pretty soon we would all be laughing and the fight was over as they came looking for their strange mom. Sometimes I would make them sing silly songs that I had made up to fit the "crime". Sometimes I would make them stand on one leg for a few minutes just to break the pattern. It would most likely be done two at a time and they would laugh at each other. :lol: I have learned that overall CBG method works very well for everyone in our family. CBG stands for Caught Being Good. :D
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#13 Ray

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 04:44 PM

I don’t think we should spank children because they’re too young to enjoy it. Ba da bump. But seriously. I once spanked a child who did seem to enjoy it, because he kept asking for more. Ba da bump. Seriously though. I get no respect. No respect I tell you. Why, when I was a child, I’d had to wait my turn in a corner before getting a spanking. And not a very good one at that. But after I talked to my parents, we got it all worked out.

#14 StrawberryFields

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 04:54 PM

I don’t think we should spank children because they’re too young to enjoy it.

Ba da bump.

But seriously.

I once spanked a child who did seem to enjoy it, because he kept asking for more.

Ba da bump.

Seriously though. I get no respect. No respect I tell you.

Why, when I was a child, I’d had to wait my turn in a corner before getting a spanking.

And not a very good one at that.

But after I talked to my parents, we got it all worked out.
[/b]


ARE YOU SERIOUS!!! :ahhh:

Who stole our ole buddy Ray? This has got to be an imposter!!! :lol:
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#15 Ray

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 05:01 PM

[quote]
<div class='quotemain'>
I don’t think we should spank children because they’re too young to enjoy it.

Ba da bump.

But seriously.

I once spanked a child who did seem to enjoy it, because he kept asking for more.

Ba da bump.

Seriously though. I get no respect. No respect I tell you.

Why, when I was a child, I’d had to wait my turn in a corner before getting a spanking.

And not a very good one at that.

But after I talked to my parents, we got it all worked out.
[/b][/quote]

ARE YOU SERIOUS!!! :ahhh:

Who stole our ole buddy Ray? This has got to be an imposter!!! :lol:
[/b][/quote]
Heh, no, I wasn't serious. I was trying to be funny. :)

And btw, I will dedicate the above to Rodney, even though I wasn't quoting him, as far as I know.

#16 Traveler

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 05:59 PM

At any level of justice one must recognize that both positive and negative reinforcement (incentives) need to be employed. For all that I have read and experienced I am not convinced that spanking is either effective or unless. I think that one can justify what-ever their course. For the most part I do not think that parents are that much worse at being parents than children are at being children – that is with some exceptions. There are other issues that I think are more important or that I did wrong with my children. 1.Using chores as punishment. 2. Planning for them to have more leisure time than chores. 3. Putting them on the spot to lie when the truth would be difficult. 4. Not knowing the difference between teaching and training of children and not knowing when or which to employ. 5. Thinking that as parents you are the only influence in their lives that will (or can) really make a difference. 6. Attempting to spare them from “foolish” dreams that are likely beyond their reach. (Being the one to tell them they do not have what it takes to succeed at some given task – even if they don’t.) 7. Trying to make anything better for them without their knowing or participation. 8. Not making sure they know and understand what love is by your example. Personally I think that any of the above can be more damaging to children than a spanking that is underserved or abusive. Do not take me wrong and think I condone abusing children with harsh physical punishments; extreams and excesses are always a problem – It is just that I think that so many parents think they are better than some other parents just because they do not spank or physically push their children and then to 50 other things that harm their children in other ways. Spanking or not spanking is not the worse problem parents must face in raising children. I am personally concerned with the parent that think that it is. The Traveler

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#17 oaf1984

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 07:21 PM

As I child I prefered spanking to other forms of punishment. Simply because spanking was quick. It sucked when I got spanked AND given chores to do though. I think that spanking is ok in rare circumstances with certain children. When I mean rare, I really mean it, like a handfull of times in a childhood. ex. If I child gets so wound up that he/she cannot properly communicate or receive communication, and is being excessively violent to the point where they are a danger to themselves. They might need a spanking. I feel in times like these a good swat, not overly hard, can shock them into reality. Obviously, this will not always work and depends on the child. Again, if it is not rare, then they get used to it, and it is less effective.

#18 Heather

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 10:33 PM

I grew up being spanked, and I know all it did was cause me to be afraid of my dad and I would lie/hide things from him. When I did something wrong, I would resent him for the punishment, instead of blaming myself for my actions. I think if you use corporal punishment with a child who is being violent, it sends the message that hitting is okay. I also think that when you're angry, you can take spanking too far if you do it in the moment.
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#19 prisonchaplain

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 02:23 AM

Spanking is wrong on several levels. First, it doesn't work.[/b]


While it may not work with your parenting style, to point-blank declare that it does not work, too quickly condemns what did indeed work for millenia. The Bible does not merely "condone" phsyical discipline--it calls for it. Is corporal punishment necessary for all parents in all situations? Of course not. On the other hand, to declare it 100% wrong is too strong, imho.

Second, it teaches one thing: When you are frustrated with the behavior of another, physical agression is appropriate.[/b]


No, it teaches that if you are disobedient, rebellious, and not mindful of the law, there can be physicall painful consequences. Little ons get spanked, big ones go to prison.

kids that get hit, learn to hit, not how to behave. Kids only learn how to behave by seeing adults they respect behave well, and by feeling secure in their relationships with those adults.[/b]


I would argue that spanking, properly done, can foster trust in adults, and teach children that physical restraint or punishment only happens in limited, properly governed circumstances.

Spanking is just a euphamism for physical agression or hitting. Just because the Bible condones it doesn't make it right or true. After all, the Bible also condones slavery, capital punishment and a bunch of other uncivilized behaviors.[/b]


The Bible deals with slavery, it does not call for it. The Bible commands capital punishment, and it does call for the physical punishment of rebellious youth. We that take the words of Scripture as being from God will grapple with how to apply them in today's world, rather than dismiss them as "uncivilized."

I would contend, however, that corporeal punishment is best carried out only rarely, as way of saying to the child, "You've really crossed the line this time!"

I don’t think we should spank children because they’re too young to enjoy it. Ba da bump. But seriously. I once spanked a child who did seem to enjoy it, because he kept asking for more. Ba da bump. Seriously though. I get no respect. No respect I tell you. Why, when I was a child, I’d had to wait my turn in a corner before getting a spanking. And not a very good one at that. But after I talked to my parents, we got it all worked out. [/b]


You know, this simple post explains just about everything I've ever wondered about you, my brother. :huh:

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." -- Lord Acton


#20 Heather

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 04:40 AM

I believe everyone should have the right to parent how they choose, within reason and the law of course. I think too often these days I'm seeing parents who don't parent at all. I was at the store and a 8 year old boy climbed a rack of magazines and it fell down on him. The parents, so concerned about his injuries, wanted a camera to document it all. (Or rather saw the dollar signs in their own neglect.) If they were so concerned about his well-being, why were they letting him wander around a busy store while they were 2 aisles away?

Little ones get spanked, big ones go to prison[/b]

The irony these days though is that spanking can lead to the spanker going to jail for child abuse. And not for being abusive, per say, but because it seems to me that society as a whole is moving away from corporal punishment all together, and those engaging in it still are being frowned upon.

Spank a child = he gets mad at you = tells his friends = they tell him to call the cops, and he'll never get spanked again.
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