Adam and the Priesthood

[volgadon]

Am I understanding you correctly? Alma 13 indicates that we (those ordained to the priesthood on earth) were ordained before this life to receive the priesthood. Are you implying that holding the priesthood in this life does not require an ordination in this life? If so can you provide a reference?

The Traveler

I think you misunderstood me. I was saying essentially the same as you in this post.

[ldstheories_com]

So how does a spirit get the priesthood? Is a physical body needed? If a spirit can receive the Priesthood from a spirit or from a physical body (mortal, resurrected or translated) what is the point of temple work and vicarious work for the dead? A spirit who has the priesthood sealed to it from a mortal probation could just confirm it to other spirits and all done no need for temple work for a mortal physical body to vicariously stand in place of the spirit who has passed on to the post mortal probation spirit world. Or is it that the only way to get the priesthood is during a mortal probation either in person or vicariously by a physical body during a mortal probation? So if a spirit or an embodied person has the priesthood such as Adam did, how did Adam or the personage like the Great and Noble ones get the priesthood before a and our mortal probation?

I theorize the only way to get the priesthood is to have it confirmed by the laying on of hands during a mortal probation or vicariously by a physical body during a mortal probation by one having authority who is embodied (mortal, resurrected or translated). Thus making mortal probations the only phase of existence where progression can occur to a higher level of progression and to a higher type or degree of resurrected body. Thus the fact that the Adam and other of the Great & Noble ones had the priesthood as shown by the authority to organize the elements they must have received that authority and priesthood during a prior mortal probation.

[rameumptom]

I believe there is a level of priesthood that can be held by spirits. Many are foreordained to receive callings and priesthood in this life, as well.

Now, if a spirit is foreordained, does that mean one can lay hands on a spirit? Seems to be.

However, priesthood must also be ordained upon mortal man, as well. And, when we are resurrected, we will be ordained as kings and priests in the priesthood of God. So, there seems to be levels of priesthood along the whole continuum.

[ldstheories_com]

Foreordained and ordained is another way of saying called to serve. Just because a spirit is called or called before a mortal probation or foreordained does not mean that the priesthood was given to a spirit before a mortal probation.

The act of receiving the priesthood is a confirmation - like in Moses 5:59 all things were confirmed unto Adam and not to be confused as a calling or ordination or foreordination.

All documentation I have seen and read shows the only way to get the priesthood is by the laying on of hands by one having authority/priesthood by a being with a physical body as a spirit cannot give the priesthood or receive the priesthood for the 1st time but a spirit can only have the priesthood received or confirmed or given to it during a mortal probation which it is then sealed to the spirit and can be carried with it to a post mortal probation spirit world or a pre-mortal spirit world depending on which phase of existence and what the spirit's next calling or foreordination will be in the next upcoming phase of existence. As different types of bodies are needed to fulfill different callings or foreordinations - for more discussion on this I have gone into more depth at ETERNAL PROGRESSION AND THE DIFFERENT PHASES OF EXISTENCE

So as far I can tell and what I’ve read there is not a special type of priesthood only reserved for spirits and that we have all of the priesthoods now on earth and the priesthood is eternal and unchanging and if a spirit has the priesthood it must have received it during a prior mortal probation - Like Adam who is the Ancient of Days. Why is Adam called the Ancient of days? Methuselah lived on this world for more days than Adam but is not called the more Ancient of days. The title Ancient of days to me refers to the number of prior states of phases of existence that Adam has completed and thus truly is the Ancient of days not just from his calling and time as Michael the Archangel and of as Adam on our earth and explains to me why Adam is so worthy to have progressed to his current calling of and as the Father of us all.

[rameumptom]

If we believe that the Holy Ghost and premortal Christ were/are Gods, then we must believe they hold priesthood. Godhood must come with a form of priesthood, even if it is not a fullness of it.

If Christ and the Holy Ghost can hold priesthood, so can others. We have in God's attendance, the archangels: Michael, Gabriel, Uriel, etc. Having the chain of authority among angels does not make sense without priesthood authority and keys.

[ldstheories_com]

Yes the personage holding the calling of the Holy Ghost and the period before this mortal probation Jesus as Jehovah held the Priesthood and are and were Gods and had received an exaltation and are and were a class of god. The question is how did they get the priesthood and when?

One of the points I am trying to highlight and is basic in LDS teaching is that the priesthood can only be received while in the flesh in a mortal probation by a being of Flesh - whether it be a mortal flesh, translated or resurrected being - and not by a spirit and that a spirit cannot give or receive the priesthood unless in a mortal physical body or via vicarious temple work, and it must be by one having authority. Hence the importance of Restoration of the priesthood to Joseph Smith by non-mortal flesh beings/personages who held the priesthood. And that by default if a being held the priesthood before this mortal probation that they must have received the priesthood in a prior mortal probation.

The other point I am trying to make is that there are multiple periods to progress and multiple numerous exaltations and that they cannot be all attained to in one mortal probation. The famous LDS quote by Lorenzo Snow, "“As man now is, God once was; as God is now man may be.” and John 5:19, "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he aseeth the bFather do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." and Joseph Smith saying, "“namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one, − going from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation"

Take the above quotes together and we have Lorenzo Snow saying our God was once a common man and a sinner who has now progressed to a status and position as a God and we have Jesus saying in John chapter 5 that he learned how to be a Savior by watching and observing his Father be a Savior as Jesus has done nothing that Father has not done before and Joseph Smith saying in his King Follet sermon that it is the plan for us to grow grace by grace and from exaltation to exaltation.

So God the Father in a past mortal probation was once a mortal man and sinner and dependent upon a Savior like we are in this mortal probation. God the Father was once a Savior in a past mortal probation and has grown by going from grace grace and from exaltation to exaltation and is now our God and the Father of us All of our Spirits and Physical bodies.

How can God the Father go from these different positions and progression in one mortal probation? How can God the Father be a mortal man and a sinner and yet also be a Savior in one mortal probation? The answer is God the Father could not have been a common sinner man and also a Savior in one mortal probation and that there are many exaltations and many phases of existence and many mortal probations for us to progress in and not all in just this one mortal probation. The truth is that there is Eternal Progression and that advancement or progression or growth can only occur while serving in a mortal probation and so we are called to serve in our various callings.

Brigham Young says,"The Lord Jesus Christ works upon a plan of eternal increase, of wisdom, intelligence, honor, excellence, power, glory, might, and dominion, and the attributes that fill eternity." Do we think we can prepare to be a God in one phase of existence? Do we think God the Father was once a common man in one phase of existence and a Savior in the next phase of existence? Probably not. God the Father has gone through many phases of existence and has served in many callings and fulfilled many callings and is also an "Ancient of Days" to experience and to be exalted to his current status as our “Father of us All” and as our God. The plan of Salvation is one of Eternal Increase not just increase in one mortal probation phase of existence.

[Vort]

Yes the personage holding the calling of the Holy Ghost and the period before this mortal probation Jesus as Jehovah held the Priesthood and are and were Gods and had received an exaltation and are and were a class of god.

You are inferring a tremendous amount just in this one sentence that simply is not LDS doctrine.

[ldstheories_com]

Please be more specific.

Are there callings and positions in the LDS Church? Are we not all called to a position? Once a calling is fulfilled are we not called to other callings and others fill the old position and callings? This is my understanding of the principle of positions and callings in the LDS church. They are ongoing and the point of the callings is to progress the individual and by so doing also providing progression for all - as we serve we help our own progression and the progression of those we serve. How do we grow? By being called to a calling or position in the Church accepting the position/calling laboring in that position and when finished the calling is filled by another.

Like I said before, Brigham Young says,"The Lord Jesus Christ works upon a plan of eternal increase, of wisdom, intelligence, honor, excellence, power, glory, might, and dominion, and the attributes that fill eternity." The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a church of accepting callings, laboring in that calling and by so doing producing an increase of wisdom, intelligence, honor, excellence, power, glory, might and dominion etc. And when the calling is filled another is called and another opportunity for others to grow or to progress is offered and the cycle is ongoing and we as LDS members call this Eternal Progression.

I think the above is to be agreed upon, I think the leap here is accept that the larger view of what are callings in the Church? Is it a calling to be part of a Godhead? I think it is as much of a calling as it is to be a part of the bishopric - 3 members and all. So what happens when the calling is finished? Another is called to serve - they cycle is ongoing and provides for Eternal Progression - we labor and tread where others have tread before and they offer us principles and guidelines for us to progress ourselves and others.

Let me now your thoughts?

[Vort]

Please be more specific.

Your sentence:

Yes the personage holding the calling of the Holy Ghost and the period before this mortal probation Jesus as Jehovah held the Priesthood and are and were Gods and had received an exaltation and are and were a class of god.

Your inferences:

• The nature of the Holy Ghost is something that has been revealed enough to talk intelligently and meaningfully about it.
• "Holy Ghost" is a calling.
• The "calling" of "Holy Ghost" is "held" by a single "personage".
• The "personage" "holding" the "calling" of "Holy Ghost" held the Priesthood premortally.
• Exaltation is not a single state; rather, it can be received in stages or degrees or in different varieties of some sort.
• "Gods" (or "gods") come in different varieties or "classes".

So far as I know, none of these inferences is LDS doctrine. I also am not convinced that any of them is true, and feel quite sure that some, at least, are false.

[HiJolly]

Let me now your thoughts?

I don't think so, grasshopper.

And it further sullies the proposition that this theory is already fully embraced and taught in many if not most of the fundamentalist apostate off-shoots from the Church.

HiJolly

[ldstheories_com]

Let's review:

"Holy Ghost" is a calling.

Inferred yes - Inferred by the reasoning that all positions in the church are callings

The "calling" of "Holy Ghost" is "held" by a single "personage".

D&C 130:22 "...the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. ..."

The "personage" "holding" the "calling" of "Holy Ghost" held the Priesthood premortally.

In the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith on page 190 "The Three Personages" are discussed. "Everlasting covenant was made between three personages before the organization of this earth, and relates to their dispensation of things to men on the earth; these personages, according to Abraham's record are called God the first, the Creator; God the second, the Redeemer; and God the third, the witness or Testator"

The Holy Ghost is God the third the witness or Testator and held the calling, "before the organization of this earth"

Exaltation is not a single state; rather, it can be received in stages or degrees or in different varieties of some sort.

D&C 93: 12-14 -

12 And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;

13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness;

14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.

D&C 19-20

19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.

20 For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.

In Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith (ToPJS) pages 345-348 he further discusses the different stages of exaltations etc given on April 6th 1844

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens."

"it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so;

for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see."

"It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible."

"Here, then, is eternal life − to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, − namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one, − from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation,"

"Gods" (or "gods") come in different varieties or "classes".

In the same King Follett sermon a above.

"...although the earthly tabernacle is laid down and dissolved, they shall rise again, to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer, or die any more; but they shall be heirs of God and joint−heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory, and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a God and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before. What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds come rolling into existence. My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the track of his Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children. It is plain beyond disputation; and you thus learn some of the first principles of the Gospel, about which so much hath been said."

"When you climb a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel: you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the vail before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world: it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave."

What is this grasshopper you speak of?

As you see my thoughts are based upon scriptures and the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Is that to be considered "LDS doctrine"?

[Vort]

Let's review:

"Holy Ghost" is a calling.

Inferred yes - Inferred by the reasoning that all positions in the church are callings

That's funny. I don't recall ever sustaining a ward Holy Ghost. So far as I know -- and please correct me if I'm wrong -- "Holy Ghost" is not a church position. So your inference is unwarranted.

The "calling" of "Holy Ghost" is "held" by a single "personage".

D&C 130:22 "...the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. ..."

A single example of a singular article is not enough to establish the point. I acknowledge that the scriptural presentation of the Holy Ghost is of a single discrete being, but even that is more of an inference from presentation, not rising to the level of doctrinal certainty. Given the lack of almost any specifics regarding the Holy Ghost, I would say that most or all such inferences are unwarranted.

The "personage" "holding" the "calling" of "Holy Ghost" held the Priesthood premortally.

In the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith on page 190 "The Three Personages" are discussed. "Everlasting covenant was made between three personages before the organization of this earth, and relates to their dispensation of things to men on the earth; these personages, according to Abraham's record are called God the first, the Creator; God the second, the Redeemer; and God the third, the witness or Testator"

The Holy Ghost is God the third the witness or Testator and held the calling, "before the organization of this earth"

This does not establish your point.

Exaltation is not a single state; rather, it can be received in stages or degrees or in different varieties of some sort.

D&C 93: 12-14 -

12 And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;

13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness;

14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.

D&C 19-20

19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.

20 For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.

In Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith (ToPJS) pages 345-348 he further discusses the different stages of exaltations etc given on April 6th 1844

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens."

"it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so;

for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see."

"It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible."

"Here, then, is eternal life − to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, − namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one, − from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation,"

So a single unattested quote of Joseph Smith using the phrase "from exaltation to exaltation" is enough, in your mind, to establish gradiations of exaltation as LDS doctrine? I strongly disagree.

"Gods" (or "gods") come in different varieties or "classes".

In the same King Follett sermon a above.

"...although the earthly tabernacle is laid down and dissolved, they shall rise again, to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer, or die any more; but they shall be heirs of God and joint−heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory, and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a God and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before. What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds come rolling into existence. My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the track of his Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children. It is plain beyond disputation; and you thus learn some of the first principles of the Gospel, about which so much hath been said."

"When you climb a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel: you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the vail before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world: it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave."

Nowhere does this quote establish your claim.

What is this grasshopper you speak of?

I never spoke of a grasshopper.

As you see my thoughts are based upon scriptures and the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Is that to be considered "LDS doctrine"?

No, clearly not, as I have pointed out.

[ldstheories_com]

I'll respond but I have no problem agreeing to disagree. The more I read the more I see the concepts and principle I've discussed and to me they are scriptural and taught by the prophets, but that can be my view point.

I like your response of not having recalled ever sustaining a ward Holy Ghost before. Humor is a good thing!

I only listed one reference on the Holy Ghost being a personage of spirit. There are lots more.

On my web page ETERNAL PROGRESSION AND THE DIFFERENT PHASES OF EXISTENCE I have study links. One category I have is for "LDS INSTITUTE OF RELIGION COURSES & MANUALS" one of them is DOCTRINES OF THE GOSPEL. In there Chapter 5 is about the Holy Ghost. The first doctrinal outline point is that of, "1. T he Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit and possesses all the characteristics of a divine personality (see D&C 130:22; 1 Nephi 11:11)."

The LDS confirmed manual goes on to say, "“The Holy Ghost is the third member of the Godhead. He is a Spirit, in the form of a man. . . . The Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit, and has a spirit body only. His mission is to bear witness of the Father and the Son and of all truth. “As a Spirit personage the Holy Ghost has size and dimensions. He does not fill the immensity of space, and cannot be everywhere present in person at the same time. He is also called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of Truth, and the Comforter” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:38).

■ “The sign of the dove was instituted before the creation of the world, a witness for the Holy

Ghost, and the devil cannot come in the sign of a dove. The Holy Ghost is a personage, and is in the

form of a personage. It does not confine itself to the form of the dove, but in sign of the dove. The

Holy Ghost cannot be transformed into a dove; but the sign of a dove was given to John to signify

the truth of the deed, as the dove is an emblem or token of truth and innocence” (Joseph Smith,

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 276).

■ “The Holy Ghost as a personage of Spirit can no more be omnipresent in person than can the Father

or the Son, but by his intelligence, his knowledge, his power and influence, over and through the laws of nature, he is and can be omnipresent throughout all the works of God” (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 61).

...elsewhere "Because he is a Spirit Personage, he has power— according to the eternal laws ordained by the Father—to perform essential and unique functions for men. Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 359)."

Again there are many other places that refer to the Holy Ghost being singular male personage of spirit.

Joseph Smith again said that the Holy Ghost is, "personage of and is in the form of a personage (ToPJS P276)

An interesting one I found when reviewing "The Holy Ghost" by Joseph Fielding McConkie & Robert L Millet say that Joseph Smith on 27 August 1843 as recorded by Franklyn D. Richards explained that, "the Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which, if he should perform in righteousness, he may pass through the same or similar course of things that the Son has (Words of Joseph Smith, P 245) and again the prophet is recording as saying and taught that, "the Holy Ghost...is waiting to take to himself a body as the Savior did, or as God did, or the Gods before them took bodies" (Words of Joseph Smith, P 382)

So the above items again refer to various phases of existence and that we have callings and if we perform them in righteousness we may progress to the next phase of existence as I have been discussing.

To me the below does verify and substantiate not my claim but the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith that the Holy Ghost held the Title, Calling as the 3rd member of the Godhead in the pre-mortal existence or as Joseph Smith phrases it "before the organization of this earth"

In the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith on page 190 "The Three Personages" are discussed. "Everlasting covenant was made between three personages before the organization of this earth, and relates to their dispensation of things to men on the earth; these personages, according to Abraham's record are called God the first, the Creator; God the second, the Redeemer; and God the third, the witness or Testator"

The Holy Ghost is God the third the witness or Testator and held the calling, "before the organization of this earth"

I'm not sure how to be more clear than that?

As to and for Eternal Progression and there being different phases of existence it is evident to me from very many places and ties things together nicely.

If you don't believe in Eternal Progression and ongoing phases of existence how do you answer how God was once a man, once a Savior and is now our God The Father?

Do you not agree with Joseph Smith's teaching of Eternal Progression as laid out in the King Follett sermon?

How do you explain how the course of the Lord is,"One Eternal Round"

How do explain the scriptural phrase, "From Eternity to Eternity"

How do you explain how Adam and others had the priesthood before the creation of this world?

How does a spirit get the priesthood if not during a mortal probation that is carried over into the post mortal or pre-mortal existences?

To me the concept of Eternal Progression explains these points and that we are Eternal Beings and co-eternal with God and our purpose is to progress ourselves and others in the process - for it is God's purpose to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of mankind.

Edited January 11, 2012 by ldstheories_com

[rameumptom]

LDS_theories:

Sorry, but you are now going into fundamentalist Adam-God dogma that has been rejected by the Church. I reject it, also. We have resurrection, not reincarnation.

We grew in the premortal existence. We held a priesthood there that could be given to spirits. We come here (once) and gain the priesthood. We are then judged and receive a kingdom thereafter. It may be possible that there is later progression between kingdoms, but we do not know right now. D&C 130 does show that there is continued learning and progression in the next life.

The scriptures do not teach Adam-God. Why not? Because it was a theory of Brigham Young's that just is not true. He theorized on many things, things which never became solid doctrine in the Church. There's a reason we have modern prophets, and that is to correct previously taught concepts that just are not so.

[ldstheories_com]

I'm looking for Clarity.

How do you determine what is scripture and LDS doctrine? Is what Joseph Smith taught 90% true or all true? How do you pick and choose? Is what Jesus taught all true or just mostly true? Where do you draw the line? In D&C 68:4 it says, "And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture". I'm not pushing any agenda of fundamentalist group or anything. I've just read as much as I can on the teachings of prophet Joseph Smith and he teaches Eternal Progression about God The Father. Joseph Smith Taught, "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens."

God was once a man as we are now and is now an exalted Man. How did God the Father go from being a man as we are now to being an exalted Man as he is now? Do you choose to pick and choose and ignore this teaching and this principle and this doctrine? Why would choose to ignore this? Joseph Smith said, “I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief (TOPJS p.374)”.

Do you have a theory or principles to teach this? You do but what are your thoughts? Have you thought about it? I think we should think about it. I have thought about it and to the best of my ability I have found support scriptures and support LDS Leaders that teach support principles, concepts and doctrine.

Joseph Smith taught about ongoing Eternal Progression a lot. in ToPJS page 373 Joseph Smith is talking about the papyrus he is translating in his house and reviewing the teachings of Abraham and his logic about if there is a wiser man than the wisest man that may exist and he agrees and says, "Intelligences exit one above another, so that there is no end to them." We are Eternal beings and are co-eternal with god. What do we do with eternities of time? We progress and gather wisdom.

Joseph Smith goes on to say continuing on the path of logic that Abraham was shown, "If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, (Rev. 1:6) you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. ....Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it."

"I want you to pay particular attention to what I am saying, Jesus said that the Father wrought precisely in the same way as His Father had done before Him. (John 5:19) As the Father had done before? He laid down His life, and took it up the same as His Father had done before. He did as He was sent, to lay down His life and take it up again; ... I know it is good reasoning."

So Jesus has a Father and his Father has Father and there is no end to this on going Eternal Progression and repetition of callings or roles or what ever you want to call it. Jesus does nothing but what he has seen his Father do (John 5:19). So God the Father was once a man, once a Savior and is now a God the Father and He has a Father and so on for ever.

Bruce R McConkie in his self titled Mormon Doctrine 2nd edition he discusses what he calls the Patriarchal Chain, "Those who shall hereafter rule and reign in eternity as exalted beings will form a patriarchal chain which will begin with Father Adam and spread out until every exalted person is linked in. Exaltation consists in the continuation of the family unit in eternity..."

I'll repeat what I posted before:

In Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith (ToPJS) pages 345-348 he further discusses the different stages of exaltations etc given on April 6th 1844

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens."

"it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so;

for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see."

"It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible."

"Here, then, is eternal life − to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, − namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one, − from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation,"

"...although the earthly tabernacle is laid down and dissolved, they shall rise again, to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer, or die any more; but they shall be heirs of God and joint−heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory, and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a God and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before. What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds come rolling into existence. My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the track of his Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children. It is plain beyond disputation; and you thus learn some of the first principles of the Gospel, about which so much hath been said."

"When you climb a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel: you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the vail before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world: it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave."

Joseph Smith in context is talking about exaltations. He said we must go from a small degree to a larger one and progress from exaltation to exaltation and it is like climbing a ladder and there are many rungs to climb which is to say there are many exaltations and it will be a great work beyond the grave or this mortal life to attain exalted states or exaltations.

It seems the more I discuss these topics instead of being embraced and being told hey good things to think about I am being called an apostate?

I wonder why that is? So embrace the Gospel and its fullness as revealed via Joseph Smith or continue to hide and quake in the dark. As for me I choose to be like Joseph Smith and will despise the idea of being scared to death at such doctrine.

[Vort]

I'm looking for Clarity.

How do you determine what is scripture and LDS doctrine?

You look to the living prophets and hear what they are teaching us today. And you take your own suppositions and speculations with several very large grains of salt, making sure never, ever, ever to teach or represent such things as the gospel of Jesus Christ.

But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble. (Jacob 4:14)

[ldstheories_com]

In response to rameumptom's posting below:

"We grew in the premortal existence. We held a priesthood there that could be given to spirits. We come here (once) and gain the priesthood. We are then judged and receive a kingdom thereafter. It may be possible that there is later progression between kingdoms, but we do not know right now. D&C 130 does show that there is continued learning and progression in the next life."

I see some LDS Theories there also.

you say, "We held a priesthood there that could be given to spirits." Where are you getting that teaching? What prophet or LDS Theologian or scripture teaches that priesthood can be given to spirits? Yes spirits there had priesthood.

How does one get the priesthood?

On the LDS site for LDS INSTITUTE OF RELIGION COURSES & MANUALS for DOCTRINES OF THE GOSPEL located at https://si.lds.org/bc/seminary/content/library/manuals/institute-student/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual_eng.pdf

On Page 72 in Chapter 25 it details how one gets the priesthood.

B. Priesthood authority is conferred only by the laying on of hands.

1. Divine authority is received only by ordination through the laying on of hands by commissioned

servants of the Lord (see Articles of Faith 1:5; Alma 6:1).

2. Those who hold priesthood power are commissioned to act in God’s name for the salvation of mankind (see D&C 20:73; 138:30).

Take this into context this is referring to how the priesthood is given in a mortal probation which we are now in.

So I again ascertain that the only way and phase of existence to receive the priesthood is by the laying of hands by one having authority during a mortal probation unless the priesthood is carried over into the next phase of existence after being sealed to the spirit from the mortal probation period.

Here in lies the problem with the teaching that spirits can receive the priesthood. If a spirit can receive the priesthood there is no need for temple vicarious work to be done. One priesthood holder could enter the spirit world after there mortal probation and give every worthy prepared spirit there the priesthood. Is that how it works? No. The priesthood must be received in person during a mortal probation or vicariously by a physical body in a mortal probation.

at https://si.lds.org/bc/seminary/content/library/manuals/institute-student/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual_eng.pdf on page 90 in chapter 31 titled "The Redemption of the Dead" it says, "Christ bridged that gulf and made it possible for the word of salvation to be taken to all corners of the kingdom of darkness. In this way the realms of hell were invaded and the dead prepared for the ordinances of the Gospel which must be performed on earth since they pertain to the mortal probation” (Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, 165).

Then.

Responding to the comment of,"It may be possible that there is later progression between kingdoms, but we do not know right now. D&C 130 does show that there is continued learning and progression in the next life.""

In D&C 76 109-112 it says:

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

So per D&C 76:112 Telestial beings cannot come to where God & Christ dwell which must be or by my inference is the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom.

I reviewed D&C 130 and did not see any writings indicating that any progression between the kingdoms could happen.

So as is, it is LDS teaching that anyone that is not of the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom "that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase. (D&C 131:4) and are Damned and no increase or progression can occur.

Again I quote the LDS Page below to review D&C 130:4 to see what the church says on the matter:

https://si.lds.org/bc/seminary/content/library/manuals/institute-student/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual_eng.pdf

On page 342 it says the below:

D&C 131:4. What Is Eternal Increase? Those who comply with the new and everlasting covenant of marriage and endure to the end gain the right to become eternal parents. The Prophet Joseph Smith, as he spoke verses 1–4 to William Clayton, stated: “Except a man and his wife enter into an everlasting covenant and be married for eternity, while in this probation, by the power and authority of the Holy Priesthood, they will cease to increase when they die; that is, they will not have any children after the resurrection. But those who are married by the power and authority of the priesthood in this life, and continue without committing the sin against the Holy Ghost, will continue to increase and have children in the celestial glory.” (History of the Church, 5:391; see also Smith, Teachings, pp. 300–301.)

On 30 June 1916, the First Presidency of the Church (Joseph F. Smith, Anthon H. Lund, and Charles W. Penrose) declared: “So far as the stages of eternal progression and attainment have been made known through divine revelation, we are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings can become parents of spirit offspring. Only such exalted souls have reached maturity in the appointed course of eternal life; and the spirits born to them in the eternal worlds will pass in due sequence through the several stages or estates by which the glorified parents have attained exaltation.” (In Clark, Messages of the First Presidency, 5:34.)

To point out...again the point I am making comes up..there are several phases of existence and not just one that must be gone through to obtain exaltation - I did not know I would find this quote...but again here it is..."Only such exalted souls have reached maturity in the appointed course of eternal life; and the spirits born to them in the eternal worlds will pass in due sequence through the several stages or estates by which the glorified parents have attained exaltation.” (In Clark, Messages of the First Presidency, 5:34.)"

So per LDS Teaching if you do not have a mortal probation period and obtain entrance into the highest kingdom of the Celestial Kingdom that is the End of your increase and the End of your Eternal Progression.

So is it the LDS teaching that the majority of mankind are destined to be damned worlds without end....

One could say that per what I have just quoted.

My theory says that if spirit wants to progress beyond their current state of glory or resurrected body that is not the highest degree of the Celestial kingdom they will have to go through another mortal probation in a future Eternity.

That is my theory and seems to me to fit into the rules as laid out.

[ldstheories_com]

How what I am theorizing is not reincarnation:

In the ToPJS on page 105 Joseph Smith discusses "transmigration of soul" taught by Matthias. Matthias taught that,"his spirit was resurrected in him: and that this was the way or scheme of eternal life"

Reincarnation is where a spirit leaves a mortal probation and returns to that same mortal probation. I am not saying that.

I theorize that it is possible to request another mortal probation in a FUTURE ETERNITY. So I am not like Matthias and I am not teaching reincarnation. There is a difference.

[HiJolly]

My opinion is that anytime we have a theory or even revelation that is in contrast to the Church's teachings and doctrine, it is our duty to treasure it up to ourselves, and be silent, lest we find ourselves acting contrary to our covenants.

Since you like quoting early Church leaders, how do you like these?

"Let us be faithful and silent, brethren, and if God gives you a

manifestation, keep it to yourselves; be watchful and prayerful,

and you shall have a prelude of those joys that God will pour out

on that day, (HC 2:309)"

-- Joseph Smith, Jr.

"The Lord has taught me many things, and He would teach me many

more things if I could just learn to keep my mouth shut."

-- J. Reuben Clark

You might want to consider that, especially if you have been endowed.

HiJolly

[ldstheories_com]

My only intent was to have a discussion on some LDS Theories that Joseph Smith talked a great deal about and is published material that as LDS member we are all encouraged to read and to ponder. As far as I know I have not disclosed any information from the endowment and only use published material like the scriptures ToPJS and JOD.

Sorry if any ill feelings have occurred.

I would like some honest feedback though on some of the quotes and concepts taught by Joseph Smith without being told indirectly to shut up and being called a fundamentalist apostate.

[Vort]

I would like some honest feedback though on some of the quotes and concepts taught by Joseph Smith without being told indirectly to shut up and being called a fundamentalist apostate.

I think you've received some honest feedback. The problem seems to be that you don't like it.

There are two possibilities to your theories: They are fundamentally correct or they are fundamentally wrong.

If they are wrong, they are harmful because they tend to lead people away from the truth. If they are correct, there are two possibilities: Either they are taught by the Church (which is the vehicle of the gospel of Jesus Christ today) or they are not.

If they are, you can simply cite the teaching and be done with it. But your inability to do so coupled with your chosen screen name suggest this is not the case. So if it's not taught by the Church, there are two possibilities: They were revealed to you by the Spirit or they were not.

If they were revealed to you by the Spirit, then "It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him." (Alma 12:9) Therefore, you are to hold these things sacred and keep them to yourself. If they were not revealed to you by the Spirit, then there are two possibilities: Either they are harmful to other people in their spiritual progression or they are not.

If they are harmful, you must stop putting them forward, even if they are actually correct. Knowledge that damages people should be kept from them until such a time as they are able to understand it. This is why we generally do not tell our four-year-olds about sex; they are not capable of understanding it, and some will be frightened at the idea. The Church exists as a vehicle to bring people to a point where they can bear all things, where the knowledge of truth will not damage them. To those not at this stage, the truth seems either dull, stupid, and irrelevant, or it seems sinister and threatening. In the latter case, they will fight against it. This is a dangerous position to be in, fighting against the truth because it scares you. How many people fight against the gospel because so many Saints have unwisely proclaimed Joseph Smith's "King Follett discourse", a speech intended solely for the ears of the Saints? They are threatened by the doctrines Joseph taught therein. And IT IS OUR FAULT they are offended, because IT IS OUR FAULT that we didn't keep our mouths shut about these things. To the spiritually young, we give sweet and nourishing milk. We don't -- or shouldn't -- cram steak and potatoes down their throat.

In my estimation, this is why you have received the responses you have found. But as is true with all things, such responses only have value with those who have ears to hear.

[mikbone]

What you are discussing is not new. Its been around a long time, but it is NOT doctrine.

check out

New Cool Thang Multiple Mortal Probations — Why I Tend To Agree With Heber C. Kimball and Friends

This site does a good job of philosphical debate. You may notice that they are very careful in the way that they discuss the various theories. Lots of words like may, perhaps, suggests...

You have recieved good advice from the above posters.

[rameumptom]

The Church's website has a post that tells us exactly what is and isn't doctrine:

Approaching Mormon Doctrine - LDS Newsroom

In it, it states:

Much misunderstanding about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints revolves around its doctrine. The news media is increasingly asking what distinguishes the Church from other faiths, and reporters like to contrast one set of beliefs with another.

The Church welcomes inquisitiveness, but the challenge of understanding Mormon doctrine is not merely a matter of accessing the abundant information available. Rather, it is a matter of how this information is approached and examined.

The doctrinal tenets of any religion are best understood within a broad context (see here and here), and thoughtful analysis is required to understand them. News reporters pressed by daily deadlines often find that problematic. Therefore, as the Church continues to grow throughout the world and receive increasing media attention, a few simple principles that facilitate a better understanding may be helpful:

• Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.
• Some doctrines are more important than others and might be considered core doctrines. For example, the precise location of the Garden of Eden is far less important than doctrine about Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice. The mistake that public commentators often make is taking an obscure teaching that is peripheral to the Church’s purpose and placing it at the very center. This is especially common among reporters or researchers who rely on how other Christians interpret Latter-day Saint doctrine.

[rameumptom]

The Church's website has a post that tells us exactly what is and isn't doctrine:

Approaching Mormon Doctrine - LDS Newsroom

In it, it states:

Much misunderstanding about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints revolves around its doctrine. The news media is increasingly asking what distinguishes the Church from other faiths, and reporters like to contrast one set of beliefs with another.

The Church welcomes inquisitiveness, but the challenge of understanding Mormon doctrine is not merely a matter of accessing the abundant information available. Rather, it is a matter of how this information is approached and examined.

The doctrinal tenets of any religion are best understood within a broad context (see here and here), and thoughtful analysis is required to understand them. News reporters pressed by daily deadlines often find that problematic. Therefore, as the Church continues to grow throughout the world and receive increasing media attention, a few simple principles that facilitate a better understanding may be helpful:

• Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.
• Some doctrines are more important than others and might be considered core doctrines. For example, the precise location of the Garden of Eden is far less important than doctrine about Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice. The mistake that public commentators often make is taking an obscure teaching that is peripheral to the Church’s purpose and placing it at the very center. This is especially common among reporters or researchers who rely on how other Christians interpret Latter-day Saint doctrine.

So, the teachings in TPJS are not necessarily doctrine, even though said by Joseph Smith. Second, they are only as accurate as they were transcribed. For example, there are several versions of the King Follett Discourse, not just the version found in TPJS. We can get a different feel for the teaching from some of those versions. Even with that, the KFD is basically a stand-alone discourse, not found in the above "official" doctrine of the Church, and may or may not be truly understood by us. It is not doctrine, simply because it is not well defined, nor well supported by modern prophets' statements.

The same may be said of the other quotes you used from TPJS, etc. They are not doctrine, although they were taught at some point. And because they are not well fleshed out, the do not constitute doctrine, as in what you are teaching shows there is lots of latitude in how one can understand and interpret them.

[ldstheories_com]

Understood. I don't proclaim it to be doctrine. But the concept and principle of eternal progression and multiple mortal probation to me were taught and to me it answers questions and I enjoy theories and models to explain things and have attempted to explain things with theories and models which to me is enjoyable. Again if any ill feeling were generated I apologize. My intent is to have an in-depth discussion on topics and to compare to them scripture and quotes and to expand my gospel knowledge as much as I can.

Interestingly on the last quote a link was given about

The Restoration of Major Doctrines through Joseph Smith:

The Godhead, Mankind, and the Creation

By Donald Q. Cannon, Larry E. Dahl, and John W. Welch

at LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Restoration of Major Doctrines through Joseph Smith: The Godhead, Mankind, and the Creation

Some of the concepts are brought up again that I brought up.

“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens”; that “he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did”; and that he “worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling."

"Ultimately, he (JESUS) will take the role of the Father as the Father will “take a higher exaltation,” and God will be “thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children.”

"the Prophet spoke of the Holy Ghost as a being “in the form of a personage,” 16 as a “spirit without tabernacle,” separate and distinct from the personages of the Father and the Son. 17 According to the George Laub journal, on another occasion Joseph taught that “the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body.”

"Eternal life is also possible, in part, because an element of every human being is divine and eternal. Joseph Smith used several different terms to refer to that eternal essence—spirit, soul, mind, and intelligence. He received the knowledge that “man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.” (D&C 93:29.) He taught that “the mind of man is as immortal as God himself” 28 and that “the Spirit of Man [meaning intelligence] is not a created being.” 29

He did not define, however, this element’s form and substance, nor did he identify its attributes, other than its eternal nature. This eternal element of intelligence or light of truth is something other than the spirit bodies God created later; these later entities were “the intelligences that were organized” and were the spirits that Abraham saw.

From revelations given to Joseph Smith (see D&C 131–32) and from his own comments about them, plus subsequent statements from later prophets, 30 we know that spirit bodies are procreated by resurrected, exalted couples who have “a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.” (D&C 132:19.) Spirits are “begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father.” 31 In our own primeval births, the eternal intelligence part of us was “organized” and provided opportunity to become part of God’s plan of salvation—with the potential to become like him. This doctrine is ennobling and intriguing—a subject that we hope will be among the many great and important things about which God will yet reveal more. (See A of F 1:9.)"

So again this is for my fun and enjoyment and maybe I'll learn something along the way...I'll parrot the above expression by saying that the thought of eternal progression is made possible by multiple probationary estates , "This doctrine is ennobling and intriguing"