Adam and the Priesthood

[kayne]

LDS_theories:

Sorry, but you are now going into fundamentalist Adam-God dogma that has been rejected by the Church. I reject it, also. We have resurrection, not reincarnation.

We grew in the premortal existence. We held a priesthood there that could be given to spirits. We come here (once) and gain the priesthood. We are then judged and receive a kingdom thereafter. It may be possible that there is later progression between kingdoms, but we do not know right now. D&C 130 does show that there is continued learning and progression in the next life.

The scriptures do not teach Adam-God. Why not? Because it was a theory of Brigham Young's that just is not true. He theorized on many things, things which never became solid doctrine in the Church. There's a reason we have modern prophets, and that is to correct previously taught concepts that just are not so.

i will say about the Adam-God dogma. is Young did say i dont recall the exact words...but "If i was lieing God would of removed me from my post". yet Young remained prophet i think the longest of all the modern prophets. so i do have to at least acknowledge he is quite possibly correct. furthermore if he was lieing about all his crazy theories then well God would of removed him or else God is a liar? dont be confused i dont pretend to understand or really accept the Adam-God dogma but just saying there is a fairly high chance he is correct especially when he says towards the end You will have to understand it eventually but if i told you more mockery would not end. though let me clear i am not endorsing it or calling it correct. i am well aware FLDS type folks love this and use it to fuel their false ideas and overall the theory even if 100% true has caused more harm than good and is a poster boy for places like exmormon.org. if its true i suppose we just arent ready to hear it yet.

also he is right this is not reincarnation. reincarnation is coming back to the same earth usually as something other than human. but this earth will end at some point and he hasnt mentioned anything suggesting otherwise so i assume he agrees with that.

as for the long theory in this thread. it is interesting. i did enjoy reading it. it is possible i suppose. granted i do not like the idea of coming to earth a few more times. however it is just that. it is a theory. granted a well thought out one but a theory no less. I am in no position to say whether it is right or wrong. you do have some compelling arguements to be made. however i will say this. it is not official church doctrine nor should it be treated as such. also if studying this theory leads one to believe it entirely then make sure you are being divinely inspired otherwise drop it. and as whoever said

If they were revealed to you by the Spirit, then "It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him." (Alma 12:9) Therefore, you are to hold these things sacred and keep them to yourself. If they were not revealed to you by the Spirit, then there are two possibilities: Either they are harmful to other people in their spiritual progression or they are not.

basically this. as one of those indivuals ive learned a lot. ive learned a thing or two that would actually end a few long standing arguements of the church. however they are not to come from me i am no prophet. i cannot speak for the whole church and declare such things. i lack any authority to make such a decision. i simply know what i know. i thank you for that verse i never knew that and took it to mean what i see it can mean now. that verse actually helps me out a lot. if for no other reason i am glad i read this thread and found that verse.

regardless it was a fun read. i enjoyed it. i enjoy abstract crazy theories. i will say what you say sounds possible but i still have a hard time accepting it all as completely true simply because well mostly i have little desire to run a course through earth again. also i question how judgement plays into all of this? are we truely judged multiple times? also this sounds like it would take forever. furthermore who gets to come to an earth again? and why? is this just some role those that earned exhalation get? i suppose not knowing everything i cant get that but it begs the question what if in the process i become a son of a perdition on earth run number 5? seems unfair to me.

though the point of Jesus does only what the Father has shown him is intrigueing. but ill leave it at that. interesting nothing more nothing less.

eh well carry on i suppose as long as you are a good faithful member of the LDS church(the one specifically the follows Thomas S Monson) then no harm in pondering deeper meanings to things. however like the Adam-God theory i see this website of yours as being probably more harmful than good and for that reason i might advice closing it down. however note i am a hyprocrit because i am reading Amazon.com: The Adamic Language and Calendar: The True Bible Code (9781441581976): David B. MD Cohen: Books

which is pure theory and speculation but it is quite the awesome read. though i think this guy uses more facts and direct evidence as opposed to just thoughts and claims like you do. so i dont consider it quite in the realm of philosophy talk since this guy has done some serious study of different languages and ultimately there was an original language so its not like its a shot in the dark which is all you have.

[ldstheories_com]

Thank you.

All I am doing is asking questions and trying to come up with a model where all statements made make sense and are not contradictory....my attempt at creating harmony.

I still ask the question how was God an ordinary man like us then a Savior before and now a Father of Spirits? How did this happen?

I love the book scriptural teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith which is where most of my thoughts on eternal progression come from.

There Joseph Smith says, ""It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible."

So Joseph Smith says it is the first principle of the gospel to know the character of God...So if God became God by going through multiple phases of existence or by going through multiple probationary estates to progress to what God is now then isn't our duty to discuss and comprehend this?

The preceding and post paragraphs of the quote are quite fascinating and meaningful to me also..

I'll re-post them for fun.

In Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith (ToPJS) pages 345-348 given on April 6th 1844

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens."

"it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so;

for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see."

"It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible."

"Here, then, is eternal life − to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, − namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one, − from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation,"

So maybe I should be quiet but...then what if Joseph Smith was quiet and the other prophets before? would we have the truths we have? Again I am not saying what I am saying is true but it's my attempt at understanding what Joseph Smith taught and coming up with a model to make all statements make sense and for there to be no contention or contradictory statements among LDS teachings - which to me in my opinion there are not and it is just our understanding of the statements made that is lacking.

Thank you for your input. That is my only goal is to discuss concepts that were talked about and to ponder them and try to make sense or a harmony of them.

Again I mean no ill feelings but if statements were made publicly than to me they they should be discussed openly and not in quiet and in secret places and as Joseph smith said in my opinion about this topic, "“I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel"

So thank you

[rameumptom]

But with all the speculation, the bad transcripting of old speeches, and our attempts to interpret/misinterpret one-offs, you will fail at trying to get everything to work together. Why? because a lot of speculation came through the JoD period and in the early to mid 20th century.

When Brigham Young was teaching that God was progressing in knowledge, while Orson Pratt taught that God already knew everything, we cannot attempt to combine such concepts without doing serious damage to one or both theories. We mangle the truth, trying to force prophetic statements together.

Instead, we should return to the scriptures and determine doctrine and teachings from it, guided by the living prophets. We get the important writings of Joseph Smith in the scriptures. All the rest is good to know, to help us understand scripture better, but not to replace scripture. We have living prophets to let us know when previous prophets were incorrect.

I suggest if you want to develop a solid theory to go by, you use the scriptures. Then use prophetic teachings to support those concepts, knowing that not all prophets thought the same on all things.

[ldstheories_com]

Good advice. I'm trying to do that.

[mikbone]

All I am doing is asking questions and trying to come up with a model where all statements made make sense and are not contradictory....my attempt at creating harmony.

I've been where you are. I have come to a conclusion that I have found to be satisfactory, as well as agreeable with scripture and latter day teachings.

Check out one of my earlier posts...

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/19807-what-type-body-did-jehovah-show-unto-brother-jared.html

you may find it interesting.

[bytor2112]

I've been where you are. I have come to a conclusion that I have found to be satisfactory, as well as agreeable with scripture and latter day teachings.

Check out one of my earlier posts...

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/19807-what-type-body-did-jehovah-show-unto-brother-jared.html

you may find it interesting.

Mikbone....you have become one of my favorite posters. Thanks for the insights, links and the tone of your posts.

[Matthew0059]

The rich irony of this thread is that LDStheories has been using a plethora of scriptures and prophetic statements to support what he's saying- and then he's told that he is, essentially, apostate (while never being shown exactly why he's wrong, according to the scriptures). Why? Because the modern Brethren haven't definitively stated these things as doctrine! Everyone forgets that the whole Church is under severe condemnation for this very reason: vanity and unbelief.

When someone goes further and seeks to remove themselves from said condemnation, and seek the deeper mysteries of the Gospel and study the weightier matters and then try to share what they've been led to by the Holy Spirit of God, they're immediately heckled and mocked and called names, rebuked with a faulty understanding of the scriptures and told they're lacking in faith. The cure for their grievous sin of looking beyond the mark of official Church doctrine, of course, is to put down the "best books" written by our own holy men and return to following the living prophet (whatever that means. Can't find the term or injunction to "follow the prophet" in the scriptures...).

Hyrum Smith's crab theory, indeed...

Edited January 31, 2012 by Matthew0059

[annewandering]

"Everyone forgets that the whole Church is under severe condemnation for this very reason: vanity and unbelief."

What? By whom?

[Suzie]

"Everyone forgets that the whole Church is under severe condemnation for this very reason: vanity and unbelief."

What? By whom?

I didn't read the whole thread or messages but this is the scripture I think the poster refers to Doctrine and Covenants 84:54-57*

[Matthew0059]

"Everyone forgets that the whole Church is under severe condemnation for this very reason: vanity and unbelief."

What? By whom?

God.

D&C 84:49-59:

49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin.

50 And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me.

51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin.

52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.

53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

In Pres. Bensons "inaugural" Conference address (first address as Church president), he reminded the members of this fact and declared the condemnation had not been lifted, but was still in effect.

Most members forget that damming truth though, preferring to bask in the false idea that we are a chosen and righteous people because, after all, we have a living prophet- we're the Mormons, children of Abraham and Joseph Smith!

[kayne]

God.

D&C 84:49-59:

49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin.

50 And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me.

51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin.

52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.

53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

In Pres. Bensons "inaugural" Conference address (first address as Church president), he reminded the members of this fact and declared the condemnation had not been lifted, but was still in effect.

Most members forget that damming truth though, preferring to bask in the false idea that we are a chosen and righteous people because, after all, we have a living prophet- we're the Mormons, children of Abraham and Joseph Smith!

hmm i did not know this. quite interesting really. this is an interesting point ive noticed here living in utah too. a lot of mormons the famous the molly mormon term adopt a holier than thou attitude. even my parents who are not from utah and dont live here are rather careful and weary not to speak against church because of the whole apostate example. a personal experience of mine while argueing with them on something in particular(private matters so dont ask) that sounded very apostate to them and the Holy Ghost very much came down with force on my side and silenced their arguement with ease. i had never thought of it like this before. i appreciate the post. it resonated with me.

not to brag and i truely do not intend to come off as bragging. but i'd imagine a lot of people wouldnt be able to cope with it any other way. if my parents were any indication their complete shock on the matter that they old and close to 70 that they Holy Ghost very much smacked them in the Head because their 26 year old son was very much right on a principle they had believed for decades. i'd imagine a lot of people wouldnt be able to handle this damning truth.

its interesting to me because ive never followed our prophets perfectly in line i very much question and try and come to the reason for their conclusions. i refuse to accept blind obedience. there is some scripture that says Let us reason together...US being you and The Lord. so i prefer that approach to blind sheeple status.

that is one complaint on those exmormon sites they complain people wont think outside the box or you arent allowed to question things. i suppose i guess they might be right about that. i guess a lot of mormons really are like that....interesting.

The rich irony of this thread is that LDStheories has been using a plethora of scriptures and prophetic statements to support what he's saying- and then he's told that he is, essentially, apostate (while never being shown exactly why he's wrong, according to the scriptures). Why? Because the modern Brethren haven't definitively stated these things as doctrine! Everyone forgets that the whole Church is under severe condemnation for this very reason: vanity and unbelief.

When someone goes further and seeks to remove themselves from said condemnation, and seek the deeper mysteries of the Gospel and study the weightier matters and then try to share what they've been led to by the Holy Spirit of God, they're immediately heckled and mocked and called names, rebuked with a faulty understanding of the scriptures and told they're lacking in faith. The cure for their grievous sin of looking beyond the mark of official Church doctrine, of course, is to put down the "best books" written by our own holy men and return to following the living prophet (whatever that means. Can't find the term or injunction to "follow the prophet" in the scriptures...).

Hyrum Smith's crab theory, indeed...

awesome post. sums up my feelings but i lacked the means to say it properly or with any proof. you provided. kudos. see i was hoping people would discuss and debate the plausability of it all since he did in fact back up what he said very well. however i am not saying what he has said is fact or true. just it is merely possible based on his reasoning and evidence. i do take issue with some points as mentioned previously though but i enjoyed it none the less and was something rather interesting to chew on.

and also in my case. i had no scriptural reference to back up my claim really. the only point of reference was the Holy Ghost was speaking and i was listening. I had no logic behind it. which is quite interesting indeed....sometimes the scriptures are not the cover all thing we assume them to be. Logic and reason mean little when The Spirit speaks.

EDIT: sorry i guess i did have scriptural reference we are commanded to obey The Spirit and Listen to The Spirit. but i took that and ran it into a direction that at face value appears much like LDS_THEORIES guy to go against the entire bulk of the standard works and structure of the church. truely has been an interesting thread.

theres some DC and verse that says and sorry i am murdering the quote but more or less "Behold I am The Lord and it is my church. And what I say goes. IF i say this it is law. if i say that it is law for Behold my word is Law." its somewhere in that polygamy section of DC explaining why polygamy is now illegal. the point is what The Lord says is law. if the Lord says something it is law regardless of prior word or situation logic or reason. His word = Law. so in all cases essentially this means when The Holy Ghost speaks what that Holy Ghost is saying at that moment is ultimate law. it trumps all. any divinely inspired Holy Ghost revelated statement is Law. this may be the fullness of times but we lack the full law. The Holy Ghost can amend it as He sees fit. there are countless times THe Lord has changed his rules to match the rightoueness and wickedness of people theres little reason it cant be done again.

Hyrum Smith's crab theory

i didn't find a very detailed explaination of that. do you have a better one? i'd be curious to read that talk.

Edited January 31, 2012 by kayne

[Matthew0059]

Hyrum Smith's crab theory

i didn't find a very detailed explaination of that. do you have a better one? i'd be curious to read that talk.

Hyrum Smith- the motivation speaker, not the brother of the prophet- gave a talk I have on CD where he explains a concept he calls the "Belief Window", and mentions his "crab theory". (If you search "Hyrum Smith belief window" you can learn about that concept- a lot of truth to it, IMO, but not the subject of this discussion)

The "Crab Theory" is born from the fact that if you put two or more crabs in a bucket, whenever one tries to climb out of the bucket the others will pull it back down with them. According to Hyrum Smith, if you put more than one crab in a shallow bucket without a lid, you don't have to worry about them climbing out- they'll all pull each other down before any one of them can escape.

It's carnal nature that, whenever we see someone attempting to do a task that we deem impossible or too hard for us to achieve, we automatically seek to pull them back down with us. Humans do it by mocking and belittling those who are trying to achieve great things (for example Laman and Lemuel mocking Nephi when he was building the boat)- this is especially true when someone makes a concerted effort to draw closer to the Lord. In fact, overcoming this opposition from your fellow man ("not heeding" them) as well as overcoming the tendency to pull others down is one of the requirements of discipleship.

[rameumptom]

The rich irony of this thread is that LDStheories has been using a plethora of scriptures and prophetic statements to support what he's saying- and then he's told that he is, essentially, apostate (while never being shown exactly why he's wrong, according to the scriptures). Why? Because the modern Brethren haven't definitively stated these things as doctrine! Everyone forgets that the whole Church is under severe condemnation for this very reason: vanity and unbelief.

I do not think he is apostate. I do think there is a major difference between quoting JoD and quoting Pres Monson. JoD has so many theories and speculations in it, including competing theories, that it leaves us with no hope of coming to any decent solutions. For example, the Adam-God theory is so convoluted by so many different factions that it leaves the interpretation wide open. Some groups use it to teach a reincarnation. Guess what? LDS do not believe in reincarnation. We believe in resurrection. The scriptures teach resurrection and not reincarnation. Yet, some still use the words of Brigham Young to go beyond the scriptures to an entirely different level of belief.

We see the same thing when members worship the writings of Elder McConkie regarding evolution and a few other concepts, as well. I knew members who left the Church in June 1978 when the revelation on the priesthood was announced, because it went contrary to Elder McConkie's writings that the blacks would not receive the priesthood until the Millennium.

So, in my view, if a prophet has been dead for a certain amount of time, then we ought to use his writings only as supportive information to things being taught now by living prophets. You'll note that in the PH/RS prophet manuals, the teachings therein are carefully selected to support our current beliefs and not the teachings from a century+ ago. This is the way it should be, and how we should follow the living prophets.

Again, if it isn't found in the scriptures or common teachings of living prophets, then it is old news, and shouldn't be used to promote modern or current teachings.

[Matthew0059]

I do not think he is apostate. I do think there is a major difference between quoting JoD and quoting Pres Monson. JoD has so many theories and speculations in it, including competing theories, that it leaves us with no hope of coming to any decent solutions.

Unless one were to take the Spirit of the Living God as their guide, and not the evolving teachings of the modern prophets. You admit yourself, in this post, that teachings of the living prophets (Presidents of the Church, his two counselors, and the Q of 12) change over time. If we take the most recent living prophets as our guides, then our opinions on various subjects *will* change over time- that is not the nature of eternal truth. Eternal truth is, by definition, eternal and unchanging.

Faith in the unchanging Christ is the central focus of our religion- not the teachings of the living President.

This goes back to the condemnation mentioned earlier: many LDS members choose not to search out the mysteries of Godliness, choose not to take themselves out of Babylon, choose not to rid themselves of all their uncleanliness- and as a result are counted among the Gentiles, not the House of Israel. Our current situation is a direct result of this curse and condemnation. The wheats and the tares are still growing together, the tares are allowed to choke out the wheat a bit, and the teachings are tailored so as not to offend the tares- not to nourish the wheat so that they can bloom into the fullness of the Gospel (which is to receive the Second Comforter and be fully perfected in the Lord Jesus Christ).

So, in my view, if a prophet has been dead for a certain amount of time, then we ought to use his writings only as supportive information to things being taught now by living prophets. You'll note that in the PH/RS prophet manuals, the teachings therein are carefully selected to support our current beliefs and not the teachings from a century+ ago.

You're right in that many of the great teachings of the past have been discarded because of their inconvenience. Many of the teachings of the Prophet Joseph and the early prophets who were tutored under his hand have been neglected and discarded because those "old" teachings haven't been taught recenlty. However, does that mean theyr'e untrue? NO!

Not coincidentally, the average understanding of spiritual things among the members has dramatically decreased, as well as the manifestations of the gifts of the spirit (meaning that the average level of faith has also dramatically decreased). If one compares the lesson manuals from as recently as the 1950's to today's lesson manuals, the difference in quality is glaringly apparent. Nowadays we're left sipping milk from the official Church materials- one has to go outside official channels to get a serious source for our history and the teachings of the early prophets. Unfortunately, wolves inside and outside of the Church are just waiting for those curious souls, to feed them poison instead of nourishing them and thereby destroying their testimony in the living Christ.

This is the way it should be, and how we should follow the living prophets.

I wholeheartedly disagree that this is the way it "should" be. Is it the way it "should" be according to the will of God, as found in D&C 101:43-62, wherein the servants first called to redeem Zion became slothful and were scattered as a result? Maybe... But we should be looking forward to the redemption from our awful state, not rejoicing in our failures and that we're under the yoke of bondage to Babylon and the tares.

[ldstheories_com]

I'm enjoying all of the comments.

I completely agree that all thoughts and theories need to be filtered through the standard works and the scriptures.

Before I go too far into my thoughts I just want to strongly recommend the book Scriptural Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith - Amazon's link is below and it is as low as $7.23. You'll see from this book that practically everything the prophet Joseph Smith says is rooted in scriptures. I personally love this book and all of the insights it has given me - so maybe you don't want it...ha ha..

Amazon.com: Scriptural Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith (9780875796475): Joseph Fielding Smith, Richard C. Galbraith: Books

To Cain the scripture you are referring to about what God says = Law or at least one that I found is at Doctrine and Covenants 132:35-36 

D&C 132: 35-36

35 Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it.

36 Abraham was acommanded to offer his son Isaac; nevertheless, it was written: Thou shalt not kill. Abraham, however, did not refuse, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness.

I was reviewing Scriptural Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith on the below:

"Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation"

The footnotes referenced D&C 132 also coincidentally versus 19, 22-24. Doctrine and Covenants 132:19-24 

These versus reference the eternal progression that is offered to those who enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage. Some key words or sentences are below:

"they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue"

" 22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives,"

24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

So here we have scriptural talk about such ideas and concepts as a continuation of having offspring/children/seed, having no end, being from everlasting to everlasting, continuing life, and having eternal lives - notice ETERNAL LIVES in the plurality.

So such talk about receiving an exaltation and having ongoing callings and continuation of lives for those who enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage is scriptural and in many prophetic discourses given by prophets of old and present.

I also appreciate the reference to D&C 84: 49-59 Doctrine and Covenants 84:49-59 

54 And your aminds in times past have been darkened because of cunbelief, and because you have treated dlightly the things you have received—

55 Which avanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

This makes me point again what is considered scripture:

D&C 68:4 Doctrine and Covenants 68:4 

"4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the aHoly Ghost shall be scripture..."

To me D&C 84:54 that we are under condemnation for includes the Journal of Discourses and Ensigns and all conferences etc.

To point out the precaution though the LDS Church's view on the JOD are at : Journal of Discourses

It's interesting to me in so many church books the JOD are referenced...

I guess the Journal of Discourses are in the same category as the apocrypha....which D&C 91 discusses...Doctrine and Covenants 91:1-6 

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you concerning the Apocrypha—There are many things contained therein that are true, and it is mostly translated correctly;

2 There are many things contained therein that are not true, which are interpolations by the hands of men.

3 Verily, I say unto you, that it is not needful that the Apocrypha should be translated.

4 Therefore, whoso readeth it, let him understand, for the Spirit manifesteth truth;

5 And whoso is enlightened by the Spirit shall obtain benefit therefrom;

6 And whoso receiveth not by the Spirit, cannot be benefited. Therefore it is not needful that it should be translated. Amen.

More discussion on Apocryphal writings from BYU.EDU 2. Apocryphal Literature and the Latter-day Saints | Religious Studies Center

Fun read also..

Basically I'll parrot what people from this forum have told me. Listen the teachings of the modern prophet and the scriptures and prioritize them above the other documents and prophets.

That doesn't mean negate all past writings but become engulfed in the teachings of the modern prophets and the cannonized scriptures and use them as filters for finding all truths.

That's what I try to do..

Anyways I have fun discussing topics and try not to come off as argumentative - If I do I apologize and I love a good discussion! To me having a thorough discussion on thoughts, concepts and theories etc. helps to reaffirm right thinking or affirm wrong thoughts of logic....

Thank you to you all and as always I like to hear your thoughts!!

[kayne]

God.

D&C 84:49-59:

49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin.

50 And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me.

51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin.

52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.

53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

In Pres. Bensons "inaugural" Conference address (first address as Church president), he reminded the members of this fact and declared the condemnation had not been lifted, but was still in effect.

Most members forget that damming truth though, preferring to bask in the false idea that we are a chosen and righteous people because, after all, we have a living prophet- we're the Mormons, children of Abraham and Joseph Smith!

do you have a link to that talk? ive been trying to find it

[rameumptom]

LDSTheories, I agree that most of what Joseph Smith wrote is fairly safe. That said, we need to ensure we are careful on things that are not just "one-offs". The King Follett Discourse is a one-off. Yes, most members believe at least a part of it (including me), but given that there really is little additional official teaching on the topic outside of that one discourse, it leaves it open for a lot of interpretation. That and there were several versions written down of it, each one differing from another in its scope and meaning.

So, it is a LDS belief that God has a father of his own, but it is not a core doctrine.

Matthew seems to be taking some things way to a far end in discourse. When it comes to the "mysteries of godliness" that does not mean trying to understand the Adam-God theory. It means learning what we need to know to stand in the presence of God, to have him reveal himself to us. The A-G is a distraction that leads us away from the real and concrete concepts that Joseph Smith tried to teach us. I think the modern prophets also believe this, and are trying to refocus us on the real meaning of the "mysteries of godliness."

Those old teachings that have been "neglected and discarded" have been rejected primarily because they are not true. Revelation is a tricky thing. Nephi noted in the vision of the Tree of Life that the river was filthy. Lehi didn't notice it, because his mind was caught up on other things. While Lehi first received the vision, Nephi was able to give us a more in-depth understanding of its interpretation, having first heard it from Lehi, and then going into it to understand more.

Modern prophets have the benefit of being able to review, consider, and contemplate the teachings of previous prophets. Modern revelation can trounce older revelation. Brigham Young stated that polygamy would stick around forever as a necessary step in exaltation. Wilford Woodruff ended polygamy, and told us we could be exalted with just monogamy. Many early prophets, from Brigham Young on, taught that the curse of Cain was cast upon blacks and would not be lifted until the Millennium. Modern revelation has lifted the ban earlier than the Millennium, and now prophets are allowing us to say that the ban may not have been put in place by revelation, but was removed by revelation.

Brigham Young even agreed with this. He taught that a living prophet trumped previous prophets. We would be well advised to follow the example of the living prophet and 12, and ill advised (according to D&C 1) to neglect their focus and example.

BTW, the things Pres Benson condemned the Church over was for the Church not reading and studying the Book of Mormon. Or IOW, for not studying our key scripture. He was not referencing Brigham Young's writings, etc. So, let's not misquote our prophets.

[Matthew0059]

do you have a link to that talk? ive been trying to find it

Cleansing the Inner Vessel was the first talk, with The Book of Mormon: Keystone of Our Religion given in the Nov. '86 conference.

To my knowledge, no Church president has even mentioned it since Pres. Benson. If the condemnation were to be lifted, IMO the Church president would most definitely be notified- and let us all know for joy.

Ergo, the condemnation is not lifted, and rests upon "all" the children of Zion- or, in other words, it rests upon the body of the Saints. We learn in the D&C that over a prolonged period of time, if a person remains under condemnation and doesn't repent, they begin to lose the light and truth that they've been given (I started a thread about this a while ago here). In the same way that a person gradually ceases to believe in the greater things of God they once knew, so too has the general membership of the Church stopped believing in some of the greater things they once knew (in some cases, this abandonment has been helped by the leaders of the Church).

This explains the official "falling away" of the Church from many of the choice doctrines taught by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and the other early apostles who were tutored under Joseph and were included in his "inner circle" of truly faithful friends.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Matthew0059

[Matthew0059]

Matthew seems to be taking some things way to a far end in discourse. When it comes to the "mysteries of godliness" that does not mean trying to understand the Adam-God theory. It means learning what we need to know to stand in the presence of God, to have him reveal himself to us.

The "mysteries of godliness" are just that- mysteries of the Kingdom of God that haven't been given to the children of man yet. During the Millenium, many of those mysteries will be revealed to the whole human race, and some things that no man ever knew will be revealed. During our mortal probation, we are able to learn many of those things for ourselves depending on the diligence we give to the light we have already received.

I agree that we don't have to know the whole truth of the Adam-God doctrine in order to stand before Christ and receive our salvation. But salvation is not the end of the Gospel- exaltation is. Exaltation is a whole other matter, and much more light and truth are given in preparation for exaltation (and having one's calling and election made sure in this life) than in preparation for salvation (being wholly cleansed in the blood of Christ). I don't know if knowing the truth of Adam-God is required for having's one C+E in this life- but I wouldn't be surprised.

Some aren't able to, or just don't want to, search out the greater mysteries of the Kingdom of God- to each their own; there is a plan for everyone and no one who does his best is under condemnation. Many who do desire to search out great things get lost along the way due to pride and sin. The trick is not to pull down those who are seeking for the greater mysteries, and let them stand or fall according to the diligence they give to the living word of God.

Revelation is a tricky thing. Nephi noted in the vision of the Tree of Life that the river was filthy. Lehi didn't notice it, because his mind was caught up on other things. While Lehi first received the vision, Nephi was able to give us a more in-depth understanding of its interpretation, having first heard it from Lehi, and then going into it to understand more.

When the modern prophets will declare that they learned their opinions from discourse with angels, and God, and have visions and utilize the full gift of seership, instead of just being "intuitively guided", that will go a long way to settling these issues.

One major sticking point is that there has been no church President or Apostle that has "gazed into heaven" for nearly as long as Joseph Smith had. In fact, there have been more than one who frankly declared they never had a personal visitation of Jesus Christ, and never received angelic messengers.

Add those things to the documented fact that both Joseph and Brigham declared that the Saints in their day (who received much more powerful and frequent manifestations of the Gifts of the Spirit) were stubborn and hard-headed regarding the things of the Kingdom of God, and the issue isn't as clear-cut as you make it out to be, rameumpton.

BTW, the things Pres Benson condemned the Church over was for the Church not reading and studying the Book of Mormon. Or IOW, for not studying our key scripture. He was not referencing Brigham Young's writings, etc. So, let's not misquote our prophets.

The Book of Mormon is a starter course- and plainly testifies of the awful, spiritually blind state of the modern Church.

Not surprisingly, the condemnation hasn't been lifted- and the general feeling among Church members is that we're a good, righteous, and chosen people. In some ways, we are not much better than the Jews were when Christ came to them.

[kayne]

Cleansing the Inner Vessel was the first talk, with The Book of Mormon: Keystone of Our Religion given in the Nov. '86 conference.

To my knowledge, no Church president has even mentioned it since Pres. Benson. If the condemnation were to be lifted, IMO the Church president would most definitely be notified- and let us all know for joy.

Ergo, the condemnation is not lifted, and rests upon "all" the children of Zion- or, in other words, it rests upon the body of the Saints. We learn in the D&C that over a prolonged period of time, if a person remains under condemnation and doesn't repent, they begin to lose the light and truth that they've been given (I started a thread about this a while ago here). In the same way that a person gradually ceases to believe in the greater things of God they once knew, so too has the general membership of the Church stopped believing in some of the greater things they once knew (in some cases, this abandonment has been helped by the leaders of the Church).

This explains the official "falling away" of the Church from many of the choice doctrines taught by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and the other early apostles who were tutored under Joseph and were included in his "inner circle" of truly faithful friends.

thanks for that. those were really good talks

I agree that we don't have to know the whole truth of the Adam-God doctrine in order to stand before Christ and receive our salvation. But salvation is not the end of the Gospel- exaltation is. Exaltation is a whole other matter, and much more light and truth are given in preparation for exaltation (and having one's calling and election made sure in this life) than in preparation for salvation (being wholly cleansed in the blood of Christ). I don't know if knowing the truth of Adam-God is required for having's one C+E in this life- but I wouldn't be surprised.

i agree with this statement alot. i just dont think we have an accurate understanding of the theory. also Young was prophet for 30 years so i highly doubt he was wrong. but since there is no correct interuptation of it it is just interesting to read about but not something i intend to go crazy over. ive read it and its interesting.

When the modern prophets will declare that they learned their opinions from discourse with angels, and God, and have visions and utilize the full gift of seership, instead of just being "intuitively guided", that will go a long way to settling these issues.

One major sticking point is that there has been no church President or Apostle that has "gazed into heaven" for nearly as long as Joseph Smith had. In fact, there have been more than one who frankly declared they never had a personal visitation of Jesus Christ, and never received angelic messengers.

i am curious who has said this? and when? i find this idea rather fascinating and interesting as i had always thought part of being prophet meant at some point you received grand visions. but i guess i must be wrong.

The Book of Mormon is a starter course- and plainly testifies of the awful, spiritually blind state of the modern Church.

and you know on that note....speaking of personal experience. since I do have said gift of visions. i always thought prophets had it and used it constantly i mean why wouldnt you right? then a couple of a years ago i realized if it took me 20 years of my life(being 25 or so at the time) to fully accept and grasp and act on dreams then prophets wouldnt magically overnight just come into the gift of visions theyd need time and training to fully utilize it. to fully accept it. it took me 20 years having it from being a little child to accept it. how then would an old man suddenly feel waking up and piercing into the heavens feel? shocked and disoriented would be my guess and possibly dismissing it as a fantasy dream.

furthermore thinking on it joseph smith seemed early on not quite sure how to handle his new found gifts even losing them for a season. it seemed it took him quite a while to fully grasp and comprehend his ability to have visions too before he really learned to handle it and act on it. it seemed to The Lord had to teach him how to use his gifts including visions which meant Joseph would screw up now and then for a while. one prime point is the losing of the 116 pages. a fully mastery of the gift of visions and revelations would mean Joseph would of accepted No the first time. yet we clearly see He did not and as such likely hadnt quite mastered this skill yet.

more to the point. while any prophet from smith onward has all the keys and as such as the rights to seership and visions. if for example Thomas Monson becoming prophet at 81 has never had any real vision. and it takes such a long time to fully understand and accept and utililize visions. then of course We arent going to hear of modern prophets speak and say they conversed with angels and Jesus. and too another point we see Nephi truely wanted his fathers visions and so he saught after them. but there is a bit of a gap between him and the next person that pierces into the heavens with an elaborate vision. and reading the book of samuel last night or the night before it was interesting it noted while there was a prophet the visions of heaven were sealed off from them.

so i guess my conclusion would be the current apostles who are usually there for 30-40 years before being made a prophet none of them in all that time attempt to utilize and master their potential gift of visions so we never get a prophet capable of handling such manifestations of the spirit. it seems then we havent had a prophet in a while that has truely saught after visions and dreams.

15 And the king said that a aseer is greater than a prophet.

16 And Ammon said that a seer is a revelator and a prophet also; and a gift which is greater can no man have, except he should possess the power of God, which no man can; yet a man may have great power given him from God.

17 But a seer can know of things which are past, and also of things which are to come, and by them shall all things be revealed, or, rather, shall secret things be made manifest, and hidden things shall come to light, and things which are not known shall be made known by them, and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known.

there we see in mosiah. a seer is a prophet. but a prophet is not neccesarily a seer. interesting to note i had never put all this together till now. we can have a prophet that is incapable of visions and thus incapable of knowing the past present and future something we normally think all prophets are capable of.

perhaps when we get prophets that are capable of being seers again we can have all this cleared up?

seeing my other thread where i had that epiphany more on that i had come to realize i needed to nurture and make my gift of dreams grow i had felt i had just taken it for granted. thanks to this post and those two talks my blessing warns me about being puffed up in pride. i need to nurture and make this gift grow and fully utilize it not just accept it. for it truely is rare and special. that Heavenly Father has spent 20+ years trying to make me comprehend this gift and use it to its full potential knowing full well it would take that long because apparently He cant just give it to people over night. it needs to be groomed over time.

to be clear i do not mean to be little any prophets. they are chosen for their time and to do a certain work. i am just making a point. Monson is the prophet and i accept that. I just now accept perhaps for whatever reason he doesnt fully utilize his keys of prophet and perhaps could be unlike my original thought he might just be a prophet not a seer and so doesnt use his keys of seership. so back off any i am a crazy apostate that just blasted Monson. i did no such thing.(this is aimed at no one in particular)

Not surprisingly, the condemnation hasn't been lifted- and the general feeling among Church members is that we're a good, righteous, and chosen people. In some ways, we are not much better than the Jews were when Christ came to them.

you know growing up outside of utah i always thought utah would be some mormon haven of awesomeness. ive realized its not. in fact isnt there a prophecy of the end days that SLC will become so corrupted that the leaders of the church will abandon it? i seem to recall my parents telling me this. i guess this speaks volumes of the zion in utah really does not exist and is fact probably quite the opposite. ive learned a utah mormon and a non utah mormon are entirely two different things almost two different religions in a lot of ways.

this thread has truely been fascinating.

[Matthew0059]

i am curious who has said this? and when? i find this idea rather fascinating and interesting as i had always thought part of being prophet meant at some point you received grand visions. but i guess i must be wrong.

Well, receiving visions isn't the same as receiving a personal visitation of Christ (receiving the Second Comforter)- many who receive personal visitations are never called as official apostles of the Lord's Church.

Heber J. Grant was the one who declared he never sought a visitation with Christ. I don't have the reference but I can find it. Brigham Young also said he was earnestly hoping that by the time he was 80 he would be counted worthy to receive visitations. Sadly, he died at 77- but, IMO, he was visited by Joseph Smith on his (Brigham's) deathbed.

the rights to seership and visions. if for example Thomas Monson becoming prophet at 81 has never had any real vision. and it takes such a long time to fully understand and accept and utililize visions. then of course We arent going to hear of modern prophets speak and say they conversed with angels and Jesus. and too another point we see Nephi truely wanted his fathers visions and so he saught after them. but there is a bit of a gap between him and the next person that pierces into the heavens with an elaborate vision. and reading the book of samuel last night or the night before it was interesting it noted while there was a prophet the visions of heaven were sealed off from them.

I think some of the modern prophets and apostles have visions and visitations from heavenly beings. In fact, I am 100% positive that at least one apostle is worthy to appear before the Father (not just Christ- appearing before the Father comes after appearing before Christ).

The major problems arise from the prophets not testifying of those things openly. I think that's a direct result of the condemnation of the Church- so we're left to rely upon our spiritual discernment. I firmly believe many Church Presidents and apostles have seen Christ since Joseph Smith- but we don't know who, or what positions they held. It's for a want of plainness and faith, that an in-depth study of the Church's history drives so many away from the faith.

so i guess my conclusion would be the current apostles who are usually there for 30-40 years before being made a prophet none of them in all that time attempt to utilize and master their potential gift of visions so we never get a prophet capable of handling such manifestations of the spirit. it seems then we havent had a prophet in a while that has truely saught after visions and dreams.

I don't agree with this, brother. You yourself have the gift of visions/dreams, according to your own testimony- would you say you're better than the apostles? I think it's safe to assume many of the Brethren do as well. I think the errors arise when we assume every apostle is essentially infallible in all that they teach and do. As ram stated, apostles since Smith and Young have publicly disagreed with the earlier teachings. So either Smith and Young were fallible, or the latter prophets were fallible, or both- the point is not to lean to our own understanding, but to follow the Spirit of God.

[kayne]

I don't agree with this, brother. You yourself have the gift of visions/dreams, according to your own testimony- would you say you're better than the apostles? I think it's safe to assume many of the Brethren do as well. I think the errors arise when we assume every apostle is essentially infallible in all that they teach and do. As ram stated, apostles since Smith and Young have publicly disagreed with the earlier teachings. So either Smith and Young were fallible, or the latter prophets were fallible, or both- the point is not to lean to our own understanding, but to follow the Spirit of God.

yea i agree. but my point was i thought prophet apostle meant grand revelations at some point and apparently i am wrong. i am not saying i am better. i am not saying i am worse. i am not really saying where i stand. i do also find it bad to assume prophet means better than your average church member because that is simply not true. ultimately the only thing a prophet has over your regular member is He receives guidance for the whole church that is ultimately it. we all essentially rely on The Spirit to guide us and in that we are all basically the same some are just further than others.

i do think both are falliable. however i do not think any more recent brethern have really tried to understand the more complex points of young smith as well.

I think some of the modern prophets and apostles have visions and visitations from heavenly beings. In fact, I am 100% positive that at least one apostle is worthy to appear before the Father (not just Christ- appearing before the Father comes after appearing before Christ).

The major problems arise from the prophets not testifying of those things openly. I think that's a direct result of the condemnation of the Church- so we're left to rely upon our spiritual discernment. I firmly believe many Church Presidents and apostles have seen Christ since Joseph Smith- but we don't know who, or what positions they held. It's for a want of plainness and faith, that an in-depth study of the Church's history drives so many away from the faith.

i agree if they have visions unless they are sworn to secrecy on an issue they should testify openly of these things they are the leaders of the church afterall. i guess the nut we are trying to crack is why dont they? or do they even receive them on a frequent basis? is the leadership of the church part of the reason it is under condemnation? as my scripture pointed out prohpets arent always seers so perhaps they arent using this fully and therefore it is limited. sure they have the keys to it but doesnt mean said keys are being used.

yea i would sincerely hope some since smith have seen angels and Jesus and whatnot. i'd hate to think the church is that starved for the visions of heaven.

i do agree an indepth study of church history is confusing at best. ive tried to figure it out. im often more confused than when i started.

Well, receiving visions isn't the same as receiving a personal visitation of Christ (receiving the Second Comforter)- many who receive personal visitations are never called as official apostles of the Lord's Church.

its hard to say how many have visions. most probably dont speak about it. i am only really speaking about as it is relevant and i am annouymous online. not to say no one knows but if there are others i suspect they are in hiding. also many might confuse this as rising up and claiming to be a prophet and going out of the order of the church so thus they never speak up when it couldnt be further from the truth. there is nothing that says i need be a prophet to receive revelation or dreams yet if on sunday i spoke up on testimony meaning and said i had a dream the names i would be called would have no end even if my dreams were only to prove my own testimony the whole point of fast and testimony.

the point is i'd love it if people could speak freely of personal visitations without this fear which i have learned is very true. my parents have cautioned against speaking so openly of dreams(not that i ever really have heck just convincing them was one heck of a feat). heck even my dreams have cautioned against it. so this fear of a backlash is very real. which is a shame it would be wonderful if all of us in hiding came out and spoke up freely without getting the book tossed at us by those that clearly do not understand. but sadly for that reason i can never on these fast and testimony days ever say how i acquired my testimony aka via dreams.

irony....personal visitations have become a taboo subject in a church that prides itsself on personal revelation.

Heber J. Grant was the one who declared he never sought a visitation with Christ. I don't have the reference but I can find it. Brigham Young also said he was earnestly hoping that by the time he was 80 he would be counted worthy to receive visitations. Sadly, he died at 77- but, IMO, he was visited by Joseph Smith on his (Brigham's) deathbed.

see im glad i posted. i did not neccessarly know the differences in levels of visions and visistations. its not exactly as if there is an overwhelming amount of info on the subject or if there is i do not know truely where to find it so i am left to stumble in the dark sometimes on the matter. so there is promptings, revelations, visions, and Christ actually coming to you, and after that Heavenly Father. i guess that would be the order if i had to make one.

if you can find it that would be awesome. if not the world wont end.

[Matthew0059]

if you can find it that would be awesome. if not the world wont end.

I found it. Unfortunately, the only direct reference I can find right now comes from D. Michael Quinn's Extensions of Power. I've never read it, but I hesitate to accept it as fact- as D. Michael Quinn was excommunicated as part of the September Six. Some (within and without) the Church say his history was spot on, while others say some of his books were good while others were bad, while others say all were astray. I don't know- I've never read them. I hope, however, that this doesn't equate to quoting anti-Mormon material, because I can take it down without hesitation.

‘I have never prayed to see the Savoior,’ [Heber J. Grant] told a tabernacle meeting in 1942. ‘I have seen so many men fall because of some great manifestations to them.’ He came to deny knowledge of such experiences for his colleagues: ‘I know of no instance where the Lord has appeared to an individual since His appearance to the prophet Joseph Smith.’

All google searches for the various keywords in that phrase return instances of that direct quote. I'll continue searching for a second, verifiable source. I'm sure Quinn referenced that quote- but I don't have a copy of the book (and frankly, don't want to acquire one).

Conversely, Truman Madsen tells a story when Grant did see a vision involving Christ (not, IMO, the same as receiving the Second Comforter, but it does seem to contradict Quinn's claim). I can only find it secondhand on blog comments here.

Madsen [said] that Heber was sorely vexed by feelings of inadequacy early in his apostolic calling. He was only in his twenties and surrounded by mature spiritual giants. To add to that, one of the brethren in the twelve was preaching that no man should be an apostle without having had an open vision of Christ first. (It should be noted that while this is not accurate, it implies that most of the brethren had experienced such visions). Brother Grant had horrible self doubts but fought through them. Brother Madsen then reports that later while brother Grant was traveling alone (on a Mule I believe) he did indeed have an open vision of many of the dead leaders of the restoration (including Joseph, Brigham, and his own father) in a council with the Lord Jesus Christ at its head. It was the open vision of Christ that he had sought. He compared his experience to Lehi’s visions – he saw with spiritual eyes rather than his natural eyes.

ETA: In Duane Boyce's review of Quinn's Extensions of Power, he cites another version of that event (A Betrayal of Trust - Duane Boyce - FARMS Review - Volume 9 - Issue 2).

Whether Madsen's (and/or Quinn's) account is true, and whether such a vision of merely seeing Christ is tantamount to receiving a personal visitation of Christ, are good questions. It leaves us wondering: why aren't there more clearly defined instances of apostles boldly declaring yes, we have seen the Christ- He lives! Christ admonished every member of the Nephite multitude who beheld His image and felt His body to testify that they had seen Him, and that He lived- it was a commandment (3 Nephi 12:2) *especially* to the Nephite apostles (3 Nephi 18:25). Joseph Smith admonished every Apostle to seek an interview with the Christ, so that they too could testify that they had seen felt Him, and *know* that He lives.

So either the commandment has been changed since the time of Joseph Smith- and no one told us (ETA: maybe they have, Pres. Packer said they've been "commanded" not to talk of those "sacred interviews", but whence came that commandment?)- or the current apostles either aren't receiving visitations from Christ, or aren't following that commandment. I don't know what the answer is- but not all is well in Zion.

Be careful treading this ground... There are many wolves who want to sift the Saints as wheat.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Matthew0059

[kayne]

I found it. Unfortunately, the only direct reference I can find right now comes from D. Michael Quinn's Extensions of Power. I've never read it, but I hesitate to accept it as fact- as D. Michael Quinn was excommunicated as part of the September Six. Some (within and without) the Church say his history was spot on, while others say some of his books were good while others were bad, while others say all were astray. I don't know- I've never read them. I hope, however, that this doesn't equate to quoting anti-Mormon material, because I can take it down without hesitation.

the september six i know i have heard of them. i wikipediad it yea that sounds familar. though that is all i know. it says he is a mormon historian. i suspect there is probably some accurate history there. i do like you have to question if it is accurate completely or not. and while i realize the danger of stumbling onto anti-mormon material i do find it wrong not to acknowledge it and be aware of it. i even find it somewhat healthy to know some of it afterall i dont think your faith can be tested without adversity. a little trial by fire is good for the soul.

‘I have never prayed to see the Savoior,’ [Heber J. Grant] told a tabernacle meeting in 1942. ‘I have seen so many men fall because of some great manifestations to them.’ He came to deny knowledge of such experiences for his colleagues: ‘I know of no instance where the Lord has appeared to an individual since His appearance to the prophet Joseph Smith.’

All google searches for the various keywords in that phrase return instances of that direct quote. I'll continue searching for a second, verifiable source. I'm sure Quinn referenced that quote- but I don't have a copy of the book (and frankly, don't want to acquire one).

his alarm for manifestations of the spirit sounds troubling. i do wonder what the harm is in seeking such things? seems to contradict the scriptures constantly telling us to seek The Lord which has to whether in this life or the next climax at seeing Him face to face. furthermore so much scripture encourages us to seek the Spirit of The Lord in all things.

Conversely, Truman Madsen tells a story when Grant did see a vision involving Christ (not, IMO, the same as receiving the Second Comforter, but it does seem to contradict Quinn's claim). I can only find it secondhand on blog comments here.

hm interesting ill have to read it. i did just read granted on a rather anti mormon kind of site a lot of various quotes and interviews that speculate on how much revelation prophets really are getting. so yea im certainly curious to hear about it from a side that isnt just out to bring down the church. but at first glance that site had that Gordon hinckley interview quoted as well.

ETA: In Duane Boyce's review of Quinn's Extensions of Power, he cites another version of that event (A Betrayal of Trust - Duane Boyce - FARMS Review - Volume 9 - Issue 2).

Whether Madsen's (and/or Quinn's) account is true, and whether such a vision of merely seeing Christ is tantamount to receiving a personal visitation of Christ, are good questions. It leaves us wondering: why aren't there more clearly defined instances of apostles boldly declaring yes, we have seen the Christ- He lives! Christ admonished every member of the Nephite multitude who beheld His image and felt His body to testify that they had seen Him, and that He lived- it was a commandment (3 Nephi 12:2) *especially* to the Nephite apostles (3 Nephi 18:25). Joseph Smith admonished every Apostle to seek an interview with the Christ, so that they too could testify that they had seen felt Him, and *know* that He lives.

hmm that was interesting. to say the least it is probably impossible to know for sure. and i would love to think since it is BYU it is trustworthy however i know that is simply not true. i'd have to read up on the author. however this is what i think we need more of the church or at least staunch believers of the faith providing a counter balance to some obvious lies and slander whether quinn is lieing here or not who truely knows. i would like to think getting excommunicated happened for good reason.

So either the commandment has been changed since the time of Joseph Smith- and no one told us (ETA: maybe they have, Pres. Packer said they've been "commanded" not to talk of those "sacred interviews", but whence came that commandment?)- or the current apostles either aren't receiving visitations from Christ, or aren't following that commandment. I don't know what the answer is- but not all is well in Zion.

yea sounds about right honestly. i do find that odd. once again it would be nice if current general authorities would set the record clean. that is interesting though being commanded not to speak of these things? seems to contradict the scriptures quite a bit actually. and joseph smith as well.

but not all is well in Zion.

i know you have somewhat mentioned why you think this....but i'd be curious to hear your full explanation. as since moving to utah for school ive had a similar gut feeling really that all is not well here. it seems ive just had the feeling that for the mormon stronghold of utah it isnt as strong as it should be like something is amiss. also in general we do know the times are getting worse. this does most certainly mean LDS folks will fall away. and some of the very elect will be deceived at times. though yea if apostles and prophets are not quite in tune with visitations and visions and revelations as they should...truely indeed trouble is ahead.

Be careful treading this ground... There are many wolves who want to sift the Saints as wheat.

i am aware. i appreciate the concern. however i feel obtaining a better knowledge of our history is crucial so to what end i can do that i need to try. i hope i can get a better understanding of our history. i feel it neccessary. hopefully i will have some discernment on the matter. we shall see eh.

[Matthew0059]

his alarm for manifestations of the spirit sounds troubling. i do wonder what the harm is in seeking such things? seems to contradict the scriptures constantly telling us to seek The Lord which has to whether in this life or the next climax at seeing Him face to face. furthermore so much scripture encourages us to seek the Spirit of The Lord in all things.

The fear of falling after receiving great things is very real. You cannot become a Son of Perdition until after receiving the fullness of the light of Christ. Also, IIRC, at the time it was even less uncommon than now for men to rise up, claim revelation, and start a splinter group. Perhaps Heber was referring to this as well.