Why did we baptize Hitler


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I saw this and was surprised. Is it because the church believes everyone deserves a second chance, even some of the worst people like Hitler?

Christ died that all might live. No one can do any amount of evil that will be able to counter what Christ has done. Edited by Dravin
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I find it interesting that a quick look out on new.familysearch.org shows many listings for an ADOLF HITLER with a spouse of EVA BRAUN and a death date of 1945. I've clicked on a good 5 or 6 of them and so far every one shows the ordinances as "Not Available". You couldn't even temple prep these if you wanted to.

Any super Family History pro's out there who know what would cause a record to be "Not Available" for putting through the temple ready process? I'm pretty sure that I have heard of some individuals contacting the church directly and requesting that ordinance work NOT be done for certain ancestors. Additionally, it wouldn't surprise me if the Church has either supressed the information regarding what work has or hasn't been done for him or has in fact blocked his work from being done so as to avoid controversy on the subject.

Just a bit of random speculation on my part.

I still do find the information on new.familysearch.org interesting.

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My other comment on this thread, unrelated to the logistical one I posed earlier, is this:

First, who are we to judge whether or not a deceased person "deserves" or "qualifies" for vicarious ordinance work to be performed? We are asked only to perform the work, not determine the worthiness of those for whom we are performing it.

Second, short of the actual doctors who had the opportunity to observe and diagnose Hitler's emotional and psychological health, I would venture to say that no mortal is qualified to determine whether he was or was not mentally or psychologically accountable or to what degree he was (is) accountable for his actions. Again, we couldn't judge this adequately even on our most spiritual and open minded of days, in my opinion.

Third, let's say for arguments sake that Hitler is culpable for his actions --to whatever degree-- and he is now in the post-mortal world of spirits being taught or having been taught the Gospel. He would now be attempting (should he be choosing to do so) to repent for his actions without a body, without a mortal life, and without the opportunity to try and make amends in the way that one of us would still have by continuing to occupy this mortal existence. The process of repentance, we have been told by our modern prophets, is so much more difficult to do after we have left this mortal existence. I cannot even imagine what it would take for Hitler to undertake the repentance process in his current state.

Fourth, Hitler is one of our brothers. He made the same decision we did before coming here. He KEPT his first estate. He may have fought just as valiantly as any one of us or others in the cause of Christ... the cause of Agency... the cause of our Father and Elder Brother. He was certainly loved by some if not even many of his pre-mortal brothers and sisters. He no doubt loved as well. He came to this earth by choice and also chose to have the veil placed over his eyes and mind to then try his faith... just as each of us have done. I cannot even imagine the horror which must (may) have filled his heart when he crossed back to the existence of spirits and began to have a view into what actions he had performed while in this mortal life and how many countless millions of lives were then and would be impacted in some way by his decisions.

Fifth, I am grateful that I, you, and "even Hitler" will be judged by a loving Father and advocated for by an equally loving elder Brother. Let's see to it that he has the opportunity to accept or reject all the ordinances of salvation. I am sure the cup from which he will have to drink is most bitter indeed.

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I find it interesting that a quick look out on new.familysearch.org shows many listings for an ADOLF HITLER with a spouse of EVA BRAUN and a death date of 1945. I've clicked on a good 5 or 6 of them and so far every one shows the ordinances as "Not Available". You couldn't even temple prep these if you wanted to.

Any super Family History pro's out there who know what would cause a record to be "Not Available" for putting through the temple ready process? I'm pretty sure that I have heard of some individuals contacting the church directly and requesting that ordinance work NOT be done for certain ancestors. Additionally, it wouldn't surprise me if the Church has either supressed the information regarding what work has or hasn't been done for him or has in fact blocked his work from being done so as to avoid controversy on the subject.

Just a bit of random speculation on my part.

I still do find the information on new.familysearch.org interesting.

Ya if someone requeests that a deceased relative to not have the ordinances done for, then it's locked down as best as possible.

This is the case for a majority of the jews that were killed in the holocaust.

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Let us also not forget those in The Book of Mormon who were willfully going about to destroy the Lord's work and became great men for the Lord in mortality, hence not knowing anything about the false spirits driving Adolph, nor the circumstances under which those false spirits entered into his life (by his own means or the sins of others), whether he was completely fooled or knowingly put Christ to an open shame such as the 'sons of perdition', is the VERY reason we shouldn't entertain the notion too seriously. Just know (based on these simple non-arguable facts) that it IS possible with Christ, and too much more discussion would be considered gossip on this topic since it is between Adolph and Christ, regardless of who he was in history or that he 'has gone the way of all the earth' deserves no less consideration from the saints.

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Are you sure Hitler was baptized? Can you provide evidence for this? I don't see how he would be allowed to be baptized when the lds faith prevents people in life from being baptized for having done less than being responsible for the deaths of 50 million people.

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Well that doesn't make any sense to me. I find myself totally confused by that. I've heard of people not being allowed to be baptized because of things like abortion but that's only in some circumstances. Some people have been allowed to join if they had an abortion. I remember hearing of one lady who smothered her child in world war 2 to prevent the Germans from finding her and the people with her. The Germans still found them but she was not allowed to join because of that.

I don't understand this though. If someone kills another in cold blood, aren't they usually if not always prohibited from joining the lds faith? So I am completely confused on how someone could baptize Adolf Hitler after being responsible for the deaths of 50 million. I find myself very curious on how that went through.

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Well that doesn't make any sense to me. I find myself totally confused by that. I've heard of people not being allowed to be baptized because of things like abortion but that's only in some circumstances. Some people have been allowed to join if they had an abortion. I remember hearing of one lady who smothered her child in world war 2 to prevent the Germans from finding her and the people with her. The Germans still found them but she was not allowed to join because of that.

I don't understand this though. If someone kills another in cold blood, aren't they usually if not always prohibited from joining the lds faith? So I am completely confused on how someone could baptize Adolf Hitler after being responsible for the deaths of 50 million. I find myself very curious on how that went through.

dunno if hitler will be ever allowed or not... however thats Gods call at this point in time and it is better for us to err on the side of forgiveness, just in case.

as for people in this life, if they have murdered or had abortions before knowing the gospel, the case for them is brought before the apostles. Some have been permitted to join and others not.

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Or carelessnes.

As far as I know everyone gets baptised who was over the age of 8. Hitler qualifies. The question is does the ordinance do him any practical good or is he going to reject it (or do his actions prevent him from being able to accept it). Luckily it's not my place to decide that and the Church has taken the approach of erring on the side of caution by baptising everyone (who's ancestors don't object*). The news that Hitler was baptised (and other ordinances) is only scandalous to those who assume it's an automatic pass to the Celestial Kingdom/Heaven regardless of what he did in this life and the person he made himself into.

* I presume that at some point they will eventually be baptised though, even if it takes until the Millennium.

Edited by Dravin
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Remember one thing also. Hitler as well as all the rest of the worst in human history received a body and came to Earth.

Thus they were on the side of righteousness in the Spirit World. Anyone of us could return there and find out he is our best friend on that side! He came to Earth to be tried and tested in order to be like Heavenly Father. While here on Earth his acts are horrendous, he was worthy to come to Earth in the Lord's eyes.

In most family trees there are people who committed horrible deeds, every bit as bad as Hitler just on a much smaller scale. Yet we don't pass judgment on them and decide we should not do the work for that person for this reason etc. We have to remember the Lord's plan works from the spiritual world not the Earthly world so the rational is beyond our true understanding while we are on this side.

I love each of my three children, my love is not conditional on their acts or choices. My reaction to those depend on the choices but not my love for each of them. The Lord's love can be no less, the most despised people on Earth are still his sons and daughters. If a wayward child repented from unworthy deeds would you not forgive them and help them?

I am not defending Hitler or those like him, but from a parent-child relationship I can see Heavenly Father forgiving anyone of us no matter how grave the wrong we had done, like it or not he is our Brother in Heaven. He is entitled to the same opportunities each of us has before our Father in Heaven.

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Remember one thing also. Hitler as well as all the rest of the worst in human history received a body and came to Earth.

Thus they were on the side of righteousness in the Spirit World. Anyone of us could return there and find out he is our best friend on that side! He came to Earth to be tried and tested in order to be like Heavenly Father. While here on Earth his acts are horrendous, he was worthy to come to Earth in the Lord's eyes.

:threadhijacked:

Does mortal birth guarantee some measure of premortal worthiness? I'm not sure what the official doctrine is (or if there is one); but my gut is that the Lord gives us enough rope to either build a bridge to Him or hang ourselves in spectacular fashion. I'm not necessarily convinced that Hitler--or, say, Cain--was "worthy" to come to earth, any more than I'm convinced that John C. Bennett was "worthy" to be a counselor to Joseph Smith. For whatever reason--the calling went forth, the individual accepted, and the Lord chose not to intervene until a significant amount of damage had been done.

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:threadhijacked:

Does mortal birth guarantee some measure of premortal worthiness? I'm not sure what the official doctrine is (or if there is one); but my gut is that the Lord gives us enough rope to either build a bridge to Him or hang ourselves in spectacular fashion. I'm not convinced that Hitler was "worthy" to come to earth, any more than I'm convinced that John C. Bennett was "worthy" to be a counselor to Joseph Smith. For whatever reason--the calling went forth, the individual accepted, and the Lord chose not to intervene until a significant amount of damage was done.

I think he's speaking of the pre-mortal council. To have made it here (Earth) means one did not side with Satan. As a consequence those who kept their first estate where given the opportunity to add to it by coming to this earth, those who did not were not given that opportunity. Arguably Hitler was more worthy to come to Earth than say Rebellous Spirit #23456 (or Lucifer if you want to pull out the big guns) by virtue of siding with God. I suppose one can debate whether one was made 'worthy' by said decision or if one simply didn't deny themselves an opportunity.

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it just annoys me personally because i've had family in the Holocaust and when someone is baptized even in death, they are cleansed of their sins. but nonetheless, i think that when he goes to be judged, they will know who he is and despite his baptism and being cleansed of his sins, there is no way he will be forgiven for what he did

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it just annoys me personally because i've had family in the Holocaust and when someone is baptized even in death, they are cleansed of their sins.

With all due respect . . . as per LDS theology, no, they are not. We are cleansed by receiving the Holy Ghost, not by baptism (or even by the ordinance of confirmation).

The idea of baptism "washing our sins away" is very picturesque, and makes for charming primary songs. But it is also technically incorrect, from a theological standpoint.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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I think he's speaking of the pre-mortal council. To have made it here (Earth) means one did not side with Satan. As a consequence those who kept their first estate where given the opportunity to add to it by coming to this earth, those who did not were not given that opportunity. Arguably Hitler was more worthy to come to Earth than say Rebellous Spirit #23456 (or Lucifer if you want to pull out the big guns) by virtue of siding with God. I suppose one can debate whether one was made 'worthy' by said decision or if one simply didn't deny themselves an opportunity.

I happen to know Rebellious Spirit #23456, and believe me, Hitler was no RS23456.

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Well, but what about the possibility that someone may have "lied" in order to get a body. Might God have allowed something like that?

At any rate he didn't engage in open rebellion, which is arguably better than engaging in open rebellion. We can come up with scenarios out the ying yang if we want. However, I don't think the assumption, that those who came to earth (or will come) and were given the chance to experience additional glory may have done something a tad bit more right than those who openly rebelled against God and were denied any and all glory, is out in left field.

But as we're operating in an almost complete vacuum of knowledge here who really knows?

Edited by Dravin
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The really crazy thing... I can't say that I am any better than Hitler or that I will be in a better place than Hitler in the eternities. And that's even after my grandfather died in WWII. And I am 100% sure I can still say that even if I'm descended from a family annihilated personally by Hitler.

Because, I see 3 crosses on that hill - Jesus Christ being one of them, and to his side a criminal granted a place in the eternities.

And I've worn vengefulness before and it was like 80's fashion - it never did look good on me.

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