Possession / exorcism


twort
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I believe it but you have to realize that a personal "experience" may not be what actually happened.

Here is a guy that felt sick of body and mind for some time. His appearance alarmed his wife. Joseph Smith was called in and he could immediately tell that he was "suffering very much in his mind". Those are his words, not mine. And then it sounds to me like he had a seizure. He was sick, confused and then suddenly went into distortions, ultimately resulting in what sounds to me like opisthotonos - "he was caught up off the floor of the apartment and tossed about most fearfully" Opisthotonos is a sudden contraction of the body that causes an arching of the back, head back and appears as if someone comes off the floor. I've seen that myself, several times. It is a very scary thing. Finally Joseph gets hold of his hand. After a seizure people are confused and say all sorts of strange, half awake - half asleep things. Joseph blessed him and then he was calm.

At the end of the story, he says "As soon as consciousness returned, his bodily weakness was such that we were obliged to lay him upon his bed and wait upon him for some time." So, his descriptions of seeing a devil leave and him flying up to the ceiling were while he was unconscious.

Yes, the people around him saw Joseph calm him down through the power of God and rebuke a "devil", in other words an ailment of the body, possibly. Newel said that he could see a 'devil fly out of him' at a time that he was very much suffering in his mind or he was mostly unconscious. Everyone around him didn't see a 'devil fly out of him'. That was his confused or post-ictal perception of what happened.

As a nurse I have seen this scene 100 times over. I have even seen Elders come in at the end of the seizure and calm the patient down and stop the agitation after the seizure itself ends.

I am not saying it wasn't a devil "possession" I am just leaving an open mind about what "possession" means with a possible definition being the corrupted and therefore 'evil' body that we all have overpowering the spirit via ailment. And the power of healing revealing itself in the same way people describe exorcism.

I would pose the question, if he was truly possessed by a devil to the point of not controlling his body, how would he maintain memory of the event as if he was still himself, talking in the first person? If he was possessed then why did he say he saw a "devil fly out of him"? He wasn't "him" at that point if he was "possessed" unless the possession was actually his own body suppressing his spirit, then it would still be 'him'. Either he was 'possessed' and then he wasn't himself or the devil spirit was only trying to possess him and never really did or the 'devil spirit' an ailment of his own body that Joseph removed.

Of those options, it wouldn't make it any less of a miracle if it was an ailment, like a seizure. The human mind tries to interpret what is experienced based on what is familiar. I would think that Joseph and Newel and the adults in the room had very little experience with seizures but had some experience with stories of 'devil possession'.

Sure, you can interpret it that way too. Temporary insanity is definitely a possibility. But then, you can interpret Joseph Smith's First Vision as some major schizophrenia or the angels flying around Kirtland Temple as a mass hallucination or...

etc. etc. etc.

The fact of the matter is - Catholic Priests are trained to determine what is what - you can say they're all easily led by the nose and don't know what they're talking about, or you can take it for what they say they are.

And the fact of the matter is - that the LDS Church surely does not discount the possibility, especially when they publish such articles as Newel Knight's testimony in the Liahona and the Ensign and call it exorcism. So, when I witness an exorcism, I tend to take it for what the professionals say it is - Catholic or otherwise.

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I've often thought that many of our diseases are directly or indirectly affected by the demons that tempt, torment, and sometimes possess us. We now find that stress causes, contributes, or increases the likelihood of many illnesses. The stresses of being tempted and bombarded by such, could definitely affect us.

I believe that mental illness is accompanied by demons (not necessarily possession). They can often push our buttons when no one else can. And if they drive a person into absolute hell, then (for them) it has become a victory. Yet, I believe Christ suffered all things so he may know how to succor and heal us.

So the man possessed with Legion showed mental illness. Yet it was healed by Jesus, partially by driving away the evil spirits involved in driving the man mad. It may not have been the man's fault. He may not have sought after the demons, but rather they sought after him, found his weakness, and moved in.

For me, even today, there is a spiritual component to mental illness that we often neglect in taking care of the patient.

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Thanks for your great responses. I find this interesting.

Stroke causes damage within 2 to 3 minutes of lack of blood flow. I was more referring to "brain death" which there are certain criteria that I am too far out from my nursing days to remember all of them but it includes lack of brain waves by EEG and no response to hypercapnia. I recall in one case where Jesus "brought back to life" a woman that He described as not dead, but that she was sleeping. Possibly people thought they were dead because they were in a coma. How would they know the difference?

they wouldn't.. nor are we that much better off today in knowing where the line is. Most that i can think of happen between a few minutes to a few hours after the individual is thought dead. the times where restoration happens after a longer duration is much more rare. (but I do note has happened)

Which brings me to another thought, the "spirits" of the devil may be referring to problems with the car itself, going back to the metaphor of driving a car, the driver being the spirit. Brigham Young was big on discussing our dual beings, both spirit and body and said (I believe on several occasions) that the devil has no power over our spirit only our body. He can only have influence over our spirit through the carnal, the physical body. The spirit of the devil cannot really "wrestle" with our spirits directly. The only thing he can "wrestle" with is the body itself. This is probably why there is so much cross-over between the description of healing and removing "evil spirits". I think there are times where description of removing "evil spirits" is actually a description of Jesus making the body whole. Then that person's spirit is left without having to "wrestle" the "evil" of this carnal state. I don't think the spirit of the devil can wrestle with our spirit only by invitation. But I do think the spirit of the devil can challenge our spirit via influences over the body as with what happened to Job and exactly how the devil challenged Jesus, through carnal desires.

sounds reasonable to me.
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Sure, you can interpret it that way too. Temporary insanity is definitely a possibility. But then, you can interpret Joseph Smith's First Vision as some major schizophrenia or the angels flying around Kirtland Temple as a mass hallucination or...

etc. etc. etc.

The fact of the matter is - Catholic Priests are trained to determine what is what - you can say they're all easily led by the nose and don't know what they're talking about, or you can take it for what they say they are.

And the fact of the matter is - that the LDS Church surely does not discount the possibility, especially when they publish such articles as Newel Knight's testimony in the Liahona and the Ensign and call it exorcism. So, when I witness an exorcism, I tend to take it for what the professionals say it is - Catholic or otherwise.

I think my interpretation is based in two things, one is that I worked in the medical field but the other is that I do not fear the devil. As Brigham Young has explained, the devil does not have power over our spirits, he just claims domain over earthly, worldly things such as our bodies. In someone who is righteous and in tune I believe the only thing the devil can do is to physically wrestle the body. How exactly he does that I do not know. But, I don't think he pushes our spirit out of the way so he can gain control of the body.

I don't discount the possibility of "exorcism" I am simply proposing a possible explanation of an event that could not otherwise be explained back then .... to some degree. I wasn't there, all we have is what is written about what they experienced.

Just realize though, that people "experience" hallucinations, delirium and dreams. I think in the Newel Knight case, one has to try to separate the part of the story that is told by Newel while he is not in his right mind or semi-conscious and the part witnessed by the people there including Joseph Smith. The difference, to me, in the Joseph Smith vision is that his thoughts were clear after the struggle but that is my perception based in faith.

It was a true miracle, I have no doubt. I was never arguing that point and I would say the same about the miracles Jesus performed. Jesus has shown his ability to overcome this carnal body and through him and his power our ability to overcome this carnal body, that is the message of his "exorcisms". I don't think Jesus' message is how to win a fight with the devil if he surprise attacks you.

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...I do not fear the devil. As Brigham Young has explained, the devil does not have power over our spirits, he just claims domain over earthly, worldly things such as our bodies. In someone who is righteous and in tune I believe the only thing the devil can do is to physically wrestle the body.

I'd warn you to be careful. I once thought like you until I was "spiritually attacked." It was a terrifying experience. He can not only take claim of worldly things, he can take claims of worldly thing around and against you. I learned a healthy respect for the guy. I've seen too much of what he can do. It's frightening the power he has over those who are unprepared and are so convinced of their own righteousness that they are left to their own devices (not saying this is you, I don't know you well enough, just my observation and experience).

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I'd warn you to be careful. I once thought like you until I was "spiritually attacked." It was a terrifying experience. He can not only take claim of worldly things, he can take claims of worldly thing around and against you. I learned a healthy respect for the guy. I've seen too much of what he can do. It's frightening the power he has over those who are unprepared and are so convinced of their own righteousness that they are left to their own devices (not saying this is you, I don't know you well enough, just my observation and experience).

That is exactly what I have been saying to be careful about, "he can take claims of worldly thing around and against you". I think that is true, that the devil's attacks are via the worldly things around us like you said, not a direct attack on the spirit. That exactly is and was my point. "Possession" seems to claim that the devil can attack our spirits directly, without any invitation. I disagree with that. He can only have influence on our spirit via our bodies and only if we let him. I don't think I have been saying anything against preparation or armor against the devil.

However, I think one that suggests that there is a possibility of an uninvited attack on the spirit would be saying that. I have been suggesting that the preparedness should be given to the right place, which is the body. By doing that we keep the spirit strong and in charge. We don't want to be led by the body but led by our spirits. If anything, I have been saying to be more prepared, then someone who claims that the spirits of the devil can randomly push ones spirit out of their body and "possess" them.

The preparation, of course, is to keep your physical temple clean and in tune with your own spirit. We haven't been talking about 'righteousness' or self righteousness though, that is your emotional bent on what I have been saying. ... I don't think we disagree as far as that goes. All souls born into this world have power over the devil unless they weaken themselves. That is not a self-righteous statement.

I have only been talking about what a "possession" is or could be and therefore what an exorcism is. The devil cannot "spiritually attack" anyone or harm anyone unless the spirit is weakened first by the person letting the devil's influences over the body affect them spiritually first. I am convinced of my spirits power over the devil but I am equally as frightened as you are stating when it comes to the physical influences he has. I think most people think that "possession" is the spirit of the devil going toe to toe with that persons spirit but in reality it is the spirit of the devil affecting the body which in turn affects the spirit. I am simply pointing the line of defense is at the body which includes the purity of thoughts and passions.

“All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not. The devil has no power over us only as we permit him. The moment we revolt at anything which comes from God, the devil takes power” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 181).

“The spirit is pure, and under the special control and influence of the Lord, but the body is of the earth, and is subject to the power of the Devil, and is under the mighty influence of that fallen nature that is of the earth. If the spirit yields to the body, the Devil then has power to overcome the body and spirit of that man, and he loses both.

“Recollect, brethren and sisters, every one of you, that when evil is suggested to you, when it arises in your hearts, it is through the temporal organization. When you are tempted, buffeted, and step out of the way inadvertently; when you are overtaken in a fault, or commit an overt act unthinkingly; when you are full of evil passion, and wish to yield to it, then stop and let the spirit, which God has put into your tabernacles, take the lead. If you do that, I will promise that you will overcome all evil, and obtain eternal lives. But many, very many, let the spirit yield to the body, and are overcome and destroyed” (Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe [1941], 70).

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I guess it's a difference of semantics between you and me. I agree with everything except for one thing (and I say that loosely because I may be reading you wrong), in my experience, Satan has every capacity to whisper to our spirits because he is a spirit himself. We all have heeded that voice because of our imperfection. However, we all have the capacity to call upon God to strengthen us and turn us from that voice.

It all comes back to exercising our ability to listen to the still, small voice of God. The more we heed to it, the more we are able to distinguish that voice from that of the evil one. In any case, because I was really way down that path of darkness, he still frightens me because I saw what he has the capacity for, and how he influenced me to do horrible things because I let him drown out the other voice. Was I possessed? I believe so. But, as you have pointed out, my choices invited that spirit to possess me. But I do understand that not everyone needs to go down that same path to find God's voice. If you haven't, then you are a better person than I (and I mean that sincerely).

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I guess it's a difference of semantics between you and me. I agree with everything except for one thing (and I say that loosely because I may be reading you wrong), in my experience, Satan has every capacity to whisper to our spirits because he is a spirit himself. We all have heeded that voice because of our imperfection. However, we all have the capacity to call upon God to strengthen us and turn us from that voice.

It all comes back to exercising our ability to listen to the still, small voice of God. The more we heed to it, the more we are able to distinguish that voice from that of the evil one. In any case, because I was really way down that path of darkness, he still frightens me because I saw what he has the capacity for, and how he influenced me to do horrible things because I let him drown out the other voice. Was I possessed? I believe so. But, as you have pointed out, my choices invited that spirit to possess me. But I do understand that not everyone needs to go down that same path to find God's voice. If you haven't, then you are a better person than I (and I mean that sincerely).

I appreciate your comments and your willingness to share your experiences which are valuable. My intentions were never to discredit anybody's experiences only to try to better understand how those interactions work. And I, especially, am not posting these things with any intent to judge. I think we are all in the same boat, pretty much. Thanks for sharing your experiences. :)

If you have seen some of my other posts and questions posed on this forum, you'll see I have an interest in how the spirit interacts with the body, and what the spirit (heavenly influences) and body (carnal influences) represent. I find that topic very interesting.

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I appreciate your comments and your willingness to share your experiences which are valuable. My intentions were never to discredit anybody's experiences only to try to better understand how those interactions work. And I, especially, am not posting these things with any intent to judge. I think we are all in the same boat, pretty much. Thanks for sharing your experiences. :)

If you have seen some of my other posts and questions posed on this forum, you'll see I have an interest in how the spirit interacts with the body, and what the spirit (heavenly influences) and body (carnal influences) represent. I find that topic very interesting.

I never took your posts as anything but a give and take conversation. It's difficult to perceive what the posters intent is because of because body language is taken out of the equation. Thus, at least I, always give the poster the benefit of the doubt. Unless they come up with something blatant. Then all bets are off.

So to me, you're doing fine. I'm just barging in.

As for the topic, I was thinking about it today and I'm not sure if we brought conscience into the discussion (but then I haven't read the whole thread). We believe that we are born with the gift of a conscience, which we call the Light of Christ, to help us judge good and evil. I believe that we are all born with the innate ability to choose good, but can loose that conscience if we begin to ignore it and choose badly or circumstances force us to adjust what is perceived as right and wrong. Which can be adjusted badly.

I dunno. I was a good kid who was called an "angel" by my mother. But stuff happened and shifted my thinking. Something I'm going to have to ponder for a bit.

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  • 2 years later...

I'm having an experience that has brought me here in my research. I have had a person appear in my life a few times that their is no doubt is possessed. At first I was very concerned about him because he had followed an unclean spirit till the point that he felt trapped. I just saw him again tonight and he now calls them his friends and that they have taught him all kinda things that he kept trying to tell me I needed to learn.

I say the next part knowing that you don't have to believe a word I say. But a year ago I went into the forest that my family has camped in my whole life to seek God through meditation and fasting. I contacted my parents bishop who came and interviewed me and talked to me about why and what I was doing. I had also in perpetration had long talks with our patriarch. Who instructed me in many ways. I had set a much larger goal then I was able to accomplish due to being chased out of the forest on the seventh day of my fast by a forest fire. I won't delve into that except to say in the last year I have become very aware of the physical presence of dark spirits when they are around.

To which I'll only say this. I think that a guarded person putting them selves in good environments have less chance of succumbing to any of the dark forces advances. But entertaining the thoughts whispered to our minds from dark forces can start a slippery slope. I've been meditating and felt and seen through the spirit people that are greatly influenced by their dark spiritual influences. To say that a spirt jumps in and takes control to me sounds wrong. It's more that slowly but surly the darkness can use are own egos to drag us to a place that can seem very hopeless once we get there.

There's no doubt to me when the bible says Jesus cast out unclean spirits that he did just that. But I don't think it just happens to some one all at once. I think the person arrives in a very bound position and doesn't know how to free them self from the influence of the darkness.

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I'm having an experience that has brought me here in my research. I have had a person appear in my life a few times that their is no doubt is possessed. At first I was very concerned about him because he had followed an unclean spirit till the point that he felt trapped. I just saw him again tonight and he now calls them his friends and that they have taught him all kinda things that he kept trying to tell me I needed to learn.

I say the next part knowing that you don't have to believe a word I say. But a year ago I went into the forest that my family has camped in my whole life to seek God through meditation and fasting. I contacted my parents bishop who came and interviewed me and talked to me about why and what I was doing. I had also in perpetration had long talks with our patriarch. Who instructed me in many ways. I had set a much larger goal then I was able to accomplish due to being chased out of the forest on the seventh day of my fast by a forest fire. I won't delve into that except to say in the last year I have become very aware of the physical presence of dark spirits when they are around.

To which I'll only say this. I think that a guarded person putting them selves in good environments have less chance of succumbing to any of the dark forces advances. But entertaining the thoughts whispered to our minds from dark forces can start a slippery slope. I've been meditating and felt and seen through the spirit people that are greatly influenced by their dark spiritual influences. To say that a spirt jumps in and takes control to me sounds wrong. It's more that slowly but surly the darkness can use are own egos to drag us to a place that can seem very hopeless once we get there.

There's no doubt to me when the bible says Jesus cast out unclean spirits that he did just that. But I don't think it just happens to some one all at once. I think the person arrives in a very bound position and doesn't know how to free them self from the influence of the darkness.

So, are you making this guy your project. This is not something you should ever play with unless you have been directed by the Spirit. And I mean you know 100%. Felt the powers of heaven kind of thing. This is not to be treated lightly at all. Stay away from this man. This is nothing to be tampered with. Think of the most horrible movie you have ever seen and times it by 100 because that is what he has inside him. STAY AWAY! (yes, I am shouting). If it does help, I know a guy the Spirit told me had something in him. He is a close relative and the Spirit told me so I wouldn't leave my children alone with him (now understand his anger issues and such). I was blind to it because I was so use to his personality. I was told that a man with great faith could heal him. But this is not YOUR job. If Heavenly Father wants to help, he will bring somebody in his life who will know how already. Don't do it. :no:

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Thank you person122 for your response. I had been avoiding him since he started telling

Me the scarier stuff. But some times he just shows up when I'm at the store alone. My family

Has currently asked me to not go out by my self for awhile. He sent a scary message to my phone

That freaked my parents out. I wish there was a way to help him, but I do feel like it would be best

To make some distance. It's sad to see the change from when I first met him till now. But I think it would be best to just pray and meditate for him. Being very interested in psychology I always thought it would be

Interesting to know the difference between psychosis and possession. But it's kinda out my league at the moment.

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I was asked to perform an exorcism during my mission. I recognized it as schizophrenia. I just did my best to give her a blessing to comfort her, that god loves her and will help her through it. I have seen plenty of people who have appeared to be possessed by demons while working with and living around people with mental illness. but I know that there really is no such thing as demon posession.

No such thing as Demon possession? Are you saying the scriptures teach falsehoods where Jesus cast out evil spirits?

...back then as a missionary, how did you 'diagnose' (recognize) schizophrenia as the real problem? The spirit or a doctorate?

Forgive me for my bluntness, I'm not trying to be argumentative, my interest is peaked by your 'testimony" that seems counter intuitive to 'The Word".

Edited by Magen_Avot
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Because of what was understood at the time the books were written. Mental disease = Demons. You need to put things into context with the times, not with today.

So,... Jesus cast disease into pigs?

I understand you are explaining to Annatess what Seminarysnoozer was saying, so this isn't directed at you personally, Slamjet, but to the logic that "possession" is/was a misdiagnosed mental illness specific to the New Testament story being used... at least how I understood the logic.

Edited by Magen_Avot
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Specific to the OP, I have not read or heard of any "official" stance on the subject.

Twort,

You said, "I've heard a number of Mormon myths about exorcism and possession..."

The use of the word 'myths' suggests, to me, that you do not believe in such things or are skeptical? Would that be a correct deduction? What 'myths' do you refer to? Are there any related 'stories' that you can bring to your OP that you, at least, embrace with some belief?

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So,... Jesus cast disease into pigs?

I understand you are explaining to Annatess what Seminarysnoozer was saying, so this isn't directed at you personally, Slamjet, but to the logic that "possession" is/was a misdiagnosed mental illness specific to the New Testament story being used... at least how I understood the logic.

Charles Whitman said, ""I do not really understand myself these days. I am supposed to be an average reasonable and intelligent young man. However, lately (I cannot recall when it started) I have been a victim of many unusual and irrational thoughts."

He is the mass murderer, in 1966 killed 14 people and later found to have a glioblastoma pressing on areas of the brain that regulate strong emotions.

Could his situation not be called "possession" by an "evil spirit"?

The Bible certainly wouldn't describe his story as a person who had a tumor. They would more likely, in that day, say the person was possessed.

What about a person who had Creutzfield-Jakob Disease during Bible times (or something like that) that is characterized by rapidly progressive dementia, leading to memory loss, personality changes and hallucinations. Other frequently occurring features include anxiety, depression, paranoia, obsessive-compulsive symptoms, and psychosis.

If Jesus were to remove the prions from that person, wouldn't that be described as removing an "evil spirit"?

Whenever the presentation results in personality change, there is a tendency to call it an "evil spirit" even though the problem could be related to some medical condition. If the problem was simply a medical condition like blindness, then Jesus is described as healing the person. (in general)

In terms of doctrinal significance, I don't see any problem with looking at it that way, after all, Jesus triumphs over all carnal corruption. For example, the millennium is characterized by not having those diseases at the same time Satan is bound. Healthy (in terms of no corruption as a result of the Fall) body = Satan bound, unhealthy body (i.e - corrupted, carnal body) = Satan has power to bruise our heel.

The thorn in the flesh for Paul was a potential source of spiritual failure and trial that he had to endure. It wasn't a reflection of his "evil" nature or that he was possessed by and actual evil spirit.

Edited by Seminarysnoozer
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So... are you suggesting that Jesus did cast mental illness into swine as one possible explanation?

How do the swine fit in? I'm just trying to wrap my head around the logic, you seem to be suggesting, in a specific biblical story. :confused:

Edited by Magen_Avot
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That mental illness can have physical causes such as brain tumors does not mean that demonic possession is therefore unreal or impossible. I very firmly believe in the literal reality of Satan and of his followers, and I believe that "possession" is a real thing. I think I have even witnessed it. I suspect that much of the "mental disease" we see in our society has a root in such things, though I cannot possibly quantify that or describe what the relationship is between "evil spirits" and mental disease. Our grasp of "mental disease" is so inexact and tenuous that any such description would be meaningless, like describing the effect of depressed hormone levels on tissue function to a person who had never heard of cell theory and had only the most rudimentary understanding of biology.

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I think they can also go hand-in-hand. We know that the adversary looks for the chinks in our armor. I know that when my depression has a strong hold on me, I have to fight off thoughts that do not come from a good place. I don't feel the Spirit as easily. It would make sense to me that many mental illnesses would have the unfortunate side effect of making someone more vulnerable to that kind of thing.

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I think they can also go hand-in-hand. We know that the adversary looks for the chinks in our armor. I know that when my depression has a strong hold on me, I have to fight off thoughts that do not come from a good place. I don't feel the Spirit as easily. It would make sense to me that many mental illnesses would have the unfortunate side effect of making someone more vulnerable to that kind of thing.

I believe we all have to fight off thoughts that do not come from a good place. But do we all have the means (spiritually) within ourselves to resist those thoughts that come from a place that is not a good place?

The Traveler

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CWFTYoV.png

Loved it (not) when I confided to husband about problems in adversary category. He looked at me and said looking shocked, "You need to stop thinking about it. That makes it worse." Not what I needed.

I'm sorry but I didn't know I was in line for this when I had kids. And no, I have NEVER had post partum depression.

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So... are you suggesting that Jesus did cast mental illness into swine as one possible explanation?

How do the swine fit in? I'm just trying to wrap my head around the logic, you seem to be suggesting, in a specific biblical story. :confused:

Specifically, of course, we don't know.

Prion diseases can be passed from animals to humans, think of mad-cow disease. Kuru, which is a form of prion disease, is caused by eating the brains of someone who had prion disease. The demon possessed individual in Matthew 8, had just come out of the tombs. Who knows what he was doing in there.

Cysticercosis (pork tapeworm) is passed from swine (undercooked pork) to humans and one can have hundreds of the larva settle in the brain causing various symptoms depending on the location including cognitive changes.

There are various viruses that are passed from animal to human, think of swine flu, or bird flu, etc. Hog flu can hit the kidneys and cause uremia, which can cause confusion, encephalopathy.

Also, think of what rabies can do.

It isn't an impossibility. But we don't know the specifics.

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Specifically, of course, we don't know.

Well,... ok, but we can stamp the whole bible with that rubber stamp IMO. That would wipe out nearly all of the discussions on this site wouldn’t it? I have no argument over that fact that mental illness can be attributed, but perhaps we should ask what is meant by possession?

So,… first mental illnesses. Ok done.

Second: Lets consider being filled with the Spirit of God.

If we allow that we can be filled with the Holy Ghost, then why not an unclean spirit? Certainly we seek the spirit, is it possible for someone to do the same with an evil spirit? Put aside, for this conversation, the possibility of an evil spirit forcing its way in.

What we mean by 'possession'?... I believe most of us (IMO) think of mortal bodies being co-habitated with an unclean spirit, but what about being 'filled' by a spirit similar to the spirit of God mentioned above, but unholy obviously?

Third: An evil spirit co-habitating with our spirit in the physical tabernacle.

We know of events in the bible, here are a couple, um... unspicific ones in the Book of Mormon:

Mosiah 3:6Â*

3 Nephi 7:19Â*

There are recorded events in early church history where unclean spirits were cast out as well, but I'm not sure of the specifics at the moment; however, the term "casting out unclean spirits" are most often characterized as ‘out of people’ as I recall. I could be wrong, but again... what do they mean?

I don’t really limit the meaning of being “possessed”, per say, but I have seen it once.

You will never forget looking into the eyes of a knowing stranger in the face you know.

Edited by Magen_Avot
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Well,... ok, but we can stamp the whole bible with that rubber stamp IMO. That would wipe out nearly all of the discussions on this site wouldn’t it? I have no argument over that fact that mental illness can be attributed, but perhaps we should ask what is meant by possession?

So,… first mental illnesses. Ok done.

Second: Lets consider being filled with the Spirit of God.

If we allow that we can be filled with the Holy Ghost, then why not an unclean spirit? Certainly we seek the spirit, is it possible for someone to do the same with an evil spirit? Put aside, for this conversation, the possibility of an evil spirit forcing its way in.

What we mean by 'possession'?... I believe most of us (IMO) think of mortal bodies being co-habitated with an unclean spirit, but what about being 'filled' by a spirit similar to the spirit of God mentioned above, but unholy obviously?

Third: An evil spirit co-habitating with our spirit in the physical tabernacle.

We know of events in the bible, here are a couple, um... unspicific ones in the Book of Mormon:

Mosiah 3:6Â*

3 Nephi 7:19Â*

There are recorded events in early church history where unclean spirits were cast out as well, but I'm not sure of the specifics at the moment; however, the term "casting out unclean spirits" are most often characterized as ‘out of people’ as I recall. I could be wrong, but again... what do they mean?

I don’t really limit the meaning of being “possessed”, per say, but I have seen it once.

You will never forget looking into the eyes of a knowing stranger in the face you know.

I think it is important to keep in mind that the scriptures use symbolism to convey the lesson but there are clues to help us better understand some of those symbols. For example, in Acts 19: " 11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:

12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them."

Here, words like "hands", "from his body", "handkerchiefs or aprons" pertain to the cleanliness of the body from which the "diseases" or "evil spirits" departed from them.

Also, how we interact with the spirit is not necessarily the same way that evil spirits interact with us. I think that is specified in Moses 4: " 21 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between thy seed and her seed; and he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." I realize this is talking about Jesus but I think it specifies when we act in His name, we can bruise Satan's head where he can only bruise our heel. I believe the deeper meaning of this is that Satan only has power over carnal things and not spirit and that the head is higher in importance than the heel. In other words, how Satan is able to influence is different than how the spirit of God influences. They are not done in the same way.

David O. McKay explains how this enmity relates to each of us; "Our spirits come from the presence of God, and “every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning” (D&C 93:38). Our physical bodies are also gifts from God. One reason we wanted to come to this earth was to become more like our Heavenly Father, who has a physical body. Consequently, one of our challenges in mortality is to learn how to manage, care for, and use our bodies properly. If we can govern the natural tendencies of the flesh, we will rise toward the kind of spiritual life President McKay described. But if we let “the natural man” govern, we will find ourselves at enmity with God and His purposes (see Mosiah 3:19)."

Elder Ballard explains that the battle from Satan occurs through the flesh, not a spirit to spirit battle; "Elder Melvin J. Ballard (1873–1939) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles taught that “all the assaults that the enemy of our souls will make to capture us will be through the flesh, because it is made up of the unredeemed earth, and he has power over the elements of the earth. The approach he makes to us will be through the lusts, the appetites, the ambitions of the flesh. All the help that comes to us from the Lord to aid us in this struggle will come to us through the spirit that dwells within this mortal body. So these two mighty forces are operating upon us through these two channels."

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