Dealing with Spouses Pornography addiction

[billsmith]

Ugggh. I just realized how very hypocritical that last post was. I started this whole thing out by saying how much people "really bug me when they..." pathetic.

In the immortal words of John Cleese: "Sorry everyone, sorry."

[pam]

Actually I think bill has a point. We, as women, are more prone to talk to our BFF's about personal things. Even personal things in our relationships.

[Vort]

Fwiw, I believe my wife has never talked to anyone, family or friends, about our intimate business behind my back. I think she would consider that disloyal, as would I.

[MorningStar]

I understand your comment. I was, however, trying to make a somewhat serious point. I get really bugged when people always mention how "hurt" or "Betrayed" they feel because their spouse watches porn. Think about the levels of intimacy involved in looking at a picture vs having a real intimate conversation with a real person. Women have an almost obsessive need to talk to different people about very private stuff. No woman can honestly say for example that they have not talked about their sex life with a close friend. The majority should admit to discussing personal stuff with SEVERAL people. It's just how they are wired. So do I have the right as a husband to decide what her motivations were? I could say she violated the sanctity of our relationship by having discussed something personal with other people. What? Am I not enough for her? Why doesn't she just talk to me? Why does she need to make these intimate connections with other people? I feel so hurt and betrayed...

Oh wait. No I don't. I realize that that's just how women are wired. They have to satisfy some feminine urge to talk everything out with people besides their spouses. If I confronted my wife and told her that if she spoke with anyone else EVER about our relationship that I would leave her. What is the first thing she would do? She would call one of her friends to discuss it. Or give herself a tumor sitting in a chair trying to keep herself from doing it. I of course think that I have absolutely no right to assign her the label of "betrayer" just because she has that need. I let her tell me if she is trying to hurt me by "going to others to talk about things. If she tells me that she still loves me but just has a need to talk to other people then I believe her and try to be understanding.

So men have other hardwired tendencies. I feel that that is no reason for them to be labeled. They are just doing what men do. there is a reason why the church is obsessively telling the priesthood bearers to stop looking at porn. It is because so many are. I'm not saying that it is right. I agree wholeheartedly that it is damaging to the spirit. All I'm saying is that a woman is guilty of objectifying men if she decides she can just decide what their motivations are. That is just as demeaning as men objectifying women.

Bill, you clearly do not understand what a nightmare it is to discover one's spouse is addicted to pornography and the lies that come with it.

[billsmith]

Okay fair enough. Please know that I'm not trying to make fun of your feelings. If I have come across as uncaring then I sincerely apologize. I tell you what - I'll share an experience from my past and you can tell me if I still don't qualify to potentially understand what you have experienced.

When I was 7 years old I was sexually abused by a man in my apartment building. Pretty much anything you can imagine went on. I still remember it well. I know that that kind of thing has really messed some people up inside. Maybe that qualifies me to understand the "nightmare" of which you speak. Although I guess he was just a friendly acquaintance of our family and not a committed partner. But when I think back on it I don't demonize the guy at all. I actually wonder what happened to him that made him do what he did to me. I don't really pity him nor do I condone his actions. For some reason I don't wind myself up about it either. I feel about it the same way I would feel about a kid knocking an ice cream cone out of my hand. The guy was a punk and needs to shape up.

So when it comes to my wife, I can't imagine a scenario where she would do something on her own and in private that would cause me to demonize her and decide that my life was destroyed. Certainly not because she liked looking at Taylor Lautner's Abs.

Now I could better understand the word "nightmare" if a husband involved a wife against her will in some way. Like if he fired up the computer at dinner time while you were trying to eat. If he wanted her to dress up like someone in one of the videos he watched when she did not want to...etc, etc. That kind of thing effects another person and depending on the severity I can see it being rather serious. If, however, a husband treats his wife with kindness and respect and does his web surfing in private...? Your right I guess I don't get it.

Please don't read into what I said that I am condoning pornography. It is a sin. It makes it a lot more difficult if not impossible to feel the spirit. It might lead to bigger sins. I agree wholeheartedly with those facts. I also absolutely and unequivocally agree that he needs to stop. I only wish that his wife would see him for who he really is. An imperfect son of God just trying his best to get through this thing called life. Pure and simple. A porn addict is the same as a kleptomaniac, a no good layabout, someone prone to anger, a self righteous person, a smoker, someone with same gender attraction. I believe that every person I know has weaknesses. I also believe that a human being has the ability to choose how they react to someone's weaknesses. I don't have to like it and I understand a natural feeling of disgust towards the behavior. It is interesting that the majority of porn addicts say they are also disgusted by it. they need their rush and unfortunately the pictures are what bring it. A great many would almost certainly trade those degrading images for pictures of fruit if they could get the same effect from produce. (Well I guess a few probably can) but my point is that I absolutely have control over how I choose to address it. I have control over how I see my spouse. More than one General Authority has suggested that we get tougher skin. That we stop being offended. I've even heard it suggested that when you see someone doing something wrong that you should make up a reason for what they did in your mind that allows you to see them positively. I've tried that and it actually works. I was amazed at how differently I felt about what happened when I forced myself out of the trap of demonizing the individual.

[Guest]

Okay fair enough. Please know that I'm not trying to make fun of your feelings. If I have come across as uncaring then I sincerely apologize. I tell you what - I'll share an experience from my past and you can tell me if I still don't qualify to potentially understand what you have experienced.

When I was 7 years old I was sexually abused by a man in my apartment building. Pretty much anything you can imagine went on. I still remember it well. I know that that kind of thing has really messed some people up inside. Maybe that qualifies me to understand the "nightmare" of which you speak. Although I guess he was just a friendly acquaintance of our family and not a committed partner. But when I think back on it I don't demonize the guy at all. I actually wonder what happened to him that made him do what he did to me. I don't really pity him nor do I condone his actions. For some reason I don't wind myself up about it either. I feel about it the same way I would feel about a kid knocking an ice cream cone out of my hand. The guy was a punk and needs to shape up.

So when it comes to my wife, I can't imagine a scenario where she would do something on her own and in private that would cause me to demonize her and decide that my life was destroyed. Certainly not because she liked looking at Taylor Lautner's Abs.

Now I could better understand the word "nightmare" if a husband involved a wife against her will in some way. Like if he fired up the computer at dinner time while you were trying to eat. If he wanted her to dress up like someone in one of the videos he watched when she did not want to...etc, etc. That kind of thing effects another person and depending on the severity I can see it being rather serious. If, however, a husband treats his wife with kindness and respect and does his web surfing in private...? Your right I guess I don't get it.

Please don't read into what I said that I am condoning pornography. It is a sin. It makes it a lot more difficult if not impossible to feel the spirit. It might lead to bigger sins. I agree wholeheartedly with those facts. I also absolutely and unequivocally agree that he needs to stop. I only wish that his wife would see him for who he really is. An imperfect son of God just trying his best to get through this thing called life. Pure and simple. A porn addict is the same as a kleptomaniac, a no good layabout, someone prone to anger, a self righteous person, a smoker, someone with same gender attraction. I believe that every person I know has weaknesses. I also believe that a human being has the ability to choose how they react to someone's weaknesses. I don't have to like it and I understand a natural feeling of disgust towards the behavior. It is interesting that the majority of porn addicts say they are also disgusted by it. they need their rush and unfortunately the pictures are what bring it. A great many would almost certainly trade those degrading images for pictures of fruit if they could get the same effect from produce. (Well I guess a few probably can) but my point is that I absolutely have control over how I choose to address it. I have control over how I see my spouse. More than one General Authority has suggested that we get tougher skin. That we stop being offended. I've even heard it suggested that when you see someone doing something wrong that you should make up a reason for what they did in your mind that allows you to see them positively. I've tried that and it actually works. I was amazed at how differently I felt about what happened when I forced myself out of the trap of demonizing the individual.

You know what Bill... as unconventional the point is you're making... I actually agree with you 100%.

Morningstar may not have understood what you were trying to say.

If I'm not mistaken, your point simply states:

* Women (or men) don't demonize your spouses for their porn addiction. They may have hurt you but that's not their intent (generally speaking). They have a problem. They need help. It is not about you.

A point which I've made on page 1 of this thread - but in a different way.

So yeah, I agree with that completely. If my husband did this (highly doubt it), I would completely remove myself from the picture (that is, set aside the fact that I got really hurt big time - or even that the marriage got hurt big time) - and concentrate on helping him for his own sake.

Did I come close to what you were saying?

[MorningStar]

What I took issue with is you being bugged that a woman would feel hurt or betrayed by that behavior. Her feelings are valid. If her husband is using other women to become aroused, it sends a message that she's not good enough and it takes years of convincing for her to understand his motivation. No, it doesn't erase the good things he does, but it can leave her feeling very insecure and scared about what's coming next especially if he did everything humanly possible to cover it up. Every woman I know who has dealt with this has said that the lying is the worst part because they wonder, "What else did he lie about? Did he go to strip clubs? Did he have an affair?"

However private the porn surfing is, it is still a very hurtful thing to do and eventually the addict will mess up and it won't be so private anymore. My friend encountered some horrible porn pop-ups because of her husband's "private" surfing in the middle of the night. Another friend came home from a women's conference early and found her husband surfing porn in the presence of their young children. Another friend had to move to another state to live with her in-laws because her husband got fired after surfing porn with his work laptop. He was denied unemployment and they had to start all over.

In an LDS family, the wife will run into these awkward situations.

Being asked where your husband is at family sealings and ward temple nights.

Being told by your bishop that your husband can baptize your child if he's still clean months from now. Hoping like heck there won't be a relapse and wondering how you will explain to your family why you either postponed it or why he didn't baptize your child or even stand in for the confirmation. Worrying especially about protective relatives who will have bad feelings towards your husband if they have any clue that he has hurt you in any way. Most of all, wondering how heartbroken your child will be if they are told Daddy can't baptize them.

The addict's actions affect the whole family.

[Guest]

What I took issue with is you being bugged that a woman would feel hurt or betrayed by that behavior. Her feelings are valid. If her husband is using other women to become aroused, it sends a message that she's not good enough and it takes years of convincing for her to understand his motivation. No, it doesn't erase the good things he does, but it can leave her feeling very insecure and scared about what's coming next especially if he did everything humanly possible to cover it up. Every woman I know who has dealt with this has said that the lying is the worst part because they wonder, "What else did he lie about? Did he go to strip clubs? Did he have an affair?"

However private the porn surfing is, it is still a very hurtful thing to do and eventually the addict will mess up and it won't be so private anymore. My friend encountered some horrible porn pop-ups because of her husband's "private" surfing in the middle of the night. Another friend came home from a women's conference early and found her husband surfing porn in the presence of their young children. Another friend had to move to another state to live with her in-laws because her husband got fired after surfing porn with his work laptop. He was denied unemployment and they had to start all over.

In an LDS family, the wife will run into these awkward situations.

Being asked where your husband is at family sealings and ward temple nights.

Being told by your bishop that your husband can baptize your child if he's still clean months from now. Hoping like heck there won't be a relapse and wondering how you will explain to your family why you either postponed it or why he didn't baptize your child or even stand in for the confirmation. Worrying especially about protective relatives who will have bad feelings towards your husband if they have any clue that he has hurt you in any way. Most of all, wondering how heartbroken your child will be if they are told Daddy can't baptize them.

The addict's actions affect the whole family.

Morningstar... I am not saying you're wrong... Not even close.

But, everything you said here is not a product of porn addition per se. It's a product of life's ugly circumstances... like say, adultery, divorce, getting ex-communicated for one reason or another...

And I think that's Bill's main point. Yes, the woman is hurt and pornography is hideous - but it doesn't need to be treated by the spouse as any more hideous than - hmm... let's use his example... a woman who divulges personal matters on facebook.

Know what I mean?

Disclaimer: I have no knowledge on these matters. I've never personally known anybody addicted to porn... watched it, yes, addicted to it, no.

Edited May 19, 2011 by anatess

[MorningStar]

Morningstar... I am not saying you're wrong... Not even close.

But, everything you said here is not a product of porn addition per se. It's a product of life's ugly circumstances... like say, adultery, divorce, getting ex-communicated for one reason or another...

And I think that's Bill's main point. Yes, the woman is hurt and pornography is hideous - but it doesn't need to be treated by the spouse as any more hideous than - hmm... let's use his example... a woman who divulges personal matters on facebook.

Know what I mean?

Yes, I understand that men and women both hurt each other in marriage, but I don't like to see a woman's valid feelings or the addict's behavior minimized. It is a big deal and there is a difference between being hurt and demonizing one's husband. If a man has portrayed himself as a wholesome guy who never looked at porn, goes on a mission, marries you in the temple, and doesn't mention his pesky 10-20 year long battle with porn addiction, that is a major deal when his wife stumbles upon his collection of pictures and videos she never could have imagined. If she feels for a while like she is living with Jekyll and Hyde, that's to be expected. When trust is broken, there are huge consequences.

If that same wife were to divulge on Facebook that her husband wets the bed and sucks his thumb at night, that would be a big, hurtful mistake on her part and his feelings also shouldn't be minimized.

[billsmith]

I can't tell you how much I appreciate your responses. Until someone bothers to explain why they are hurt it is just this ethereal concept that can't be easily addressed.

I remember when I discovered that my mother had been seeing another man. My father knew about it but at the time us kids were too young to understand what was going on. When I was 13 our whole family was at my grandparent's house on vacation and I was camped out on the downstairs couch. For some unfathomable reason my mom found it necessary to call one of her good friends and discuss it all years after it happened. She thought I was asleep. It gutted me. I laid there with my heart pounding not knowing what to think. the next day I called her a cheater in front of my aunt and uncle. they all just looked at me funny but no one seemed to even know what I was talking about. I talked to my aunt later and told her why I said what I did. The next thing I knew I was whisked off to the car by my mother who told me that she was sorry I heard her conversation. She also told me that I should never talk about that again to anyone. Her desire to keep the whole thing hushed up was to her much more important than - oh I don't know - finding a way to help your son work through the trauma of what he was feeling.

I get the feeling from your excellent comments above that the experience I had was somewhat similar to what some of you have gone through. Doesn't it suck being in a church community where you have to hide your sins from everyone for fear of being judged or ridiculed by your ward members? I gotta say I really feel you there.

[MorningStar]

One of my old bishops told me that men and women react very differently when they discover their spouse is addicted to porn. The women are hysterical and sobbing, feeling like someone died because their husband isn't the man they thought he was. When men find out their wives are addicted, the reaction is usually, "Oh. Well you need to stop doing that."

We see the issue very differently and Satan uses our differences against us.

That's terrible what you heard your mom say to her friend, Bill. When you find out someone you love and trust does something you didn't think they were capable of, it really hurts.

A friend of mine racked up a lot of debt without telling her husband and he reacted very much in a way that a woman would when finding out her husband is addicted to porn. She had nothing to show for her debt and he flipped, asking her if she had a boyfriend, a drug problem, etc. Because she had lied about it for over 5 years, he wondered what else she had lied about. He watched her every monetary move for a long time and took her debit card away.

It was interesting how it started (and this is something she talks about openly to people). When her husband was laid-off and she was starting a daycare, she didn't want to stress him out and let him know she needed to take money out of savings. So she got a cash advance on a new credit card to put the money back in savings and somehow things got completely out of control. She would make purchases they couldn't afford to hide the fact that she had the debt because as far as her husband knew, they were doing just fine due to the business she had. So they bought plane tickets, rented a cabin, and other things. When she told me what she did, I said, "Ohhhhhhhhh ...... So that's why you ran to the mailbox the moment the mailman came!" She was terrified her husband would find one of her credit card bills.

Then one day he was doing a random credit check and discovered accounts he didn't know about. At first he thought their identity had been stolen, but she immediately told him the truth. That was the first time he ever swore their whole marriage. He took her in to talk to the bishop with him and he was a wreck. He didn't feel like he really knew her. He said if she charged anything else, he would leave with the kids for a couple weeks and he wouldn't let her go grocery shopping alone. He wasn't convinced that she wasn't a spendaholic.

Now that she had showed consistent, trustworthy behavior, things are good. Seeing how much she devastated him, she said she learned her lesson. Financial security is the most important thing to him by far, so that is pretty much the worst thing you can do to him.

[outcast]

Look girl,

you don't let an alcoholic live next door to the liqueur store.

You need to get RID of the source of the problem.

Jesus said this: It is better to cut off your hand and enter heaven mamed then have your whole body burn in hell. In other words it's better to TOSS THE COMPUTER then loose the whole marriage.

Time to start living like the WALTONS. He will get over it, or you will get over him.

Jesus also said: if any one of you divorce for any thing except adultery then you are sinning. BUT he who lust after a woman in his heart has committed adultery in his heart.

So divorce is justified here.

Life is too short to live with a sinful husband with so many righteous men out there.

If he can't let go of the computer then let go of him. Choose you this day what you will do, as for me and my house, we will serve the lord!

Edited May 20, 2011 by outcast

[Vort]

Jesus also said: if any one of you divorce for any thing except adultery then you are sinning. BUT he who lust after a woman in his heart has committed adultery in his heart.

Committing adultery in one's heart is much less serious than committing adultery with one's genitals.

So divorce is justified here.

Shame on you. Who are you to be telling someone you don't even know to divorce her husband?

Matthew 19:6 "Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

Life is too short to live with a sinful husband with so many righteous men out there.

If he can't let go of the computer then let go of him. Choose you this day what you will do, as for me and my house, we will serve the lord!

You serve the Lord by disobeying him and encouraging the dissolution of a marriage?

You should be ashamed of yourself.

[slamjet]

If he can't let go of the computer then let go of him. Choose you this day what you will do, as for me and my house, we will serve the lord!

Yup, lots of compassion from someone who thinks they know it all about relationships, marriage and addictions. Sounds just like a 13 year old. Get real and drop the moronic holier-than-thou answers.

[sensibility]

I understand your comment. I was, however, trying to make a somewhat serious point. I get really bugged when people always mention how "hurt" or "Betrayed" they feel because their spouse watches porn. Think about the levels of intimacy involved in looking at a picture vs having a real intimate conversation with a real person.

I'm intrigued by your comparisons, and I can see two explanations. So, are you actually insecure to the point that you consider facebook conversations to be a betrayal of marriage vows? Or, are you so desperate to rationalise porn use that you've convinced yourself that it's as incidental an issue as facebook conversations?

Sin has consequences. It's a shame, but there it is. More serious sins often have more serious consequences. And one consequence of porn use is that it can deeply wound the person you swore to love with your whole heart. Don't like the consequence, maybe you shouldn't commit the sin.

[Guest]

I'm intrigued by your comparisons, and I can see two explanations. So, are you actually insecure to the point that you consider facebook conversations to be a betrayal of marriage vows? Or, are you so desperate to rationalise porn use that you've convinced yourself that it's as incidental an issue as facebook conversations?

Sin has consequences. It's a shame, but there it is. More serious sins often have more serious consequences. And one consequence of porn use is that it can deeply wound the person you swore to love with your whole heart. Don't like the consequence, maybe you shouldn't commit the sin.

Sensibility, when your wife goes on facebook and divulges very personal information about their marriage (even sexual stuff) to "friends"... it hurts just as much. Yet you don't see women getting vilified for it as much as men watching porn.

That's what Bill is trying to tell you.

[MarginOfError]

Shame on you. Who are you to be telling someone you don't even know to divorce her husband?

Matthew 19:6 "Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

I support Vort in saying this and want to add that the only statement I've ever heard for the Church on when to divorce is

"In my opinion, 'just cause' for divorce should be nothing less serious than a prolonged and apparently irredeemable relationship that destroys a person’s dignity as a human being" (James E. Faust).

I think we'd be well served to let individuals determine when they've reached such a thresh hold, including priesthood leaders or professional counselors if they so desire.

[sensibility]

Of course it hurts to have a spouse betray a confidence. But I have a very real problem believing that typical woman-to-woman marriage chat, which is what Bill was actually discussing, comes anywhere near to causing the pain that the spouse of a porn addict faces. Especially since, as you'll note, Bill specifically says that he does not feel hurt and betrayed by this -- and he just can't understand why women don't extend the same courtesy to men who want to look at naked women.

It is not the spouse's obligation to "toughen up" to protect the addict from the consequences of their sin.

[billsmith]

Sensibility: Thanks for your comments. If you thought the whole facebook thing was completely serious then I apologize. Dare I suspect you use it? :-) jk

I do find it interesting that we as men and women do experience things so differently. When boys bully people its usually through physical intimidation. When women do it it is through words. I love that episode of Seinfeld where Elaine says that her friends would just tease someone until they developed an eating disorder. My daughter was crushed at school last week when her circle of "friends" got together and said some unkind things about her while she was sick for a few days. Who is to say whether looking at a picture or writing a paragraph is worse. For me as a man/dad I think little girls can be really mean to each other just by speaking. I find it fascinating that someone can use language as that powerful a weapon. For a woman - used to being in the trenches with that her whole life - maybe she can take it better than a man so she sees less harm in it. I don't know. If my wife said on facebook that mine was the smallest she had ever had but that she didn't care because I was such a wonderful man...ouch. but I can take that two ways. I can say wow my wife really loves me and isn't it swell that she thinks I'm so great. or I can think: "wow, my wife is a crewel heartless wench." Do I decide to be mortified and resentful or do I feel good about the fact that everything else I do is positive? Its my choice how I let it effect me.

I think one of the pervasive things I hear is that the most painful thing is the lying. So I'll take it as an example of how you can decide to see it differently. A man has told his wife that knowing she reads twilight and then falls asleep Imagining herself with Edward or Jacob or both bothers him. So the woman lies and says that she was reading second Nephi while he was alone on his business trip. Is she trying to hurt her husband or spare him hurt? Spare him hurt of course. So he can actually look at it in a positive way. His wife tried her best to keep him from knowing something that would hurt him. That means she loves me and cares about me. He knows that she likes to read about men with superhuman strength and an eternal adoration of her heart and soul. Heck Edward just drinks blood so he probably doesn't fart in bed either. He also knows that she will come back to reality in the morning. She knows he gets a huge rush by looking at women. She should also know that he doesn't really think he is going to get together with any of those women. In fact, I would say that men rarely take it as far as women do. for men they don't really even fantasize about being with those girls. they don't need that to accomplish the task at hand. Nature gave them this natural reaction to seeing the female form. Stimuli in = pleasure out. I would have to say that VERY few men stick around to see how the movie ends once they.. ahem...pop.

Is it possible for a woman to see pornography as being much like her vibrator? Is it her fault that it does something for her that her man can't do? No. Is it his? No. Should she be using one while her husband isn't there? I have no desire to be a judge there. But should her man feel hurt inside because she does? I can see it hurting his pride if he lets it. But he doesn't have to, and I would think that most women have no desire to make their husbands feel inadequate because they use one. I think they would hope that he would understand that she still loves him - your awesome honey I love you and adore you and want to spend eternity with you...its just that...HOT D*MN...any way Mr. Rabbit could come along for the ride?

[MorningStar]

Um, the vibrator thing is not something most LDS women are going to identify with. I'm pretty sure none of us is thinking, "Oh, Bill's right! That's exactly the case with my vibrator!"

Also, Twilight is stoopid.

[Vort]

My wife loves Twilight. Ergo, so do I, even though she has forbidden me from reading it.

I actually agree with a lot of billsmith's points, though perhaps not completely with his expression of them. Everyone seems to agree that porn usage (addiction or not) is not about the spouse at all. Gossiping to your friends about private intimate matters of sex and/or relationship is EXACTLY about the spouse. I can see how a man might feel he has cause to feel much more betrayed by such actions than by someone merely looking at porn.

In our society, a man's weaknesses and transgressions are generally viewed much more harshly than a woman's. A sizeable minority are against punishing adult women who rape teenage boys, even arguing that the term "rape" is nonsensical in such a consensual relationship; yet only a very tiny minority argues the same about an adult man having sexual congress with a teenage girl, never mind that such a situation is far more historically common and accepted.

Even on this list, if a man joins the list and discloses his adultery, he is generally met with stern words and relatively little emotional support. But when a woman joins the list and discloses her adultery, she is given much more emotional support and encouraged to repent, sometimes in explicit language but almost always with the subtext "We care about you and want you to do the right thing". I have even seen posters try to justify a woman's infidelity by supposing that the husband must have been abusive or neglectful or in some other way driven her to another man's arms.

If we put away this sexist nonsense, I believe we would see that pornography is not the only vicious and destructive addiction, and that women can (and do) contribute to destroying a marriage just as much as their husbands.

[sensibility]

Hi Bill, I simply used the facebook example as a springboard to point out the fact that the initial premise on which you based your entire argument -- specifically, porn is like a conversation -- was completely incorrect, which necessarily invalidates everything that follows. I might just as well say, "My spouse likes reading books, and reading books is like porn. I don't get mad at him for reading books, so why on earth would he get mad at me for looking at porn?!" Porn isn't like books. It isn't like conversation. The argument simply doesn't follow.

I think that you're failing to grasp the fundamental issue here. In some situations, feeling hurt is a fully appropriate reaction. Here, we're talking about a person who has forsaken their sacred vows of sexual monogamy and full fidelity in favour of looking at obscene pictures of strangers. It is completely appropriate for that to hurt. It is infidelity. It is cheating. It should hurt. Yes, of course that will be uncomfortable for the person who looked at porn; but asking the spouse to deny their emotions because it's uncomfortable is weak and cowardly.

But, who knows. I could be wrong. There is that scripture about the women who cried out to God about their husbands' sexual transgressions, and God said, "Verily, shut up, you silly women. Try to see the positive side, at least he's still coming home to eat your cooking!"

Obviously that's a paraphrase. But I'm sure it was something like that.

For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.

And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.

[MorningStar]

Who wants to cuddle up to a sparkly, cold, pasty, old guy?

Not me. Well, maybe in Summer so I can save money by not turning on the AC, but not for any romantic purpose.

Edited May 20, 2011 by MorningStar
Had to insert the word "pasty". I forgot to call Edward pasty.

[Vort]

But, who knows. I could be wrong. There is that scripture about the women who cried out to God about their husbands' sexual transgressions, and God said, "Verily, shut up, you silly women. Try to see the positive side, at least he's still coming home to eat your cooking!"

Obviously that's a paraphrase. But I'm sure it was something like that.

For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.

And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.

Seriously? A man looking at pornography is equivalent to a man taking other wives?

Amazing. And people say men reduce marriage to sex.

[Vort]

Who wants to cuddle up to a sparkly, cold, old guy?

Not me. Well, maybe in Summer so I can save money by not turning on the AC, but not for any romantic purpose.

My sixteen-year-old wanted to get his mother a T-shirt that read, "I like my men cold, dead, and sparkly."