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Christ-posse Non Peccare -able Not To Sin Or Non Posse Peccare - Not A


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#1 BenRaines

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 01:50 PM

Dr. T. mentioned that he has been busy studying this topic. My personal feelings are that if he had not been able to sin then it would not have been a fair example of him coming to earth and setting an example for us to follow. I believe that he was able to overcome all temptation but not unable to sin. While sinning was possible it was not probable Ben Raines
"If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts; but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties." Sir Francis Bacon

#2 Ray

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 02:15 PM

I agree with your personal feelings, Ben, and I will also say I know that is true. And while everyone else can believe what they want about this, I still know what I know is true.

#3 Dr T

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 02:28 PM

Hello Ben and Ray, Thanks for posting your thoughts on this issue. Do you believe that Jesus NEVER sinned? Not even in thought? Pride, lust, etc.? Thanks
To base thought only on speech is to try nailing whispers to the wall. Writing freezes thought and offers it up for inspection Jack Rosenthal

#4 Ray

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 02:42 PM

Yes, I believe that. And I know for a fact that is true. :)

#5 prisonchaplain

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 03:11 PM

Hello Ben and Ray,

Thanks for posting your thoughts on this issue. Do you believe that Jesus NEVER sinned? Not even in thought? Pride, lust, etc.?

Thanks
[/b]


Oh, uh...excuse me, Ben! Ray, bro. Sorry didn't see you. Hope I didn't bump you too hard. Hi, Dr. T. Thought I'd throw my 2-cents in. Without prooftexting, I'm pretty confident that Christ was truly tempted, yet never sinned.

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." -- Lord Acton


#6 Ray

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 03:16 PM

[quote]
<div class='quotemain'>
Hello Ben and Ray,

Thanks for posting your thoughts on this issue. Do you believe that Jesus NEVER sinned? Not even in thought? Pride, lust, etc.?

Thanks
[/b][/quote]

Oh, uh...excuse me, Ben! Ray, bro. Sorry didn't see you. Hope I didn't bump you too hard. Hi, Dr. T. Thought I'd throw my 2-cents in. Without prooftexting, I'm pretty confident that Christ was truly tempted, yet never sinned.
[/b][/quote]
Heh, just squeeze on in here, Tommy. We have plenty of room for you.

:bighug:

#7 Dr T

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 03:46 PM

Thanks PC. Sorry but I don't have change right now. Can I just take your two cents now and give you the change later? Thanks
To base thought only on speech is to try nailing whispers to the wall. Writing freezes thought and offers it up for inspection Jack Rosenthal

#8 prisonchaplain

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 04:01 PM

Thanks PC. Sorry but I don't have change right now. Can I just take your two cents now and give you the change later?

Thanks
[/b]


I'm feeling magnanomous today--sorta like Warren Buffet...so, keep the change!

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." -- Lord Acton


#9 Dr T

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 04:26 PM

Hello Ben, I'm not trying to hijack your thread (in any way) so I hope this doesn't look like I am. I'm curious as to everyone's understanding of Christ's hyptostatic union and kenosis. Thanks, Dr. T
To base thought only on speech is to try nailing whispers to the wall. Writing freezes thought and offers it up for inspection Jack Rosenthal

#10 Ray

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 04:50 PM

"Life is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get." "I like the way my Momma explains things to me so I can understand them." *** pulls out the dictionary and thesaurus *** I'll get back to you later when I understand what you are trying to ask.

#11 Jason

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 05:08 PM

I agree with your personal feelings, Ben, and I will also say I know that is true.

And while everyone else can believe what they want about this, I still know what I know is true.
[/b]


The two Rules Ray lives by:

Rule #1. "Ray is never wrong."

Rule #2. "If Ray is wrong, please see Rule #1."



:wacko: :wacko: :wacko:

#12 Dr T

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 05:10 PM

Sorry for the typo. I meant to say "hypostatic union." That is, what you think of the nature of Jesus? Do you see it as the hypostatic union where He had a dual nature of being simultaneously God and Man? The concept of kenosis can wait. Thanks, Dr. T
To base thought only on speech is to try nailing whispers to the wall. Writing freezes thought and offers it up for inspection Jack Rosenthal

#13 BenRaines

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 05:35 PM

I am just a simple farm boy so will have to do some reading on those two states. Are they in the Midwest somewhere? Part mortal part God. Tempted yes but as PC said did not give in to temptation. Overcame all. Dr. T. Don't worry about hijacking anything. I sort of saw your study and took the idea and ran with it. Ben Raines
"If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts; but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties." Sir Francis Bacon

#14 Dr T

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 06:35 PM

Hi Ben, Can you speak to your idea of Jesus being, "Part mortal part God"? Thanks
To base thought only on speech is to try nailing whispers to the wall. Writing freezes thought and offers it up for inspection Jack Rosenthal

#15 BenRaines

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 08:46 PM

I believe that Christ is the son of God. Born of mortal mother, Mary, but of God or our Father in Heaven. Please do not ask me how it happened. The whole conception part. I wasn't there and do not know. I do believe that is how it was and have faith that it is so. Faith is not a perfect knowledge but a belief. I know that there are others that do not have faith so do not believe. I believe that this life is a life of the trial of our faith. Ben Raines
"If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts; but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties." Sir Francis Bacon

#16 Dr T

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 09:23 PM

Thank you Ben. OK; for arguments sake, what did that make him? 50% God 50% man? 80% 20%? Thanks
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#17 Guest_Monica_*

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 10:36 PM

About Christ, Jesus:

Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.

#18 Dr T

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 10:44 PM

Thanks Monica, I agree. Scripture tells us that He was without sin. The question is was He "able to not sin" or was "He not able to sin"? He was temptation by Satan but could the temptation truely have lead to sin or not? Thanks
To base thought only on speech is to try nailing whispers to the wall. Writing freezes thought and offers it up for inspection Jack Rosenthal

#19 Guest_ApostleKnight_*

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 06:40 AM

He was [tempted] by Satan but could the temptation truely have lead to sin or not?
[/b]


Good to see you back on the board Dr. T.

This issue can quickly get bogged down in semantics. I think the main thing to keep in mind is that Jesus did not sin, ever...period. However, moving on to your question above...

Jesus was unrestricted in his ability to make his own choices. There were no "handcuffs of goodness" that made it impossible to take certain courses of action or yield to temptation. However, Jesus's nature--perfect, mind you--guaranteed that he would always do his Father's will. Was it possible for him to sin? I guess it gets into semantics.

Yes, Jesus could have chosen to sin.

No, Jesus never did choose to sin.

A revelation to Joseph Smith sheds an interesting light on the subject, and I've taken the liberty of reproducing it below. It's in the Doctrine and Covenants.

"[Jesus] suffered temptations but gave no heed unto them." (D&C 20:22)

Simple and direct. Jesus had a mortal body as we do. His mortal body came complete with all the appetites that ours do. He felt the call to sate appetites as we do...however, if satisfying an appetite was forbidden by God, Jesus did not heed it. He simply did not focus on or entertain temptations, though he was--as Monica pointed out--tempted in all points as we are.

#20 prisonchaplain

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 08:12 AM

Thanks Monica,

I agree. Scripture tells us that He was without sin. The question is was He "able to not sin" or was "He not able to sin"? He was temptation by Satan but could the temptation truely have lead to sin or not?

Thanks
[/b]


I suppose the argument goes that if Jesus were/is God, and thus perfect, He would not be truly capable of sin, because the very ability would be seen as an imperfection. However, using this reasoning, you could create an equally compelling argument as to why Jesus had to be able to sin--if He couldn't He was limited. Furthermore, He did not have free will (or agency, as the terminology here goes). So, I would argue that the God who created us to have free will would have granted himself the same nature when he became incarnate.

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." -- Lord Acton





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