Christ-posse Non Peccare -able Not To Sin Or Non Posse Peccare - Not A

[BenRaines]

Dr. T. mentioned that he has been busy studying this topic. My personal feelings are that if he had not been able to sin then it would not have been a fair example of him coming to earth and setting an example for us to follow.

I believe that he was able to overcome all temptation but not unable to sin.

While sinning was possible it was not probable

Ben Raines

[Ray]

I agree with your personal feelings, Ben, and I will also say I know that is true.

And while everyone else can believe what they want about this, I still know what I know is true.

[Dr T]

Hello Ben and Ray,

Thanks for posting your thoughts on this issue. Do you believe that Jesus NEVER sinned? Not even in thought? Pride, lust, etc.?

Thanks

[Ray]

Yes, I believe that. And I know for a fact that is true. :)

[prisonchaplain]

Hello Ben and Ray,

Thanks for posting your thoughts on this issue. Do you believe that Jesus NEVER sinned? Not even in thought? Pride, lust, etc.?

Thanks

Oh, uh...excuse me, Ben! Ray, bro. Sorry didn't see you. Hope I didn't bump you too hard. Hi, Dr. T. Thought I'd throw my 2-cents in. Without prooftexting, I'm pretty confident that Christ was truly tempted, yet never sinned.

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

Hello Ben and Ray,

Thanks for posting your thoughts on this issue. Do you believe that Jesus NEVER sinned? Not even in thought? Pride, lust, etc.?

Thanks

Oh, uh...excuse me, Ben! Ray, bro. Sorry didn't see you. Hope I didn't bump you too hard. Hi, Dr. T. Thought I'd throw my 2-cents in. Without prooftexting, I'm pretty confident that Christ was truly tempted, yet never sinned.

Heh, just squeeze on in here, Tommy. We have plenty of room for you.

[Dr T]

Thanks PC. Sorry but I don't have change right now. Can I just take your two cents now and give you the change later?

Thanks

[prisonchaplain]

Thanks PC. Sorry but I don't have change right now. Can I just take your two cents now and give you the change later?

Thanks

I'm feeling magnanomous today--sorta like Warren Buffet...so, keep the change!

[Dr T]

Hello Ben,

I'm not trying to hijack your thread (in any way) so I hope this doesn't look like I am. I'm curious as to everyone's understanding of Christ's hyptostatic union and kenosis.

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Ray]

"Life is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get."

"I like the way my Momma explains things to me so I can understand them."

*** pulls out the dictionary and thesaurus ***

I'll get back to you later when I understand what you are trying to ask.

[Jason]

I agree with your personal feelings, Ben, and I will also say I know that is true.

And while everyone else can believe what they want about this, I still know what I know is true.

The two Rules Ray lives by:

Rule #1. "Ray is never wrong."

Rule #2. "If Ray is wrong, please see Rule #1."

[Dr T]

Sorry for the typo. I meant to say "hypostatic union." That is, what you think of the nature of Jesus? Do you see it as the hypostatic union where He had a dual nature of being simultaneously God and Man? The concept of kenosis can wait.

Thanks,

Dr. T

[BenRaines]

I am just a simple farm boy so will have to do some reading on those two states. Are they in the Midwest somewhere?

Part mortal part God. Tempted yes but as PC said did not give in to temptation. Overcame all.

Dr. T. Don't worry about hijacking anything. I sort of saw your study and took the idea and ran with it.

Ben Raines

[Dr T]

Hi Ben,

Can you speak to your idea of Jesus being, "Part mortal part God"?

Thanks

[BenRaines]

I believe that Christ is the son of God. Born of mortal mother, Mary, but of God or our Father in Heaven. Please do not ask me how it happened. The whole conception part. I wasn't there and do not know. I do believe that is how it was and have faith that it is so. Faith is not a perfect knowledge but a belief.

I know that there are others that do not have faith so do not believe. I believe that this life is a life of the trial of our faith.

Ben Raines

[Dr T]

Thank you Ben.

OK; for arguments sake, what did that make him? 50% God 50% man? 80% 20%?

Thanks

[Guest Monica]

About Christ, Jesus:

Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.

[Dr T]

Thanks Monica,

I agree. Scripture tells us that He was without sin. The question is was He "able to not sin" or was "He not able to sin"? He was temptation by Satan but could the temptation truely have lead to sin or not?

Thanks

[Guest ApostleKnight]

He was [tempted] by Satan but could the temptation truely have lead to sin or not?

Good to see you back on the board Dr. T.

This issue can quickly get bogged down in semantics. I think the main thing to keep in mind is that Jesus did not sin, ever...period. However, moving on to your question above...

Jesus was unrestricted in his ability to make his own choices. There were no "handcuffs of goodness" that made it impossible to take certain courses of action or yield to temptation. However, Jesus's nature--perfect, mind you--guaranteed that he would always do his Father's will. Was it possible for him to sin? I guess it gets into semantics.

Yes, Jesus could have chosen to sin.

No, Jesus never did choose to sin.

A revelation to Joseph Smith sheds an interesting light on the subject, and I've taken the liberty of reproducing it below. It's in the Doctrine and Covenants.

"[Jesus] suffered temptations but gave no heed unto them." (D&C 20:22)

Simple and direct. Jesus had a mortal body as we do. His mortal body came complete with all the appetites that ours do. He felt the call to sate appetites as we do...however, if satisfying an appetite was forbidden by God, Jesus did not heed it. He simply did not focus on or entertain temptations, though he was--as Monica pointed out--tempted in all points as we are.

[prisonchaplain]

Thanks Monica,

I agree. Scripture tells us that He was without sin. The question is was He "able to not sin" or was "He not able to sin"? He was temptation by Satan but could the temptation truely have lead to sin or not?

Thanks

I suppose the argument goes that if Jesus were/is God, and thus perfect, He would not be truly capable of sin, because the very ability would be seen as an imperfection. However, using this reasoning, you could create an equally compelling argument as to why Jesus had to be able to sin--if He couldn't He was limited. Furthermore, He did not have free will (or agency, as the terminology here goes). So, I would argue that the God who created us to have free will would have granted himself the same nature when he became incarnate.

[Dr T]

Thanks AK and PC,

Thanks AK. It good to be back. As you said Apostle Knight, He was tempted and was without sin. P.C. you hit it right on the head. It brings up those questions. There were heresies that sprang from them and something that was fun for me to look into. How do you resolve those P.C.?

Thanks

[Ray]

Faith is not a perfect knowledge but a belief.

I know that there are others that do not have faith so do not believe. I believe that this life is a life of the trial of our faith.

Ben Raines

Hi Ben,

I don't mean to be rude in picking apart your post, but I think it might help to share how faith really works.

And to put it simply (or in simple terms), faith is another word for "assurance", from any person who gives their assurance, so once a person knows an assurance is from God... while also knowing God does not lie... they then can really know that assurance is true, because they know that assurance came from God.

And the more assurances a person gets, the more they get to be familiar with the "voice" (not always audible) of the person who gave them that assurance, or the more they can get to know the person assuring them, so the more they can get to know God.

And any "voice" that leads a person to do good and put their faith in Jesus Christ, will help them continue to develop their own faith in Him, and the more they will get to know God.

So, while faith (or an assurance) from God may not begin as a perfect knowledge, at least not for a person first receiving it, the more they get to know when an assurance comes from God, the easier it will be for them to believe it, while knowing that assurance is true, because God does not lie, and ALWAYS tells the truth, so they can know any assurance from Him is the truth.

And that is why it is important for every one of us to get to know God, because otherwise we might believe and put our faith in what other people tell us came from God, and not all of that, or not all of what they say, is actually the truth or from God.

But can I say I know God? Or that I know what God has told me is true?

Of course I can, but you might not (and shouldn't) believe me, unless God also assures you of those truths.

Thus, my faith can't save anybody else but me, even though I know and I share what I know is the truth, because I know what I know God has assured me is true, just as that is how you will know too. :)

p.s. And I don't mean to say you don't know all of this, Ben. I just wanted to explain how faith works. :)

[Ray]

Dr. T.

Now that I understand what you were asking before, I think part of what you need to know to answer that question is knowing who and what God and Man really are, and to begin to know that you need to hear the idea presented to you assuring you that every Man, or all of Mankind, is literally a child of God, created by Him with a spirit like His, with the potential to become as perfect as God.

And to say a little more, since I know you will hear this at some point in your investigation, I’ll tell you that Jesus was perfect, or perfectly obedient, before He ever became mortal on Earth, and the only thing He lacked while He was living in heaven was a physical body like that of our Father in heaven… which He now has, from his birth and resurrection, just like we will have if and when we become perfect. And those who do not receive their body with a Celestial glory, will receive their body with a lower form of glory, just as suns and moons and stars have different degrees of glory.

And yes, I believe this, and I know this is true, because I received an assurance from God. And you will believe this if you ask to receive an assurance from God about this too. :)

And as Tommy keeps reminding me, for some people that takes a little while. So be patient, but keep asking God to tell you, that is, if you really want to know what is true. :)

[prisonchaplain]

Thanks AK and PC,

Thanks AK. It good to be back. As you said Apostle Knight, He was tempted and was without sin. P.C. you hit it right on the head. It brings up those questions. There were heresies that sprang from them and something that was fun for me to look into. How do you resolve those P.C.?

Thanks

I know there is an almost allergic reaction to the notion that some aspects of God's nature are mystery. It's not that God is confusing, but rather that He is God and we are humanity. His ways are not our ways. He is higher, greater, more. He created, we got created. So, when we try to analyze God's character by our own categories, dangers arise.

Is He God or man? Yes.

Was He perfect or could He have sinned? Yes.

What % was He God and what % man? 100%/100%

Wasn't He really just man in appearance, but really God? NO.

Wasn't He really just godlike, but simply a man whom God had chosen? NO.

Discussion like this bog down because false dichotamies are created. We say, "Well it's got to be either this way or that way--it can't be both." God says, "Really?"

Did I help or further muddy this?

[BenRaines]

Ray, No offense taken. I just don't have the time to type as much. :)

PC, true. I remember the old question. "If God is so powerful can he make a rock he cannot lift? If he cannot lift it then he is not all powerful" Lame example as far as I am concerned.

Ben Raines