Structured in other Christian demoninations?


girlygirl
 Share

Recommended Posts

Simply put, Christians of various denominations can enjoy fellowship with each other because the essentials of the Christian doctrine (doctrines pertaining to the nature of God and salvation) are commonly held. Christians are not saved by a church and are found in all Christian denominations. Christians come to Jesus for salvation and not to joining a church.

Latter-day Saints would agree that we come unto Christ for salvation. It isn't an either/or situation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 61
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

From this link:

"To be saved from both physical and spiritual death. All people will be saved from physical death by the grace of God, through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Each individual can also be saved from spiritual death as well by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ. This faith is manifested in a life of obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel and service to Christ."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's a very neat and tidy quotation but what does it really mean in every day terms?

Which parts don't you understand? Do you mean you want to know how "a life of obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" looks in quotidian life?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What is physical salvation....who gets it and on what basis? What is spiritual salvation...who gets it and on what basis, and what does it actually mean? Are physical and spiritual salvation the same thing...can a person get one without the other? What are the actual rewards of Mormon salvation? Where does a person go in their saved state...physical and spiritual? Within Mormonism what is God's grace and what role does it play in Mormon salvation?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. What is physical salvation?

Physical salvation is referring to resurrection, the joining together of the body and spirit never to be separated again.

2. Who gets it and on what basis?

This was answered in the quote. Here is the relevant part again, “All people will be saved from physical death by the grace of God, through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

3. What is spiritual salvation?

Spiritual salvation is referring to salvation from our sins, salvation from hell.

4. Who gets it and on what basis?

This was answered in the quote. Here is the relevant part again, “Each individual can also be saved from spiritual death as well by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ.”

5. What does it actually mean?

We believe that through faith we are saved by grace as it states in Ephesians 2. We further believe that “faith without works is dead” and that our faith is shown by our works as it states in James. In order to be saved from hell, one must have an alive faith. Thus, “faith is manifested in a life of obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel and service to Christ.”

6. Are physical and spiritual salvation the same thing?

No. Physical salvation is salvation from death. Spiritual salvation is salvation from hell.

7. Can a person get one without the other?

I don’t know.

8. What are the actual rewards of Mormon salvation?

The reward of physical salvation is immortality. The reward of spiritual salvation is exaltation.

9. Where does a person go in their saved state...physical and spiritual?

They go to one of the many mansions that Christ said he would prepare.

10. Within Mormonism what is God's grace and what role does it play in Mormon salvation?

Grace is, “The enabling power from God that allows men and women to obtain blessings in this life and to gain eternal life and exaltation after they have exercised faith, repented, and given their best effort to keep the commandments. Such divine help or strength is given through the mercy and love of God. Every mortal person needs divine grace because of Adam’s fall and also because of man’s weaknesses.”

I hope that helps somewhat. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you. If you have been following the thread my request for clarification was based on a need to clarify terms because so often when Mormons and orthodox Christians discuss they often use the same terms but mean quite different terms. The initial response I got was somewhat pat and I understand this. I teach an adult Bible study class and often people will respond to a question with the neat, pat answer, correct as far as it goes, but which does no require the person to really think through what they are saying. Orthodox Christianity teaches that all mankind will be resurrected but in and of itself there is no salvation in that. Orthodoxy teaches that salvation is inheritance of ALL that the Father has for those who are saved by his grace through Jesus Christ. The correct definition of grace is simply put "the favor of God that we do no deserve". Not one living person, save Jesus, deserves salvation...it cannot be earned...not by works and not by church ritual...it is purely a free gift from God to all who trust in Jesus for salvation. Works are the demonstration of the saving grace that has taken place in the heart of the trusting believer. We have no righteousness to claim as our own...as Paul said "..our righteousness is as filthy rags..." If we could earn grace it wouldn't be grace it would be earnings and God would owe us. Orthodoxy rest entirely on the shed blood of Christ at Calvary where he became sin for fallen man....where all my sin was nailed to the cross and stamped "payed in full"....so that when I stand before God I will be clothed in Christ's righteousness...righteousness borrowed from him and imputed to me through my faith and trust in him alone. It is interesting to compare beliefs but an important part of the comparisons is to be sure we are talking about the same thing behind the words...in this case I think we are not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What is physical salvation....who gets it and on what basis? What is spiritual salvation...who gets it and on what basis, and what does it actually mean? Are physical and spiritual salvation the same thing...can a person get one without the other? What are the actual rewards of Mormon salvation? Where does a person go in their saved state...physical and spiritual? Within Mormonism what is God's grace and what role does it play in Mormon salvation?

well according to lds theology,

Physical salvation is being saved from physical death, in other words the resurrection.. in which a physical body is permanently reunited with a spirit similar to what we have now only perfect/immortal. who gets it? everyone. since no one has any say over choosing physical death its only just everyone gets that salvation.

Spiritual salvation is being saved from being cast out from the presence of God, and recieving his glory (as well as being saved from the torment/anguish of sin).. this is not given to everyone automatically but only to those who accept Christ and follow him.

After a person is resurrected, once the final judgement comes they will be sent to a part of heaven that is dependant on how much they have accepted christ and are willing to follow and be obedient to him. Those who have accepted everythign and do all that he asks will recieve the greatest glory, and will be in the direct presence of God and Christ. The LDS call this celestial.

Those who accept christ but are not completely dilligent in repentence or in accepting everything will be assigned a place in heaven where they can meet with christ and be as angels, but will not be able to go where God the father is.

Then thirdly the individuals who have rejected the gospel and have suffered as christ has suffered but have in the end accepted christ will get a place in heaven but they will not be able to be in the presence of God or Christ or any of the greater glories.

And lastly those who still choose to reject God and Christ and choose sin and evil over them will be cast out to outer darkness.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, what you are suggesting is that spiritual salvation is determined by works here in life. Jump through all the hoops and you get the top reward...jump through only a few and get a lesser reward. Can you explain where God's grace is in that? I do not believe there are degrees of God's grace...it is all of nothing with God and I think that scripture bears this out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, what you are suggesting is that spiritual salvation is determined by works here in life. Jump through all the hoops and you get the top reward...jump through only a few and get a lesser reward. Can you explain where God's grace is in that? I do not believe there are degrees of God's grace...it is all of nothing with God and I think that scripture bears this out.

I feel these are biblical accounts that suggest there are varying degree's of glory, what is your interpretation?

1 Corianthains 3:8

"Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labor."

1 Corianthains 15:40-42

"There are also celestial bodies and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:"

The JST inserts telestial in the first verse as well, to correspond with the 3rd glory of the stars.

We believe that the physical resurection is the free portion of the atonement. To be exalted, we will be judged by our works based on our ability, my own personal belief is alot hangs on individual effort, his grace makes up for where we fall short if he judges us worthy to enter the kingdom of God. As I understand it we believe the vast majority of people will make it to the lower two kingdoms, few will make it to the highest degree of glory.

edit: Preganacy occures in stages, therefore 1 month pregnant isn't "as pregnant" as 8 months pregnant. One who is 1 month pregnant will not necesarily get to 8 months (as terrible as that sounds).

Edited by jerome1232
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In understanding any scripture it is important to read the entire section to see what is actually being discussed. Chapter 3 of 1st Corinthians is addressing problems and divisions within the church beset by jealousies and disagreements. Paul is talking about the various labors that are necessary for a cohesive church to mature in Christ. There is no application here to rewards in heaven...it simply isn't the topic of the chapter.

In chapter 15 Paul is talking of the nature of resurrection and in the passage you quote he is specifically talking about how the resurrected body will be different from the physical body we now have and he uses various comparisons. In verse 39 he says: "Not all flesh is the same. Men have one kind of flesh, animals another, birds another, and fish another." He then points out the difference between heavenly bodies (likely in this instance referring to angels) and our earthly bodies. Adding a third comparison he contrasts the splendor of the sun to the moon and how even the stars have a different splendor, often one from another. These are analogies to how the resurrected body will be totally different from the physical body...for believers it will be a glorified body. Following on from the verses you extracted Paul continues his point: "So it will be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is now perishable, it is raised imperishable..."

You simply can't take a passage on one subject, extract one verse and argue that it is somehow a proof text for something else.

You mention that JST "inserts"....there you have it, the crux of the problem.... no matter, his insertions are not borne out by the context of Paul's sermon.

I'll pretend you didn't add the comment about pregnancy. A woman either is pregnant or she is not...stages have nothing to do with it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can't accept that. A person is either saved or they are not. You can't be only a little pregnant, you can't be only a little saved.

Takes work to get pregnant, and it takes work to keep the baby. And there is more than one type of pregnancy, nor are all pregnancies the same. Not sure this would be the best imagery for what youre probably trying to convey.

One could just as easily say its an apple or its not, or you are in the US or Not, or you are big or you are not. The problem with such statements is that they leave out a lot of information and are vague.

You have no more obligation to accept anything someone else says than they have to accept what you say. I dont recall anyone saying you had to accept one thing or another in this discussion. Besides you asked for clarification on what lds views on salvation were, correct?

Edited by Blackmarch
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Really learned a lot of how each sees the truth on this thread. What church to attend as it started.

Can we fellowship with other christians it sort of seemed like.

Having respect for all the posters in this forum is like attending with them.

Didn't Jesus say something about, ' if they are not against me , ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think we are splitting hairs here. My point is that a woman is either pregnant or she is not...there are no inbetweens...two months or six months she is still pregnant....and I don't intend to be sidetracked by a silly issue of semantics. The only reason I asked for clarification is as I stated...LDS and non LDS often use the same terms but mean something very different as is the case with the word "salvation" as has been covered earlier in the thread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't know if this helps, but many Christians (not all) would allow that in heaven there are varieties of "rewards," or "responsibilities." The mansions described, the streets of gold, etc. are for all. Further, everyone will find deep and challenging meaning and purpose. However, some will have more responsiblity, or greater honor. We do not know how that looks, but it is what I see in examples like the parable of talents, or the casting of seeds with 30, 60 and 100-fold results.

LDS seem to take this further, in the doctrine of three heavenly kingdoms. Of course, the LDS teachings are based on revelations that Protestants and Catholics have not accepted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have no problem is essence with what you say but would like scriptural support...the details of heaven are IMV sketchy at best so I content myself with the idea of being present with God my Savior. I do like the scriptural idea that any accolades of life we receive through our faith will be rewarded with crowns in heaven.....crowns that we will cast at the feet of the Savior. My favorite hymn conveys my thinking in this area: "When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died. My richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride." I do perhaps have a problem with the way you suggest "LDS seem to take this further". It sort of implies to me that some allowance should be made for them and that this "taking thing further" is a natural growth process of gospel understanding. IMV is it an add on that is not supported by scripture but fall into the category of "another gospel". I am sure that is not what you mean to say.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Taking a doctrine further" need not imply any allowance or acceptance. In this context, I simply meant that the idea of varying rewards is taken to the point of different kingdoms, and with some of God's followers being exalted and others not, etc. Additionally, the primary foundations for the LDS teachings about these mutliple heavens comes from revelations that we traditionalist believers have not accepted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nora: Mormons and orthodox Christians (not the best term but an easy one for distinction of the differences) cannot, IMV, have fellowship. The divisions are too deep and too substantial for meaningful fellowship on theological grounds. I know you would disagree but I believe I worship a different Jesus from the Mormon Jesus, for instance. As I understand it, the Mormon Jesus is a created being, a spirit child of a god who was once a man who was exalted to godhood to have spirit children with a spirit wife. Without getting into that debate, orthodoxy rejects that concept as heresy of the worst kind, denying Jesus the diety that entitles him to everything else. The orthodox Jesus is Emannuel, God with us....the literal human manifestation of one God..."In the beginning was the Word (Jesus is the Word) , and the Word was with God, and the Word was with God."

If one or the other's very understanding of just who Jesus is is wrong, if we perceive him in totally different ways and we clothe him in opposing theology, I don't see how one or other of us is not against him. I rest my case and my faith entirely on Jesus and the revelation of him in the Bible....from my viewpoint Mormons put a great deal of faith in the teaching of Joseph Smith so I suppose ultimately, Mormonism stands or falls on the veracity of Joseph Smith and his character above all else. I believe Mormons are sincere in their desire (Romans 10: 1-4 comes to mind) to do what is right but they place an awful lot of trust in the man Joseph Smith. Jesus only is the way, the truth, and the life. Are you sure you are placing your trust there?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe I worship a different Jesus from the Mormon Jesus, for instance.

And this may well be the case. Latter-day Saints worship the Jesus preached in the Bible. I cannot say with any authority which Jesus pendragon worships, but it indeed may not be the Biblical Jesus worshiped by Latter-day Saints.

orthodoxy rejects that concept as heresy of the worst kind

As opposed to all the other, more acceptable kinds of heresy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Vort: Now who is guilty of sarcasm? I clearly defined the Jesus I believe in supported by the Bible. If you have a reference from the Bible for God as an exalted man and Jesus as the spirit son of this exalted man and one of his spiritual wives I'd be happy to consider it. I suspect, too, that you would have trouble finding one from the Book of Mormon even. But then Mormons tend to do you take my comment out of the contect in which it was given...an explanation to Nora as to why Mormons and orthodox Christians cannot have fellowship.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Vort: Now who is guilty of sarcasm?

I was not being sarcastic in my comment about Biblical Christianity being the Christianity of the Latter-day Saints.

I clearly defined the Jesus I believe in supported by the Bible.

Hardly. Your views of God are based on early Christian heresies which themselves are based on neoplatonism. Of course, I don't expect you to admit this; you are much too invested in your beliefs. That's fine. I have no desire to convert you. But I take your snide remarks about worshiping "a different Jesus" at face value. I am certainly willing to accept your word that you worship a "different Jesus"; you are the ultimate authority on who or what you worship, whether the son of God or a Mexican gardener.

But you are certainly no authority on who or what the Latter-day Saints worship. I am.

If you have a reference from the Bible for God as an exalted man and Jesus as the spirit son of this exalted man and one of his spiritual wives I'd be happy to consider it.

No, you would not. You would spin the teachings to mean something else, just as you spin the clear teachings of a physical, embodied God as metaphorical.

I know of nowhere in the Bible that teaches that Jesus had two eyes or ten fingers, yet amazingly, I still believe it.

I suspect, too, that you would have trouble finding one from the Book of Mormon even.

I have much better even than the Book of Mormon or the Bible. I have latter-day prophets, including living prophets, who teach me the truths of God.

But then Mormons tend to do you take my comment out of the contect in which it was given...

I don't believe this qualfies as a meaningful English sentence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share