Intersexed Members of the Church

[perfsfam]

I am looking for feedback on Intersexed members of the church. This term is sometimes referred to as transexuals. What is your thoughts about these members of the church and their unique situations. I know multiple members that have this condition, some that are bearing this as is and others that have chosen to transition and their status in the church is unchanged. What are your thoughts-good, bad, ugly-are they sinners and is it just a state of mind that with enough prayer that this condition can be changed or reconditioned out of their systems, or if they should be permitted to still recieve full benefits of membership in the church.

[Guest FixingTheWrongs]

I'm not familiar with the term. Are we talking about men who wear dresses and women who wear a shirt and tie to church? or people who went all the way and changed them selves anatomically?

[Guest mysticmorini]

Paraphrasing from the CHI (church handbook of instructions) People who have undergone an elective gender changing operation may be baptized but may not receive the priesthood or go to the temple (even for baptisms) So I'd say that if they have repented and been found worthy for baptism they should be considered no different than any other member of the church.

I wonder though, what is the status of members who were born transgendered? Are they allowed to hold the priesthood?

[Guest FixingTheWrongs]

You got me thinking now about what will likely happen to these people when they are resurrected. My thinking is they will revert back to the gender they were when born.

[Spartan117]

I have a friend whose son Stephen showed up as Emily to his bday party a few weeks ago. Legally changed name, hormone replacement therapy, very interesting.

I have rock solid beliefs and understandings about the homosexual stuff. But the transgendered/intersex (whatever is the least offensive) person and community isn't sure either. Here is what wikipedia says, and you can tell they tried extra hard to mix and match words with ideas that confused even themselves. This explanation has to be the most vague and ambiguous collection of "politically correct" phrases that has ever been written. I've heard politicians answer questions more definitively than this ...

Transgender is a general term applied to a variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups involving tendencies to vary from culturally conventional gender roles.

Transgender is the state of one's "gender identity" (self-identification as woman, man, neither or both) not matching one's "assigned sex" (identification by others as male, female or intersex based on physical/genetic sex). "Transgender" does not imply any specific form of sexual orientation; transgender people may identify as heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, polysexual, or asexual; some may consider conventional sexual orientation labels inadequate or inapplicable to them. The precise definition for transgender remains in flux, but includes:

* "Of, relating to, or designating a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender roles, but combines or moves between these."

* "People who were assigned a sex, usually at birth and based on their genitals, but who feel that this is a false or incomplete description of themselves."

*"Non-identification with, or non-presentation as, the sex (and assumed gender) one was assigned at birth."

A transgender individual may have characteristics that are normally associated with a particular gender, identify elsewhere on the traditional gender continuum, or exist outside of it as "other", "agender", "Genderqueer", or "third gender". Transgender people may also identify as bigender, or along several places on either the traditional transgender continuum, or the more encompassing continuums which have been developed in response to the significantly more detailed studies done in recent years.

I love how weird we are to the world.

[Sali]

Paraphrasing from the CHI (church handbook of instructions) People who have undergone an elective gender changing operation may be baptized but may not receive the priesthood or go to the temple (even for baptisms) So I'd say that if they have repented and been found worthy for baptism they should be considered no different than any other member of the church.

I wonder though, what is the status of members who were born transgendered? Are they allowed to hold the priesthood?

I think the reason for withholding Temple blessings, priesthood etc, could be due to the confusion as even though on earth a female may change to a male, eternally they could still be female. The body may be changed, but the Spirit will still hold the original gender.

[Guest gopecon]

Whatever confusion a person might have as to their gender, everyone (with the rare exception of those born with both genitalia) is either chromosomally (if that's a word) and genetically either male or female. Mutilating one's body to resemble the other gender does not change the chromosomal make up of that person. I'm confident in saying that they will be resurrected as the gender they were born with. As to the question about people who were "born transgendered", I believe that this situation is no different than those who were "born gay". If they are able to live chaste lives, and are also willing to not make a public show out of their identity crisis (i.e. men wearing dresses in public, etc.), then they should be able to fully participate in the blessings of the Gospel.

[Guest mysticmorini]

I think the reason for withholding Temple blessings, priesthood etc, could be due to the confusion as even though on earth a female may change to a male, eternally they could still be female. The body may be changed, but the Spirit will still hold the original gender.

I completely agree. Also if an electively transgendered person were to go to the temple which changing room would they use? See how that alone would cause problems.

So what about those born with both genders? Or more correctly both genitalia. Do they have a spirit with one gender or is it too multiple genders?

Whatever confusion a person might have as to their gender, everyone (with the rare exception of those born with both genitalia) is either chromosomally (if that's a word) and genetically either male or female. Mutilating one's body to resemble the other gender does not change the chromosomal make up of that person. I'm confident in saying that they will be resurrected as the gender they were born with. As to the question about people who were "born transgendered", I believe that this situation is no different than those who were "born gay". If they are able to live chaste lives, and are also willing to not make a public show out of their identity crisis (i.e. men wearing dresses in public, etc.), then they should be able to fully participate in the blessings of the Gospel.

What about those who were literally born transgendered (i.e. born with both genitalia) why are they not worthy to receive temple blessings like homosexuals are? I still wonder if they are allowed to even receive the priesthood or not.

[Guest gopecon]

I don't think that one's physical condition at birth will preclude them from any blessings in this life. I'm not sure exactly how that works with hermaphrodites (those born with male and female parts), but a physical condition at birth (clearly not the result of sin) will not limit mortal ordinances or eternal blessings (except for the fact that it may be more difficult to find an eternal companion).

[Dravin]

Also if an electively transgendered person were to go to the temple which changing room would they use? See how that alone would cause problems.

No more so than the question of which dressing room homosexuals use causes problems.

[Guest mysticmorini]

No more so than the question of which dressing room homosexuals use causes problems.

I see that as being less of a problem because of the way the changing rooms are set up (although heck they could almost be unisex with the private stalls for changing) and its not as if a homosexual is going to molest you in the changing room of the temple, where as for modesty sake a women might not want a man to see her in the changing room. But I do see your point.

[LDSJewess]

Just my opinion of course but my take on this is that if a child is born with their gender in question or with two genetailia or none, that is a birth defect and one may need to have gender declared perhaps by medical professionals.

But this is a far different thing than an adult using their free agency and conscious choice to have their bodies physically altered to be different thawhat they were born on this earth with. But a woman that chooses to become a physical man should not be holding the priesthood or be called to the Bishopric, and more than a man who physically chooses to become a female be called to become the relief society president.

There are very clear and defined gender roles when it comes to the church and certainly in the Temple. So I do not think this is something that could be condoned.

Just my opinion for what it is worth.

[Backroads]

My random thoughts:

I do believe you are either masculine or feminine. The eternal soul is one or the other.

That being said, I do believe this is sometimes the case for people who don't feel right about their genders.

I know of a girl who was born with male genitilia. She was thus raised as a boy for a good chunk of her childhood. Acted quite girly. Turned out, chromosome-speaking, she was female with a birth defect. I understand that she has been married in the temple.

[Traveler]

In the field of science it has been established for some time concerning cognitive conditioned behaviors. Usually this is classified as either the lowest cognitive level of learning or the higher than lowest cognitive level of learning. However, for whatever reason the politics of sexuality has overridden science and thus gender issues have become more political than rational. For example in the 70’s the American Psychological Association declared gender related issues are not states of psychological conditions and therefore cannot be legally treated within the USA. Although the APA claims to be scientific this statement was given as policy without any scientific reference or data.

My point is not to create an atmosphere of debate but rather to point out that there is no scientific data to declare gender issues as exceptions to cognitive conditioned behaviors. The big argument usually boils down to the lack of success in altering the sexual behavior. However, in reality there are few cognitive conditioned behaviors that are based on the release of physical “pleasure” chemistry that have ever been successfully treated. Drug addictions, alcoholism, various adrenalin junky addictions and phobic responses are seldom completely cured but are addressed with various methods of suppression and abstinence.

Those that suffer from misappropriated cognitive sexual conditioning should not be treated that much different than other addiction such as alcoholism. A repentant alcoholic know that not only must they abstain from alcohol but they must also remove themselves from the cognitive triggers that lead to submission. As long as they are willing to rehabilitate they can be encouraged and fellowshipped - but anyone that has worked with an alcoholic knows that any attempt to rehabilitate a alcoholic that refuses to avoid alcohol and cognitive triggers to “drink” will never be able to modify their drinking behaviors. And just like there are many alcoholics that are good people able to contribute to society - it is important to also recognize that their contributions are never enhanced by an inebriated state. In other words - being drunk (a drunken state) does not help society. Likewise I personally do not see a single benefit for society that comes from gender confusion.

The Traveler

Edited August 29, 2011 by Traveler

[bcguy]

Other then physical features, do not forget about how the brain is wired. Interesting article.

Gay Men, Straight Women Have Similar Brains

[FunkyTown]

I can answer this one! We had a transgendered individual in our ward.

Officially, if one is born with both male and female genitalia, but the doctors chose to make them either male or female, and the person later gets a 'sex change' operation, then they may be baptized as full members, including going to the temple. This has to be sent up the line, though.

The reasoning being that the Doctors may have made a mistake, whereas someone born male is not a mistake of mortality.

[bytebear]

I can see the hesitation to do proxy work (and temple ordinances), since it is gender specific (males performing for males, females for females). Baptism for oneself is gender neutral. If there is ambiguity then it should be avoided. However, I can totally see an apostle through revelation confirm the true gender of a member (regardless of ambiguity - including gender reassignment) to be allowed full participation in temple worship.

[kayne]

i think those that transgender themselves later as adult they are likely going to die and be resurrected as their birth gender. im also of the belief God would never make anyone be born gay or want to change your sex and yet command males and females to pair up and have kids it somehow defines logic. my thought is in the pre life our spirit obviously gained its personality and part of that could be that spirit leaned towards being gay so it merely is manifesting itsself here. that also said it makes sense transgender people are held back a bit. i suspect theres an unspoken sin they committed on top of the overall society as a whole doesnt know how to handle transgender folk and the churches clear gender roles probably play into this as well so i suspect the attitude is The Lord will handle it when He sees fit.

those with both gentilia at birth i have no idea. though what i have read on the matter is it is rather rare and normally one sex appears to be more dominant. for instance the vagina hole is more normal sized but the penis is extremely small or vice versa. and doctors tend to recommend declaring a gender then and removing the other one and usually they prefer the more dominant gender. though it is likely the parents choice. that said we have no idea whether the spirit of that person is male or female so i can really see the church being unsure especially as it was pointed out bapitism is neutral everything else isnt. though i would think the dominant showing sex is probably the one that spirit is but we cant know for sure.

though if you got changed to a male at birth i really dont see the problem performing the male side of the church since you grew up like that.

i hope that didnt sound offensive i tried not too be. my apologies if it did just my two cents on the matter.

[Laureltree]

I can answer this one! We had a transgendered individual in our ward.

Officially, if one is born with both male and female genitalia, but the doctors chose to make them either male or female, and the person later gets a 'sex change' operation, then they may be baptized as full members, including going to the temple. This has to be sent up the line, though.

The reasoning being that the Doctors may have made a mistake, whereas someone born male is not a mistake of mortality.

You are talking about a Hermaphrodite, that is not the same as transgendered. Transgendered are born male or female, yet choose to be the opposite sex....not born female & male and someone else chooses for them. Transgendered normally under go a sexual change & physical change , along with voice therapy and other procedures. This does not follow along with the guidelines of the church , as does someone who's born a hermaphrodite, and the parents or DR mistakenly pick the wrong sex....This is a choice.

Hermaphrodite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[bytebear]

It's not as easy as just picking a gender if you are born with genetic dispositions for both. Most people are born XX or XY, but some are XXY or XXYY or a dozen variations. In those case you really are neither male nor female, or both. So, it really is something that cannot be determined by a medical decision. Some people never identify as a single gender. As we discover more about genetics and what makes one inclined to be gay/transgendered, etc., the policies of the church will change. It is already changing in fact. For at least the past decade, the focus has been on the sin of fornication and not the inclinations of the person. But certain blessings are gender based (either individually or as a couple) and I don't see that changing - so perhaps committed gay couples could be endowed, but not sealed (at least not as spouses). They certainly cannot inherit the blessings of Abraham since it will always require a person of the opposite gender to make that blessing possible no matter how liberal your views are.

[Laureltree]

The ones that cannot tell which genetics they are....Are Hermaphrodites....NOT Transgendered....Transgendered are born male/female and choose to be the opposite sex, they then get a sex change and other procedures from there to create what they choose to be.....A Hermaphrodite is born with both, and it’s very hard to tell which gender they should be. Hermaphrodite is a medical condition caused by mix croms......Where Transgendered disorder is a choice....that an individual makes on their own NOT made by god. You need to make sure you are correctly explaining which is which....at this point you are inaccurate.... Policy of the church will not change, just like the scriptures have not changed on this subject, I find it funny how society likes to manipulate the scriptures as well as change them to fit their needs, rather than living god’s will. The gospel will never conform to people....There are laws and covenants, we cannot just go rewriting them because I want to wear a blue hat today, be gay today, drink a beer today....We live the laws as they are written, because they are written for a reason. May I ask where you are from bytebear ? and are you lds ?

It's not as easy as just picking a gender if you are born with genetic dispositions for both. Most people are born XX or XY, but some are XXY or XXYY or a dozen variations. In those case you really are neither male nor female, or both. So, it really is something that cannot be determined by a medical decision. Some people never identify as a single gender. As we discover more about genetics and what makes one inclined to be gay/transgendered, etc., the policies of the church will change. It is already changing in fact. For at least the past decade, the focus has been on the sin of fornication and not the inclinations of the person. But certain blessings are gender based (either individually or as a couple) and I don't see that changing - so perhaps committed gay couples could be endowed, but not sealed (at least not as spouses). They certainly cannot inherit the blessings of Abraham since it will always require a person of the opposite gender to make that blessing possible no matter how liberal your views are.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Laureltree

[bytebear]

There are several aspects. Yes, hermaphrodites have an obvious outward appearance and clear genetic markers. But there are also other aspects. Sexual attraction and gender identity. Both of which have norms, but also have variations. One can be attracted to the opposite sex, but still feel that ones gender is wrong. So, how can it be a sexual sin to be natural in your sexual attraction and simply change your outward appearance and possibly behavior? And just because we know the genetic markers that make gender ambiguous, doesn't mean we wont find markers that equally define ones sexual orientation or gender identity. By the way, most gay people identify as their given gender. In other words, the myth that most lesbians are butch and most gay men are effeminate is dated and ignorant. So, it sounds like the church's policies on gender identity are more lenient than homosexuality, simply because gender identity does not necessarily involve sexual sin.

[Laureltree]

I understand what you are saying now....but to me they are just doing what the rest of us are doing when we act upon our weaknesses..I dont think god would intentionally state in the bible not to do something, and then create gays, les, trans and say... sorry folks...deal with it. I think we are all born with weaknesses, and its up to us on weather we act upon them...its all about choice....

[Laureltree]

"the myth that most lesbians are butch and most gay men are effeminate is dated and ignorant."

I disagree with this too, I know too many who do not fit into the roles given by society....

[Guest mysticmorini]

Just like the myth that all mormons marry in there early tweenties, have 5 kids by there thirties and drive mini vans or suburbans?