Intersexed Members of the Church


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I understand what you are saying now....but to me they are just doing what the rest of us are doing when we act upon our weaknesses..I dont think god would intentionally state in the bible not to do something, and then create gays, les, trans and say... sorry folks...deal with it. I think we are all born with weaknesses, and its up to us on weather we act upon them...its all about choice....

I believe the church is far more concerned with the gay lifestyle, and gay culture which promotes promiscuity that it does about homosexual identity.

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"the myth that most lesbians are butch and most gay men are effeminate is dated and ignorant."

I disagree with this too, I know too many who do not fit into the roles given by society....

only because they stand out as being gay. I promise you, for every flamboyant gay you know, there are at least 3 whom you would be shocked to discover were gay.

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only because they stand out as being gay. I promise you, for every flamboyant gay you know, there are at least 3 whom you would be shocked to discover were gay.

Exactly. You see a non-effeminate man, is he:

1) A non-effeminate straight man.

2) A non-effeminate gay man.

With a bias towards assuming effeminate men are gay and non-effeminate gay are straight then you'll assume case 1 even if case 2 is reality.

And then of course you see an effeminate man, is he:

1) An effeminate straight man.

2) And effeminate gay man.

Likewise you'll assume since he's effeminate he must be case 2 even if case 1 is the reality.

Good old confirmation bias at work in casual observation. And the small sample size one might personally know, generally, isn't large enough to extrapolate to the general population.

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  • 3 months later...

Hi:

I am brand new here and came here looking for wisdom on various LDS policies. The reply refers to your question about Inter-sex individuals.

I was recently told that one line of thinking about Intersex people who live as opposite their assigned birth gender, is that their spirit was that gender and that is what they seek. This from a Medical Doctor with understanding of holistic medicine. While I am most aquainted with conventional Western Medicine, this whole Inter-sex/transgender area has been extremely painful to those affected by it.

To fill in a little vocabulary, in conventional circles, those with XY chromosomes are generally considered male, and those with XX chromosomes are considered female. Especially in the last decade, since the study of genetics has rapidly increased, most researchers have come to understand that XX and XY represent opposite ends of a spectrum with thousands of combinations between.

Inter-sexed people have variations in their chromosomes that "smear" their genetics, making their gender presentation unclear to various degrees at times. 46,XX/46, XY causes hermaphroditisim and there are thousands of other combinations. In addition, there are XY individuals who have a damaged Y, and are sometimes said to have PAIS or AIS.

For far too long religious institutions have been inexcusably ignorant of the ramifications of these conditions and have meted out horrific punishments for them. In my opinion, the LDS are better than most, but have a ways to go, even now.

I am not mentioning Gay or Lesbians, though in time I think that we will find a genetic problem there. This is strictly about the Inter-sexed, some of whom are transgender-ed.

I do hope that this helps the discussion. This was an LDS Doctor that I was talking to.

Hala

Edited by Hala401
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Other then physical features, do not forget about how the brain is wired. Interesting article.

Gay Men, Straight Women Have Similar Brains

Yes, and keep in mind that how the brain is wired is not a direct reflection of the spiritual self. We are given temporary physical passions in this life in the form of our body, which includes hormones and the wiring of the hypothalamus and frontal lobes etc. This does not match how we are spiritually "wired" in everyone at least to some degree. There are many physical traits, likely, that belong to this world only, for example sleep wake patterns.

If a person, for example, has a strong hper2 gene that relates to the amount of protein a person releases in the suprachiasmatic nucleus in the hypothalamus then they will have a tendency to be a "night owl". That goes directly against the teaching of early to bed early to rise. So, now they have a genetic influence against a teaching that they have to battle in a bigger way than most people.

There are many examples of this including all sorts of addictive tendencies, for alcohol, video games, sexual addictions etc. The struggle is in the fact that our spiritual personality does not match the body's "personality". That is true for everyone but in different ways. I doubt my spiritual self craved donuts on Fast Sunday before I got here. Where does that craving come from, not my spirit.

When an individual is born with an extra chromosome 21 or 18 we know for sure that is not a reflection of the spiritual identity of that individual. I think that same notion would apply to any genetic driven trait that undergoes mutation and alteration since the day Adam fell.

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Thank you. I have spent a lot of time talking to the LDS, and one day may get wet. LOL In terms of my spirituality, they seem to be like no other group of people I have examined, and I sometimes wonder if they will be the tide that turns the battle back to the original teachings of The Christ.

There is still a lot to be learned and understood, and I do agree that sexual activity outside of marriage is not constructive, if we assume that the purpose of said activity is to insure the survival of the species. I am caught between compassion for those who do not fit, and the desire to be pleasing to God.

I am happy that were I ever to become LDS, I would not face the responsibilities of the priesthood.

Hala

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Paraphrasing from the CHI (church handbook of instructions) People who have undergone an elective gender changing operation may be baptized but may not receive the priesthood or go to the temple (even for baptisms) So I'd say that if they have repented and been found worthy for baptism they should be considered no different than any other member of the church.

I wonder though, what is the status of members who were born transgendered? Are they allowed to hold the priesthood?

Id imagine that such will get an opportunity to choose whichever path, and would be able to get the blessings of such.... No idea for sure on that tho.
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Id imagine that such will get an opportunity to choose whichever path, and would be able to get the blessings of such.... No idea for sure on that tho.

In my years of researching public awareness of these issues, I see a lot of growth and change. To be clear, I am not speaking of the Gay/Lesbian issue, but of Intersex/transgender issues, which are clearly very separate. I have spoken with intersex people who have no physical drives at all.

In my experience, the LDS seem to do a better job of treating these things in a compassionate manner than most I have talked to, though some Muslims, due to the structure of their society do very well at times. It does, of course depend upon individual circumstances.

I think to mistreat those we do not understand makes us less human, and to say that we understand that which we do not makes us less Godly.

Hala

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In my years of researching public awareness of these issues, I see a lot of growth and change. To be clear, I am not speaking of the Gay/Lesbian issue, but of Intersex/transgender issues, which are clearly very separate. I have spoken with intersex people who have no physical drives at all.

In my experience, the LDS seem to do a better job of treating these things in a compassionate manner than most I have talked to, though some Muslims, due to the structure of their society do very well at times. It does, of course depend upon individual circumstances.

I think to mistreat those we do not understand makes us less human, and to say that we understand that which we do not makes us less Godly.

Hala

Having a better understanding of God's plan for us, being able to see the before and after this life to some degree helps all of us deal with what we know to be temporary and "probationary" situations. I think this also allows us to be Christ-like when we see a person as a spirit child of God. That always puts a different perspective on things than just seeing a person as their current bodily features. This is why Jesus had no problem approaching the lepers and the sinner and the rich and famous and whoever, He looks at the inside, the real person.

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Having a better understanding of God's plan for us, being able to see the before and after this life to some degree helps all of us deal with what we know to be temporary and "probationary" situations. I think this also allows us to be Christ-like when we see a person as a spirit child of God. That always puts a different perspective on things than just seeing a person as their current bodily features. This is why Jesus had no problem approaching the lepers and the sinner and the rich and famous and whoever, He looks at the inside, the real person.

This is very hard to explain to people who dont understand our beliefs. We have an eternal perspective, or try to have, which is entirely different than a mortal life only perspective.

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This is very hard to explain to people who dont understand our beliefs. We have an eternal perspective, or try to have, which is entirely different than a mortal life only perspective.

It continues to puzzle me why LDS call themselves Christians, but they are adamant about it, so I give up, I can not argue. So, as a way to cope with this, when I was still meeting with the Sister Missionaries in Kirtland, OH, I decided that the Christianity I originally came from was version 1.0, and the LDS are version 8.0, because the LDS, in my mind are nothing at all like the Christianity I grew up with.

In my mind, the LDS are in some ways more like Muslims, perhaps. I will not try to engage in deep eschatology with you but in some ways, LDS beliefs are deeply different from evangelical beliefs, and that has come clear in my conversations with the missionaries. I mean it, there are in my mind, profound and important differences.

If you study Calvanisim/Armenianisim and many of those basic beliefs, you will see the difference and I think it is good. Mashallah, I feel priveleged to be able to attend this forum and once again have someone to study and share with.

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It continues to puzzle me why LDS call themselves Christians, but they are adamant about it, so I give up, I can not argue.

Because we believe that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior. I understand that there is, from certain perspectives, a wide gulf between our beliefs and those of more mainstream Christians. But a Model-T and a 2012 Corvette are both cars despite the differences.

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If its not clear why we are version 1, its because we are the ancient church just in modern times. :)

As time has gone by more and more was changed so that it is hard sometimes to see the ancient church in many Christian churches which is why they are various changed, (updated) versions. :)

I was thinking about that, and thank you, I have to agree with you.

If someone wants to dispute that, well, to me it is clear that after the crucifixion there was much turmoil. The Essenes and Gnostics were exterminated. I do not know who did it but I suspect that it was the same people who eventually founded the Catholic Church. In that same general period of 0-450 AD, Hypatia of Alexandra was also brutally murdered, and the library she was care taker of was burned. There is some thought that followers loyal to her took part of the library off to the desert and hid it. She did not have much to do with Christianity, but it shows the general mind set of the time.

OK, now I will say that we, the LDS are version 1.0 and the rest are degraded to versions 2-8.0. LOL

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Its just a simple fact, that it is a DNA issue, not a sin issue. I knew one, she is now a he. And I did not know this fact at work.

Its also a known fact with MRI images, that lesbian brains are wired like that of a male, male gas is wired like that of a female. It is just nature the DNA process did not complete or stalled the process to be either 100% female or male.

I am looking for feedback on Intersexed members of the church. This term is sometimes referred to as transexuals. What is your thoughts about these members of the church and their unique situations. I know multiple members that have this condition, some that are bearing this as is and others that have chosen to transition and their status in the church is unchanged. What are your thoughts-good, bad, ugly-are they sinners and is it just a state of mind that with enough prayer that this condition can be changed or reconditioned out of their systems, or if they should be permitted to still recieve full benefits of membership in the church.

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Its just a simple fact, that it is a DNA issue, not a sin issue. I knew one, she is now a he. And I did not know this fact at work.

Its also a known fact with MRI images, that lesbian brains are wired like that of a male, male gas is wired like that of a female. It is just nature the DNA process did not complete or stalled the process to be either 100% female or male.

Wow, the LDS are progressive in an extremely admirable way. In most evangelical circles, to tell someone that you are Transgendered is social suicide. The assume that the person is in fact having lewd relationships with everyone including the local fire hydrant.

I once knew a person who had long been very active in their church, going to the mission field, and doing all sorts of charitable activities, but when he decided that he was really a woman, they did everything but burn him or her at the stake.

This is most amazing.

Hala

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