IVF (in vitro fertilization)

[carlimac]

I'm getting hung up on something. I just found out (despite having many Catholic friends) that the Catholic church forbids IVF. In talking with a couple of Catholic friends, the reasoning for this sounds weak and opinionated to me. Not doctrinal or "biblical". They suggest it weakens marital relations, masturbation necessary to obtain the sperm is forbidden, it destroys the sanctity of life and the way God intended for babies to be conceived, etc.

Is there anything in the scriptures or within the doctrine of the LDS church that would forbid IVF? I have some good friends who conceived triplets this way after many many years of infertility. These children were such a blessing. Later they conceived one more child on their own. There is no difference as far as I can tell in the amount of love they have for any of their children. All their children are treasured and valued. The couple's marriage is strong. He is in the bishopric, she's Primary president and they are without a doubt some of the most devoted and wise parents I've ever met.

In trying to explain my own views to my Catholic friends I get so much dismissal of all the good that comes from this medical technology. They call it "intrinsically evil". They say that as in rape, God can still intervene with something good (a baby) even though the act that brought it about is evil.

Edited February 28, 2012 by carlimac

[pam]

Okay putting on my moderator hat.

We can discuss what the LDS stance is on IVF. But let's please not bash what the Catholic belief might be. We've always asked our Catholic friends that frequent this site to be respectful of our beliefs..let's reciprocate in kind.

[slamjet]

Reminds me of my old ward. Some of the folks were telling my then-wife how IVF produces defective children and monsters. I dunno but my kids seem pretty normal, well, except they share my genetics. That's why we kept our IVF to ourselves. We didn't feel like dealing with others ignorance. Besides, we felt very strongly that this is what we needed to do. After two successful pregnancies, we felt strongly to not have anymore.

I truly feel that Medical Science is a miracle of the modern age. But like so may other things, such as internet, television or automobiles, it can be twisted to be used for nefarious purposes. It's the "opposition in all things" factor. That concept seems to be missing from the argument.

That aside, the only thing I found is in the Handbook 2:

21.4.3 Artificial Insemination

The Church strongly discourages artificial insemination using semen from anyone but the husband. However, this is a personal matter that ultimately must be left to the judgment of the husband and wife. Responsibility for the decision rests solely upon them.

Artificial insemination of single sisters is not approved. Single sisters who deliberately refuse to follow the counsel of Church leaders in this matter are subject to Church discipline.

As long as nothing is outside the bounds of marriage between man and wife, the church stays out of it.

[carlimac]

Okay putting on my moderator hat.

We can discuss what the LDS stance is on IVF. But let's please not bash what the Catholic belief might be. We've always asked our Catholic friends that frequent this site to be respectful of our beliefs..let's reciprocate in kind.

OK, took out my expletive. But I don't feel like I'm bashing, just comparing our policies and trying to understand what is behind theirs. Perhaps any former Catholic who frequents this forum could help?

[carlimac]

I've also come to find out that many Evangelicals are against it, too. There is that prickly issue of what to do with extra embryos. In a way, I'm a little surprised our church hasn't addressed this in more depth.

Also, I searched the church website and couldn't find anything on stem cell research. What do our leaders say about this?

Edited February 28, 2012 by carlimac

[annewandering]

What to do with the extra fertilized embryos is my biggest problem with the way they do it now. I didnt know the church had a stand on it at all. Interesting.

[Wingnut]

Official stance:

21.4.7

In Vitro Fertilization

The Church strongly discourages in vitro fertilization using semen from anyone but the husband or an egg from anyone but the wife. However, this is a personal matter that ultimately must be left to the judgment of the husband and wife. Responsibility for the decision rests solely upon them.

[Guest]

Carlimac, your Catholic friends did not give you correct information - either that, or you misunderstood what they were saying.

It is a very simple doctrinal matter for the Catholic Church against IVF. In Catholic theology, human life begins at conception. Remember, Catholics do not believe in eternal spirits. Therefore, in Catholic belief, the spiritual human being exists as soon as the sperm fertilizes the egg. Now, in IVF procedure - you usually have multiple eggs fertilized and allowed to grow in a petri dish until about 7 or so days old before the "most viable" of them are implanted into the mother. The rest are either donated to science or left to die. As you can see, in Catholic doctrine, this is an artificial death of a spiritual human being.

Of course, this is not the only thing that makes IVF sinful in the eyes of the Catholic Church. In Catholic teaching, sex and procreation are an "inseparable connection, willed by God, and cannot be broken by man on his own initiative" (Pope Paul VI). This is the reason Catholics are against artificial means of birth control - procreation is forcibly taken out of the sexual process. This is also a reason why they are against IVF - because, in IVF, sex is forcibly taken out of the procreation process.

Hope this helps.

[Guest]

I've also come to find out that many Evangelicals are against it, too. There is that prickly issue of what to do with extra embryos. In a way, I'm a little surprised our church hasn't addressed this in more depth.

Also, I searched the church website and couldn't find anything on stem cell research. What do our leaders say about this?

What to do with the extra fertilized embryos is my biggest problem with the way they do it now. I didnt know the church had a stand on it at all. Interesting.

The issue of "extra" fertilized embryos is not as critical in LDS theology as it is in Catholic theology because of the doctrine of pre-mortal life. In LDS theology, a fertilized egg doesn't necessarily contain a spirit transcending from pre-mortal to mortal life. A fertilized egg can just be a... regular bunch of cells. In Catholic theology - all fertilized eggs are spiritual human beings.

[Gwen]

I knew the church discouraged the use of sperm or eggs that do not belong to the couple and can understand that for the most part.

Something else I heard but don't know how accurate it is (of it it's changed) was that surrogacy is discouraged as well. That is one I have never understood. Paid surrogacy I'm not a fan of but I don't see the wrong in situations where say two sisters, one has good eggs but can't carry the pregnancy to term, use the husband and wife's sperm/eggs but implant in the sister for gestation.

I figure it's one of those issues that I don't know how much is doctrine and how much is policy. I am ok to let it be until it becomes my situation. At that time I will research and pray and seek my own answers on what is the right decision to make.

[Guest]

It's a very personal thing and it is very much between the couple and the Lord. It can be very hurtful to someone who has put in the work to make those hard decisions and who has done their best, when some well-meaning (or not) person gives their armchair opinion on the subject. It's one of those things you just can't truly understand unless you've had to go through it.

I avoid talking to Catholics about my family.

[Bini]

I noticed the church uses the word "discourages" but does not use the word "prohibits". So with that pointed out, one thing is certain, the issue is not black and white. There is an in between grey area here, as with most things, so what it boils down to is this: one should consult the Lord with a sincere and humble heart and it's no one else's business.

[clevermoniker]

This is nothing official, but this is how it the Church's stance on IVF was explained to me, and it made sense. Basically, if God wanted a couple to be able to have children on their own, he would have made them capable of doing that. God helps those who help themselves, so when there are certain medical conditions that make IVF necessary using the couples own sperm and egg, that seems fine too. But once you go beyond that, it just doesn't make any sense. You can't have kids of your own, and God will help you to come to terms with that. There are SO MANY children out there in the world who are just waiting to be adopted... little children who really need your help. You can still raise the child, still have an amazing impact on their life. Refusing to offer them this gift that you are fully capable of giving, just because you didn't get to carry them and give birth... seems a little selfish.

As it has been said, the church STRONGLY discourages, but leaves the decision up to the couple. There will be exceptions to this. But for the vast majority of cases, adoption is the option that should be chosen.

[Guest]

Basically, if God wanted a couple to be able to have children on their own, he would have made them capable of doing that.

This is one of the most infuriatingly insensitive things you can say to someone struggling with infertility. There's only one worse thing that someone said to me, and I don't even want to repeat that here.

God didn't "make" my body not work "right" because He didn't want me to have children. It's a lot for me to say that, because for years I hurt and cried because I thought that I had done something wrong, or that I was unworthy somehow to be a mother. Every month, every treatment that didn't work was just more evidence of how awful I must be. Finally, after a long time and a lot of talking with my husband and praying to Heavenly Father, I came to this:

Infertility happens because sometimes life sucks. This is a mortal world, and an imperfect body to live in it. I chose this, knowing that there would be challenges. My imperfect body is flawed in that area, not because He didn't want me to be able have biological children, but because for whatever reason I came that way.

In His mercy, He created a way for me to bring those children to the world. I know without a doubt that He wanted them here, as they came, to me and their father. We considered adoption, but felt led down another path.

If that awful statement you've just made held any truth, why do crack addicts have babies? Why do teenagers get pregnant in the back of their boyfriend's cars?

[Bini]

This is a sensitive topic.

I come from a family of 10 children (our ages range from 20's to 50's). Three of us were adopted. When I first married my husband, my mum kept telling me that if I didn't get pregnant right away, not to worry because we (DH and I) could always adopt. I wasn't fond of this idea at all but wasn't too concerned either because we had no reasons to believe that I couldn't get pregnant. Still, my husband had entertained the idea and asked me what my hang up on it was. For me personally, I wanted a child that was blood, our blood (his and mine). He and my parents thought that was such a silly statement, especially since, adopted children become your own. And who else would understand this more, than a child that was adopted (such as myself). Still, I wasn't thrilled with the idea, even though it was just a discussion on it and not an actual situation we were in. I was blessed to get pregnant with my daughter naturally BUT I understand why some people may feel adoption isn't for them if there's a good chance they feel they can conceive via fertility program. That said, I think it's too bad to completely rule out adoption if the fertility program fails. Absolutely, there are many children out there that need homes.

[Guest]

Oh Bini, don't misunderstand me. Adoption was definitely the next step. In fact we weren't going to go as far as in vitro, but to make a very long story short that's where we were guided, and that's what happened to work. Had that not been the case, we wouldn't have hesitated to start the adoption process.

[Bini]

Oh Bini, don't misunderstand me. Adoption was definitely the next step. In fact we weren't going to go as far as in vitro, but to make a very long story short that's where we were guided, and that's what happened to work. Had that not been the case, we wouldn't have hesitated to start the adoption process.

Oh I didn't misunderstand you! :]

I was just more or less talking out loud on the issue. This is such a sensitive topic for many people. I think if a husband and wife are able to have children of their own (naturally or with help via a fertility program) that's wonderful. I know that if I wasn't able to get pregnant right away, I'd opt to look into fertility treatments first before adoption. If that failed, then adoption would be considered next. Again, this is such a personal decision between couples (and the Lord), no one on the outside can judge. Like I said, this is not a black and white issue. There's A LOT in between.

[carlimac]

This is nothing official, but this is how it the Church's stance on IVF was explained to me, and it made sense. Basically, if God wanted a couple to be able to have children on their own, he would have made them capable of doing that.

As it has been said, the church STRONGLY discourages, but leaves the decision up to the couple. There will be exceptions to this. But for the vast majority of cases, adoption is the option that should be chosen.

Which "Church" are you talking about? Your statement about a couple only being able to have children if God wants them to sounds exactly like the Catholic beliefs.

If you read the LDS handbook, the STRONGLY discourages part only refers to a woman's eggs being fertilized by sperm from someone other than her husband. Or the husband using an egg from someone other than her wife to conceive. It doesn't say IVF itself is discouraged.

[pam]

As it has been said, the church STRONGLY discourages, but leaves the decision up to the couple. There will be exceptions to this. But for the vast majority of cases, adoption is the option that should be chosen.

Again from the handbook:

The Church strongly discourages in vitro fertilization using semen from anyone but the husband or an egg from anyone but the wife.

[annewandering]

I think any one who is willing to parent a child no matter how it was conceived is ok in my book. If God doesnt want it to be done then it wont happen. Period.

And for the record I would surrogate a baby for my sister, if I had one, in a sec. In cases where the mom or dad has no item to contribute to the baby then an outsider helping through iVF sounds great to me.

Babies are such a blessing it's wonderful to be able to have them no matter how scientifically it has to be done. Thank you, God, for making these ways possible!

[clevermoniker]

This is one of the most infuriatingly insensitive things you can say to someone struggling with infertility. There's only one worse thing that someone said to me, and I don't even want to repeat that here.

As one who is currently struggling with infertility, going on two years of trying/treatments/etc. I have to disagree with you. The fact of the matter is, if God really wanted us to procreate, he certainly has the power to make that happen. He is, after all, God. We get to pray for it, and want it, and try, and do all that we can, but in the end, "thy will be done". If you choose to take offense, it's all yours.

[slamjet]

This is nothing official, but this is how it the Church's stance on IVF was explained to me, and it made sense. Basically, if God wanted a couple to be able to have children on their own, he would have made them capable of doing that. God helps those who help themselves, so when there are certain medical conditions that make IVF necessary using the couples own sperm and egg, that seems fine too. But once you go beyond that, it just doesn't make any sense. You can't have kids of your own, and God will help you to come to terms with that. There are SO MANY children out there in the world who are just waiting to be adopted... little children who really need your help. You can still raise the child, still have an amazing impact on their life. Refusing to offer them this gift that you are fully capable of giving, just because you didn't get to carry them and give birth... seems a little selfish.

As it has been said, the church STRONGLY discourages, but leaves the decision up to the couple. There will be exceptions to this. But for the vast majority of cases, adoption is the option that should be chosen.

If the Lord wanted me to be healthy, he wouldn't have given me gene's to be able to easily gain weight.

I really need you to source where the church STRONGLY discourages IVF. And then I would love for you to recite this post verbatim to a mother who is not able to have children. If you sincerely do, well, I guess you would have integrity for sticking with your belief. But this is the exact thing that my ex and I had to deal with. We hated it then, we still hate it now. I'll stop here before I type something that will get me banned.

[clevermoniker]

If the Lord wanted me to be healthy, he wouldn't have given me gene's to be able to easily gain weight.

I really need you to source where the church STRONGLY discourages IVF. And then I would love for you to recite this post verbatim to a mother who is not able to have children. If you sincerely do, well, I guess you would have integrity for sticking with your belief. But this is the exact thing that my ex and I had to deal with. We hated it then, we still hate it now. I'll stop here before I type something that will get me banned.

The church STRONGLY discourages IVF when the mother and fathers sperm and egg cannot be used. Someone quoted it earlier in the thread, I'm sure you can find it.

And before you get too settled on your sanctimonious high horse, I *AM* dealing with this RIGHT NOW, at this very moment. If it were God's will, my wife and I would have a child already. If it is God's will, we will eventually be able to have a child. All that is left is for me to continue to do all that I can, and put my faith in Him.

Perhaps God gave you genes to easily gain weight in order for you to learn self control? We all have our struggles in life, and cannot always understand His plan for us.

[slamjet]

I'm sorry you're both going through this. It's not an easy thing to look at your wife and try to explain to her that she is still a wonderful and whole woman to you. I know all about holding a crying wife after church and being around all those folks who have children.

I would advise that blanket comments always invite misunderstandings.

[pam]

Okay everyone..walk away from the thread...walk away from the thread.

This is an extremely sensitive subject. Especially for those that have had to deal with infertility. Ultimately it's left to the decision of the couple involved. So let's try and be respectful of feelings on this because of the sensitivity.