Who are the Noble and Great Ones?

[daplautz]

I have heard some testify that all of us who are in the latter days are the Noble and Great Ones spoken of in Abraham 3:22-23. Yet others will say that although many of us are probably among the Noble and Great Ones, that title is still only applied to those who were foreordained as such. Even though the title is rather insignificant because it is between the individual and the Lord, what are your thoughts?

[pntkl]

The Noble and Great Ones are many, but not all in this time. They are the faithful servants of the Father; those that willing go where they are sent. When He speaks through them, His Word is felt, even by those that would make a mockery of all that is Holy. You may know them, not by their outward appearances, or their sweet words. Rather, by the Spirit, they are made manifest, if they so choose to make themselves known unto you. In their words, not all will accept them, for they speak for the Father, and those that love lies do not accept Him, His Son, or His Truth. They ultimately are purposed, to prepare way, for the Day of the Lord.

Love,

T.J. Wood

[HiJolly]

I have heard some testify that all of us who are in the latter days are the Noble and Great Ones spoken of in Abraham 3:22-23. Yet others will say that although many of us are probably among the Noble and Great Ones, that title is still only applied to those who were foreordained as such. Even though the title is rather insignificant because it is between the individual and the Lord, what are your thoughts?

I don't think it matters in the least. We are what and who we are.

HiJolly

[Blackmarch]

I have heard some testify that all of us who are in the latter days are the Noble and Great Ones spoken of in Abraham 3:22-23. Yet others will say that although many of us are probably among the Noble and Great Ones, that title is still only applied to those who were foreordained as such. Even though the title is rather insignificant because it is between the individual and the Lord, what are your thoughts?

As far as I care, its everyone who threw their lot in with the Lord when push came to shove.

Even those who reject their second estate (ie their obedience to God in this life and the life to come) and become sons of perdition will still be greater than than those who rebelled in the war in heaven.

[Guest]

The Boise State Broncos. :)

[volgadon]

Abraham being one of the noble and great ones kind of scotches the notion that it is entirely or even predominantly to do with these latter days.

[pntkl]

As far as I care, its everyone who threw their lot in with the Lord when push came to shove.

Even those who reject their second estate (ie their obedience to God in this life and the life to come) and become sons of perdition will still be greater than than those who rebelled in the war in heaven.

Galatians 3:1-29 

Our Great Potential - Ensign May 1977 - ensign

Jeremiah 11:1-23 

Doctrine and Covenants 131:1-3 

Doctrine and Covenants 40:1-3 

To some extent, this is correct. We all must understand, it isn't our past choices that hold us entitled to any position, before God. We may be sieved, rejecting our baptismal covenants, male or female. For men, the Priesthood covenants are even stricter. He decides, not us, what position that is. As unpleasant or harsh as it sounds; there is no nobility or greatness in wholeheartedly rejecting or holding levity against any of His commandments or any covenants He has with any of us. The gospels aren't only of grace [oh how great it is!], we are also held to our words and works, with Him. I am that I am, after Elohim, who is that was, is, and is to be.

Love,

T.J. Wood

“Try a little harder to be a little better.” - Gordon B. Hinckley

[pam]

The Boise State Broncos. :)

Okay that just blew our friendship.

[Guest]

Hahaha! Who are you for? Oregon? TCU?

[Timpman]

My wife.

[Timpman]

D&C 138:55 I observed that they were also among the noble and great ones who were chosen in the beginning to be rulers in the Church of God.

It doesn't seem that anyone who accepted Christ in the pre-mortal world would qualify. Not even all who were valiant enough to be born in the House of Israel qualify here. It's referring to "rulers in the Church of God".

[Timpman]

And I think this DOES matter. Despite what I wrote above, anyone here could be of of the noble and great ones. And it's good to ponder that.

So, sisters, what about us? What about you and me? Is it possible that we were among the noble and great?

I have to tell you, I believe it is more than possible. Knowing Who You Are--and Who You Have Always Been

[Martain]

I'm reminded of a few early members of the church who were called to positions of leadership in the Church. Though previously one of the "great ones" they nevertheless sinned, refused to repent and apostatized. Though called to do great things, they failed to do so.

I know that I've seriously desired to know more fully who I was. Since my actions in the past shape who I am today, who was I in the pre-existence? How has that made me who I am today? Was I a righteous soul who fought valiantly for the Lord during the war in heaven? Knowing that the Lord saved some of his most righteous children for this day, was I one of them?

Was I the man then that I'm desiring, seeking and striving to become now?

Why do I even ask these questions? Knowing as I do that I am a beloved child of God with the potential to become like he is, why do I desire to greatly to know?

I guess it's partly due to the desire to know where I fit in his plans. The desire to know what I was sent here to do and accomplish.

Yet if we all were such great ones then does that not make the current state of the world all that much more tragic? Does not the distance so many have fallen make it evoke that much more sorrow?

I don't have the answer to your question but I do know this. We can't rely on the righteousness in our past estate. Our past works are no guarantee of our future.

Greater men and woman then us have fallen and we must be vigilant that it doesn't happen to us as well. No matter who we were and what we've accomplished so far, we can still fall and loose it all.

Perhaps the question isn't whether you or I were "great ones" then but rather whether or not we will put forth the effort to become such here and now.

[shine7]

ok..........I will throw in another thought:

my oldest daughter has and still is striving to do things perfectly; when she was a child,

this had times of driving the family crazy......but when she got her patriarchal blessing, it

said she finished her first estate perfectly......the light went on for me as her mom at that

moment.....'oh, that's why she wants to be perfect and also wants everyone around her

to be perfect too'

[RMGuy]

I'll go with Usirwer for 1000 Alex.

-RM

[Seminarysnoozer]

ok..........I will throw in another thought:

my oldest daughter has and still is striving to do things perfectly; when she was a child,

this had times of driving the family crazy......but when she got her patriarchal blessing, it

said she finished her first estate perfectly......the light went on for me as her mom at that

moment.....'oh, that's why she wants to be perfect and also wants everyone around her

to be perfect too'

Who in this world did not finish their first estate perfectly? By definition, "keeping our first estate" is to have finished it perfectly.

[pntkl]

Who in this world did not finish their first estate perfectly? By definition, "keeping our first estate" is to have finished it perfectly.

The Plan of Salvation - Liahona Nov. 2006 - liahona

War in Heaven

When a Patriarchal blessing is given, it is for that individual. Interpretations of the meaning therein aren't fully discernible to those that were in attendance or privileged to know of it. When it comes to perfection of the first estate, we all had differing levels of spiritual maturity. It was so then, now, and will be in times to come.

Just because we weren't veiled, at that time, it doesn't mean we all attained perfection simply by accepting His plan. In fact, there was a third that would not fight, yet they still completed that estate, and can be found here. Which are perfect, those that fought or those that chose neutrality? Neither were, by necessity. Those that were in whole obedience, to our Father in heaven [for what He asked of each of us], they can be considered perfected, in their first estate. Just as we are allowed choices now, even then, we still had choice. So will we, beyond these times. With it, so goes the idea of perfection, by whatever capacity we have to understand it.

Who stands in authority, to know the answer to what the Patriarch was directed to say? By the same, who stands in authority to know perfection? Only a few.

Love,

T.J. Wood

[Vort]

Who in this world did not finish their first estate perfectly? By definition, "keeping our first estate" is to have finished it perfectly.

I don't think that's the definition.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I don't think that's the definition.

Please provide your correct definition then.

[HiJolly]

Please provide your correct definition then.

Ss, that's not how it should work. You are the one that made a claim about definitions. Please show a source or *some* sort of supporting evidence for your claim. Thanks.

I have to admit I've never heard such a thing, and am quite curious myself.

HiJolly

[Seminarysnoozer]

The Plan of Salvation - Liahona Nov. 2006 - liahona

War in Heaven

When a Patriarchal blessing is given, it is for that individual. Interpretations of the meaning therein aren't fully discernible to those that were in attendance or privileged to know of it. When it comes to perfection of the first estate, we all had differing levels of spiritual maturity. It was so then, now, and will be in times to come.

Just because we weren't veiled, at that time, it doesn't mean we all attained perfection simply by accepting His plan. In fact, there was a third that would not fight, yet they still completed that estate, and can be found here. Which are perfect, those that fought or those that chose neutrality? Neither were, by necessity. Those that were in whole obedience, to our Father in heaven [for what He asked of each of us], they can be considered perfected, in their first estate. Just as we are allowed choices now, even then, we still had choice. So will we, beyond these times. With it, so goes the idea of perfection, by whatever capacity we have to understand it.

Who stands in authority, to know the answer to what the Patriarch was directed to say? By the same, who stands in authority to know perfection? Only a few.

Love,

T.J. Wood

But we were all fully matured to that point. All of us that are here were fully obedient, just some of us not so valiant in that obedience. By saying that there are some that were "in whole obedient" you are implying a possibility of being disobedient (in part) and still passing the first estate test. I am not seeing that option.

So, if one insists that the different levels of valiancy that occurred in the first estate test is part of the final grade, the final judgement and not paid in full through the atonement or through the blessing that occurs with simply passing the first estate, then when will such a person have the opportunity to go back and take the first estate test again to pass it with a higher grade? When will they be able to go back to a time when there was no knowledge of good and evil to reveal their level of valiancy?

Either it is relevant to our final judgement or it is not. If all that is required is to "pass" the first estate test to receive the first estate blessings then the grade would reflect that which is pass or fail. If there is another system of reward given such as those given opportunity to do certain things in this life then how would that apply to the individual who dies before they are 8? The person made bishop in this life proves their higher level of valiant nature than the one who died before the age of 8? I don't think so. The pre-ordination based in how valiant a person was before this life is not a reward it is a calling and level of responsibility as where much is given much is required.

If two people meet the requirements for the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom and yet in looking in their past, one was more valiant in the pre-mortal world than the other in a slight degree, would the FULL inheritance they received by admission into that kingdom differ? Or does "full" and "all" look different from one to the other?

[Vort]

Please provide your correct definition then.

To me, "keeping one's estate" means successfully completing one's duties in that estate. I do not believe it implies perfection in doing so. We don't know exactly what was involved, but it certainly included seeking after God, accepting his plan by covenant, and rejecting the enticements of Satan. Doubtless it included repenting of various shortcomings, as well.

What suggests to you that "keeping one's first estate" implies perfection?

[HiJolly]

But we were all fully matured to that point.

Really? How so?

HiJolly

[james12]

Who in this world did not finish their first estate perfectly? By definition, "keeping our first estate" is to have finished it perfectly.

I do not give it as fact but I do give it as my opinion that we indeed progressed until we could progress no more in our first estate. We were as perfect, or complete, as we could be.

Why might this be so? Consider the following:

- Was our first estate a near infinite amount of time?

- If so, within that extremely long period of time, how far could one progress?

- At what point then would an individual complete his or her first estate?

- If there were more to learn in the current estate why would one progress to the next?

- What differentiates a person who has progressed from one estate to the next?

Edited May 1, 2012 by james12

[pntkl]

But we were all fully matured to that point.

...

So, if one insists that the different levels of valiancy that occurred in the first estate test is part of the final grade, the final judgement and not paid in full through the atonement or through the blessing that occurs with simply passing the first estate, then when will such a person have the opportunity to go back and take the first estate test again to pass it with a higher grade? When will they be able to go back to a time when there was no knowledge of good and evil to reveal their level of valiancy?

...

If there is another system of reward given such as those given opportunity to do certain things in this life then how would that apply to the individual who dies before they are 8? The person made bishop in this life proves their higher level of valiant nature than the one who died before the age of 8?

...

If two people meet the requirements for the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom and yet in looking in their past, one was more valiant in the pre-mortal world than the other in a slight degree, would the FULL inheritance they received by admission into that kingdom differ? Or does "full" and "all" look different from one to the other?

If we were all the same, monochromatic comparison would be a gradient of black and white. We all come from different walks of life, before our time here and even afterwards. This is a beautiful thing. Even when a child leaves, before the age of eight, or for some before they are accountable before our Father (such as those with certain disabilities), they are offered opportunities many were already part of. This path is sacred, even the prophets haven't been given the fullness thereof.

For a Bishop, there is a strict standard. A Bishop or any other leader that falls wayward can do more harm than any drug dealer or prostitute could ever do. For this standard, many are fearful of being called for leadership, even if the rewards are great.

Nothing is fully revealed to man, concerning paradisiacal glory. Had this occurred, the Law of Agency would be jeopardized. However, there is a certainty that I will share with you: the only thing that makes man equal is faith. Being faithful, know that what is promised to one is also to others. To think one lot in this Kingdom is better than another, that is a fallacy. Attainment of Celestial Glory is to be pure of heart, end of story, so to speak. However, one man's trash is another man's treasure.

One mindedness, concerning the gospel, doesn't necessarily mean that our wants and desires are also simply one; when it comes to heavenly things. Individual diversity is a strength therein. With it, new frontiers are forged. Even though contention is not allowed within, there isn't the requirement that everyone has to be an exact copy of the other. Neither does there need to be exact copies of accomplishment. What man can judge as He judges or for how He ultimately does so?

Those that place their position greater than another's, so will they be surely inverted, in heaven. A false imbalance is an abomination, before God; diver's weights and diver's measures, that is to say, differing weights and differing measures. Progression is sacred, to each their own. Our Father does not respect inequity. For Him, we all are His Children. Even when one is judged worthy of the highest glory and another is not; it doesn't change the baseline, they are loved the same. It doesn't even mean that the lower glory is so forever and ever, from this eternity to another. Heavenly things are hardly fathomable, before simple things have yet to be milked and drawn from the breasts.

Love,

T.J. Wood