Who are the Noble and Great Ones?

[Seminarysnoozer]

To me, "keeping one's estate" means successfully completing one's duties in that estate. I do not believe it implies perfection in doing so. We don't know exactly what was involved, but it certainly included seeking after God, accepting his plan by covenant, and rejecting the enticements of Satan. Doubtless it included repenting of various shortcomings, as well.

What suggests to you that "keeping one's first estate" implies perfection?

This is what happens with a thread. When I make a comment about someone else' comment then the original comment is lost and the focus is taken out of context. I was commenting on shine7's comment about her daughter's patriarchal blessing saying that she had "finished her first estate perfectly". So, the word "finished" got left out of our conversation. Now the word perfectly is taken out of context. I was not trying to imply "perfection" in the sense of being perfected or being perfect but rather finishing something completely or wholly which is an acceptable definition of the word "perfectly" in the English language. The point being, I would suggest that that is what the patriarchal blessing is referring to as well, that the individual has completed what was supposed to be done in the first estate. To say that it has been done imperfectly would imply that the person needs to go back to that estate to finish some undone work. Do you think there are some that need to go back to their first estate and take the test over again?

Even if it doesn't, our belief is that Christ is the finisher. Even when we don't complete this estate in a perfect (without mistake) manner, Jesus the Finisher makes it whole for us. It will be recorded, for those who repent and have faith in Him, as being finished perfectly. At least, that is what I have been taught to have faith in. I do not have faith in a "Savior" who does not save, who only guides so I can do it myself later. Doing it all by myself would sound like some other plan. Through a Savior, the price is paid in full and we can be perfected in Him.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Really? How so?

HiJolly

We could not go any further in our development without coming here at that point the next step was offered. Or do you think God offered the next step before we were ready?

[Seminarysnoozer]

If we were all the same, monochromatic comparison would be a gradient of black and white. We all come from different walks of life, before our time here and even afterwards. This is a beautiful thing.

...

One mindedness, concerning the gospel, doesn't necessarily mean that our wants and desires are also simply one; when it comes to heavenly things. Individual diversity is a strength therein. With it, new frontiers are forged. Even though contention is not allowed within, there isn't the requirement that everyone has to be an exact copy of the other. Neither does there need to be exact copies of accomplishment.

I never said we were the same. I am not sure where you got that from. Of course, I believe we all had different levels of being valiant. And just like the scripture in Alma, I believe that we have different "standings". But the gospel accommodates that to make it irrelevant in the end ... unless one doesn't want it to be.

If a police officer pulls a person over for a speeding ticket, he is not going to ask what you got on the written test for the driver's license. He is simply going to ask for your license. In that sense, we are all equal, we all passed the test. We don't need to go back to take the first estate test over again if we hold the certificate saying it was completed in whole.

I would suggest a warning about the love of individuality for diversity sake alone. There is a Kingdom described that way, the Telestial Kingdom as it differs from one star to another. If that is what is wanted and loved then that will be provided. There are many people in this world who go out of their way to prove their difference to others, their love for individuality is sometimes on display in the form of tattoos, or piercings of all kinds or revealing clothing, etc. Those people who believe in such a way would have a hard time giving of themselves as if their current state is who they really are, not realizing that this life is just a given temporary stewardship. The world teaches a love (desire of the heart-type of love) for individual uniqueness and a desire to hold on to the stewardship as if it is theirs. This is the parable of the unjust steward. It is not theirs. If that is what the person wants and loves in their heart then they will get that thing they want, a unique, isolated and individual set of gifts.

The opposing type of love (desire of the heart) would be that of being tied into each other completely, meaning the power of being sealed to all of our brothers and sisters who want to be part of such a system that would allow those individuals the ability to experience all the advancing glory of all accomplishments whether they be directly obtained by the person or someone else. If a person loves everyone else as themselves perfectly (which really isn't possible in this life even though we try), then the accomplishment of that person are experienced as if the person did it themselves. This is the parable of the prodigal son, when returning all the father has is his again, the inheritance is full again. In that light, the Celestial Kingdom is made up of individuals that share all, share all glory, all experience, all that came before and into the future, making their glory the only one with eternal joy and increase. To limit joy, to make it finite, is to look at oneself as unique and isolated. The Savior's power is to make whole where we could not do it for ourselves.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Seminarysnoozer

[Seminarysnoozer]

Really? How so?

HiJolly

From Gospel Principles, Chapter 2

God is not only our Ruler and Creator; He is also our Heavenly Father. All men and women are literally the sons and daughters of God. “Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335).

[pntkl]

I never said we were the same. I am not sure where you got that from. Of course, I believe we all had different levels of being valiant. And just like the scripture in Alma, I believe that we have different "standings". But the gospel accommodates that to make it irrelevant in the end ... unless one doesn't want it to be.

If a police officer pulls a person over for a speeding ticket, he is not going to ask what you got on the written test for the driver's license. He is simply going to ask for your license. In that sense, we are all equal, we all passed the test. We don't need to go back to take the first estate test over again if we hold the certificate saying it was completed in whole.

I would suggest a warning about the love of individuality for diversity sake alone. There is a Kingdom described that way, the Telestial Kingdom as it differs from one star to another. If that is what is wanted and loved then that will be provided. There are many people in this world who go out of their way to prove their difference to others, their love for individuality is sometimes on display in the form of tattoos, or piercings of all kinds or revealing clothing, etc. Those people who believe in such a way would have a hard time giving of themselves as if their current state is who they really are, not realizing that this life is just a given temporary stewardship. The world teaches a love (desire of the heart-type of love) for individual uniqueness and a desire to hold on to the stewardship as if it is theirs. This is the parable of the unjust steward. It is not theirs. If that is what the person wants and loves in their heart then they will get that thing they want, a unique, isolated and individual set of gifts.

The opposing type of love (desire of the heart) would be that of being tied into each other completely, meaning the power of being sealed to all of our brothers and sisters who want to be part of such a system that would allow those individuals the ability to experience all the advancing glory of all accomplishments whether they be directly obtained by the person or someone else. If a person loves everyone else as themselves perfectly (which really isn't possible in this life even though we try), then the accomplishment of that person are experienced as if the person did it themselves. This is the parable of the prodigal son, when returning all the father has is his again, the inheritance is full again. In that light, the Celestial Kingdom is made up of individuals that share all, share all glory, all experience, all that came before and into the future, making their glory the only one with eternal joy and increase. To limit joy, to make it finite, is to look at oneself as unique and isolated. The Savior's power is to make whole where we could not do it for ourselves.

The statement I made about two-toned chroma was concerning the first estate, about everyone being fully matured. I also believe we were all ready, before we made it here, just not the same, and it sounds we are in agreement in this regard, which isn't a necessity for me to love you [which I do], but a good thing nonetheless. Your analogy, about Police works well, concerning the first estate. Thankfully, the first estate is nothing like the drivers test I was given (.25mi and 5min) or His Law requiring re-evaluation, after N infractions, so to speak.

Individual diversity in heaven, from the Lowest to the Highest Glory, it is prevalent, it is a good thing, it is like salting added to a bland dish. What we bind to here is bound to there, but it's not like I'm saying we take our Lexus SC400 with diamond chrome rims with us; I am however saying we take our vanity, while the temporal is just as it sounds. That statement, concerning wants and desires was more so concerning our relationships with the Godhead, each other, and what we do with our treasures (not that they're all differently gifted, just differently utilized; sharing their utility is good, just not that others necessarily have entirely the exact same utility).

(Note: movie is rated R, however this speech is a good example of an unjust steward)

The unjust steward is a great parable. You are correct, that an unjust steward holds to their position unrighteously. The steward was wasteful with what was entrusted to him by his master. Not only do they hold to their vanity, they also are inequitable, in their measure. For those like themselves, these stewards are generous. For those they account as being different, they withhold what was entrusted to them to give equally. Unjust stewards have diver's weights and diver's measure, differing weights and differing measures, false balances. When they make a sale, they say it is of no profit to them, yet after each parts company, they boast about their gain. Unjust stewards are like a missionary that only knocks on the doors of members of His Church, yet neglects to visit their unbelieving neighbors, who they were told by the first door their neighbors look like gang members; drunken, rowdy, unkempt, and vain. Such a steward is actually filthier than a bad neighbor, even encouraging them more so--they provoke our Father to anger.

(PG-13)

Having never been to the Celestial Kingdom, neither looking upon it, man looks to revelation thereof. Yet, mostly I am emphasizing that everlasting joy is not found in places like Pleasantville. Yes, anyone that achieves this Glory is willing to share all they have. It just isn't plain, it is full of vibrancy, yet never wholly isolated. Even then, it isn't to say that we can't enjoy our solitude, in the Highest Glory or any other. Our Father's gifts are just as you said, infinite, without limit [outside of His Law].

Each of us has a fidiciary duty, to one another. I really appreciate yours, as your fidelity is great. Thank you, Seminarysnoozer; let's spread that around.

Love,

T.J. Wood

This land is your land This land is my land

From California to the New York island;

From the red wood forest to the Gulf Stream waters

This land was made for you and Me.

As I was walking that ribbon of highway,

I saw above me that endless skyway:

I saw below me that golden valley:

This land was made for you and me.

I've roamed and rambled and I followed my footsteps

To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts;

And all around me a voice was sounding:

This land was made for you and me.

When the sun came shining, and I was strolling,

And the wheat fields waving and the dust clouds rolling,

As the fog was lifting a voice was chanting:

This land was made for you and me.

As I went walking I saw a sign there

And on the sign it said "No Trespassing."

But on the other side it didn't say nothing,

That side was made for you and me.

In the shadow of the steeple I saw my people,

By the relief office I seen my people;

As they stood there hungry, I stood there asking

Is this land made for you and me?

Nobody living can ever stop me,

As I go walking that freedom highway;

Nobody living can ever make me turn back

This land was made for you and me. (by Woody Guthrie)

[Seminarysnoozer]

.

(PG-13)

Having never been to the Celestial Kingdom, neither looking upon it, man looks to revelation thereof. Yet, mostly I am emphasizing that everlasting joy is not found in places like Pleasantville. Yes, anyone that achieves this Glory is willing to share all they have. It just isn't plain, it is full of vibrancy, yet never wholly isolated. Even then, it isn't to say that we can't enjoy our solitude, in the Highest Glory or any other. Our Father's gifts are just as you said, infinite, without limit [outside of His Law].

Thanks for your response. I am not suggesting plainness. I am suggesting that 100% of something looks exactly like 100% no matter how the 100% was achieved. If person A has all the Father has and person B has all the Father has, what diversity exists between the two? What talent or like or dislike does one have that the other does not have? As soon as one says that one has something the other doesn't then by definition they do not have all or a fullness. Either we believe a fullness means fullness as in 100%, like the prodigal son or it means only a part, which really isn't a fullness to me.

The striving for diversity, in other words, is the striving for something less than 100%.

[Dravin]

If person A has all the Father has and person B has all the Father has, what diversity exists between the two? What talent or like or dislike does one have that the other does not have? As soon as one says that one has something the other doesn't then by definition they do not have all or a fullness.

Interesting, by that logic you will be sealed to Beefche as her husband.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Interesting, by that logic you will be sealed to Beefche as her husband.

Having something and being something can be two separate things. When my son gets an A in school, I can feel the joy of that grade even though I am not the one who earned it. This is a principle that is wrapped up in the commandment of loving thy neighbor as thy self. In the Kingdom in which that is done fully, what joy that comes from one person would not be felt or experienced by another?

The individual success and glory plan got voted out a long time ago.

[pntkl]

Thanks for your response. I am not suggesting plainness. I am suggesting that 100% of something looks exactly like 100% no matter how the 100% was achieved. If person A has all the Father has and person B has all the Father has, what diversity exists between the two? What talent or like or dislike does one have that the other does not have? As soon as one says that one has something the other doesn't then by definition they do not have all or a fullness. Either we believe a fullness means fullness as in 100%, like the prodigal son or it means only a part, which really isn't a fullness to me.

The striving for diversity, in other words, is the striving for something less than 100%.

Having something and being something can be two separate things. When my son gets an A in school, I can feel the joy of that grade even though I am not the one who earned it. This is a principle that is wrapped up in the commandment of loving thy neighbor as thy self. In the Kingdom in which that is done fully, what joy that comes from one person would not be felt or experienced by another?

The individual success and glory plan got voted out a long time ago.

Heavenly diversity is a certainty; without it, all become party to a non sequitur, so much as to imply a plurality of gods [even in plurality, always under the Supreme Being] a singularity, even to imply all Creation as a singleton rather than a set of. Even in the Celestial glories, lest one has attained the Highest Glory, all experience diversity, outside of covetousness and/or vanity.

Heavenly unity is also a certainty; found in our Salvation, through the Atonement, out of our faith, words, and works; righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. A sealed heritage, marriage, and parentage of each spirit is diverse, being brought eternal, rather than left temporal. The exceptional penalty being that few will never inherit any glory, nor inherit anything greater, wholly picked apart and cast out; these are the Sons of Perdition, those of whom are condemned one eternity to any other. [Note: whereas my usage of the term in plurality conveys that for which time is of no meaning, in any case after the moment of what was, is, or to be--a mystery of God.]

Notwithstanding spiritual death, if the Father so Wills it of any man, in this time or any eternity of His choosing: all may find their inheritance to His choosing. Some things are shared, others are sacred; to each their own, all in submission to the Father. How each arrives therein [with what merit is of no matter, simply the hope of every Host] each truly does receive 100% of His inheritance, in the Highest Glory, those which are exalted then and forevermore.

In closing, truly, each person's idea of heavenly unity, here, may yet be in accordance with one another's. However, we are speaking of heavenly things. To have the requisite wisdom and understanding thereof, that is to be perfected in Christ. Even if any of us were, now are, or will to be; the simple attainment thereof is the goal each strives to mark, by which the measure of is the Holy Ghost--no man's.

Love,

T.J. Wood

P.S.

I have added some additional Scripture below, which interpretations therein have been and can be numerous. These are some I find to be relevant, in this discussion. Feel free to offer your thoughts. If we aren't tearing each other down, I find there is no harm bearing testimony, edifying Christ, or reproving mistaken understanding of each other or one another's understanding of doctrine. Rather, to expand that last paragraph, it is doing so justly, that we may all come closer to the Father, His Son, the Holy Ghost, and all in submission thereunder. I have no plainer way to share what He has given me, so please accept my apologies if my posts are surreally drawn out.

Romans 14:1-23*

The kingdom of God embraces righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Ephesians 4:1-32*

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Doctrine and Covenants 130:1-23*

And that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy.

Doctrine and Covenants 132:19-24*

But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also.

Matthew 13:23*

But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Matthew 25:14-30*

And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Doctrine and Covenants 76:1-119*

Edited May 3, 2012 by pntkl
Removing color tags; not all worked.

[Seminarysnoozer]

However, one man's trash is another man's treasure.

One mindedness, concerning the gospel, doesn't necessarily mean that our wants and desires are also simply one; when it comes to heavenly things. Individual diversity is a strength therein. With it, new frontiers are forged. Even though contention is not allowed within, there isn't the requirement that everyone has to be an exact copy of the other. Neither does there need to be exact copies of accomplishment. What man can judge as He judges or for how He ultimately does so?

Those that place their position greater than another's, so will they be surely inverted, in heaven. A false imbalance is an abomination, before God; diver's weights and diver's measures, that is to say, differing weights and differing measures. Progression is sacred, to each their own. Our Father does not respect inequity. For Him, we all are His Children. Even when one is judged worthy of the highest glory and another is not; it doesn't change the baseline, they are loved the same. It doesn't even mean that the lower glory is so forever and ever, from this eternity to another. Heavenly things are hardly fathomable, before simple things have yet to be milked and drawn from the breasts.

Love,

T.J. Wood

Since you paint with such broad strokes I am not sure where you stand based on your most recent post. I think if you are using such broad statements such as "heavenly diversity is a certainty", how can I disagree with that? Of course, like I already agreed to, there is a Kingdom where such applies, for sure, as it is described one star differ from another. And I think the diversity and distance from God are likely linearly related. As we will not all be in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom after judgment day then, yes, there will be diversity in heaven. But that is not our aim at the moment, at least I would hope not.

If one wants to aim for the stars that is fine, that is part of the gospel, to bring about the immortality of man. If we want to talk in generalities about the work of bringing to pass the immortality of man and the eternal life, then, yes there has to be included the diversity that comes from those various levels of glory. If we want to talk about exaltation, then we can really have a discussion about where we are heading.

I think Jesus was very clear about where He set His sights for us, Matthew 5:48 " 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." And Luke 18:19 " 19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God."

"...none is good, save one, that is God." makes it a little hard to call diversity anything like "good".

And John 17:20-23 " 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."

This isn't a requirement, it is an ideal. I think we would all do well to have this same ideal that Christ had. I realize that not all will reach the target and in that way there will be diversity. But diversity is not the goal and it is not "good" for diversity sake alone. If that is in our hearts, which is unlike Jesus' prayer, then that person will probably end up having the diversity they so crave in the next life, which is described as one star differing from another. The Celestial glory is described as one, though. If you think "one" means something other than single, then please explain. I tend to think it means what Jesus described in John 14:7 " 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him." To me, that is a pretty good description of being one.

[pntkl]

Since you paint with such broad strokes I am not sure where you stand based on your most recent post. I think if you are using such broad statements such as "heavenly diversity is a certainty", how can I disagree with that? Of course, like I already agreed to, there is a Kingdom where such applies, for sure, as it is described one star differ from another. And I think the diversity and distance from God are likely linearly related. As we will not all be in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom after judgment day then, yes, there will be diversity in heaven. But that is not our aim at the moment, at least I would hope not.

If one wants to aim for the stars that is fine, that is part of the gospel, to bring about the immortality of man. If we want to talk in generalities about the work of bringing to pass the immortality of man and the eternal life, then, yes there has to be included the diversity that comes from those various levels of glory. If we want to talk about exaltation, then we can really have a discussion about where we are heading.

I think Jesus was very clear about where He set His sights for us, Matthew 5:48 " 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." And Luke 18:19 " 19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God."

"...none is good, save one, that is God." makes it a little hard to call diversity anything like "good".

And John 17:20-23 " 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."

This isn't a requirement, it is an ideal. I think we would all do well to have this same ideal that Christ had. I realize that not all will reach the target and in that way there will be diversity. But diversity is not the goal and it is not "good" for diversity sake alone. If that is in our hearts, which is unlike Jesus' prayer, then that person will probably end up having the diversity they so crave in the next life, which is described as one star differing from another. The Celestial glory is described as one, though. If you think "one" means something other than single, then please explain. I tend to think it means what Jesus described in John 14:7 " 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him." To me, that is a pretty good description of being one.

Man rides, but God holds the reins. One is wholly indivisible, requisitely so. The key performance indicator, concerning individual worth, it was never intended to be diversity. In fact, as you understand it [correctly], it is unity, which ultimately is Hope, Faith, and Charity; the greatest of which is Charity, a pure love. This form is not an ideal, it is real; for it is to know the Father and the Son. My paint is laid upon a narrow gate; it cannot rest upon the wide gate led by a broad road. The lacquer is mixed by the Son of an Artist; Ζωγράφου.

Adding to what is oft said concerning diversity, heaven would be dull if everyone were to be the same, in all facets of its geometry. Our very existence would be in vain, the fruits profane, if our sociality were bonded together, there would be no pleasure. Lucifer's plan for Salvation was fettered assignment, the singleness of being, in heart, soul, mind, and strength; the lake of fire. Eashoa's plan was unfettered attainment, by faith, with the singleness of our heart, soul, mind, and strength; rivers of living waters. If the Son were never to have laid Himself down and hung upon the cross; the fallen would have been lost forever. The Atonement is the Son's, and He didn't have to share it with anyone. The beauty in all of this is that it is given freely, with a choice to bear it also. Even in all Glory, there is Agency, from the least to the greatest, His Divine collage--exaltation doesn't suddenly halt this Agency and fetter any that dwell thereby, that which is diverse therein is good.

The most damning thing about man, as the Son appears in the Latter Days--what unwavering faith can be found? The Ambassadors of Peace decry their charge and so they weep bitterly. Their highways found barren, each man found mourning. The mighty are cut down; each man's fruits shaken and fallen; they lay in decay. The spirit of contention long ago piercing the skin. The loins girt about with a false covering. The feet shod with the symbols of foreign gods.

And yet, who's will is it, that these are condemned to one Glory or the other? Who should say, "No friend of mine would love my enemy. And who thereof should go where I go? Lord, Lord, I am the same, so take me, but leave him who is at odds with me." That kind diversity is of a different nature than that which I profess. The sieved are set apart, to stand before the Council. The freed are grafted to a tree; for the evil was left recompense, to God. The good are right after His Heart; as one whole, indivisible, to walk with the Father, their steps once in discord having progressed to be found in harmonious accord.

Love,

T.J. Wood

[Seminarysnoozer]

And yet, who's will is it, that these are condemned to one Glory or the other? Who should say, "No friend of mine would love my enemy. And who thereof should go where I go? Lord, Lord, I am the same, so take me, but leave him who is at odds with me." That kind diversity is of a different nature than that which I profess. The sieved are set apart, to stand before the Council. The freed are grafted to a tree; for the evil was left recompense, to God. The good are right after His Heart; as one whole, indivisible, to walk with the Father, their steps once in discord having progressed to be found in harmonious accord.

Thank you, well spoken.

Yes, I think this is the dilemma we face while here but may not be so once we see things clearly. I think the ideal can be maintained without passing judgment. This is similar to the "evil" some of my girlfriends express towards putting their kids in sports - "there has to be a looser if there is a winner". So, do I not, at least in front of them, encourage my daughter to win the game? Do I not celebrate when she has won the game? But here is the thing, what I am celebrating is the effort and what my girlfriends are hearing is the celebration for the win. We will be judged by the desires of our heart and God will take into account all the variables that would account for situational differences and diversities found here. In the end, the judgement of performance is comparable regardless of the diversity found here. God is judging effort within the proper setting of the variables.

In other words, the individual who received one talent if he would have doubled it would be no differently rewarded or judged from the individual who originally received 5 talents and doubled them. The diversity created by one individual receiving the one talent and the other the five in the beginning of the test was never intended to be a permanent diversification, it is temporary. Why would that specific diversification be continued onto the next world if the two received the same "grade" or judgement for their actions?

The diversification we find in this world is for the purpose of qualifying souls for the next world's assignments. If I take a test that says 'Jack is traveling down a train going 40 miles an hour and passes Jill going the opposite direction going 30 miles per hour, how far apart will they be in 2 hours?' That is not supposed to imply that I will actually encounter that situation in real life. It is a test. Does Moses now have a problem with speaking? Or does Paul still have a thorn in the flesh? Not if they are made whole and receive a fullness.

[HiJolly]

"The unity we seek is not necessarily that we all do exactly the same

things at the same time but that we each listen to and always follow

the direction of the same Holy Spirit."

-- Dieter Uchtdorf

[Dravin]

Having something and being something can be two separate things.

Fine, you will have a sealing to Beefche as husband. Be was not a state of being but an indicator of the future tense. I will have something you will not, a wife. Such will be a diversity between us.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Dravin

[Seminarysnoozer]

"The unity we seek is not necessarily that we all do exactly the same

things at the same time but that we each listen to and always follow

the direction of the same Holy Spirit."

-- Dieter Uchtdorf

Way to go. That is a wonderful quote when applied in it's proper context but it has nothing to do with what we were talking about. I am not sure what your intentions are with this quote.

President Uchtdorf here is talking about councils and committee meetings and their varied needs in different wards and stakes etc. This is a reference to meeting those varied needs that we find in this life. Since I was not talking about this life, this quote has nothing to do with what I was talking about. I have already explained my belief that this life is obviously varied, corrupted and diversified then of course there are various needs that have to be met. Hopefully, people don't get deceived by this quote taken out of context and think it applies to the next life or our goals for the next life.

On top of that, "doing things" and having the same desires and likes and dislikes are two different things. Even though Christ can be of the same nature as God, that doesn't mean they have to be doing the same things at the same time. And yet they can have the same likes and dislikes.

The sentences in the same paragraph and right before the quote given are: "Second, as a result of pondering and discussion, determine a few specific actions you will commit to implement. Please keep in mind that the actions of each organization, ward, stake, family, and individual may be different. They should fit your circumstances and needs."