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#1 NeuroTypical

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 07:42 AM

Dan Peterson (and presumably his associates Louis Midgley, George Mitton, Gregory Smith, and Robert White) have been given the boot from the Maxwell Institute.

Maxwell Institute News Page: A New Beginning for the Mormon Studies Review

Word on the street seems to indicate that the Maxwell institute wishes get out of the business of directly confronting arguments and criticisms directed at the church and its tenets.

Leaked internal memos show that Prof. Peterson strenuously disagrees with the move. And he is not going quietly.

Sic Et Non (Daniel Peterson's Blog): Of Gratitude, and Its Expression

My testimony came about by study, faith, prayer, and direct personal revealation. But much of the boldness I've cultivated in expressing it, came from Dan Peterson and FARMS. In fact, I gave myself my current screen name after I considered myself adequately schooled by Peterson and FARMS in apologetics.
If I were rich, I'd have the time that I lack, to sit in the synagogue and pray.
And maybe have a seat by the Eastern wall.
And I'd discuss the holy books with the learned men, several hours every day.
That would be the sweetest thing of all.

Ohhh....
If I were a rich man...

#2 Vort

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 08:16 AM

How sad. Changes must often be made, and perhaps this is for the best. But the amateurish way it is being handled is very regrettable.
As if anyone could knowingly commit sin without being changed both in spirit, body, and mind. Let me say this again, sin changes who we are! --james12
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#3 KirtlandSaintinZion

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 03:01 PM

To unceremoniously fire Dr. Daniel Peterson via e-mail is beyond the pale. And to think- Bradford didn't even give the other board members that courtesy. Apparently, Midgley is still unaware of these developments- being somewhere foreign with no internet access.

#4 Maureen

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 08:48 AM

This is being discussed to death at the Mormon dialogue and discussion board. I came across this article regarding the whole change occuring at MI that I found very interesting. I also found some of the comments thought provoking.

Did John Dehlin Bring Down the Mormon Studies Review: (Hint: the answer has two letters?)

M.
I'd rather be a could-be if I cannot be an are; because a could-be is a maybe who - is reaching for a star. I'd rather be a has-been than a might-have-been, by far; for a might have-been has never been, but a has was once an are. - Milton Berle

Sound, balanced teaching is a must. Our default should be to partake. Our default should be to live in joy, not condemnation. Our default should be to love, not to correct, to encourage, not to criticize. (Quote from prisonchaplain)

#5 annewandering

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 01:24 PM

What I dont get about this whole thing is why no one questions that someone, who is clearly an apostate and a liar, actually has support from any general authority at all. I do not believe it for a minute. Give us a name, dear sir. Or drop claims of support. How easy it is for liars and apostates to grab media attention and cause dissension. It would not surprise me to see an apostate church under his direction. He apparently has one already except for the legal technicalities.

#6 Maureen

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 02:12 PM

What I dont get about this whole thing is why no one questions that someone, who is clearly an apostate and a liar, actually has support from any general authority at all.
I do not believe it for a minute. Give us a name, dear sir. Or drop claims of support.
How easy it is for liars and apostates to grab media attention and cause dissension. It would not surprise me to see an apostate church under his direction. He apparently has one already except for the legal technicalities.


IMO, I don't see John Dehlin as an apostate or liar and I have checked out many of the interviews done at Mormon Stories. Dan Peterson was even interviewed, which I thought was great, since it's better to hear a person's thoughts from their own mouth, then speculate how they really see things. I enjoyed the Dan Peterson interview.

I'm just curious about Gerald Bradford at MI; what is his vision for MI and why's he's gone about changing things in such an awkward way. Why would people even suspect that John Dehlin's situation had anything to do with the firing of Mr. Peterson and others. I understand that a GA may have had some influence in the non-publishing of Greg Smith's piece but could Smith's article and MI's changes really be related? It's hard to know if all my questions will be answered, but I am curious to see the changes that will happen at MI.

M.
I'd rather be a could-be if I cannot be an are; because a could-be is a maybe who - is reaching for a star. I'd rather be a has-been than a might-have-been, by far; for a might have-been has never been, but a has was once an are. - Milton Berle

Sound, balanced teaching is a must. Our default should be to partake. Our default should be to live in joy, not condemnation. Our default should be to love, not to correct, to encourage, not to criticize. (Quote from prisonchaplain)

#7 annewandering

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 02:33 PM

I think it just may be that they dont want to be seen as confrontational. Some people do not hesitate to fight back but a lot of people do not feel comfortable with anyone doing that. They would rather just go about doing their jobs, believing in the church and not wanting to hear arguing. Personally, I find it very difficult to not fight back so I can understand that point of view best but I do see the other sides point. What I object to the strongest is the man claiming/implying he has GA support for his views. If that is completely true then I see someone being excommunicated.

#8 Vort

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 02:57 PM

IMO, I don't see John Dehlin as an apostate or liar and I have checked out many of the interviews done at Mormon Stories.


Until fairly recently, he represented himself as a faithful and believing Mormon in full fellowship, seeking to help other struggling Saints transition. This is demonstrably false.
As if anyone could knowingly commit sin without being changed both in spirit, body, and mind. Let me say this again, sin changes who we are! --james12
***********************
Nice hand, friend, but those are not the cards I dealt you.

***********************
Impenetrability! That's what I say!

#9 prisonchaplain

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 03:00 PM

I have found this discussion interesting and a bit confusing. This article helped me put it together: Mormon Chronicles: Mormon Stories vs Mormon Apologists

If I read it correctly, it is the apologists who believe that Dehlin has some influence with at least one General Authority. So, it might be true that some in leadership want to see a gentler approach taken towards those who say, "I believe, but help my unbelief." This article also suggests that the apologists did more than defend the faith--they "named and blamed" those they believed had gone astray, without leaving.

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." -- Lord Acton


#10 livy111us

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 04:06 PM

Since John Dehlin does not believe Joseph Smith is a Prophet, The Book of Mormon to be the word of God, questions the existence of God, and has led many people out of the Church, I think it's safe to say he is apostate.

#11 annewandering

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 04:09 PM

It seems that Devlin and his followers are what they say but just dont want any one to criticize them for it. From what I have seen of Peterson he is more inclined to attack the issue. I see no problem with that. I also think that people tend to not realize the extend that evil will go to do their work. They want to see the good in people and try to overlook the evil and believe me. Evil loves that. No one in their way. A man who 'helps' people out of faith is not doing good and needs to be called on it. A comment on Dan Peterson, himself. I have read many of his posts on Mormon Apologetics. Some I agree with and some I do not. Our politics are pretty much opposite poles. A while back I read and editorial he did on Deseret News. Dont remember what one or even the subject. What I do remember is that he wrote the most beautiful, spritiually moving, article. I was stunned to be honest. To believe that same man would be behind a cruel campaign of falsehoods to destroy a man just isnt believable. I do believe he would happily destroy the credibility of a lying apostate doing incredible damage.

Edited by annewandering, 04 July 2012 - 04:17 PM.


#12 prisonchaplain

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 06:39 PM

Anne, I have little stake in this, having read nothing from either Dehlin or Peterson. However, you say that Peterson writes beautifully inspirational spiritual encouragement, and therefore could not set out to destroy someone. Then in the next sentence, you say he would, if the target were an apostate. So, what if he misjudged someone to be apostate...could he not then set out to cruelly destroy the misperceived evil?

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." -- Lord Acton


#13 annewandering

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 10:59 PM

Anne, I have little stake in this, having read nothing from either Dehlin or Peterson. However, you say that Peterson writes beautifully inspirational spiritual encouragement, and therefore could not set out to destroy someone. Then in the next sentence, you say he would, if the target were an apostate. So, what if he misjudged someone to be apostate...could he not then set out to cruelly destroy the misperceived evil?


No I said he wrote one article that was very moving. And no I did not say he would destroy a person. I said he would destroy their credibility and I will add, on that subject or in an article they have poorly researched and written.
And of course this is just my opinion from reading a few things he has written. I do not know the man.

#14 NeuroTypical

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 05:31 AM

Gotta put on my moderator hat here and remind folks of a few things:

Site rule #1: Do not post, upload, or otherwise submit anything to the site that is derogatory towards The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, its teachers, or its leaders.

Basically, LDS.net is a place where folks can come to learn about what believing members of the LDS church believe and why we believe it. The folks who pay for this site consider it a place where someone can plug in to the LDS community and learn all about us. It is not a place to argue - Mormon Dialogue and Discussion Board is a fine place for that. It is not a place to criticize the truth claims of the church or push an agenda of social engineering away from our doctrine and core beliefs - you can find those places easily enough elsewhere.

We may engage in a bit of airing dirty laundry here, but do not post or upload anything derogatory. Links to apostate sites or overly controversial viewpoints or fringe beliefs - not ok. We do not provide a podium for people who want to change our system of belief or our leaders.

Some examples:
* I know of a lady who basically lies to keep her temple recommend so she can go to her daughter's eventual sealing. If you want to hear her story from the source, you will have to go somewhere else besides lds.net.

* There are lots of folks out there who figure the mormon culture is worth keeping in their lives even though they do not believe core doctrines. That's fine, I was one myself for a few years. But it becomes a problem when they go around actively preaching against core doctrines, lobbying for change in leadership or belief, etc.. You will have to go somewhere else to learn about the Foyer Mormons, New Order Mormons, Frizbee-flipping Mormons, or what have you.

* Dehlin and his Mormonstories are currently skirting the line. Watch what you post. We may or may not come up with a blanket decision on his links at some time in the future.

Edited by Loudmouth_Mormon, 05 July 2012 - 05:33 AM.

If I were rich, I'd have the time that I lack, to sit in the synagogue and pray.
And maybe have a seat by the Eastern wall.
And I'd discuss the holy books with the learned men, several hours every day.
That would be the sweetest thing of all.

Ohhh....
If I were a rich man...

#15 FunkyTown

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 07:25 AM

Gotta put on my moderator hat here and remind folks of a few things: Basically, LDS.net is a place where folks can come to learn about what believing members of the LDS church believe and why we believe it. The folks who pay for this site consider it a place where someone can plug in to the LDS community and learn all about us. It is not a place to argue - Mormon Dialogue and Discussion Board is a fine place for that. It is not a place to criticize the truth claims of the church or push an agenda of social engineering away from our doctrine and core beliefs - you can find those places easily enough elsewhere.

We may engage in a bit of airing dirty laundry here, but do not post or upload anything derogatory. Links to apostate sites or overly controversial viewpoints or fringe beliefs - not ok. We do not provide a podium for people who want to change our system of belief or our leaders.

Some examples:
* I know of a lady who basically lies to keep her temple recommend so she can go to her daughter's eventual sealing. If you want to hear her story from the source, you will have to go somewhere else besides lds.net.

* There are lots of folks out there who figure the mormon culture is worth keeping in their lives even though they do not believe core doctrines. That's fine, I was one myself for a few years. But it becomes a problem when they go around actively preaching against core doctrines, lobbying for change in leadership or belief, etc.. You will have to go somewhere else to learn about the Foyer Mormons, New Order Mormons, Frizbee-flipping Mormons, or what have you.

* Dehlin and his Mormonstories are currently skirting the line. Watch what you post. We may or may not come up with a blanket decision on his links at some time in the future.


I have been a regular-going church member for some time, LM, and I have to finally take a stand, even if I'm posting something derogatory about the church:

Carrots DO NOT belong in Jell-o.

I hope this doesn't give me a warning. :(

On topic: Meh - Some guy somewhere with a personal axe to grind about some socially unpopular move or other left the church. That's happened since Joseph Smith's time and will happen until the second coming and probably beyond.

People will make a big deal about it, but it really isn't. People are imperfect. They perceive things and want the world to adapt to them.

I. Am. A. Socialist. :)


#16 applepansy

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 07:59 AM

I have been a regular-going church member for some time, LM, and I have to finally take a stand, even if I'm posting something derogatory about the church:

Carrots DO NOT belong in Jell-o.

I hope this doesn't give me a warning. :(

On topic: Meh - Some guy somewhere with a personal axe to grind about some socially unpopular move or other left the church. That's happened since Joseph Smith's time and will happen until the second coming and probably beyond.

People will make a big deal about it, but it really isn't. People are imperfect. They perceive things and want the world to adapt to them.


I wholeheartedly support you position on this. :eek:

#17 NeuroTypical

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 08:31 AM

Actually, in the School of the Prophets, Joseph taught only adherence to mandarin oranges was necessary. Carrot strips didn't even show up until we were in Utah, and the saint's usual crops failed two years in a row forcing alternate jello additive.
If I were rich, I'd have the time that I lack, to sit in the synagogue and pray.
And maybe have a seat by the Eastern wall.
And I'd discuss the holy books with the learned men, several hours every day.
That would be the sweetest thing of all.

Ohhh....
If I were a rich man...

#18 annewandering

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 08:37 AM

I like carrots in jello. and.............a small dollop of salad dressing on top. It SHOULD however be lemon jello.

#19 prisonchaplain

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 10:00 AM

I've always thought that English cuisine was the bottom of human culinary invention...y'all have me reconsidering:

http://ts4.mm.bing.n...&h=153&c=7&rs=1 VS. http://ts1.mm.bing.n...&h=154&c=7&rs=1

Edited by prisonchaplain, 05 July 2012 - 10:02 AM.

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." -- Lord Acton


#20 Just_A_Guy

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 10:09 AM

Until fairly recently, he represented himself as a faithful and believing Mormon in full fellowship, seeking to help other struggling Saints transition. This is demonstrably false.


I may be over-simplifying, but wasn't the blog "Wheat and Tares" formed by a bunch of ex-permas from Dehlin's "Mormon Matters" who got fed up with what they saw as Dehlin's open hostility to the Church and wanted to create a blog that remained at least nominally LDS?

(Not that "Wheat and Tares" is a bastion of spiritual edification, either . . .)

About half the practice of a decent lawyer consists in telling would-be clients that they are darned fools and should stop.
 

--Senator Elihu Root





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