Big news in LDS apologetic circles

[NeuroTypical]

Dan Peterson (and presumably his associates Louis Midgley, George Mitton, Gregory Smith, and Robert White) have been given the boot from the Maxwell Institute.

Maxwell Institute News Page: A New Beginning for the Mormon Studies Review

Word on the street seems to indicate that the Maxwell institute wishes get out of the business of directly confronting arguments and criticisms directed at the church and its tenets.

Leaked internal memos show that Prof. Peterson strenuously disagrees with the move. And he is not going quietly.

Sic Et Non (Daniel Peterson's Blog): Of Gratitude, and Its Expression

My testimony came about by study, faith, prayer, and direct personal revealation. But much of the boldness I've cultivated in expressing it, came from Dan Peterson and FARMS. In fact, I gave myself my current screen name after I considered myself adequately schooled by Peterson and FARMS in apologetics.

[Vort]

How sad. Changes must often be made, and perhaps this is for the best. But the amateurish way it is being handled is very regrettable.

[KirtlandSaintinZion]

To unceremoniously fire Dr. Daniel Peterson via e-mail is beyond the pale. And to think- Bradford didn't even give the other board members that courtesy. Apparently, Midgley is still unaware of these developments- being somewhere foreign with no internet access.

[Maureen]

This is being discussed to death at the Mormon dialogue and discussion board. I came across this article regarding the whole change occuring at MI that I found very interesting. I also found some of the comments thought provoking.

Did John Dehlin Bring Down the Mormon Studies Review: (Hint: the answer has two letters?)

M.

[annewandering]

What I dont get about this whole thing is why no one questions that someone, who is clearly an apostate and a liar, actually has support from any general authority at all.

I do not believe it for a minute. Give us a name, dear sir. Or drop claims of support.

How easy it is for liars and apostates to grab media attention and cause dissension. It would not surprise me to see an apostate church under his direction. He apparently has one already except for the legal technicalities.

[Maureen]

What I dont get about this whole thing is why no one questions that someone, who is clearly an apostate and a liar, actually has support from any general authority at all.

I do not believe it for a minute. Give us a name, dear sir. Or drop claims of support.

How easy it is for liars and apostates to grab media attention and cause dissension. It would not surprise me to see an apostate church under his direction. He apparently has one already except for the legal technicalities.

IMO, I don't see John Dehlin as an apostate or liar and I have checked out many of the interviews done at Mormon Stories. Dan Peterson was even interviewed, which I thought was great, since it's better to hear a person's thoughts from their own mouth, then speculate how they really see things. I enjoyed the Dan Peterson interview.

I'm just curious about Gerald Bradford at MI; what is his vision for MI and why's he's gone about changing things in such an awkward way. Why would people even suspect that John Dehlin's situation had anything to do with the firing of Mr. Peterson and others. I understand that a GA may have had some influence in the non-publishing of Greg Smith's piece but could Smith's article and MI's changes really be related? It's hard to know if all my questions will be answered, but I am curious to see the changes that will happen at MI.

M.

[annewandering]

I think it just may be that they dont want to be seen as confrontational. Some people do not hesitate to fight back but a lot of people do not feel comfortable with anyone doing that. They would rather just go about doing their jobs, believing in the church and not wanting to hear arguing.

Personally, I find it very difficult to not fight back so I can understand that point of view best but I do see the other sides point.

What I object to the strongest is the man claiming/implying he has GA support for his views. If that is completely true then I see someone being excommunicated.

[Vort]

IMO, I don't see John Dehlin as an apostate or liar and I have checked out many of the interviews done at Mormon Stories.

Until fairly recently, he represented himself as a faithful and believing Mormon in full fellowship, seeking to help other struggling Saints transition. This is demonstrably false.

[prisonchaplain]

I have found this discussion interesting and a bit confusing. This article helped me put it together: Mormon Chronicles: Mormon Stories vs Mormon Apologists

If I read it correctly, it is the apologists who believe that Dehlin has some influence with at least one General Authority. So, it might be true that some in leadership want to see a gentler approach taken towards those who say, "I believe, but help my unbelief." This article also suggests that the apologists did more than defend the faith--they "named and blamed" those they believed had gone astray, without leaving.

[Maureen]

Until fairly recently, he represented himself as a faithful and believing Mormon in full fellowship, seeking to help other struggling Saints transition. This is demonstrably false.

Well not too recently, from what I've read he's been struggling for years trying to figure out where he fits in the Mormon world. I found this post from him at NOM:

by mormonstories » Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:48 am

John Dehlin here. And yes...I've mentioned in a few places now that I'm no longer active in the church. It brings me no joy to admit this, but it's true.

Nothing caused this other than a gradual feeling that full church activity wasn't really worth the time/effort any more (cost/benefit analysis), and feeling really uncomfortable from an integrity/honesty perspective about "looking" like active, believing members when we didn't feel that way inside (I know...I know...many of you warned me that this would happen, and saw this coming long before I did).

Anyway, we just got worn down over time, I think.

For me, the "LDS Restoration" (as in God restoring the "one true church with exclusive priesthood authority") is just not a credible narrative....and my wife and I can no longer pretend like (or appear like) we think it is. I don't even think we WANT it to be "true" at this point -- we're much more universalistic in our beliefs.

Part of us would enjoy being active...and I still generally enjoy going to sacrament meeting...but the cog-diss has become too great for us.

If the church were to send out some type of communication indicating that NOMs were fully legitimate/welcome in church (as vocal participants), and that they could have temple recommends (I know...crazy), I would consider re-activating...but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

Anyway....I would love to have been able to make it work...and I still fully support those for whom full church activity does work. We just can't make it work for us. At least not as thing are.

New Order Mormon • View topic - Conversation on FB with a friend, because oh John Dehlin

M.

[livy111us]

Since John Dehlin does not believe Joseph Smith is a Prophet, The Book of Mormon to be the word of God, questions the existence of God, and has led many people out of the Church, I think it's safe to say he is apostate.

[annewandering]

It seems that Devlin and his followers are what they say but just dont want any one to criticize them for it. From what I have seen of Peterson he is more inclined to attack the issue. I see no problem with that.

I also think that people tend to not realize the extend that evil will go to do their work. They want to see the good in people and try to overlook the evil and believe me. Evil loves that. No one in their way.

A man who 'helps' people out of faith is not doing good and needs to be called on it.

A comment on Dan Peterson, himself. I have read many of his posts on Mormon Apologetics. Some I agree with and some I do not. Our politics are pretty much opposite poles. A while back I read and editorial he did on Deseret News. Dont remember what one or even the subject. What I do remember is that he wrote the most beautiful, spritiually moving, article. I was stunned to be honest. To believe that same man would be behind a cruel campaign of falsehoods to destroy a man just isnt believable. I do believe he would happily destroy the credibility of a lying apostate doing incredible damage.

Edited July 4, 2012 by annewandering

[prisonchaplain]

Anne, I have little stake in this, having read nothing from either Dehlin or Peterson. However, you say that Peterson writes beautifully inspirational spiritual encouragement, and therefore could not set out to destroy someone. Then in the next sentence, you say he would, if the target were an apostate. So, what if he misjudged someone to be apostate...could he not then set out to cruelly destroy the misperceived evil?

[Maureen]

Anne, I disagree so much with your view of John Dehlin and those at Mormon Stories. Mormon Stories has a Shared Values Statement, which I choose to believe is sincere.

Mormon Stories Shared Values Statement

1. We acknowledge the richness of Mormon heritage, teachings, and community in all of its diversity.

2. We believe that one can self-identify as Mormon based on one’s genealogy, upbringing, beliefs, relationships, and other life experiences, regardless of one’s adherence or non-adherence to the teachings or doctrines of any religious organization.

3. We seek spaces where we as Mormons can live lives of intellectual and spiritual integrity, individual conscience, and personal dignity.

4. We acknowledge and honor different spiritual paths and modes of religious or non-religious truth-seeking. We respect the convictions of those who subscribe to ideas and beliefs that differ from our own.

5. We recognize the confusion, distress, emotional trauma, and social ostracism that people on faith journeys often experience. We seek constructive ways of helping and supporting people, regardless of their ultimate decisions regarding church affiliation or activity.

6. We affirm the inherent and equal worth of all human beings. We seek spaces where Mormons (and all people) can interact as equals regardless of race, gender, or sexual orientation. In this spirit of egalitarianism, we prefer non-authoritarian and non-hierarchical means of organization and affiliation.

M.

[annewandering]

Anne, I have little stake in this, having read nothing from either Dehlin or Peterson. However, you say that Peterson writes beautifully inspirational spiritual encouragement, and therefore could not set out to destroy someone. Then in the next sentence, you say he would, if the target were an apostate. So, what if he misjudged someone to be apostate...could he not then set out to cruelly destroy the misperceived evil?

No I said he wrote one article that was very moving. And no I did not say he would destroy a person. I said he would destroy their credibility and I will add, on that subject or in an article they have poorly researched and written.

And of course this is just my opinion from reading a few things he has written. I do not know the man.

[annewandering]

Anne, I disagree so much with your view of John Dehlin and those at Mormon Stories. Mormon Stories has a Shared Values Statement, which I choose to believe is sincere.

Mormon Stories Shared Values Statement

1. We acknowledge the richness of Mormon heritage, teachings, and community in all of its diversity.

2. We believe that one can self-identify as Mormon based on one’s genealogy, upbringing, beliefs, relationships, and other life experiences, regardless of one’s adherence or non-adherence to the teachings or doctrines of any religious organization.

3. We seek spaces where we as Mormons can live lives of intellectual and spiritual integrity, individual conscience, and personal dignity.

4. We acknowledge and honor different spiritual paths and modes of religious or non-religious truth-seeking. We respect the convictions of those who subscribe to ideas and beliefs that differ from our own.

5. We recognize the confusion, distress, emotional trauma, and social ostracism that people on faith journeys often experience. We seek constructive ways of helping and supporting people, regardless of their ultimate decisions regarding church affiliation or activity.

6. We affirm the inherent and equal worth of all human beings. We seek spaces where Mormons (and all people) can interact as equals regardless of race, gender, or sexual orientation. In this spirit of egalitarianism, we prefer non-authoritarian and non-hierarchical means of organization and affiliation.

M.

Being sincere does not make someone correct, moral or even a good person. This is an apostate by every definition and for him to imply or outright say he follows, and encourages, principles in direct contradiction to church teachings, is rather disingenuous dont you think?

[NeuroTypical]

Gotta put on my moderator hat here and remind folks of a few things:

Site rule #1: Do not post, upload, or otherwise submit anything to the site that is derogatory towards The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, its teachers, or its leaders.

Basically, LDS.net is a place where folks can come to learn about what believing members of the LDS church believe and why we believe it. The folks who pay for this site consider it a place where someone can plug in to the LDS community and learn all about us. It is not a place to argue - Mormon Dialogue and Discussion Board is a fine place for that. It is not a place to criticize the truth claims of the church or push an agenda of social engineering away from our doctrine and core beliefs - you can find those places easily enough elsewhere.

We may engage in a bit of airing dirty laundry here, but do not post or upload anything derogatory. Links to apostate sites or overly controversial viewpoints or fringe beliefs - not ok. We do not provide a podium for people who want to change our system of belief or our leaders.

Some examples:

* I know of a lady who basically lies to keep her temple recommend so she can go to her daughter's eventual sealing. If you want to hear her story from the source, you will have to go somewhere else besides lds.net.

* There are lots of folks out there who figure the mormon culture is worth keeping in their lives even though they do not believe core doctrines. That's fine, I was one myself for a few years. But it becomes a problem when they go around actively preaching against core doctrines, lobbying for change in leadership or belief, etc.. You will have to go somewhere else to learn about the Foyer Mormons, New Order Mormons, Frizbee-flipping Mormons, or what have you.

* Dehlin and his Mormonstories are currently skirting the line. Watch what you post. We may or may not come up with a blanket decision on his links at some time in the future.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[FunkyTown]

Gotta put on my moderator hat here and remind folks of a few things: Basically, LDS.net is a place where folks can come to learn about what believing members of the LDS church believe and why we believe it. The folks who pay for this site consider it a place where someone can plug in to the LDS community and learn all about us. It is not a place to argue - Mormon Dialogue and Discussion Board is a fine place for that. It is not a place to criticize the truth claims of the church or push an agenda of social engineering away from our doctrine and core beliefs - you can find those places easily enough elsewhere.

We may engage in a bit of airing dirty laundry here, but do not post or upload anything derogatory. Links to apostate sites or overly controversial viewpoints or fringe beliefs - not ok. We do not provide a podium for people who want to change our system of belief or our leaders.

Some examples:

* I know of a lady who basically lies to keep her temple recommend so she can go to her daughter's eventual sealing. If you want to hear her story from the source, you will have to go somewhere else besides lds.net.

* There are lots of folks out there who figure the mormon culture is worth keeping in their lives even though they do not believe core doctrines. That's fine, I was one myself for a few years. But it becomes a problem when they go around actively preaching against core doctrines, lobbying for change in leadership or belief, etc.. You will have to go somewhere else to learn about the Foyer Mormons, New Order Mormons, Frizbee-flipping Mormons, or what have you.

* Dehlin and his Mormonstories are currently skirting the line. Watch what you post. We may or may not come up with a blanket decision on his links at some time in the future.

I have been a regular-going church member for some time, LM, and I have to finally take a stand, even if I'm posting something derogatory about the church:

Carrots DO NOT belong in Jell-o.

I hope this doesn't give me a warning.

On topic: Meh - Some guy somewhere with a personal axe to grind about some socially unpopular move or other left the church. That's happened since Joseph Smith's time and will happen until the second coming and probably beyond.

People will make a big deal about it, but it really isn't. People are imperfect. They perceive things and want the world to adapt to them.

[applepansy]

I have been a regular-going church member for some time, LM, and I have to finally take a stand, even if I'm posting something derogatory about the church:

Carrots DO NOT belong in Jell-o.

I hope this doesn't give me a warning.

On topic: Meh - Some guy somewhere with a personal axe to grind about some socially unpopular move or other left the church. That's happened since Joseph Smith's time and will happen until the second coming and probably beyond.

People will make a big deal about it, but it really isn't. People are imperfect. They perceive things and want the world to adapt to them.

I wholeheartedly support you position on this.

[NeuroTypical]

Actually, in the School of the Prophets, Joseph taught only adherence to mandarin oranges was necessary. Carrot strips didn't even show up until we were in Utah, and the saint's usual crops failed two years in a row forcing alternate jello additive.

[annewandering]

I like carrots in jello. and.............a small dollop of salad dressing on top. It SHOULD however be lemon jello.

[prisonchaplain]

I've always thought that English cuisine was the bottom of human culinary invention...y'all have me reconsidering:

http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=I4737830573573255&pid=1.7&w=211&h=153&c=7&rs=1 VS. http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=I5022397919593184&pid=1.7&w=224&h=154&c=7&rs=1

Edited July 5, 2012 by prisonchaplain

[Just_A_Guy]

Until fairly recently, he represented himself as a faithful and believing Mormon in full fellowship, seeking to help other struggling Saints transition. This is demonstrably false.

I may be over-simplifying, but wasn't the blog "Wheat and Tares" formed by a bunch of ex-permas from Dehlin's "Mormon Matters" who got fed up with what they saw as Dehlin's open hostility to the Church and wanted to create a blog that remained at least nominally LDS?

(Not that "Wheat and Tares" is a bastion of spiritual edification, either . . .)

[HiJolly]

I know Dan Peterson personally, though I'm not a close friend. I've spoken with him many times and he's helped me with some of my research into Jewish and Muslim mystical beliefs. I *really* like him. And I have a LOT of respect for him and his work.

At the same time, I've been following John Dehlin's Mormon Stories since at least 2006 and really LOVE his interviews. I don't really like it when he plays 'devils advocate', since more than once I got the distinct impression that it wasn't play-acting, but that he really couldn't believe the faithful side of one question or another.

But I must say that I understand the population that he is helping is really and truly in need of some help, even if it be only perspective. And John does provide that, and from several angles. True, some people use his work to justify leaving the Church. But I think that most people in that boat were already headed that way.

And there are many people that have been able to take the edge off of their shock and/or revulsion at 'uncorrelated' (yet true) history because of John.

The fact is that we all have different weaknesses and levels of testimony, and something that may help one person spiritually may hurt another. John had the choice of trying to help (himself included) or to just try to not care, and leave it alone. He chose to try and help people. I think that was an honorable choice for him to make.

Sadly, as time has progressed his faith has continued to change to something most LDS folks cannot understand nor identify with. So he is now less of a 'help' and more of an 'irritant' for most LDS, and I am sad about that.

I still think that he is a good hearted man.

"... it is better to point some in the right direction at the risk of deluding others,

than settling for helping no one at all."

-- Alan Chapman

"He who has never doubted, has never thought."

-- Hugh B. Brown

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Since John Dehlin does not believe Joseph Smith is a Prophet, The Book of Mormon to be the word of God, questions the existence of God, and has led many people out of the Church, I think it's safe to say he is apostate.

How should Latter-day Saints treat apostates?

HiJolly