Does Santa diminish Christ from Christmas?

[Vort]

Have family that didn't do Santa and the kids really resented the parents later for not doing it. Really took away from the magic of Christmas and the thrill of being a little kid. There are ways to do it and still keep the holiday Christ centered. Christmas eve for my family is all about Christ and his birth. I know people (beyond family) who really resented their parents for not doing Santa, but I don't any people who resented their parents for doing Santa. I don't know anyone who thought their parents were dishonest for doing Santa either. Its all about how you handle Christmas. Just bring some balance in and find time to do both. Christmas eve for Christ. Christmas day for Santa.

You've been a member for three years, and have just now made your first posts?

Welcome, old timer!

[Just_A_Guy]

We don't do "obeisance" to Santa, no more so than Catholics do "obeisance" to the Catholic Saints and the Blessed Mary.

I realize that that's not how theologians choose to define it, or how careful Catholics perceive it. At the same time I've talked to a lot of Catholics who don't bat an eye about "praying to Mary" or making a promise to a saint and viewing that saint as the direct source of whatever blessing they receive.

Do kids understand the nuances of all this? We can look condescendingly on them and say its all "kid stuff" - but to them it's very, very real. On a gut level we, as adults, know this - which is why my wife has threatened me with death if I openly deny the existence of Santa to our kids at this point in time.

The cookies, the best behavior and food offerings... that's just kid stuff. No different than the kids being on their best behavior and bringing apples to their favorite Math teacher.

Well, maybe, but the math teacher is a real person to whom we are expressing genuine affection and gratitude.

And if its OK to do all this stuff for someone we call Santa, why not do it for another imaginary figure named - say - Zeus?

My kids thought the tooth fairy was real too.

Now that you mention it . . .

"Remember when you thought there was a monster in your closet? How about when you thought Santa was still alive?... And remember when you believed Dad when he said you'll get appendicitis if you don't sit down for meals?"... yeah, I was 21 years old when I learned that the appendicitis thing was made up by my dad so that we will have to stay at the dinner table for my dad's "lecture" after meals. I miss those days. The fun days of youth.

Agreed.

And yet, when a child comes to you over an issue of faith, I think there is a unique power in bring able to say "son, not only do I know that there is a God, but you can look back on your own life and know that I never have, and never would, lie to you about something like that".

[MarginOfError]

My views on Santa change from year to year. I've been incredibly inconsistent from year to year. So here's what I have to say about it this year, but don't complain if I say something entirely different when we start this conversation again next year.

1) Santa appeals to the creative and imaginary side of children. That process should be encouraged. Whether or not you want to encourage it with Santa is your own choice. But do keep in mind that it is something that is created and imagined across a large community. There are some social benefits to participation.

2) Children are smart. You don't hear very many of them complain about being duped when they found out Santa wasn't real. In fact, most people reinstate the tradition because...drumroll...they had so much fun with it.

3) Again, children are smart. But their ability to process abstract thought is pretty limited. To them, the birth of Jesus is every bit as imaginary as Santa Claus. They don't really conceptualize it. It's a play thing. That is both fine and cognitively appropriate for their age. As they grow older and feel the spirit, they'll learn to distinguish between reality and imaginary. They'll also be able to draw on their memories of Santa to make important insights about Christmas.

In our house this year, we discussed doing Elf on a Shelf. But that thing creeps me out. Instead, we kind of hijacked a more traditional practice of having a nativity where Mary and Joseph travel throughout the house on their way to Bethlehem. By tradition, each day, Mary and Joseph move closer to the stable until they arrive on Christmas Eve. In our version, we hide Mary and Joseph somewhere in the house and our daughter gets to go look for them.

At the same time, our daughter was beside herself with excitement to get the Christmas decorations out so that she could get the Santa Claus doll. It's something special for the holiday, and in the same vein as Dravin's remark--I'd rather she were throwing the Santa Doll around than the Jesus doll.

[Guest]

I realize that that's not how theologians choose to define it, or how careful Catholics perceive it. At the same time I've talked to a lot of Catholics who don't bat an eye about "praying to Mary" or making a promise to a saint and viewing that saint as the direct source of whatever blessing they receive.

Unfortunately, you are very correct about that. It's no wonder that religion is dying a slow death.

Do kids understand the nuances of all this? We can look condescendingly on them and say its all "kid stuff" - but to them it's very, very real. On a gut level we, as adults, know this - which is why my wife has threatened me with death if I openly deny the existence of Santa to our kids at this point in time.

They don't need to. Line upon line, precept upon precept. They'll learn it as they grow.

Well, maybe, but the math teacher is a real person to whom we are expressing genuine affection and gratitude.

And if its OK to do all this stuff for someone we call Santa, why not do it for another imaginary figure named - say - Zeus?

Saint Nikolaus is very real. He died a long time ago, but he is real. Looking upon us from beyond the veil. He is a role model of how we can use the blessings of wealth to exercise charity.

Zeus... if you want to start that tradition, sure. As long as you teach them what Zeus role is as they learn the truth of the gospel. I don't see how Zeus relates to any gospel principle or use him as a role model/example, so I don't see myself ever following that tradition.

And yet, when a child comes to you over an issue of faith, I think there is a unique power in bring able to say "son, not only do I know that there is a God, but you can look back on your own life and know that I never have, and never would, lie to you about something like that".

I never have and never would lie to the kids about God. I don't see the power of my testimony diminished by some tradition we do because it is fun. My parents never lied to me about God either - that He is 3 persons in one God whose substance is not like ours - yet, what they taught did not happen to be true... I still found God anyway... The Santa tradition is not powerful enough to thwart the truth of the gospel to penetrate your children's heart if they are diligently and honestly seeking the truth of the gospel, especially if you teach them who the real Saint Nikolaus is and how he served God.

Line upon line, precept upon precept...

Edited December 10, 2012 by anatess

[Just_A_Guy]

Now, Ironman... He's not real. And kids eventually learn the guy they see on TV is just a figment of one's imagination. They learn.

YOU LIE! Ironman is real and posts to this very forum under the screen name "Vort".

I will weep and pray for the souls of your poor, deranged children.

[Dove]

I agree with you Star. Nowadays even the word "Christmas" is often taken out of the Holidays to be politically correct. What's left is a season of financial gluttony where the almighty dollar is worshiped. I am thinking of the fiasco of WAl-Mart wanting to open Thanksgiving evening for the big event the next day. The employees threatened to strike as a result. I don't know how it ended; but, it seemed so greedy.

No, I wouldn't like to lie to my children about these mythical figures if I had children. On the other hand, I don't feel comfortable judging those who go along with this rendition of Christmas. I guess Santa is what we make him. It's up to us, if we portray him as a real figure to our young children, how we present him. I remember when I was a little girl asking my mom if Santa was a good man. She reassured me that he was indeed righteous. I remember her sincerity and love for me as she talked to me about it. She really wanted me to have a positive image of him. She and my dad also went all out to make our Christmas' beautiful and wondrous events, even on their meager income. The living room looked like a Christmas wonderland with our gifts laid out so decoratively. They made it an event of love in our home.

I think this aspect of Christmas is what we make it.

[Vort]

Worth noting:

In ancient Judaism, a "holiday" (so-called in English) was literally a "holy day". It was set apart from other days, considered sacred. It was normally mandated by divine law. It was a celebration of some specific religious event or belief. All who were part of the religion were expected to take part in the celebration of the holiday.

In this pure sense of "holiday", the LDS Church has a holiday every week on Sunday. Other than that, we have no holidays in the Church. So we are free to celebrate other secular "holidays" with our non-LDS neighbors in whatever way we see fit. Christmas is one such "holiday", as is Easter. Though we attach deep religious significance to these "holidays", they are not holy days as is the Sabbath or ancient Jewish celebrations. So in that sense, debating the morality of Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny is utterly moot. You cannot desecrate a non-holy "holiday" by enjoying imaginary beings.

That said, I relegate Santa to the status others have mentioned: A fun game, an open "secret". My children never actually believed in Santa. I don't think they are any the worse for it; in fact, I think it has given them a more mature perspective on the situation. But because Christmas is not a true holiday, I don't see any evil in those who do teach their children about Santa (except the problematic nature of intentionally lying to children and the very real, very unfortunate possibility of the children consciously or unconsciously associating Santa -- an imaginary being they have been told is real -- with God).

[Bini]

MOE, great substitute for Elf On A Shelf! I like it.

[Praetorian_Brow]

You can thank Cocoa-Cola for our modern Santa and the brilliant idea to replace a pagan ritual with a celebration of Christ's birth, months before it actually should be celebrated.

Celebrate as you wish, because this is probably one of the only real family days that is considered of importance in our modern world.

[Guest]

You can thank Cocoa-Cola for our modern Santa and the brilliant idea to replace a pagan ritual with a celebration of Christ's birth, months before it actually should be celebrated.

Celebrate as you wish, because this is probably one of the only real family days that is considered of importance in our modern world.

My father changed his birthday celebration to Sept 11 because its a holiday in the Philippines in the Marcos' era... Marcos' Bday. People are out of work so they all get to celebrate with him.

Of course, after Marcos' holiday quit being held, he moved it back to his real bday. Which is fortunate because 9/11/2001 would have put a big corscrew on his birthday celebration.

What's my point?

If you want to celebrate something with the rest of the world, pick a day where everybody have already had it set aside as tradition so you'll get more mileage.

[Vort]

This Deseret News article quotes this BYU Studies article in demonstrating that Jesus birthday was almost certainly not April 6, and that in fact it may well have been on or near Christmas Day.

[NeuroTypical]

Good. A full 6 months has gone by since I last visited my two cents on the subject, and nothing has changed. It's nice to be consistent:

my family and I make a big deal about the non-Christian roots/elements of a lot of normal Christmas tradition. Don't get me wrong, we have several touching and meaningful Christmas traditions centered on the actual birth of Christ and the resulting good news. Each kid has their own little nativity scene which they set up and talk about. We read from the Bible on Christmas eve. But we refuse to force-assimilate some poor pagan's winter rite into the Christian collective just because our culture won and theirs lost.

We keep Christ in Christmas - but we keep Him very much out of the Germanic Paganism of yule logs and mistletoe, the Livonian guildhall tradition of decorating trees, and the Roman Saturnalian winter festival tradition of partying and gift-giving. We acknowledge that Santa Claus has Catholic roots going back to Nikolaos the Wonderworker, but good St. Nick is very, very far away from the red-nosed jolly fellow modernized and popularized in a brilliantly sucessful consumer marketing effort intended to sell Coca-Cola.

Of course, we respect the time-honored reason behind candy canes: Keeping children quiet in church.

[dahlia]

One of my co-workers chose to not do the santa thing with her kids. I actually really liked that idea. In addition to solely focusing on the religious aspect, they did not want to lie to their kids. They told their kids presents came from them, not santa. If the kids were ever asked they would reply saying "my parents give me presents".

Any thoughts?

We did this with our son. We did not want him to believe in a 'fairy,' nor did we want him to think that anyone was responsible for him other than his parents. So, we had a secular 'Christmas' with presents that came from us, his parents.

However, my mother thought we were terrible and went out of her way to talk up Santa Claus to our son. He heard about Santa from movies and other school kids, so I think he kind of believed in Santa, no matter what his father and I said.

You win some and you lose some. He was an only child and presents weren't relegated to Christmas or his birthday, so it really didn't matter if there was a Santa or not, he was going to get most of what he wanted when he wanted it.

[Dove]

Just as a side note, I recently found out about Mistletoe and what it really means....Here it is~Mistletoe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

So where did the "dung on a stick" become something to kiss under in our Christmas traditions?!

[annewandering]

Personally, I do not like the idea of santa at all. Santa focuses on the commercial aspect of christmas instead of the religoius aspect. It distracts from the true meaning of Christmas.

One of my co-workers chose to not do the santa thing with her kids. I actually really liked that idea. In addition to solely focusing on the religious aspect, they did not want to lie to their kids. They told their kids presents came from them, not santa. If the kids were ever asked they would reply saying "my parents give me presents".

Any thoughts?

St. Nick was a monk. He gave gifts. He didnt promote merchandising. Perhaps if we remembered what he actually did we would put the blame on commercialism where it belongs not on a poor monk.

[Vort]

St. Nick was a monk. He gave gifts. He didnt promote merchandising. Perhaps if we remembered what he actually did we would put the blame on commercialism where it belongs not on a poor monk.

I don't think any person on this thread, or anyone anywhere that I have ever seen, puts blame on Nicholas. Pretty much everyone I have ever heard of, from one or two generations before my birth until now, puts the blame on commercialism. Blaming "Santa Claus" is blaming commercialism, not Nicholas.

[Guest]

St. Nick was a monk. He gave gifts. He didnt promote merchandising. Perhaps if we remembered what he actually did we would put the blame on commercialism where it belongs not on a poor monk.

Just a slight correction. St. Nikolaus was not a monk. He did consider living a life of solitude but... and this is what I was told when I was a little...

St. Nikolaus lived on the outskirts of Myra. He became a priest and was preparing himself to be a monk when the Bishop of Myra died. The people of Myra who were at the church at the time didn't know who would be chosen to be the next Bishop but then through their prayers, they had some inkling that the next person to go through the door would be the next Bishop. Well, it happened to be Nikolaus. So, he was offered the seat of Bishop. St. Nikolaus saw the earnestness and the need of the people and he couldn't ignore it, so he halted his preparations for a life of solitude to start preparations for the office of Bishop.

Cool, huh?

[annewandering]

Just a slight correction. St. Nikolaus was not a monk. He did consider living a life of solitude but... and this is what I was told when I was a little...

St. Nikolaus lived on the outskirts of Myra. He became a priest and was preparing himself to be a monk when the Bishop of Myra died. The people of Myra who were at the church at the time didn't know who would be chosen to be the next Bishop but then through their prayers, they had some inkling that the next person to go through the door would be the next Bishop. Well, it happened to be Nikolaus. So, he was offered the seat of Bishop. St. Nikolaus saw the earnestness and the need of the people and he couldn't ignore it, so he halted his preparations for a life of solitude to start preparations for the office of Bishop.

Cool, huh?

It is cool! ok I plead guilty in thinking priest and monk are the same thing. :) He was a religious figure!!

[Suzie]

I used to care about these things but now I just let my children be exposed to Santa, Christmas trees, etc while at the same time teach them about the birth of the Savior. And to be honest, in the end what I really want is for them to realize who is the Savior and the great example of love and service he has shown us.

So even though my younger ones were running inside the house with Santa hats and masks on today...tomorrow we will be going to help out at the local Catholic school who is organizing a little Christmas celebration for an orphanage. I'll be SpongeBob!

[Star_]

Wow, what great replies and different perspectives! Thanks! Okay, I am not anti-santa anymore. I am anti-commercialization-excessiveness...yeah

[Gwen]

Now I know I've been busy how did I miss the anti Santa thread this yr. lol

Have family that didn't do Santa and the kids really resented the parents later for not doing it. Really took away from the magic of Christmas and the thrill of being a little kid. There are ways to do it and still keep the holiday Christ centered. Christmas eve for my family is all about Christ and his birth. I know people (beyond family) who really resented their parents for not doing Santa, but I don't any people who resented their parents for doing Santa. I don't know anyone who thought their parents were dishonest for doing Santa either. Its all about how you handle Christmas. Just bring some balance in and find time to do both. Christmas eve for Christ. Christmas day for Santa.

I know someone that when they learned Santa (et al) were not real they also "realized" that God wasn't real either. They grew up to believe in nothing. Though it may not be the most common reaction it is a real concern for some.

This person is the reason my parents didn't push the Santa thing. It's the reason when I had the opportunity to give my input for the branch Christmas party yrs ago I got them to end the tradition of the "visit from Santa". I take my children to church to learn truth, they will get enough Santa without getting it there.

I don't destroy the game of it for my kids. They learn about it from school and tv (yes we watch Santa movies). When they ask I just ask what they think. While they are young enough to say it's real I accept it, when they say no I smile and wink and accept that too. The older ones keep the game alive for the kids but if they ever really think about it mom has never taught Santa, never threatened them with losing Christmas if they didn't behave, never made a fuss about leaving treats. If they do it fine, if they don't I don't remind them.

It's too early to say if it's the right decision or not as my kids aren't grown but so far I think they are turning out pretty good. lol

On a funny note (which I may have shared before lol) my oldest ran a test to find out if the tooth fairy is real or not.

One morning the kids came running in "mom, mom, E. lost a tooth yesterday and it's still a tooth today"

"what? E did you lose a tooth?"

with a sly grin "I was doing an experiment"

"and that was?"

"if no one knew then I would find out for sure if the tooth fairy is real or not"

"and what did you learn?"

"well... it's still a tooth".

The next day he comes in almost sad "it's still a tooth"

"Did you put it under your pillow"

"yes"

"did you tell anyone?"

"Dad"

"and now you know something new don't you."

He tries again the next night and guess what? I forgot. lol He came down almost in tears this time "It's still a tooth." I felt so bad I just gave him the dollar. lol After that he just brings me the tooth and says "this is for you" and I give him a dollar. lol

This yr he was with me in town and I commented that I had to make a stop to get a Christmas present for one of his sisters. He says "doesn't Santa do that.... or are you Santa" "what do you think" "you're the tooth fairy so... don't worry I won't tell" lol

[KevlarH]

My parents allowed us to think there was a Santa Claus when we were young children, and it didn't scar us. LOL! We were still taught the true meaning of Christmas, about Christ. I remember seeing a picture that had a Santa Claus on his knees worshiping the Christ child. That kind of put it in perspective for me at an early age. Actually what may have effected me more was an Elf that my parents put at the top of our Christmas tree, named Alvin. They said Alvin kept watch and would tell Santa if we were being naughty or trying to sneak and see what was in some presents. That was kind of unnerving. LOL!

[pam]

Well I for one am having fun tracking Santa via Norad. It's bringing out the kid in me.

[xVOWx]

Honestly, I have no problem with Santa, or elves, or any other goofy thing associated with Christmas as it's essentially just a hijacked pagan holiday (the winter solstice).

I personally think Christians of all denominations should take a much bigger interest into Hebrew holidays as that is our true theological roots.

No, I don't mean to sound like a scrooge lol, these are just my thoughts.

[norah63]

Traditions of man. This just came to mind as I was reading through all the posts.

We hold so dear the things we learn as a child. In our town there was a little booth set up for santa,

all the children went through for their treats. My turn came and when looking in my sack I saw a rotten orange. Well, that was so sad for me. Mom told me that santa didn't know, but I thought he did it on purpose. So after finding mom filling our socks one morning, I knew we had been lied to about the whole thing. In my thinking it is easy to try and put one over on kids, for what we think is their own good. Maybe not so good.