Does Santa diminish Christ from Christmas?

[NightSG]

I was just disappointed that the bishop never called the over-30s to sit on Santa's lap and tell him what we wanted for Christmas.

Then again, the cute redhead waitress kissed me when I gave her a Christmas card, so I did get something from my list

[Everliving]

It is written that “you people must not steal, and you must not deceive, and you must not deal falsely anyone with his associate”. If true worship is our aim, what place does darkness have with light? Was it not the wicked one who mixed the truth with the lie? Is he not called the father of the lie? Again it is written “you people must be holy because I am holy”. God told Daniel, “make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.” We today are living in that time. As an example, it is no longer a mystery that Jesus was not born on Dec. 25th, but his birth day is celebrated just the same. The astrologers who visited Jesus, practiced what God had condemned (De 18:10-12), little wonder they were lead first, to the one who wanted Jesus killed. The same with Santa Clause, it is a mere tradition of men. And we as Gods people must beware of Jesus words (Mr 7:13) “you make the word of God invalid by your traditions which you handed down.” In the end each one of us must resolve in our hearts what we will do, and what traditions we will hand down to our children. (De 6:6-7)

[Vort]

As an example, it is no longer a mystery that Jesus was not born on Dec. 25th, but his birth day is celebrated just the same

Unfortunately, your example is flawed. We do not know when Jesus was born, but it may very likely have been on or near December 25.

[Everliving]

Although the Bible does not give a specific date for Jesus’ birth, it does provide evidence that he was not born in December. Also, from secular evidence we can learn why December 25 was adopted as the date for celebrating his birth.

Jesus was born in the Judean city of Bethlehem. Luke’s Gospel reports: “There were also in that same country shepherds living out of doors and keeping watches in the night over their flocks.” (Luke 2:4-8) This was not unusual. “The flocks had to spend the greater part of the year in the open air,” says the book Daily Life in the Time of Jesus. But would the shepherds be outside with their flocks on a cold December night? The book says: “They passed the winter under cover; and from this alone it may be seen that the traditional date for Christmas, in the winter, is unlikely to be right, since the Gospel says that the shepherds were in the fields.”

This conclusion is corroborated by another detail in Luke’s Gospel account: “In those days a decree went forth from Caesar Augustus for all the inhabited earth to be registered; (this first registration took place when Quirinius was governor of Syria) and all people went traveling to be registered, each one to his own city.”—Luke 2:1-3.

Augustus probably ordered this registration as a census in order to gather information for use in connection with taxation and military conscription. To comply with the order, Mary, despite being heavy with child, accompanied her husband, Joseph, on the journey of some 90 miles [150 km] from Nazareth to Bethlehem. Now think about it. Does it seem likely that Augustus—a ruler who rarely interfered with local government—would require a people who were already inclined to revolt to make such a long trip in winter?

Significantly, most historians and Bible scholars reject December 25 as Jesus’ date of birth. No doubt you will find such information in an encyclopedia to which you have access. Our Sunday Visitor’s Catholic Encyclopedia states: “There is general agreement that Jesus was not born on December 25.”

The available evidence indicates that Herod died likely in the year 1 B.C.E. The Bible historian Luke tells us that John came baptizing in the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar. (Lu 3:1-3) Augustus died on August 17, 14 C.E. On September 15, Tiberius was named emperor by the Roman Senate. The Romans did not use the accession-year system; consequently, the 15th year would run from the latter part of 28 C.E. to the latter part of 29 C.E. John was six months older than Jesus and began his ministry (evidently in the spring of the year) ahead of Jesus as Jesus’ forerunner, preparing the way. (Lu 1:35, 36) Jesus, whom the Bible indicates was born in the fall of the year, was about 30 years old when he came to John to be baptized. (Lu 3:21-23) Therefore he was baptized, most likely, in the fall, about October of 29 C.E. Counting back 30 years would bring us to the fall of 2 B.C.E. as the time of the human birth of the Son of God.

The Encyclopedia Britannica states: “One widespread explanation of the origin of this date is that December 25 was the Christianizing of the dies solis invicti nati (‘day of the birth of the unconquered sun’), a popular holiday in the Roman Empire that celebrated the winter solstice as a symbol of the resurgence of the sun, the casting away of winter and the heralding of the rebirth of spring and summer.”

The Encyclopedia Americana informs us: “The reason for establishing December 25 as Christmas is somewhat obscure, but it is usually held that the day was chosen to correspond to pagan festivals that took place around the time of the winter solstice, when the days begin to lengthen, to celebrate the ‘rebirth of the sun.’ . . . The Roman Saturnalia (a festival dedicated to Saturn, the god of agriculture, and to the renewed power of the sun), also took place at this time.”

Even if Jesus’ disciples had known the exact date of his birth, they would not have celebrated it. Why? Because, as The World Book Encyclopedia says, the early Christians “considered the celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom.”

What it really boils down to is True Worship. I'm sure you are sincere and egger to find out the truth of the matter. We as Gods people should not be mixing false religion with true worship. As stated at Ro 1:25 we do not want to be like those who exchanged the truth of God for the lie. All of us must make our own choses as to what we will do and how we will lead our family's.

Edited January 13, 2013 by Everliving

[BadWolf]

Although the Bible does not give a specific date for Jesus’ birth, it does provide evidence that he was not born in December. Also, from secular evidence we can learn why December 25 was adopted as the date for celebrating his birth.

Jesus was born in the Judean city of Bethlehem. Luke’s Gospel reports: “There were also in that same country shepherds living out of doors and keeping watches in the night over their flocks.” (Luke 2:4-8) This was not unusual. “The flocks had to spend the greater part of the year in the open air,” says the book Daily Life in the Time of Jesus. But would the shepherds be outside with their flocks on a cold December night? The book says: “They passed the winter under cover; and from this alone it may be seen that the traditional date for Christmas, in the winter, is unlikely to be right, since the Gospel says that the shepherds were in the fields.”

.

Please remember that Bethlehem is in the MIDDLE EAST, not Northern Europe.

In equatorial desert (middle east, Southern California, etc.) "the rainy season" tends to happen in December & February. For a few short weeks the desert blooms, and everything turns bright green. During this ACTUAL Spring is when babies of all species are born. From lambs in Bethlehem to coyote pups in California.

This conclusion is corroborated by another detail in Luke’s Gospel account: “In those days a decree went forth from Caesar Augustus for all the inhabited earth to be registered; (this first registration took place when Quirinius was governor of Syria) and all people went traveling to be registered, each one to his own city.”—Luke 2:1-3.

Augustus probably ordered this registration as a census in order to gather information for use in connection with taxation and military conscription. To comply with the order, Mary, despite being heavy with child, accompanied her husband, Joseph, on the journey of some 90 miles [150 km] from Nazareth to Bethlehem. Now think about it. Does it seem likely that Augustus—a ruler who rarely interfered with local government—would require a people who were already inclined to revolt to make such a long trip in winter?

This also would have been an IDEAL time to travel, as wells would be running full (so too, streams, etc... That would be dry a few short months later. Game would be plentiful, the weather temperate, the roads easy.

So, too, back to the NORTHERN idea of winter... The Greeks & Romans nearly never fought in winter. Instead, they'd come home to plow their fields and plant for spring. Administrative tasks were also largely accomplished during the long winter months between harvest & planting. So as far as CA not expecting people to travel on personal business in Northen Winter... The idea is backwards. Along the Pax Romana roads inns were spaced at regular intervals to shelter any storms, and winter was the ONLY time people had to travel on personal business. Come spring, they'd be Travelling on the Emperor's business, with the legions more often than not.

It just sort of works out nicely that Dec/Jan is the MILD (aka spring) time of year in NE Africa & Arabian Peninsula.

[Everliving]

Jerusalem lies at an altitude of about 700 meters above sea level atop the central range of hills that forms the geological backbone of the Holy Land. It is influenced by winds from the West (that bring cool sea breezes in summer and rain in winter) and winds from the East (that moderate winter temperatures but can make summer days hot and dry).

The Jerusalem winter starts around December and lasts until February, with rain and cold winds, and an occasional snowfall.

Spring is the best time of year to visit, from March to April/May. The landscape around the city is full of wild flowers. Rainfall lessens.

Summer (June to September) dry with NO rain. It can be warm, even hot, so take a hat, sunglasses and water with you.

The temperature tonight (1-13-13) is 39F. Los Angeles and Jerusalem have the same weather climate.

It snows some years in Dec. It snowed 8in. 2 days ago. It was beautiful.

http://mediacenter.smugmug.com/photos/i-jF62BBV/0/L/i-jF62BBV-L.jpg

the reality is quite different form what you discribe. to someon coming to live here, I would say other wise. we are not a desert but a land flowing with milk and honey. you must search out and verify your claims befor you stumbule other Censer christions. a little reasearch would help. (and this is not spring).

But then this is a discusion of Santa Clause. I personaly dont bealive in him and he does not inter into my familys belifes systems. I do not lie to my children and I resent the fact that you have called me a lier this way. I apologys and sencearly hope you forgive me, I had not ment to offent you. or anyone, but share live saving truth with you. If Santa Clause is your chose of observing this perticulare holiday who am i and who is anyone to say other wise. we all do what we have resoved in our hearts. But make no mistake there is one who dictates how he is to be worshiped, and he is searching out those disposed to true worship. and we mear human beings have no say in that.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Everliving

[Guest]

I don't see why Jesus being born at any other day of the year would have any effect on Christmas.

Yes, before Jesus was born, pagans and non-pagans alike celebrated a festival in December. Yes, Christians chose to celebrate Christmas on the already widely celebrated feast day. It may or may not have been the actual date of Jesus birth. It doesn't matter.

The birth of Christ is an event that heralded Peace on Earth and Goodwill to All Men. All Men means Christians and non-Christians alike. What better way to celebrate Peace on Earth and Goodwill to All Men than the day of the December Festival that is already celebrated by "All Men"?

Christians should not feel that Christmas is exclusive to Christians. That exclusivity is against what Jesus Christ's ministry is all about.

[pam]

I do not lie to my children and I resent the fact that you have called me a lier this way.

I don't see where anyone called you a liar.

[BadWolf]

Jerusalem lies at an altitude of about 700 meters above sea level atop the central range of hills that forms the geological backbone of the Holy Land. It is influenced by winds from the West (that bring cool sea breezes in summer and rain in winter) and winds from the East (that moderate winter temperatures but can make summer days hot and dry).

The Jerusalem winter starts around December and lasts until February, with rain and cold winds, and an occasional snowfall.

Spring is the best time of year to visit, from March to April/May. The landscape around the city is full of wild flowers. Rainfall lessens.

Summer (June to September) dry with NO rain. It can be warm, even hot, so take a hat, sunglasses and water with you.

The temperature tonight (1-13-13) is 39F. Los Angeles and Jerusalem have the same weather climate.

It snows some years in Dec. It snowed 8in. 2 days ago. It was beautiful.

http://mediacenter.smugmug.com/photos/i-jF62BBV/0/L/i-jF62BBV-L.jpg

the reality is quite different form what you discribe. to someon livng here, I would say other wise. we are not a desert but a land flowing with milk and honny. you must search out and verify your claims befor you stumbule other cencear christions. a little reasearch would help.

But then this is a discusion of Santa Clause. I personaly dont bealive in him and he does not inter into my familys belifes systems. I do not lie to my children and I resent the fact that you have called me out this way. I apologys and sencearly hope you forgive me, I had not ment to offent you. or anyone, but share live saving truth with you. If Santa Clause is your chose of observing this perticulare holiday who am i and who is anyone to say other wise. we all do what we want in the end. but make no mistake there is one who dictates how he is to be worshiped, and we mear human beings have no say in that.

I'm an archaeologist.

Who has dug in Israel.

Aka... Has also lived there.

And has studied the historic climate change of Northern Africa & Middle Eastern regions (because then current wearher systems are pretty key in finding, much less describing where & how people live)... as well as having lived in both.

So Ive lived there, studied the region extensively. I don't think its possible to "research my claims" MORE thoroughly. But beyond that... You AGREED with most of them (while saying I was wrong, which is confusing to me).

Points of agreement :

- My comparing Israel's weather to southen California is not only NOT misinformed ... But you yourself say that Los Angles and Jeresulem have the same climate. Whereas I said southern califorbia (Los Angles is IN southern california). Both are coastal deserts with mountainous regions.

- While its still rainy (as you and I both say) from Dec-Feb, which makes it a crappy time to travel NOW ... it was ideal, then. The cities were fine. Israel has had some of the best (and oldest) plumbing systems in the world. Its Point A to Point B that is the issue.

Modern times... People travel by motorcar, buy water as needed, and trips last hours. They don't want the view spoiled by rain, washed out roads slowing things down, and cold snaps. So its recommended to travel AFTER the rains. When things are still green & haven't been bleached out by the sun. (For the record, I loooooove the 10,000 colors of gold in the summer, ESP in contrast to the cultivated areas).

Historically... It took days to travel, and the average person could not afford he pack beasts to schlep their water with them. They depended on seasonal streams & fixed wells.

- We have word definition issues (I describe Southern California & Israel as having 2 seasons: Spring & Summer... Although there are pocket ecologies in both areas... Coast vs Highlands, for example), whereas you're following a 4 season calendar... But we're both describing the SAME weather systems. The weather 2,000-3,000 years ago was a BIT different (warmer in most cases)... And the cultivation/erosion/etc. has definitely played a role in modern systems.. BUT Its CLOSE enough to modern weather we can use this weeks forecast as a general guide.

Which is NOT 12 foot (3meter) snowdrifts, where the beasts of burden have been slaughtered for food, and the first rains of spring happening in April or May, along with the lambing season. Which is the northern winter. Which makes a December birth during Lambing impossible (by 4 months). Whereas the rains start in Israel in December (typically), not April & may.

Am I saying that Jesus of Nazareth was born on December 25th?

Nope. Course not. Not until someone comes up with one of those handy Roman lists or ostraca.

But the idea that he COULDN'T have been born before April is just one more (of thousands) of ethnocentric Northern European concepts. Where winter means snow, meters and meters of it, from Nov-Apr. And "spring" means 40-70 degree weather, with rainfall, cold winds, and the occasional snowfall.

[Everliving]

You are write Pam, and I should not take it so serially, we are all brothers searching for the truth. I belief in the true God (יהוה) vehemently, and I believe many on this site do to. It makes me sad to see so many young ones believing the lies told about him. (יהוה) is a God merciful and gracious; slow to anger, pardoning error and transgression and sin, abundant in loving-kindness and acts of forgiveness. And I consider it a privilege to serve such a one. But it also says he does not give his glory to idols, in my past religion I did serve Idols and was a slave to them. I had to learn that was wrong. But it is written they are like a scarecrow in a cucumber field they can nether see, neither hear, nor deliver. We are Gods people. And to gather we should search out the truth. Let us research Christmas, Santa clause and see if it truly is a scriptural requirement. Or something we should put away, for god has said the hr. is coming and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the father with spirit and truth. Indeed, the father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. Let us put all false teaching away from us. And come in to the accurate knowledge of god. What Say You!

[Guest]

What Say You!

You waste your time, Aragorn! They had no honor in life, they have none now in death.

[Everliving]

Well its almost 10Am in the morning here so I will have to log off. but I will hear from you my friends after work. It sure is cold today, hope all will go well.

[Everliving]

ha I guess that is a Joke Eowyn, I dont get it but good day to you. Who is ARagon?

[Star_]

Who is ARagon?

He is a Lord of the Rings character

[pam]

He is a Lord of the Rings character

And Viggo Mortensen is hot!!

[Star_]

You waste your time, Aragorn! They had no honor in life, they have none now in death.

I am Isildur's heir. Fight for me, and I will hold your oaths fulfilled. What say you?

[Star_]

And Viggo Mortensen is hot!!

*If the laugh button was here, it would have been clicked*

[pam]

[Guest]

That's my favorite line of his. I love that part. . . where he finally accepts and embraces who he is and becomes a king. Meaningful. . . and hot.

[Guest]

That's my favorite line of his. I love that part. . . where he finally accepts and embraces who he is and becomes a king. Meaningful. . . and hot.

Too bad that super cougar Arwen got him first.

[norah63]

Just a sign of the times. In the last days many belief systems will be very shallow.

The traditions of this world are in the media, stores, everywhere you look. The desire to capture the mind by capturing what our eyes see. Walking by faith and not by sight is daily struggle.

Faith of any kind is under extreme attack.

As christians we must be strong and endure till the end. Looking up for the hope of our soon coming King Jesus.

No longer a baby, kept in a cradle by tradition and yearly celebrations.

[J-DawgFluffy]

Considering most Christmas traditions- Trees, lights, ect are not rooted in Christianity but the paganism that Christmas was originally celebrated for, I think Santa might be a little but of a non-issue.

[Guest]

Considering most Christmas traditions- Trees, lights, ect are not rooted in Christianity but the paganism that Christmas was originally celebrated for, I think Santa might be a little but of a non-issue.

Actually, we just had a Primary Christmas Sharing/Singing Time where we discussed the CHRISTIAN meaning of all these Christmas things like wreaths and trees and presents and holly and candy canes, and carols, and Santa, etc. etc.

Yes, the wiccans and the pagans and everybody else have their own meaning of some of the same things... but that's not why we use them.

[Guest DeborahC]

Personally, I like Santa. I have fond memories of getting oranges and ribbon candy in church from a Ho-Ho-Ho'ing big guy with a white beard!

A good explanation of where some of the Christmas traditions came from, including Santa and the tree, can be found in a book called "When Santa Was a Shaman." It goes further into the past than St. Nicholas and the author has done some interesting research.

Christmas and Easter and Halloween all are veneers on pagan holidays. But if we start tossing away everything in our culture that has pagan roots, we might find ourself in pretty stark surroundings! I mean, we ALL have pagan roots - before Christ, there was no Christianity and the folks were pagan. So there's really nothing bad and wrong about it. It just "is." And the past is very interesting!

It's common knowledge the Catholics built cathedrals on pagan sites, and incorporated the pagan symbols, all in a successful campaign to encourage people to accept Christianity (when burning and dunking and torture wasn't used.)

Christ most likely wasn't born on December 25. Lambing season is usually around mid-March, and that's when the shepherds have to keep closer watch by night. The new lambs are more likely to become dinner for a predator at night. It's fairly well agreed by history, it was easier to convert all those pagans by changing the meaning of an already existing festival since December 25 already hosted two other related festivals: Natalis Solis Invicti ("birth of the unconquered sun"), and the birthday of Mithras, the "Sun of Righteousness". Our Church celebrates Christ's birth on December 25, so I do too.

It STILL happens. In the Catholic church, you can find several "religious holidays" that are celebrated only in certain areas. The Festa do Divino Espirito Santo (Holy Ghost Festival) celebrated in my homeland Azore Islands is one you will not find even as close as mainland Portugal. Azorian people are the only Catholics I know that celebrate this festival. It does not exist in other communities, unless there are Azorean roots. This is believed to be because (according to my Catholic great grandparents) the people there originally celebrated this as a thanks to the goddess of the volcano for not burning them to cinders that year. The priests of the Catholic Church changed it to thanking Mary, Mother of Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. Each village tries to outdo the other by building a pretty little "house" for the Holy Ghost where they bring offerings, offerings of thanks, such as flowers, fruit, and beautifully baked bread. It's obviously a celebration with pagan roots. A perfect bull is sacrificed and eaten after his horns being decorated with ribbons and flowers and he is paraded through the town. This festival still happens in a lot of California towns, like the one where I live now, and not much has changed from the Old Country, which I visited recently.

Easter is the Spring Equinox and is still determined by astronomy. Depending on what country you research, it was called Ostara, Earrach, or other names. It's always the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Spring Equinox. The Spring Equinox is celebrated by many pagans as the rebirth of the SUN, as opposed to the SON. And the solar symbolism in the Catholic faith is abundantly telling. I have taken many photos in Europe of some of the oldest Cathedrals, and the SUN features strong as a testimony to what their motives were. I was Catholic before I was LDS, so I've done plenty of study about that faith and know who St. Nicholas was.

I'm not saying the motives of the Catholic Church were wrong, just that they were there, and they obviously worked for a awhile anyway. Now it appears that many in the UK are going back to the Old Religion and I found many many old church buildings being used for other things when I spent a few months in Wales last year. I couldn't find any LDS folks meeting near where I was staying, in fact.

I would agree that Christmas has become extremely commercialized. It really only became popular to celebrate "Christ-mass" in the 1800's. I think it is good to remind children why we celebrate it. A lot of parents go WAY overboard on the gift-giving. It would be better, imo, to teach the children to make and give gifts, rather than receive the whole toy store. I've watched children open gifts and toss them aside like they were nothing (which they were) and end up crying in frustration from being overwhelmed with what to play with first. It's sad... and I guess I'm just getting old because I can say,

"When I was a child, we wished hard for that ONE great gift, and if we got that ONE gift under the tree, we were overjoyed! We also took a lot of pleasure in making sure we had made little gifts to give every member of the family." Things have changed, I guess that's the way of life.

But I digress.....this is about Santa!

I think there is only danger in these celebrations if you aren't truthful about their origin and clear in the explanation about why WE celebrate them today - that for US, Christ is at their center. But to deny their roots is unwise, in my opinion.

And Santa? I love that old guy! HO HO HO!

Edited January 14, 2013 by DeborahC

[J-DawgFluffy]

Thank you Deb, you said that better than I could. My major is History, and I've always been the person to ask "Why?" so I've learned a lot about things like this. Why do we have Christmas trees? It comes from old pagan beliefs. Doesn't' diminish the symbolism our church uses. Just like with other symbolism we encounter in our lives with the church. The origin usually is irrelevant compared to the meaning.