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#1 circusboy01

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:55 PM

Sometimes I think back to things about the scriptures that I learned long ago, and wonder if I learned, or was taught correctly. For instance. When Moses came down with the commandments there were far more than just the 10 we have today. When he saw the Golden calf and what was going on. He smashed them to the ground in anger. He went back up the mountain, and the next time he came down it was with the 10 we know today, because we weren't yet ready for all of them. Is that right or at least close to right?. I also heard that we as Latter Day Saints have some of those other commandments. Is that true? Brother Ray

#2 Vort

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 07:20 PM

Moses was originally given the higher law. After the rebellion of the children of Israel, Moses received the lesser law, the so-called "law of Moses". The ten commandments are not specific to the law of Moses, however. The law of Moses can be thought of as forming a subset of the higher law, including elements that were specific to the pre-Christian era (where the "Christian era" means after Christ's resurrection).
As if anyone could knowingly commit sin without being changed both in spirit, body, and mind. Let me say this again, sin changes who we are! --james12
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#3 circusboy01

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 08:07 PM

Moses was originally given the higher law. After the rebellion of the children of Israel, Moses received the lesser law, the so-called "law of Moses". The ten commandments are not specific to the law of Moses, however. The law of Moses can be thought of as forming a subset of the higher law, including elements that were specific to the pre-Christian era (where the "Christian era" means after Christ's resurrection).


I know it's more involved than this. But to put it simply.
The higher law= a lot of commandments. The lesser law = only 10 commandments.
Right?

#4 Eowyn

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 08:17 PM

I believe the Higher Law is what Christ taught on the Mount of Olives.
Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest.

#5 Vort

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 08:23 PM

I know it's more involved than this. But to put it simply.
The higher law= a lot of commandments. The lesser law = only 10 commandments.
Right?


No, the lesser law contained a lot more than the ten commandments.
As if anyone could knowingly commit sin without being changed both in spirit, body, and mind. Let me say this again, sin changes who we are! --james12
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#6 Dravin

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 08:39 PM

I know it's more involved than this. But to put it simply.
The higher law= a lot of commandments. The lesser law = only 10 commandments.
Right?


The lesser law is the Law of Moses and, unless I'm mistaken, consists of 613 commandments by Jewish reckoning. At any rate, trying to divide higher law or lesser law by number of commandments has two issues in my mind:

1) It is subjective depending on how one wants to divide commandments.
2) It overlooks the difference in purpose and nature of the laws, the difference between the higher law and the Law of Moses isn't primarily an issue of number even if there is, by some reckoning, a numerical difference.

You may find The Guide to the Scriptures useful: Law of Moses
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#7 volgadon

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 11:33 PM

I believe the Higher Law is what Christ taught on the Mount of Olives.


Do you perhaps mean the Mount of Beatitudes?

#8 circusboy01

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:19 AM

The lesser law is the Law of Moses and, unless I'm mistaken, consists of 613 commandments by Jewish reckoning. At any rate, trying to divide higher law or lesser law by number of commandments has two issues in my mind:

1) It is subjective depending on how one wants to divide commandments.
2) It overlooks the difference in purpose and nature of the laws, the difference between the higher law and the Law of Moses isn't primarily an issue of number even if there is, by some reckoning, a numerical difference.

You may find The Guide to the Scriptures useful: Law of Moses


So am I correct in saying that the first time Moses came down from the mountain he had, with him a lot more than just ten commandments? Brother Ray

#9 Dravin

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:40 AM

So am I correct in saying that the first time Moses came down from the mountain he had, with him a lot more than just ten commandments? Brother Ray


Are you thinking that the entirety of the higher law were contained upon the stone tablets? Considering the second set of tablets didn't contain the entirety of the lesser law I'm disinclined to think the first set contained the entirety of the higher law.

Edited by Dravin, 10 December 2012 - 05:57 AM.

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#10 circusboy01

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 10:51 AM

Are you thinking that the entirety of the higher law were contained upon the stone tablets? Considering the second set of tablets didn't contain the entirety of the lesser law I'm disinclined to think the first set contained the entirety of the higher law.



Yes. That sounds like what I was taught when I first started coming to church. Back in 1967
Moses received all the commandments from God.He came down the mountain to give them to the people. When he saw what was going on, and that they had built a Golden Calf to worship. In anger he broke the tablets by throwing them to the ground.
He went back up the mountain. Either he suggested to God or God told him that mankind was not ready for all the commandments. When he came back down the mountain, he had with him the 10 commandments. Brother Ray

#11 DHK

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 11:00 AM

Matthew 22:36-40

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


All the rest of the gospel commandments are an extension of the two great commandments.

Love God.
- No other Gods nor graven images to be worshipped as God.
- Thou Shalt not take the name of the Lord God in Vain
- Remember the Sabbath Day
- Pay an honest Tithe & Offering

Love your neighbor.
- Law of Chastity
- Thou Shalt not kill, steal, bear false witness, covet.
- Honor thy Father & Mother
- Remember the Sabbath Day

Love yourself.
- Law of Chastity
- Word of Wisdom
- Remember the Sabbath Day

Just about everything else can fit into the above 3 categories.

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"But make no mistake about it, brothers and sisters; in the months and years ahead, events will require of each member that he or she decide whether or not he or she will follow the First Presidency. Members will find it more difficult to halt longer between two opinions (see 1 Kings 18:21).  President Marion G. Romney said, many years ago, that he had "never hesitated to follow the counsel of the Authorities of the Church even though it crossed my social, professional, or political life" (CR, April 1941, p. 123). This is a hard doctrine, but it is a particularly vital doctrine in a society which is becoming more wicked. In short, brothers and sisters, not being ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ includes not being ashamed of the prophets of Jesus Christ." - Neal A. Maxwell, October 10th, 1978.

 

http://speeches.byu....viewitem&id=909


#12 Dravin

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:27 PM

Yes. That sounds like what I was taught when I first started coming to church. Back in 1967
Moses received all the commandments from God.He came down the mountain to give them to the people. When he saw what was going on, and that they had built a Golden Calf to worship. In anger he broke the tablets by throwing them to the ground.
He went back up the mountain. Either he suggested to God or God told him that mankind was not ready for all the commandments. When he came back down the mountain, he had with him the 10 commandments. Brother Ray


I'm suspecting that somewhere along the way the higher law got turned into all the commandments in the dialog you remember. Which works in a sense, clearly the Children of Israel weren't ready for the entirety of the Higher Law (or 'all of the commandments'), but I'm not seeing where you go from not ready for the Higher Law to a comprehensive listing of all commandments must have been contained on the first set of tablets*. I suppose some form of everything could have been included, as Skippy points out in a sense you can knock it out in three commandments depending on how specific you want to be with them. We just don't know (or at least I don't know) what exactly was on the first set of tablets and if it qualified, by a given metric, as containing all the commandments.

Also, I still get the sense you are thinking of the Law of Moses/the Lesser Law as Higher law - X commandments, it contains commandments that aren't part of the higher law.

* Once again, the tablets associated with the giving of the Ten Commandments did not contain the entirety of the Lesser Law.

Edited by Dravin, 10 December 2012 - 01:34 PM.

Hindsight is all well and good... until you trip.

#13 garryw

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 04:24 PM

Do you perhaps mean the Mount of Beatitudes?


It was also taught at the Bountiful temple. The sermon is definitely part of the higher law. It's is not the complete higher law, but a good portion of it. For example the D&C has a lot of the higher law in it too.

#14 circusboy01

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:10 PM

I'm suspecting that somewhere along the way the higher law got turned into all the commandments in the dialog you remember. Which works in a sense, clearly the Children of Israel weren't ready for the entirety of the Higher Law (or 'all of the commandments'), but I'm not seeing where you go from not ready for the Higher Law to a comprehensive listing of all commandments must have been contained on the first set of tablets*. I suppose some form of everything could have been included, as Skippy points out in a sense you can knock it out in three commandments depending on how specific you want to be with them. We just don't know (or at least I don't know) what exactly was on the first set of tablets and if it qualified, by a given metric, as containing all the commandments.

Also, I still get the sense you are thinking of the Law of Moses/the Lesser Law as Higher law - X commandments, it contains commandments that aren't part of the higher law.

* Once again, the tablets associated with the giving of the Ten Commandments did not contain the entirety of the Lesser Law.


So the first set contained the entirety of the lower law, not the 613 higher laws. I'm remembering that the teachers said the first tablets contained all the laws. But I could be remembering wrong. They could have just said more laws then just the 10 I'm sure they were correct in what they taught me. They just didn't go into as much detail as you here at TS are. I had only been a member a few days. Maybe they thought it was too much for me to handle all at once.
Are the 10 commandments the higher or lower law or a combination of both? Brother Ray

Edited by circusboy01, 10 December 2012 - 05:38 PM.


#15 Dravin

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 06:07 PM

So the first set contained the entirety of the lower law, not the 613 higher laws.


Huh? Where are you getting the 613 higher law figure from? The 613 figure is a reference to the number of commandments, per Jewish reckoning, in the Law of Moses which is known to us as the lesser law.
Hindsight is all well and good... until you trip.

#16 circusboy01

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 04:36 AM

=Dravin;718469]Huh? Where are you getting the 613 higher law figure from? The 613 figure is a reference to the number of commandments, per Jewish reckoning, in the Law of Moses which is known to us as the lesser law.[

From your post #6 I thought commandments and laws were pretty much the same thing.
I appreciate all the information you're giving me. I enjoy learning more things about the scripture. I don't quite understand everything you've posted.I will try to learn more.

But. All I really asked for was a simple answer to a simple question.
Were there more commandments and/or laws on the first set of tablets the Moses brought down than there were on the second? Brother Ray

#17 Dravin

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:43 AM

From your post #6 I thought commandments and laws were pretty much the same thing.


Post #6 identifies that the Law of Moses, or Lesser Law, is considered by the Jews to consist of 613 commandments. My confusion is that you attached that figure to the higher law. I'm thinking you are still assuming higher = more commandments. Higher versus lesser in respect to the higher and lesser law is not a reference to the number of commandments associated with the two laws. It is a reference to their nature and purpose. Much like how I could say your Toyota is a lesser car than my Cadillac, this is not a statement that my Cadillac consists of more cars than your Toyota does.


Were there more commandments and/or laws on the first set of tablets the Moses brought down than there were on the second? Brother Ray


We don't know. We know originally Moses was going to give the higher law, then because of disobedience of the Children of Israel he ended up giving the lesser law. We have no way of knowing, I'm welcome to correction from a reputable source, based on the distinction between higher and lesser law the relative number of commandments that may have been contained on the sets of tablets (which is a separate figure than a numerical count of the commandments associated with higher or lesser law).

It would help me know which direction the communication difficulty is, from me to you, or from you to me*, if you could answer the following questions:

1) If you understand that the higher law could consist of fewer commandments than the lesser law?

2) If you understand it may not be that if one of the laws does consist of more commandments that the tablets associated with the giving of those laws must also have more?

I know you think you're asking a simple question, but if you ask if, "Does 1+1 = Fish or Orange?" as simple as the question may be to you, it is clear there are some serious misconceptions at work. I'm still addressing your higher law = more commandments, lesser law = fewer commandments misconception because from where I sit it looks like you are still operating under it. And as long as you operate under it I think it'll result in you misconstruing the answers you receive.

*It's possible you aren't under a misconception and I'm just seeing something that isn't there.

Edited by Dravin, 11 December 2012 - 10:38 AM.

Hindsight is all well and good... until you trip.

#18 circusboy01

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 07:04 PM

Post #6 identifies that the Law of Moses, or Lesser Law, is considered by the Jews to consist of 613 commandments. My confusion is that you attached that figure to the higher law. I'm thinking you are still assuming higher = more commandments. Higher versus lesser in respect to the higher and lesser law is not a reference to the number of commandments associated with the two laws. It is a reference to their nature and purpose. Much like how I could say your Toyota is a lesser car than my Cadillac, this is not a statement that my Cadillac consists of more cars than your Toyota does.




We don't know. We know originally Moses was going to give the higher law, then because of disobedience of the Children of Israel he ended up giving the lesser law. We have no way of knowing, I'm welcome to correction from a reputable source, based on the distinction between higher and lesser law the relative number of commandments that may have been contained on the sets of tablets (which is a separate figure than a numerical count of the commandments associated with higher or lesser law).

It would help me know which direction the communication difficulty is, from me to you, or from you to me*, if you could answer the following questions:

1) If you understand that the higher law could consist of fewer commandments than the lesser law?

2) If you understand it may not be that if one of the laws does consist of more commandments that the tablets associated with the giving of those laws must also have more?

I know you think you're asking a simple question, but if you ask if, "Does 1+1 = Fish or Orange?" as simple as the question may be to you, it is clear there are some serious misconceptions at work. I'm still addressing your higher law = more commandments, lesser law = fewer commandments misconception because from where I sit it looks like you are still operating under it. And as long as you operate under it I think it'll result in you misconstruing the answers you receive.

*It's possible you aren't under a misconception and I'm just seeing something that isn't there.




This whole thing has become very confusing to me, but I will try to answer as best I can.

First off I noticed that I had associated the 613 with the higher law, when it's actually part of the lesser law. I misread your post. Sorry for the confusion.

Your paragraph starting with "WE don't know" That's what I was trying to find out. I guess the problem could have been the way I worded my question,again. Sorry for the confusion.
I have always known the second set of tablets contained the !0 Commandments I knew nothing about higher and lesser laws. Thanks for teaching me about that, and thanks for showing me that Higher doesn't necessarily mean more commandments.

Lets see if I got it right. Moses came down the first time with the Higher laws. We don't know how many there were. He saw that the people weren't ready for the Higher laws.
He went back up the mountain, and brought back the 10 commandments, which were the lesser laws.
Question: Do the 10 commandments consist of the entirety of the lesser laws, or are they just ten out of a lot more? Or do we even know?

#19 volgadon

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 07:49 PM

Question: Do the 10 commandments consist of the entirety of the lesser laws, or are they just ten out of a lot more?


No, the Ten Commandments are only a small portion.

#20 circusboy01

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 08:44 PM

No, the Ten Commandments are only a small portion.


I went back and reread the post, and realized that that question had already been answered.
But didn't know if it was a lot or a little more. Looks like it is a lot. Thanks.

I wonder if we will be given the rest of the Lesser laws, before we are given the Higher laws?
Have any of the rest of the laws been revealed in the Temple? (if there is any, I'm not asking you to write them down. I know better.) I'll just listen closer the next time I go to the Temple. Brother Ray




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