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Espionage!


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#1 Bini

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 08:52 PM

Would having a career in government espionage as an LDS prevent you from entering the temple? Obtaining information by deceit and manipulation isn't "honest dealings with your fellow man"..

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#2 Vort

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 08:58 PM

Excellent question. The Doctrine and Covenants also has harsh words for those who lie in order to catch someone in a lie.

I don't know the answer, but I assume that espionage per se won't prevent you from getting a temple recommend. I know the FBI hires heavily from among the Latter-day Saints, and I assume the CIA does so, as well. How well such a life would fit into a gospel home is another matter.
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#3 selek

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 09:36 PM

Would having a career in government espionage as an LDS prevent you from entering the temple? Obtaining information by deceit and manipulation isn't "honest dealings with your fellow man"..

If that were the case, there would be no such thing as an LDS politician.
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#4 Eowyn

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 09:50 PM

I'd tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.

"Therefore, let us beware of false prophets and false teachers, both men and women, who are self-appointed declarers of the doctrines of the Church and who seek to spread their false gospel and attract followers by sponsoring symposia, books, and journals whose contents challenge fundamental doctrines of the Church. Beware of those who speak and publish in opposition to God’s true prophets and who actively proselyte others with reckless disregard for the eternal well-being of those whom they seduce. Like Nehor and Korihor in the Book of Mormon, they rely on sophistry to deceive and entice others to their views. They “set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion” (2 Ne. 26:29). (Beware of False Prophets and Teachers, supra.)

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#5 Eowyn

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 09:53 PM

My very LDS BIL was heavily recruited by the CIA. He ended up turning them down because his wife didn't want to raise their family in DC. He was going to be translating Chinese intelligence.

"Therefore, let us beware of false prophets and false teachers, both men and women, who are self-appointed declarers of the doctrines of the Church and who seek to spread their false gospel and attract followers by sponsoring symposia, books, and journals whose contents challenge fundamental doctrines of the Church. Beware of those who speak and publish in opposition to God’s true prophets and who actively proselyte others with reckless disregard for the eternal well-being of those whom they seduce. Like Nehor and Korihor in the Book of Mormon, they rely on sophistry to deceive and entice others to their views. They “set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion” (2 Ne. 26:29). (Beware of False Prophets and Teachers, supra.)

Elder M Russell Ballard


#6 rameumptom

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 08:39 AM

The scriptures say, "Thou shalt not kill", and yet we have thousands of active LDS in the military, who have been involved in the deaths of thousands of enemy, but also tens of thousands of innocent civilians that were unfortunate to be near those enemies. I think the Lord makes exceptions for those who work for the defense of the government. Remember, Capt Moroni and others used deceit as a strategem against the Lamanites.
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#7 ZionsRodeVos

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 08:53 AM

I was thinking of the military too when I read this. I was in the military during the first gulf war and my unit was sent there. I remained behind because I was in supply and I ordered gear from Camp Pendleton and shipped it to my unit. However, if I would have been on the front lines I would have been shooting to kill because that is what you do in the military and I would have felt as Captain Moroni did in that this was allowed because I would have been following military orders and my leaders believed it was necessary for the defense of our country. I view espionage the same way. The knowledge someone in espionage would be seeking would be to help those in charge better defend our country. Of course, for myself, I would not take a job like that because I wouldn't want to learn how to be deceptive. But that is just me.
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#8 pam

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 09:14 AM

You mention Camp Pendleton. Were you in the Marines?

#9 Blackmarch

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 09:30 AM

Would having a career in government espionage as an LDS prevent you from entering the temple? Obtaining information by deceit and manipulation isn't "honest dealings with your fellow man"..


Not necessarily. a grand majority of obtaining information can be done honestly. But if it's necessary for actions that are otherwise, then it won't bar you from heaven just as having to kill during a war won't necessarily bar you.
(I'd point to the example of Nephi when he had to go obtain the brass plates from laban is a good example, and there is also the times when subterfuge was used during the nephite-lamanite wars to avoid bloodshed)

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#10 ZionsRodeVos

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 09:34 AM

You mention Camp Pendleton. Were you in the Marines?


Yes. I was in 3rd Battalion 5th Marines for most of the 4 years I served active duty.
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#11 Dravin

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 09:49 AM

It should be noted that Captain Moroni made use of deceit in defense of his fellows and his country., note Alma 55. This is the man that if all men were like unto him the very powers of hell would be shaken forever.

Edited by Dravin, 31 January 2013 - 09:58 AM.

Hindsight is all well and good... until you trip.

#12 Vort

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 09:53 AM

It should be noted that Captain Moroni made use of deceit in defense of his fellows and his country. Note Alma 55. This is the man that if all men were like unto him the very powers of hell would be shaken forever.


That's because the Captain Moroni-like men would all be deceptively undermining hell's foundation, the cads.
As if anyone could knowingly commit sin without being changed both in spirit, body, and mind. Let me say this again, sin changes who we are! --james12
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Nice hand, friend, but those are not the cards I dealt you.

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Impenetrability! That's what I say!

#13 Just_A_Guy

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 12:25 PM

Here in Utah, detectives routinely lie to suspects during interviews. I presume at least some of them are temple-going Mormons. (My favorite tactic is the detective who comes in wearing a white shirt and tie and tells the suspect "I just want to help you; but you need to tell me everything so that you can put this behind you". I call it the "Bishop schtick", and I fantasize about taking one of these cases to the state Supreme Court.)
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#14 Hyena

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 09:10 PM

The thing I always think of in instances of espionage is the story of Jericho. If I recall correctly, didn't Joshua have spies within the city that were climbing into/out of a window of some woman before the walls fell? Possibly as a measure of espionage. As for the thou shalt not kill thing, some of the greatest warriors in history fought in the name of God. King David, Samson and his jawbone of an donkey, Joshua... I think it comes down to righteousness in the cause. Just as good and evil can be a blurred line so can right and wrong.. For example, everyone would agree that sex is pleasurable and therefore it must be good in some way because otherwise God wouldn't have made it thus... However, chastity is righteous and we should not simply be fornicating around for the sake of base pleasures. At least that's what I understand in my non scholarly opinion.

#15 dahlia

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 09:51 PM

Here in Utah, detectives routinely lie to suspects during interviews. I presume at least some of them are temple-going Mormons.

(My favorite tactic is the detective who comes in wearing a white shirt and tie and tells the suspect "I just want to help you; but you need to tell me everything so that you can put this behind you". I call it the "Bishop schtick", and I fantasize about taking one of these cases to the state Supreme Court.)


Police lie to suspects all the time. The best bet is to shut up and lawyer up, whether you did anything or not.

#16 Just_A_Guy

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:30 PM

Police lie to suspects all the time. The best bet is to shut up and lawyer up, whether you did anything or not.


To paraphrase Calvin (from Calvin and Hobbes): The fun thing about criminal defense is, you're never quite sure who's putting on whom.
This is one of those days that the pages of history teach us are best spent lying in bed.

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#17 annewandering

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:41 PM

I have heard this sort of thing to defend using drugs and engaging in sex to catch criminals as well. Has to be a line. I am not sure you have to lie to mislead someone. In fact I am sure you dont. Fortunately I am not going to have to be a judge in Zion to decide.

#18 Just_A_Guy

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 03:50 PM

You should hear what Salt Lake's lately lamented "vice squad" used to get away with. I'd link to the stories, but this is a family website.

Suffice it to say . . . those guys loved their work.
This is one of those days that the pages of history teach us are best spent lying in bed.

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#19 annewandering

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 03:53 PM

You should hear what Salt Lake's lately lamented "vice squad" used to get away with. I'd link to the stories, but this is a family website.

Suffice it to say . . . those guys loved their work.


When we lived there the news had a story about a guy and a massage parlor. Was deeply disturbing.

#20 Just_A_Guy

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 06:17 PM

When we lived there the news had a story about a guy and a massage parlor. Was deeply disturbing.


It was also routine. I've always wondered what those guys told their wives when they came home from work each morning.
This is one of those days that the pages of history teach us are best spent lying in bed.

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