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Good Article - written by a non-Mormon


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#1 EarlJibbs

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 08:45 AM

So I must admit, I really feel joy when someone can write a piece without slamming the Mormons. Whether or not they agree with us is a different matter, but I love it when journalists are fair. This is a fair assessment of Mormon theology. Not very long, and a good read.

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#2 pam

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 09:03 AM

It is a good article. I posted it on the lds.net facebook page a few days ago.

#3 paulh1396362268

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 09:08 AM

Wow, that was one of the most fair descriptions of our theology (the part that he touched on) I've ever seen that was written by a non-Mormon! Thanks for sharing.

#4 Traveler

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 09:20 AM

Hidden between the lines of the article is a sometimes lost truth understood by every devout LDS (Mormon). That is - regardless of one's religious preference - If one loves liberty, Mormons are an ally that must be included in the fight to preserve liberty. And that to reject LDS as a people is a step in giving up one's liberties.

I would submit that an individuals view of Mormonism is a litmus test in understanding and committing to Liberty - but it is hardly the only test.

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#5 EarlJibbs

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 09:21 AM

It is a good article. I posted it on the lds.net facebook page a few days ago.


oooooh, look how awesome you are.... :D

#6 pam

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 09:44 AM

oooooh, look how awesome you are.... :D


I know. But thanks for pointing that out. :P

#7 Anddenex

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 09:56 AM

Yes, it is always pleasant to read a respect article which isn't trying to convert or trying to demean.

Thanks for sharing.

#8 Vort

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 10:24 AM

His understanding of the premortal council and Lucifer's fall is wrong, but frankly I've heard the same story told by so many Mormons that his understanding is well within the LDS norm. And it's at least much better and more coherent than the typical presentation of LDS doctrine by non-believers.
As if anyone could knowingly commit sin without being changed both in spirit, body, and mind. Let me say this again, sin changes who we are! --james12
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#9 missionary0204

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 10:33 AM

Thanks for sharing! I really enjoyed the read.

#10 Windseeker

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 11:13 AM

This non-member understands the core foundational principles that underpin our entire set of beliefs and it's sad that so many members don't seem to get it or just ignore it.

Smart Mormons believe and support Liberty, Agency and Accoutability

...and support the rights of the not-so-smart to choose captivity and tyranny as well.

#11 Windseeker

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 12:36 PM

This non-member understands the core foundational principles that underpin our entire set of beliefs and it's sad that so many members don't seem to get it or just ignore it.

Smart Mormons believe and support Liberty, Agency and Accoutability

...and support the rights of the not-so-smart to choose captivity and tyranny as well.


they can also spell accountability...lawl

#12 BrendaM

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 02:39 PM

So I must admit, I really feel joy when someone can write a piece without slamming the Mormons. Whether or not they agree with us is a different matter, but I love it when journalists are fair. This is a fair assessment of Mormon theology. Not very long, and a good read.

Smart Mormons


Very interesting article.

What I thought was more interesting was the title at the top of the web page -
"Canada Free Press...Because without America there is no Free World"

As a Canadian & LDS, I agree.

#13 Dove

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 03:36 AM

His understanding of the premortal council and Lucifer's fall is wrong, but frankly I've heard the same story told by so many Mormons that his understanding is well within the LDS norm. And it's at least much better and more coherent than the typical presentation of LDS doctrine by non-believers.



Hello, Vort;
I thought his article was a correct reflection on the premortal council and Lucifer's fall.

Can you tell me what the correct rendition is?

Thanks
Dove

#14 Vort

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:37 AM

Hello, Vort;
I thought his article was a correct reflection on the premortal council and Lucifer's fall.

Can you tell me what the correct rendition is?


Sure. Scripturally, the account is pretty much as follows:

God presented his (the Father's) plan of salvation to the premortal councils and announced the need for a Savior. Two individuals (that we are told of) spoke up: The First agreed to abide the Father's will and do all things for the Father's glory; the other lied, claiming to be able to save all so that none would be lost, and because of his amendatory offer claimed the honor of the Father for himself. God called the First to be his only begotten and Savior, and the second rebelled with his followers and were cast out of the Father's presence forever, being called Lost (Perdition).


As if anyone could knowingly commit sin without being changed both in spirit, body, and mind. Let me say this again, sin changes who we are! --james12
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Nice hand, friend, but those are not the cards I dealt you.

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Impenetrability! That's what I say!

#15 Dove

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:27 AM

Right, I should go study the Pearl of Great Price again...and the Doctrine and Covenants.

Thanks Again
Dove

#16 Traveler

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:42 AM

Sure. Scripturally, the account is pretty much as follows:

God presented his (the Father's) plan of salvation to the premortal councils and announced the need for a Savior. Two individuals (that we are told of) spoke up: The First agreed to abide the Father's will and do all things for the Father's glory; the other lied, claiming to be able to save all so that none would be lost, and because of his amendatory offer claimed the honor of the Father for himself. God called the First to be his only begotten and Savior, and the second rebelled with his followers and were cast out of the Father's presence forever, being called Lost (Perdition).


You may have missed the point of the article - that the division in heaven, the rebellion of Lucifer and the war in heaven was centered in the cause of liberty. And that the elements of that war continue on earth and have reflections in the political conflicts currently taking place in our political landscape.

I believe his assessment is spot on - I also believe (this from my personal observation) - that both political parties in our political landscape have a propensity to lie concerning their actual agenda and that in reality they pretend to support the divinely given right of liberty. Therefore, I believe the great lie that Satan is now perpetrating is that liberty is nothing more than a choice in a lesser of two evils.

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#17 Vort

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:00 AM

You may have missed the point of the article - that the division in heaven, the rebellion of Lucifer and the war in heaven was centered in the cause of liberty. And that the elements of that war continue on earth and have reflections in the political conflicts currently taking place in our political landscape.


Perhaps you missed the point of the article, which seemed to me to be: Mormons believe in freedom of choice as a cornerstone of their foundation of faith. To demonstrate this, he recited the common but fallacious belief that Satan provided an alternate plan that we somehow voted on.
As if anyone could knowingly commit sin without being changed both in spirit, body, and mind. Let me say this again, sin changes who we are! --james12
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Nice hand, friend, but those are not the cards I dealt you.

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Impenetrability! That's what I say!

#18 pam

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:02 AM

My understanding is that it was all the same plan. The difference being Christ would give all glory to the Father and Lucifer wanted it all for himself.

#19 Traveler

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:29 AM

Perhaps you missed the point of the article, which seemed to me to be: Mormons believe in freedom of choice as a cornerstone of their foundation of faith.

I agree that the article highlighted that thought and I agree that freedom of choice is a cornerstone of our faith. To be clear - do you disagree?

To demonstrate this, he recited the common but fallacious belief that Satan provided an alternate plan that we somehow voted on.


Let me see if I understand you correctly - you claim that Satan did not present anything in opposition (alternate plan) to the Father and that you think no one in the per-existance exercised a vote (in essence a choice) between what the Father presented and what Satan presented?

For the record - I believe and I believe LDS doctrine supports my belief that the Father presented a plan - that Satan opposed the Father's plan (and still opposes the Father's plan) and that ever spiritual child of G-d chose (voted) who they would follow.

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#20 Vort

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:39 AM

I agree that the article highlighted that thought and I agree that freedom of choice is a cornerstone of our faith. To be clear - do you disagree?


Not at all.

Let me see if I understand you correctly - you claim that Satan did not present anything in opposition (alternate plan) to the Father


Satan defied the Father. He opposed his plan. He did not present another "plan". There is no other plan possible. Your equation of opposition to "alternate plan" is faulty. Rather, Satan lied. He claimed he could bring all back to the Father and thus usurp his honor. He could in fact do no such thing. It was a lie, a ploy to gain for himself the honor and glory of the Father.

and that you think no one in the per-existance exercised a vote (in essence a choice) between what the Father presented and what Satan presented?


Again, your equation is false. Making a choice is not identical with exercising a vote. To say that we "voted" on which plan to follow very clear suggests a sort of democratic process, where the winner of the vote gets to forward his agenda. But this is nonsense. There never was another plan. The only alternate agenda that we know of was Satan's, and his agenda was simple: Usurp the Father's honor and glory for himself. To do this, Satan -- believe it or not -- lied.

Of course we made a choice. But calling that choice a "vote" negates the clear meaning of the word "vote" and how we use it.
As if anyone could knowingly commit sin without being changed both in spirit, body, and mind. Let me say this again, sin changes who we are! --james12
***********************
Nice hand, friend, but those are not the cards I dealt you.

***********************
Impenetrability! That's what I say!




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