The Pope has given his resignation

[MarginOfError]

I think a big reason why the 12 and First Presidency don't have an Emeritus/retirement option is that they hold the keys to the Kingdom via their ordinations to the apostleship. There are only so many people at a time that are given those keys (this is why we have 1 quorum of the 12, unlike the Seventies that can grow as the Church needs expands.

That said, if one of them wanted to step away from the ministry, they have the agency to do so.

I'm not sure that's much of a barrier.

All it would take is a decision to release an apostle from the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. At that point, he would still hold the priesthood office, but would no longer retain the keys--much like bishops retain the priesthood office of bishop when they are released, but do not retain the keys of presiding over their wards.

In fact, there are two men in our history that were ordained apostles but never served in the Quorum of the Twelve (they both served as Assistants and then counselors in the First Presidency).

Anyway, I don't think it would take much more than an administrative decision to release members from the Quorum of the Twelve. I think the reason it hasn't been done is that they have avoided a real need to by making more effective use of the Quorums of the Seventy. But I don't see any scriptural prohibition from putting apostles on emeritus status.

[annewandering]

I'm not sure that's much of a barrier.

All it would take is a decision to release an apostle from the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. At that point, he would still hold the priesthood office, but would no longer retain the keys--much like bishops retain the priesthood office of bishop when they are released, but do not retain the keys of presiding over their wards.

In fact, there are two men in our history that were ordained apostles but never served in the Quorum of the Twelve (they both served as Assistants and then counselors in the First Presidency).

Anyway, I don't think it would take much more than an administrative decision to release members from the Quorum of the Twelve. I think the reason it hasn't been done is that they have avoided a real need to by making more effective use of the Quorums of the Seventy. But I don't see any scriptural prohibition from putting apostles on emeritus status.

Just a minute here. Apostles do have emeritus. Elder La Grande comes to mind just off hand. There have been a good number of them.

[MarginOfError]

Just a minute here. Apostles do have emeritus. Elder La Grande comes to mind just off hand. There have been a good number of them.

Can you validate that claim? That would be interesting.

[annewandering]

I apologize. I am not sure how I got the idea that Elder La Grande was emeritus but definitely thought it! Well that is a shock to me. lol.

[Guest]

Even a thread on the pope becomes about what the LDS church should be doing differently? Really?

[Guest gopecon]

I'm not sure that's much of a barrier.

All it would take is a decision to release an apostle from the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. At that point, he would still hold the priesthood office, but would no longer retain the keys--much like bishops retain the priesthood office of bishop when they are released, but do not retain the keys of presiding over their wards.

In fact, there are two men in our history that were ordained apostles but never served in the Quorum of the Twelve (they both served as Assistants and then counselors in the First Presidency).

Anyway, I don't think it would take much more than an administrative decision to release members from the Quorum of the Twelve. I think the reason it hasn't been done is that they have avoided a real need to by making more effective use of the Quorums of the Seventy. But I don't see any scriptural prohibition from putting apostles on emeritus status.

You are right that it could be done if they felt called to make the change. I don't dispute that, but an Apostle is different from a Seventy (or a bishop). If the Lord wanted to give them a break in their old age, I'm sure He would.

[HiJolly]

If the Lord wanted to give them a break in their old age, I'm sure He would.

...and since we're His hands, the Brethren can implement it as they see the need arise. Just a regular policy change would do it.

And I don't think it's a matter of what the Church "should do", but what the Church "could do".

[Vort]

And I don't think it's a matter of what the Church "should do", but what the Church "could do".

This was not at all your original statement. Rather, you opined that "we" should "give our prophets the same option." To wit:

I think it would be a good thing for us to give our prophets the same option.

[Blackmarch]

I think it would be a good thing for us to give our prophets the same option.

Thats not for us to decide.

[NightSG]

If the prophet wished to step down from his position, he could do so.

I'd would hope so; the 11th Article of Faith should apply to the prophet too. Failing that, the 12th would leave us subject to the 13th Amendment anyway.

The fact that none has ever done so doesn't mean they can't, just that they don't. I'm guessing there is an important reason for that.

Has there ever been an apparent significant need? (Prophet absolutely unable to fulfill his role for an extended period, I mean. I suspect the Pope sees just that on the horizon for himself.)

[Guest]

Which fairly recent prophet was unable to serve for his last few years, so his counselors and the 12 filled in for him? He was still at the head of the Church but not publicly active. Am I remembering right or imagining things?

[NightSG]

Even a thread on the pope becomes about what the LDS church should be doing differently? Really?

Now you're making it sound like a challenge to find a topic that won't have the same result.

This could end up being the Mormon version of Google Roulette.

[pam]

Wasn't it President Hunter? I think he was the Prophet and President Hinckley had to fill in for most of his duties during that time.

[NightSG]

Which fairly recent prophet was unable to serve for his last few years, so his counselors and the 12 filled in for him? He was still at the head of the Church but not publicly active. Am I remembering right or imagining things?

I haven't read the full job description, but it doesn't seem to include nearly as many mandatory (or essentially mandatory) public ceremonial duties as the Pope. Barring dementia (to the point where the Apostles are spending all their time asking the Spirit which is Divine wisdom and which is rambling) or a total inability to communicate effectively, the most important responsibilities could still be met.

[annewandering]

Pres. Benson was uncommunicative for about five years before he died. His councilors carried on during that time of which Pres. Monson was one. Pres. Hunter was in poor health but only physically.

[Suzie]

Has there ever been an apparent significant need? (Prophet absolutely unable to fulfill his role for an extended period, I mean. I suspect the Pope sees just that on the horizon for himself.)

We had several Prophets with health/age related conditions where in many cases, the first counselor or both counselors became unofficially "acting presidents" of the Church. For example, President Hunter, President Benson, Heber J. Grant, George Albert Smith and President David O. McKay.

[estradling75]

Pres. Benson was uncommunicative for about five years before he died. His councilors carried on during that time of which Pres. Monson was one. Pres. Hunter was in poor health but only physically.

President Benson grandson (political cartoonist Steve Benson) fell away about that time. His stated reason was that he knew President Benson's condition and couldn't believe he was a prophet. Families of leaders can have it really hard.

[annewandering]

I remember when Pres. McKay would be too frail to attend General Conference. We usually did not know until he was not there. He tried really hard to make it to at least one session. It is interesting that the church carries on. The mantle is still here even if the person holding it is not able to serve in total capacity.

[Suzie]

Agreed. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it started to happen soon. It wasn't all that long ago that we started putting seventies onto emeritus status. The major impetus behind doing so was that we needed younger, more physically able men to help the Twelve in their responsibilities. I don't know if we'll ever hit the point of requiring Apostles and prophets to go onto emeritus status (how would succession work if it were mandatory?) but I can see us allowing them to step out if their health and physical abilities make the calling overly burdensome on them.

Hugh Brown* (you gotta love the guy) was one of the first leaders to propose giving Emeritus status to Apostles like himself but when the Church did institute it back in the late 70's, it was applied only to those below the Council of the Twelve Apostles but he tried.

* Same amazing man who proposed the lift of the Priesthood ban on blacks nearly a decade before that change was announced in 1978. His proposal for the Emeritus status was around the same year.

[annewandering]

President Benson grandson (political cartoonist Steve Benson) fell away about that time. His stated reason was that he knew President Benson's condition and couldn't believe he was a prophet. Families of leaders can have it really hard.

I remember that. It was for sure a time that faith had to be strong. :)

[mnn727]

Which fairly recent prophet was unable to serve for his last few years, so his counselors and the 12 filled in for him? He was still at the head of the Church but not publicly active. Am I remembering right or imagining things?

President Benson, yes he was the Prophet when I joined.

[mnn727]

You aren't being serious, are you?

I am, I keep remembering the side by side pics of John Paul 2 and President Hinckley when they were both alive.

[NeuroTypical]

Mnn727 - are you seriously advocating for the notion that the Word of Wisdom is a cure for Parkinson's disease?

I remember those side-by-side pictures. They usually came with some smarmy snark from some sarcastic fool trying to make hay out of the pictures. The fools came from both faiths, if I recall correctly.

[Vort]

Which fairly recent prophet was unable to serve for his last few years, so his counselors and the 12 filled in for him? He was still at the head of the Church but not publicly active. Am I remembering right or imagining things?

President Benson was, by some accounts, completely unable to function as an administrator at the end of his life. No need for any "virtual presidents", though; the First Presidency was the leading quorum of the Church, as it always has been when it has been constituted, and the majority of the First Presidency was completely able to carry on the administrative duties of the Church.

In the early 1980s, I believe that Presidents Kimball, Tanner, and Romney were in a somewhat similar position; all were reasonably mentally alert and able, but were very old and had difficulty completing their many duties. If I remember correctly, President Hinckley was made a third counselor in the First Presidency and saw to a great deal of the work that was done at that time. Upon President Tanner's death, President Hinckley became the Second Counselor.

Seems like there was a similar situation in the late 1960s, when President McKay was very old. I believe Alvin R. Dyer was made a member of the First Presidency, despite not being a member of the Quorum of Twelve, in order to help with the administrative burden. (President Dyer also holds the distinction of being the only man in this dispensation -- that I know of -- who was ordained to the office of seventy AFTER being ordained to the office of apostle.)

[NightSG]

I am, I keep remembering the side by side pics of John Paul 2 and President Hinckley when they were both alive.

Side by side pics taken at any other time would be really creepy.