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LDS communion practices


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#1 helena330

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 10:45 AM

I had a quick question about an LDS practice that I noticed and am confused about. I have read all of the LDS scripture books (minus the LDS version of the Bible... I just read my own Catholic version), and noticed in one of the D&C (I can't remember the verse exactly, sorry!) explaining how to do the administration of the Lord's Supper/Communion/Sacrament. In the D&C it mentions which type of wine to use... but I know that the LDS church today, at least in the US, uses water in the sacrament instead of wine. My questions are: is this a universal practice of the entire LDS church, and not simply in the US church? And: when/why did this change take place? I don't think I remember seeing anything in any of the scripture verses explicitly saying to change from wine to water, so I am curious as to how/when/why this change ocurred. Was it a revelation that a later prophet had? And perhaps another question: why use water and not grape juice, as in some Protestant churches that don't use wine? Is it a special water, or just out of the tap? Thanks for any answer given!

#2 Finrock

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 10:54 AM

Good Afternoon helena330. It is a pleasure to meet you and welcome to the forums! :)

My questions are: is this a universal practice of the entire LDS church, and not simply in the US church? And: when/why did this change take place? I don't think I remember seeing anything in any of the scripture verses explicitly saying to change from wine to water, so I am curious as to how/when/why this change ocurred. Was it a revelation that a later prophet had?

And perhaps another question: why use water and not grape juice, as in some Protestant churches that don't use wine? Is it a special water, or just out of the tap?

Thanks for any answer given!


A scripture in D&C 27:2 clarified that it doesn't matter what we eat or drink during the Sacrament:

"For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins."

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#3 estradling75

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 10:55 AM

Lets start with Doctrine and Covenants 27:2 2 For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins. Then there is the Word of Wisdom which has a restriction against Wine (Although there is a exception for Sacrament if necessary) I think the transition has been mostly cultural and practical... Why buy or make wine when tap water works just as well in the Lords eyes?

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#4 Dravin

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 11:11 AM


My questions are: is this a universal practice of the entire LDS church, and not simply in the US church? And: when/why did this change take place? I don't think I remember seeing anything in any of the scripture verses explicitly saying to change from wine to water, so I am curious as to how/when/why this change ocurred. Was it a revelation that a later prophet had?


To my knowledge there is no revelation stating, in effect, "Thou shalt use water."

And perhaps another question: why use water and not grape juice, as in some Protestant churches that don't use wine?


Because it doesn't matter if it's water or grape juice:

2 For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins.


Which makes your question a historical one instead of a doctrinal one. It's still valid, I'm just unable to answer it. Luckily there are some history buffs on the forum, hopefully one of them knows something about the history of wine/water/juice use in the Church.

Is it a special water, or just out of the tap?


This one I can handle, it is just regular water. In every ward (congregation) I've been in that has meant out of the tap.
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#5 Dravin

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 11:12 AM

*Looks up* :lol: Hey, Helena, anyone shared D&C 27:2 with you yet? :D
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#6 helena330

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 11:16 AM

Oh yes, I remember this part in the D&C, I just couldn't remember its exact location. I guess I was just confused, since the WofW verses against wine specifically leave out wine used for the sacrament, and wine that is made by the LDS faithful (as it says right below verse 2 in D&C 27). So I just thought that maybe the church would then just make their own wine to be used in the church services. But yes, from that verse I can see that it doesn't matter what is used. I just wondered if maybe a later prophet or leader of the church had changed this practice. Thanks for the replies!

#7 estradling75

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 11:20 AM

According to this site Word of Wisdom/History and implementation - FAIRMormon

The First Presidency and the 12 began using Water instead of Wine on 5 July 1906. I doubt it took very long to spread.

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#8 SanctitasDeo

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 07:39 PM

I am surprised no one has commented on the context of the verse in Doctrine & Covenants 27. The section is a warning that the wine they had been purchasing might be poisoned by enemies of the church, thus the commandment to make their own. The section in itself, as is obvious from the history on the FAIR site, was never taken as a commandment not to use wine per se; it just put very specific conditions on it.

#9 NightSG

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:01 PM

Well, the obvious issue I see, having made some wine before my conversion, is that if I, as a member, were to make wine for Sacrament, I would basically be left with the choice between violating the WoW to taste it first, or wait and risk nauseating everybody at Sacrament meeting with some foul swill due to any number of unpredictable conditions in the process. (Actually, I guess a swish-and-spit tasting would be technically OK, but then I'd be disappointed if I'd done a good job and had to wait for Sunday to actually get to drink a little of it.) (Besides, if I was going to do that, I wouldn't waste the opportunity on a grape wine, but would do a mead or cyser instead.) (I hereby claim the prize for overuse of commas in a short post.)

#10 helena330

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 09:27 AM

Well, the obvious issue I see, having made some wine before my conversion, is that if I, as a member, were to make wine for Sacrament, I would basically be left with the choice between violating the WoW to taste it first, or wait and risk nauseating everybody at Sacrament meeting with some foul swill due to any number of unpredictable conditions in the process.

(Actually, I guess a swish-and-spit tasting would be technically OK, but then I'd be disappointed if I'd done a good job and had to wait for Sunday to actually get to drink a little of it.)

(Besides, if I was going to do that, I wouldn't waste the opportunity on a grape wine, but would do a mead or cyser instead.)

(I hereby claim the prize for overuse of commas in a short post.)



So... if you were making wine to be used for communion, which is explicitly allowed in the D&C, you'd be violating the WoW by taking a sip outside of the church service in order to make sure you had made it correctly?

Since the WofW verses specifically give allowance for the drinking of wine if used in a sacrament meeting, I would think that it would be okay to check that wine for drinkability while making it. I'm sure the people who make the wine would be allowed to taste the wine without breaking any laws, since obviously exceptions are given.

And, as someone who drinks wine at Communion at least every Sunday (and every other day I go to Mass), let me tell you... the wine doesn't have to taste good. It just has to be drinkable. I've had many communion wines that tasted great, and many communion wines that tasted not-so-great. It's just a gamble you make when you choose to take the wine. Of course, in the Catholic Church you don't have to take the wine if you don't want to so... many people don't.

#11 Vort

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 10:13 AM

So... if you were making wine to be used for communion, which is explicitly allowed in the D&C, you'd be violating the WoW by taking a sip outside of the church service in order to make sure you had made it correctly?


You speak as though this is an important issue. It is not. It is not an issue at all, as far as I have ever heard.
As if anyone could knowingly commit sin without being changed both in spirit, body, and mind. Let me say this again, sin changes who we are! --james12
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#12 helena330

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 10:16 AM

You speak as though this is an important issue. It is not. It is not an issue at all, as far as I have ever heard.


NightSG was the one who brought this up as being an issue against the church making wine; I was simply responding to it.

#13 Vort

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 10:20 AM

NightSG was the one who brought this up as being an issue against the church making wine; I was simply responding to it.


helena, you had six other responses on the first page, which pointed out the relevant verse in the Doctrine and Covenants, its historical context, and the current practice of the Church. NightSG's post was a speculative by-the-way. No one makes wine for LDS sacrament meetings. No one. It is not done. The whole thing is a non-issue.
As if anyone could knowingly commit sin without being changed both in spirit, body, and mind. Let me say this again, sin changes who we are! --james12
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Nice hand, friend, but those are not the cards I dealt you.

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#14 Dravin

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 10:20 AM

So... if you were making wine to be used for communion, which is explicitly allowed in the D&C, you'd be violating the WoW by taking a sip outside of the church service in order to make sure you had made it correctly?

Since the WofW verses specifically give allowance for the drinking of wine if used in a sacrament meeting, I would think that it would be okay to check that wine for drinkability while making it. I'm sure the people who make the wine would be allowed to taste the wine without breaking any laws, since obviously exceptions are given.


Fundamentally your surety of the interpretation of the Word of Wisdom is moot as far as LDS beliefs and perspectives go.

Edited by Dravin, 07 March 2013 - 10:23 AM.

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#15 helena330

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 10:37 AM

I understood, and read, and responded to the first page of comments with the relevant verses. I know the LDS church does not make their own wine for their church services. I understand that NightSG's comment was a personal what-if/speculation. I responded to it in the context of his speculation by first asking for a clarification, and then providing my own speculation. I understand how dialogue works. I also understand this is a non-issue, as the LDS church already has their practices set in place. Since I had received my answer to my original question, I didn't think it outrageous to respond to someone's speculative what-if comment. My question was simply answered, so it's not about making things simpler; I just thought I'd have a dialogue with a commenter. But I will be on my way now. Sorry for the inconvenience.

#16 Vort

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 10:42 AM

I understood, and read, and responded to the first page of comments with the relevant verses. I know the LDS church does not make their own wine for their church services. I understand that NightSG's comment was a personal what-if/speculation. I responded to it in the context of his speculation by first asking for a clarification, and then providing my own speculation. I understand how dialogue works.

I also understand this is a non-issue, as the LDS church already has their practices set in place. Since I had received my answer to my original question, I didn't think it outrageous to respond to someone's speculative what-if comment. My question was simply answered, so it's not about making things simpler; I just thought I'd have a dialogue with a commenter.

But I will be on my way now. Sorry for the inconvenience.


helena, this specific forum is called "Learn about the Mormon Church". There are several other forums for general conversation and speculation. Since you posted this question to the "Learn about the Mormon Church" forum, I naturally assumed you wanted to learn about the Mormon Church and its practices. Logical, huh? So when you started disputing and arguing about what this or that meant, it didn't look much like you were just looking for information.

If this was simply a matter of not paying attention to the forum you were posting in, then that's not a big deal. I am sure one of the mods will happily move this thread to a different forum. I was not trying to shout you down; I just get tired of people coming on this site pretending to be seeking for information, when in fact they have an axe to grind. If you are not one of those, then you are welcome here. Stay and converse.
As if anyone could knowingly commit sin without being changed both in spirit, body, and mind. Let me say this again, sin changes who we are! --james12
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Nice hand, friend, but those are not the cards I dealt you.

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Impenetrability! That's what I say!

#17 mnn727

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 04:23 PM

Relax, Helena was just responding to one persons post. sheesh read the thread, huh. Why would anyone want to learn about us if members get nasty over their reply to an LDS posters post?




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