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Lorenzo Snow Couplet


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#1 mikbone

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 04:38 PM

We had the chapter 5 lesson in priesthood and Relief Society last sunday. Grand Destiny of the Faithful. Did anyone have any interesting discussions?
"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value" - Thomas Paine

#2 mikbone

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:24 PM

Well that got no traction.

Gonna bump it with the following quote


Devotion to Divine Inspiration
By Dr Leroi C. Snow son of Lorenzo Snow

Only a short time before his death, President Snow visited the Brigham Young University, at Provo. President Brimhall escorted the party through one of the buildings; he wanted to reach the assembly room as soon as possible, as the students had already gathered. They were going through one of the kindergarten rooms; President Brimhall had reached the door and was about to open it and go on when President Snow said: "Wait a moment, President Brimhall, I want to see these children at work; what are they doing?" Brother Brimhall replied that they were making clay spheres. "That is very interesting," the President said. "I want to watch them." He quietly watched the children for several minutes and then lifted a little girl, perhaps six years of age, and stood her on a table. He then took the clay sphere from her hand, and, turning to Brother Brimhall, said:

“President Brimhall, these children are now at play, making mud worlds, the time will come when some of these boys, through their faithfulness to the gospel, will progress and develop in knowledge, intelligence and power, in future eternities, until they shall be able to go out into space where there is unorganized matter and call together the necessary elements, and through their knowledge of and control over the laws and powers of nature, to organize matter into worlds on which their posterity may dwell, and over which they shall rule as gods.”
"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value" - Thomas Paine

#3 Eowyn

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:29 PM

You'll probably get more traffic if you ask specific questions or give your own input on the lesson.

"Therefore, let us beware of false prophets and false teachers, both men and women, who are self-appointed declarers of the doctrines of the Church and who seek to spread their false gospel and attract followers by sponsoring symposia, books, and journals whose contents challenge fundamental doctrines of the Church. Beware of those who speak and publish in opposition to God’s true prophets and who actively proselyte others with reckless disregard for the eternal well-being of those whom they seduce. Like Nehor and Korihor in the Book of Mormon, they rely on sophistry to deceive and entice others to their views. They “set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion” (2 Ne. 26:29). (Beware of False Prophets and Teachers, supra.)

Elder M Russell Ballard


#4 mikbone

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:43 PM

How bout? Richard Ostling in his TIME Magazine, PBS NewsHour with Jim Lehrer interview, asked President Hinckley Question: God the Father was once a man as we were. This is something that Christian writers are always addressing. Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are? Answer: I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it. I haven’t heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don’t know. I don’t know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don’t know a lot about it and I don’t know that others know a lot about it. Drawing Nearer to the Lord President Gordon B. Hinckley Nov 1997 Ensign conference issue “The media have been kind and generous to us. This past year of pioneer celebrations has resulted in very extensive, favorable press coverage. There have been a few things we wish might have been different. I personally have been much quoted, and in a few instances misquoted and misunderstood. I think that’s to be expected. None of you need worry because you read something that was incompletely reported. You need not worry that I do not understand some matters of doctrine. I think I understand them thoroughly, and it is unfortunate that the reporting may not make this clear. I hope you will never look to the public press as the authority on the doctrines of the Church.”
"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value" - Thomas Paine

#5 bytebear

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:51 PM

I chocked up that response to pearls before swine. Of course Hinkley was far more polite.

#6 Just_A_Guy

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 10:02 AM

Missed priesthood last week for a teaching development class; but I'm loving these quotes you're providing.
This is one of those days that the pages of history teach us are best spent lying in bed.

--Roland Young ("Uncle Willie"), The Philadelphia Story


#7 Anddenex

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 10:15 AM

I wasn't in priesthood last week either, however, I am thinking I need to read this chapter 5 lesson.

I thoroughly believe according to LDS doctrine President Snow speaks the truth, and what a great lesson to President Brimhall when he picked up the child and set her on the table. This reminded me of the question asked by the Apostles to the Lord, who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? He did not just point out a child, he literally went to the child, picked her up, set her on the table and then delivered his speech. Reminds me also of the angel to Nephi, "LOOK!" (emphasis added).

I do agree with President Hinckley also. There isn't much said about Heavenly Father and I agree we don't know a lot about it.

#8 Connie

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 10:24 AM

I wasn't in Relief Society this past Sunday. I was helping with the Sunbeams. I'll definitely go read the lesson though. Regarding Pres. Hinckley's quote, he was specifically asked about the first part of the couplet. And he's right, we don't talk or teach about that because it has not been revealed to us where God came from. We just don't know. We do emphasize and teach pretty extensively on the second part of the couplet, that we can become like God because that is what the scriptures tell us.

#9 mikbone

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 10:34 AM

Did Joseph Smith Teach the Doctrine??

Sermon delivered by Joseph Smith at the funeral of King Follett held at the General Conference of the Church at Nauvoo, Ill. on Sunday Afternoon April 7, 1844 As reprinted and edited in the April 1971 issue of the Ensign

God an Exalted Man

I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man.
God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.
In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.
These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.

Eternal Life to Know God and Jesus Christ

I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it**, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me.


** See John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value" - Thomas Paine

#10 Anddenex

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 10:39 AM

Did Joseph Smith Teach the Doctrine??

Sermon delivered by Joseph Smith at the funeral of King Follett held at the General Conference of the Church at Nauvoo, Ill. on Sunday Afternoon April 7, 1844 As reprinted and edited in the April 1971 issue of the Ensign


I would gather that this idea taught by Joseph Smith would fall inline with President Hinckley's statement,

I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don’t know a lot about it and I don’t know that others know a lot about it.



#11 mikbone

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 11:09 AM

I would gather that this idea taught by Joseph Smith would fall inline with President Hinckley's statement,



Kinda. This is why I made the original post.

You are quoting the statement that the prophet provided to the dogs and swine. See Matthew 7:6-7

The statement that I think more likely applies to this topic is Hinkley's statement during general conference that I listed above. I will print it again, emphasis added.

Drawing Nearer to the Lord
President Gordon B. Hinckley
Nov 1997 Ensign conference issue


“The media have been kind and generous to us. This past year of pioneer celebrations has resulted in very extensive, favorable press coverage. There have been a few things we wish might have been different. I personally have been much quoted, and in a few instances misquoted and misunderstood. I think that’s to be expected. None of you need worry because you read something that was incompletely reported. You need not worry that I do not understand some matters of doctrine. I think I understand them thoroughly, and it is unfortunate that the reporting may not make this clear. I hope you will never look to the public press as the authority on the doctrines of the Church.”
"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value" - Thomas Paine

#12 Anddenex

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 11:30 AM

You need not worry that I do not understand some matters of doctrine. I think I understand them thoroughly,


I think both statements apply and are congruent with each other. There isn't a lot said about Heavenly Father.

What has been said, is not found in scripture, thus as President Hinckley suggested toward the philosophical aspect of this doctrine.

If God, Heavenly Father was once a man, then who is Heavenly Father's father, and so on. Is, then, there a multitude of Saviors? We don't know, there isn't much doctrine behind it, and yet there is plenty of doctrine behind it.

That is more the point I was addressing.

#13 mikbone

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 11:54 AM

While I was teaching the lesson I was inspired with the following interpretation of Hebrews 5:12-14 12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Milk and Meat We have been well provided with milk in the Church education system. Everyone is well instructed in the first principles and ordinances of the gospel. But if there are first principles, there must be secondary, tertiary, etc... You show up to church and you are given a tall glass of chilled homogenized 2% milk and it is good. But if you want the meat you have to put forth a bit more effort. You gotta hunt down your prey and then slaughter it. You have to butcher the carcass. Age the meat. And then cook it properly. If you do the steps wrong you will ruin the flesh or worse become sick. And even if you do prepare it correctly, you can still choke on the meat if you don't drink lots of milk while chewing and savoring each bite. Personally, I like the meat. It tastes good. Its worth the extra work. The reason why I liked this lesson so much was the fact that it is the first time since the '97 TIME commentary that the church has placed this doctrine in lesson manual (as I recall). This fact that the lesson was in the manual proves that we teach it. The entire lesson alludes to the couplet, but the actual wording of the couplet is not found in the lesson. You may say that the couplet is not in the lesson because the church is trying to de-emphasis the first portion of the couplet. But I believe that they want us to seek out the information for ourselves.
"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value" - Thomas Paine

#14 mikbone

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 12:22 PM

If God, Heavenly Father was once a man, then who is Heavenly Father's father, and so on. Is, then, there a multitude of Saviors? We don't know, there isn't much doctrine behind it, and yet there is plenty of doctrine behind it.


I believe that Joseph Smith knew much more than many give him credit.

For example:

Sermon delivered at Nauvoo temple grounds on Sunday June 16, 1844
Source: Thomas Bullock report

No End to Gods

if J. C. was the Son of God & John discd. that God the Far. of J. C. had a far. you may suppose that he had a Far. also---where was ther ever a Son witht. a Far.---where ever did tree or any thing spring into existence witht. a progenitor-- & every thing comes in this way--Paul says that which is Earthyly is in likeness of that which is Heavenly-- hence if J. had a Far. can we not believe that he had a Fa.r also--I despise the idea of being scared to death--I want you all to pay particr. attent. J. sd. as the Far. wrought precisely in the same way as his Far. had done bef-- as the Far. had done bef--he laid down his life & took it up same as his Far. had done before--he did as he was sent to lay down his life & take it up again & was then committed unto him the keys &c I know it is good reasoning--

* John 5:19, John 10:17-18

Edited by mikbone, 12 March 2013 - 12:31 PM.

"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value" - Thomas Paine

#15 Anddenex

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 12:37 PM

I believe that Joseph Smith knew much more than many give him credit.

For example:

Sermon delivered at Nauvoo temple grounds on Sunday June 16, 1844
Source: Thomas Bullock report

No End to Gods

if J. C. was the Son of God & John discd. that God the Far. of J. C. had a far. you may suppose that he had a Far. also---where was ther ever a Son witht. a Far.---where ever did tree or any thing spring into existence witht. a progenitor-- & every thing comes in this way--Paul says that which is Earthyly is in likeness of that which is Heavenly-- hence if J. had a Far. can we not believe that he had a Fa.r also--I despise the idea of being scared to death--I want you all to pay particr. attent. J. sd. as the Far. wrought precisely in the same way as his Far. had done bef-- as the Far. had done bef--he laid down his life & took it up same as his Far. had done before--he did as he was sent to lay down his life & take it up again & was then committed unto him the keys &c I know it is good reasoning--

* John 5:19, John 10:17-18


I was once told that Joseph Smith could have delivered a book, itself, with regards to section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants.

I have never myself read that statement, so I don't know if this is Mormon myths or not. I believe you to be correct, and I, myself, personally believe all our prophets know much more than they reveal also.

#16 bytebear

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 09:25 PM

Turtles all the way down - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

#17 Vort

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 08:06 AM

Hebrews 5:12-14
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Milk and Meat

We have been well provided with milk in the Church education system. Everyone is well instructed in the first principles and ordinances of the gospel. But if there are first principles, there must be secondary, tertiary, etc...

You show up to church and you are given a tall glass of chilled homogenized 2% milk and it is good.

But if you want the meat you have to put forth a bit more effort. You gotta hunt down your prey and then slaughter it. You have to butcher the carcass. Age the meat. And then cook it properly. If you do the steps wrong you will ruin the flesh or worse become sick. And even if you do prepare it correctly, you can still choke on the meat if you don't drink lots of milk while chewing and savoring each bite.

Personally, I like the meat. It tastes good. Its worth the extra work.


Fwiw, in the KJV Bible, "meat" means "food". ("Flesh" means what we today call "meat".) So the Hebrews quote acknowledges that brand new converts need mother's milk -- easily digestible, sweet, nutritious, unchallenging -- but that those experienced in the gospel need "food" that is at once more challenging and more nutritious for a non-infant.
As if anyone could knowingly commit sin without being changed both in spirit, body, and mind. Let me say this again, sin changes who we are! --james12
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#18 mikbone

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 10:48 AM

Fwiw, in the KJV Bible, "meat" means "food". ("Flesh" means what we today call "meat".) So the Hebrews quote acknowledges that brand new converts need mother's milk -- easily digestible, sweet, nutritious, unchallenging -- but that those experienced in the gospel need "food" that is at once more challenging and more nutritious for a non-infant.


Yeah, I'm still gonna eat me some Bar-B-Que.
"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value" - Thomas Paine

#19 Justice

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 09:43 AM

I pondered over this lesson for quite a while before I taught it. You know, what can possibly be greater? Of all the things that man has imagined over the centuries that attempt to explain the destiny of man, what can be greater than what Joseph Smith taught? Can we imagine or teach anything more meaningful for man? I think many don't embrace it simply because it's beyond man's imagination to even conceive. In a strange way, it's one of the evidences that Joseph Smith was a prophet. On his own, man would never think to say, "You know, the final destiny of man is to be as God is." Considering what the current belief was in his day about who God was, it would have never enter man's mind to think man could possibly become that. Even today, people of other religions simply cannot believe this because of who or what they believe God is. Even we can see how ridiculous it is to imagine that we can ever become a triune being made up of three persons, yet only be one being, without physical body. I agree with them. We can never become that. This is the greatest restored teaching, in my opinion, and it must be accompanied by an understanding of who God really is... or it can't work.

#20 The Folk Prophet

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:36 AM

If God, Heavenly Father was once a man, then who is Heavenly Father's father, and so on. Is, then, there a multitude of Saviors? We don't know, there isn't much doctrine behind it, and yet there is plenty of doctrine behind it.


I would contend (admitting some speculation, but basing that speculation on logic, order, and known truths) that it is not so complicated as to be totally incomprehensible.

Within the context of understanding the theological context of it though, the question of who is Heavenly Father's father and so on is the wrong question. As would be: Who is Heavenly Father's great-great-great-grandfather? Who is His 20 trillion-zillion brothers and sisters? Who is his third cousin once removed? "Who," is the wrong question.

The appropriate question is a simpler question. Does Heavenly Father have a father? The answer to this is fairly clearly, yes. Does Heavenly Father have a great-great-great-grandfather? Does he have some bazillion brothers and sisters? The answer to these can be fairly safely surmised. Yes. The order of father to son, mother to daughter, brother to sister, etc., seems to be clearly laid out, and implicitly eternal.

Is there a multitude of Saviors? A bit more complicated because it would require an assumption that the plan of salvation for all exalted gods worked the same way. I would think, logically, that God being perfect, chose a perfect plan, and therefore I would contend the answer to this is also, yes. I would say the basic pattern of the plan of salvation is repeated again and again. Speculative? Yes. Logical? I think so.

We don't know much, true. But the basic idea of it seems fairly plain. Righteousness+celestial marriage=becoming gods. Being gods=having eternal offspring who are then lovingly given the same opportunity to become gods through righteousness+celestial marriage, likely through a plan of salvation that is the same as we know ours to be. And so it goes. And so it has gone before.

Not that complicated at the most basic level.
If prophets and apostles can be wrong, then it's possible that the prophets and apostles who said that prophets and apostles can be wrong were wrong.




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