Trying to understand lesson re: Priesthood today.

[Guest]

Today the bishop came into RS and taught about the Priesthood and women, using as his foundation the life of Mary Fielding Smith and how she raised her family after Hyrum was martyred. I know he was trying to teach something really good, but I think he just wasn't getting across what he was trying to impress upon us. He said as women we have the power of the priesthood, but not the authority of the priesthood. The more he tried to explain that, the more confused we got. And I've been a member of the church my whole life.

He wrote 3 categories on the board, but never wrote anything under them. If any of you don't mind, I'd be curious how you distinguish between them; because by the end of the lesson I just found myself wondering how we see and explain the difference between me as a mother praying in faith over my sick child, and my husband as a father giving the child a priesthood blessing. Anywho, here are the categories:

Power of the priesthood

Authority of the priesthood

Blessings of the priesthood

Have at it.

[livy111us]

I would say that they have the power of the priesthood in certain circumstances, such as the Temple.

Joseph Smith said that they would share the authority of the priesthood with their husbands (see below)

and, of course, they partake in the blessings of the priesthood.

President Franklin D. Richards:

"I ask any and everybody present who have received their endowments, whether he be a brother Apostle, Bishop, High Priest, Elder, or whatever office he may hold in the Church, "What blessings did you receive, what ordinance, what power, intelligence, sanctification or grace did you receive that your wife did not partake of with you?" I will answer, that there was one thing that our wives were not made special partakers of, and that was the ordination to the various orders of the priesthood which were conferred upon us. Aside from that, our sisters share with us any and all of the ordinances of the holy anointing, endowments, sealings, sanctifications and blessings that we have been made partakers of.

Now, I ask you: Is it possible that we have the holy priesthood and our wives have none of it? Do you not see, by what I have read, that Joseph desired to confer these keys of power upon them in connection with their husbands? I hold that a faithful wife has certain blessings, powers and rights, and is made partaker of certain gifts and blessings and promises with her husband, which she cannot be deprived of, EXCEPT BY TRANSGRESSION of the holy order of God. They shall enjoy what God said they should. And these signs shall follow them if they believe."

(Brian H. Stuy, ed., Collected Discourses, 5 vols. [burbank, Calif., and Woodland Hills, Ut.: B.H.S. Publishing, 1987-1992], 5: [19 July 1888]).

[Guest]

Thanks. I definitely thought of connections to the temple.

[livy111us]

The best article I've read on women and the priesthood was written by Carol Madsen and called Mormon Women and the Temple: Toward a New Understanding. This article will answer most every question anyone has about the subject. You can read it here:

Sisters in Spirit: Mormon Women in Historical and Cultural Perspective - Google Books

[mikbone]

Strange. We had a lesson in priesthood that focused on Neal A Maxwells 1978 conference talk:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1978/04/the-women-of-god?lang=eng

Excerpt

We know so little, brothers and sisters, about the reasons for the division of duties between womanhood and manhood as well as between motherhood and priesthood. These were divinely determined in another time and another place.

When the real history of mankind is fully disclosed, will it feature the echoes of gunfire or the shaping sound of lullabies? The great armistices made by military men or the peacemaking of women in homes and in neighborhoods? Will what happened in cradles and kitchens prove to be more controlling than what happened in congresses? When the surf of the centuries has made the great pyramids so much sand, the everlasting family will still be standing, because it is a celestial institution, formed outside telestial time. The women of God know this.

I find it amazing in our day of enlightment when femenism and equality issues rear their ugly head that our GAs were able to succintly state the importance of motherhood decades ago.

Edited March 25, 2013 by mikbone

[PhilosophicEagle]

This brings up a question here. How does the church define power and authority?

[Anddenex]

Power of the priesthood

Power of the priesthood is exemplified in Mary Fielding Smith and the Movie "Legacy." I believe it was Mary Fielding Smith who laid her hands on the ox and prayed. Sister Smith was acting in power and faith of the priesthood, not with authority.

Women/Mothers who pray that their child will be healed, while their husband, home teachers, bishops, etc.. may not be around, act in the power of the priesthood but not the authority of the priesthood.

In the same sentence a man may act with authority of the priesthood, but not be able to exercise the power of the priesthood. I believe it was Elder Bednar who provided a wonderful talk with regard to the power and authority of the priesthood.

I believe "many are called but few are chosen" is also good example of the difference between power and authority also.

Authority of the priesthood

Authority is solely the ability bestowed to use the priesthood. There are many man in the Church who hold the priesthood, they have the authority, but are unworthy to act in "power" of the priesthood.

Blessings of the priesthood

Solely the result of when the priesthood is called upon, and the result is that the will of man matches the will of God and God bestows his gift.

Have at it.

Had at it! :)

[The Folk Prophet]

Something missing from the discussion here is the oath and covenant of the priesthood. Brethren hold the priesthood as a covenant. This is far more weighty than what, I think, we actually understand. Power in the priesthood isn't really the important part in my opinion. Faith is faith and God answers the prayers of the faithful in miraculous ways, priesthood aside. But the authority of the priesthood comes with an obligation to serve. In exchange, we are given blessings. But the blessing of healing the sick (which is usually the most common thing gone to) are not really that important in the grand scheme of things. The blessings of the priesthood are directly tied to our rights to exaltation. Without the priesthood we have no baptism, no endowments of power (given to men and women), no sealings, hence no celestial marriage, no joining of father to son, mother to daughter. No turning the hearts of the fathers. In short, no salvation. No fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. All of these things are given to men and women. This is the power and the blessing of the priesthood, of which women are just as much recipients as men.

Getting cured from disease or getting a blessing of comfort is nice. It's comforting. But the priesthood and it's glory are so much more important and amazing than that.

The priesthood is the gift of salvation. Men are authorized to perform ordinances to this end, and ultimately under covenant to do so.

[Anddenex]

This is the talk given by Elder Bednar, "The Powers of Heaven."

The priesthood is the authority of God delegated to men on the earth to act in all things for the salvation of mankind (see Spencer W. Kimball, “The Example of Abraham,” Ensign, June 1975, 3). Priesthood is the means whereby the Lord acts through men to save souls. One of the defining features of the Church of Jesus Christ, both anciently and today, is His authority. There can be no true Church without divine authority.

The power of the priesthood is God’s power operating through men and boys like us and requires personal righteousness, faithfulness, obedience, and diligence. A boy or a man may receive priesthood authority by the laying on of hands but will have no priesthood power if he is disobedient, unworthy, or unwilling to serve.

Brethren, for a boy or a man to receive priesthood authority but neglect to do what is necessary to qualify for priesthood power is unacceptable to the Lord. Priesthood holders young and old need both authority and power—the necessary permission and the spiritual capacity to represent God in the work of salvation.

[The Folk Prophet]

This is the talk given by Elder Bednar, "The Powers of Heaven."

Apostles always seem to say things so much better.

[Roseslipper]

we had a lesson given to us today by our stake pres, ward conf in r.s. It was on the priesthood too. It all has to do with who holds the keys, Bishop holds the keys for his ward, stake president for his stake, and so on. Prophet has the keys for the church, and so on. When you are set apart for a calling, that person has the keystodo so. woman have been set apart with the proper person who holds the keys and woman can hold the priesthood like in the temple.only.cause the temple pres. has the keys for the temple hes over. lays his hands on the women who need to have it, while performng priesthood ordinances in the temple. woman also share it with their husbands, or bishop or hometeacher IF a priesthood is not there, a woman can give a blessing just with a simple prayer of faith,faith works miracles . We have some sister missionaries about a wk ago or so they asked me if I wanted them to give me a blessing? My mind was thinking how can this be? there woman well it was a wonderful experience. It was a blessing in form of a prayer. No laying on of hands. I remember many yrs ago in a primary lessons when the mormons were crossing the plains, in this group their were no men and the cow got sick, the woman blessed it. cause she had faith. does any one remember that story? Poweris faith faith is power we can draw upon the powers of faith.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Roseslipper

[Still_Small_Voice]

You do not need the priesthood to draw down the powers of heaven. You need the priesthood for ordinances.

The woman who blessed her ox crossing the plains did not do it with the priesthood. She did it with faith in Heavenly Father and Christ. Anyone can petition for blessings from Heavenly Father. It does not require the priesthood.

[Roseslipper]

You do not need the priesthood to draw down the powers of heaven. You need the priesthood for ordinances.

The woman who blessed her ox crossing the plains did not do it with the priesthood. She did it with faith in Heavenly Father and Christ. Anyone can petition for blessings from Heavenly Father. It does not require the priesthood.

Iknow she didnt hold the priesthood.

[Vort]

My understanding of the terms is as follows:

The Priesthood is the authority of God.

The "power of the Priesthood" is the ability to exercise the authority of God, to call down his power through faith. Men and women both may draw on the power of the Priesthood.

The "authority of the Priesthood" is the formal conferral of the authority of God. Only men may receive the authority of the Priesthood, and only worthy men may have actual power in that authority.

The "blessings of the Priesthood" are the blessings of God to us. All such divine blessings are blessings of the Priesthood. Specifically, those blessings that come through the kingdom of God (the LDS Church) are often referred to as Priesthood blessings.

[rameumptom]

Women share the Patriarchal Priesthood with their husbands. They do not have the authorization to perform ordinances (except in the temple), but do have the power to perform many other functions as an auxiliary to the priesthood.

In Nauvoo, women actually had more "priesthood authority" than they do today. Women were allowed to give blessings, and run the Relief Society as a priesthood sanctioned organization. Emma Smith, as president of the RS and as a member of the Quorum of Anointed, wielded more power than we can imagine today.

In fact, Brigham Young invited Emma to move west with the Saints. She said she would do so on one condition: he recognize her preeminent position as RS president and QoA member. Brigham Young refused.

Why? Because BY was actively involved in consolidating the power of the Quorum of 12 Apostles. Joseph Smith left many powerful organizations, each with claims to authority: First Presidency (Sidney Rigdon), Council of 50, Stake High Councils, Quorum of Anointed, etc. BY was working quickly and feverishly to end the disparate groups, so that Mormonism would survive as a single group of people. Some groups were disbanded (QoA, Relief Society), while BY used other methods to reign in some powerful people, such as having members of the Council of 50 sealed to him and his dynasty.

Brigham also tried to control other things, such as not allowing Lucy Mack Smith's biography of JS into the Utah territory, as it was suggestive of JSIII being the next in line.

As I noted, BY shut down the Relief Society for almost 20 years (IIRC). When it was reinstituted under Eliza R Snow, it was minus many of the rights, powers and authorities Joseph Smith initially gave to them.

[The Folk Prophet]

Talking about the power of the priesthood in terms of the ability to perform healings is like talking about the power of a computer in terms of being able to tell what time it is.

The ability to heal is nice. It is a gift. It is part of how God shows love for us. It is a means to bring people closer to God. But it's a drop in a bucket compared to the true value and meaning of the priesthood.

Whether a woman heals someone through a faith of prayer or through the laying on of hands has no bearing on that blessing. Either way, the person is just as healed. Either way, it really comes down to faith. The point being, you don't need the priesthood in order to exercise faith to miracles.

[Vort]

Ram, you speak with an authoritative tone far beyond what you or anyone else knows. Your definition of the Patriarchal Priesthood does not agree with that provided by our current leaders. Your story of Emma bargaining with Brigham Young in a power struggle over Church leadership authority is not, to my knowledge, well-attested. Your seeming plain statements of fact are, I believe, largely gossip and innuendo. If you have references to establish your claims, I would like to see them.

[rameumptom]

Vort,

As a historian, I look at the data and try to interpret it. My view is as valid as any other.

There was lots of issues between Emma and Brigham Youn, some of which I mentioned above that were tied to the OP. Others included who would end up with the huge debt that Joseph had incurred (Brigham left Emma with the debt that Joseph took under personal loans, and tried to take the lands that Joseph was only trustee to).

Here are some insights from the Book of Abraham Project on the Nauvoo Relief Society, and how the Utah version never arose to the same level of prominence (even though Eliza R Snow tried to make it so). The Nauvoo Female Relief Society Meeting of April 28, 1842 | Boap.org's Blog

You can now read the Nauvoo RS minutes Nauvoo Relief Society Minute Book

which show just how much power was given to the sisters.

In John Turner's new book on Brigham Young and his attitude towards the RS: "When I want sisters...to get up the Relief Society, I will summon them to my aide" and then disbanded them. He believed men were the "head and the God of woman", very different view than that of Joseph Smith. Young suspended the general RS for over 20 years, uncomfortable with women having such power (probably based partially on his dislike of Emma) Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet - John G. Turner - Google Books

(Please read the entire section available online).

The Council of 50 was used by BY to move the saints across the Plains, but then pretty much put it out of its misery. It had little power, ir any, in Utah, especially after Utah was made a territory.

Council of Fifty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are other things that are not available online, but this should suffice to give some "authority" to my reading of the history. BTW, I have a firm testimony that Brigham Young was a prophet of God. That said, I think he was a very rough, backwoods character, and that it showed in how he ran the Church and territory of Utah.

[The Folk Prophet]

As I understand it, there were distinct descriptive wording changes that took place, line upon line, over time, concerning our understanding and usage of words like "ordination", "keys", "quorum", etc... The fact that these terms were used doesn't really mean much as to evidence of power or authority. We don't use "ordain" now in ways they did in the early church. Over time this has been clarified and standardized. Ordaining is different than setting apart. In the early church...the words weren't always used the same.

"Keys", same thing. Now we talk about keys in very distinctive terms. Only a few specific callings have keys (bishop, EQ pres, etc.) But the idea of what a key is has taken on specific meaning over time. In general terms, giving keys is simply assigning authority or rights, and in general terms that could be applied to any calling or organization (you now have the keys to run the sunbeam class or whatever) but we do not use it this way. That does not mean it was never used that generally, even by Joseph Smith who was also learning line-upon-line, and moreover, may have had no real need to have that level of clarity in his wording.

Ordaining and the giving of keys and the usage of the term quorum are contemporary descriptions of specific things, and we carefully use them to help clarify understanding organization and authority. But the usage of those words in the early church in a meeting does not imply the women had more authority or power than they do now. Women have every bit as much authority and power now as they did then, with the obvious potential and highly contested (even in the early church) ability to lay hand on the sick -- this was contested and unclear for many, many years in the church. Over time, as the way the church works (line upon line) the proper understanding developed. To discount the current church's policy in favor of Joseph Smith's original ideas is to discount continuing revelation.

It is quite clear that women were never authorized to baptize or seal, etc... And as I have pointed out, the ability to heal the sick by faith has never gone from women. Laying hands on or not is irrelevant.

[Jenamarie]

Or maybe it wasn't a "line upon line" thing. In this book recently published by Deseret Book, which includes some of the original RS minutes, in the forward by Virginia H Pierce and Sheri Dew, they point out that, yes, there is a difference between the RS of the Nauvoo period, and the RS of today, and the only explanation they give is "we don't know why".

ETA: and I'll just put in a little plug for the book: it's a *really* interesting read. :)

[The Folk Prophet]

Or maybe it wasn't a "line upon line" thing. In this book recently published by Deseret Book, which includes some of the original RS minutes, in the forward by Virginia H Pierce and Sheri Dew, they point out that, yes, there is a difference between the RS of the Nauvoo period, and the RS of today, and the only explanation they give is "we don't know why".

ETA: and I'll just put in a little plug for the book: it's a *really* interesting read. :)

Well that depends on what your definition of "is" is...er...I mean what your definition of "it" is. "It" may not have been line upon line...depending on what "it" is. Some things are not line upon line...(except, they kind of are anyhow. A big bulk revelation still fits into the overall idea of line upon line). But even if you view it differently, I think components of the RS were unquestionably line upon line even if there was an all at once difference when it was reestablished post Nauvoo.

[Smeagums]

Today the bishop came into RS and taught about the Priesthood and women, using as his foundation the life of Mary Fielding Smith and how she raised her family after Hyrum was martyred. I know he was trying to teach something really good, but I think he just wasn't getting across what he was trying to impress upon us. He said as women we have the power of the priesthood, but not the authority of the priesthood. The more he tried to explain that, the more confused we got. And I've been a member of the church my whole life.

He wrote 3 categories on the board, but never wrote anything under them. If any of you don't mind, I'd be curious how you distinguish between them; because by the end of the lesson I just found myself wondering how we see and explain the difference between me as a mother praying in faith over my sick child, and my husband as a father giving the child a priesthood blessing. Anywho, here are the categories:

Power of the priesthood

Authority of the priesthood

Blessings of the priesthood

Have at it.

First, I know many may not agree with me here but a women can lay here hands upon her child's head and offer them a blessing. Blessings are fulfilled by faith. We have examples of some of the prophet's wives laying their hands on the heads of the sick.

That's a side note that I know most will disagree with me.

Power of the priesthood: Comes from Heaven alone and is not controlled by man. (Alma 13)

Authority of the priesthood: The ordinance that authorizes a man to act in God's name. The ordinance does not mean that he will then have power in the priesthood. Priesthood power is acquired from Heaven by living righteously.

Blessings of the priesthood: I think these are pretty self explanatory.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Smeagums

[The Folk Prophet]

First, I know many may not agree with me here but a women can lay here hands upon her children's heads and offer them a blessing. Blessings are fulfilled by faith. We have examples of some of the prophet's wives laying their hands on the heads of the sick.

There's a distinct difference between "can" and "should". This is one of those line upon line things that was clarified over time. There are a lot of records of people doing things that were later shown to be inaccurate in overall propriety. In some cases that did not necessarily mean the previous practice was invalid for the understanding at hand. But as enlightenment was given, that appropriateness changed. In some cases the validity was never in place in spite of the practice (as in the case of baptisms for the dead being performed without record keeping or sealings done outside the temple) wherein those things had to be re-administered correctly at a later time.

Whether a woman can lay her hands on a head to give a blessing or not (currently) may be somewhat in question (though I would dare say that extensive research into church policy and statements over the years would show it as inappropriate). Whether she should or not is quite a bit more clear. And ultimately, even if she could or should, it would never be appropriate to say, "by the power of the Melchizedek priesthood which I hold" because she does not hold the Melchizedek priesthood. Ultimately, there is no need for her to do this though. The laying on of hands, as I've said several times now, is irrelevant. Faith is requisite to miracles. The holding of priesthood authority is not.

Therefore, regardless of whether a woman could or could not ever heal by the laying on of hands (and there is evidence that at one time this was acceptable), it does not indicate that women once held the priesthood, and certainly doesn't indicate that women do now.

Another note for those who doubt that women hold priesthood, women administer priesthood ordinances in the Temple.

Women do not hold the priesthood. To hold the priesthood requires the laying on of hands by one in authority to transfer that authority. Women are not so ordained. They do not hold it, nor have they ever. The administering of the ordinances in the temple is done under the authority and priesthood of the temple presidency. This is not indicative of holding the priesthood. It does, actually, help to explain your first point and how the laying on of hands by women worked.

[Smeagums]

Your second quote of me I erased when you were responding and not after your post but I agree that faith is required to perform miracles. I guess I am just saying that women who have faith can lay their hands on their children and heal them.

[The Folk Prophet]

Your second quote of me I erased when you were responding and not after your post but I agree that faith is required to perform miracles. I guess I am just saying that women who have faith can lay their hands on their children and heal them.

No worries. I agree in general terms with you. I do not know if that would be appropriate though (more research would be required for me to say), and feel confident that it would not be necessary.