Friendships w/ opposite sex


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Of course it is speculation. You have to speculate or you can never offer what people ask for in an advice forum. A handful of post is never enough to get the fullness of both sides of the story... We barely get a partial of one side. So if you think that one should not speculate then by all mean stay out of the advice forums (and really internet forums in general because that is a lot of what they are).

Meanwhile the rest of us will speculate and try to offer ideas and advice for the person requesting it. And that person (busfeliz in this case) who knows the situation much better then they can ever really express it can pick and choose what advice seems to be most meaningful for their situation. And they can choose to ignore that which they don't like or don't think is workable.

THere is an alternative methodology - asking clarifying questions. Speculation may still be necessary, but should be limited to the extent possible. If not? We risk creating versions of the story that are totally removed from the actal situation ... and then what we really get is the advisers 'issues' with relationships rather than advice.

THere is also, as I diverge (but then, as per previous post - that is my learning style), something I learne dthe hard way about some of teh difference between men and women. Sometimes, and correct me if I am wrong, there is something called venting ... where we just want to verbalize the frustration as a method of cartharsis. The problem, partcularly with husbands, is that we DO listen, but rather than JUST listen, we immediately attempt to problem solve.

The upshot, when someone is venting about a Calendar ... is that really that big of a deal? As a guy, I have some sympathy with the husband. If he got the Calendar just to support his local football team without even noticing the girls in the Calendar ... He might feel a little henpecked to be called 'stupid' for making what amounts to an oversight. That is of course speculative about the husbands motives though is it not?

I will say that, both within and without the church, there is this expectations that marriage somehow magically makes everything work. I would speculate that the husband's flirtatuous behavior existed well before the marriage ... is there any reason to think that the flirtatuous behavior (which was apparently cute in a single guy) will magically change into a version of pure chastity and abject loyalty? Even as he commits, I see very clearly the need for the young couple to really learn about each other - I doubt most husband deliberatrely irritate their wives, just as I doubt most wives deliberatrely irritate their husbands.

When I see things like the husband coming home and telling the wife that he talked with the woman from the photo ... I see a man attempting to be open and transparaent with his wife. Perhaps not perfectly, but that is something that warrents praise ... not a demand for full access to everything the husband does in a complete and total violation of trust. I for one have trusted friends that when I am frustrated I trust enough to both vent, and, knowing they are objective and honest with me when I need them to be, I would neverr in a million years grant access to my wife to than venting process and seeking of counsel. If that is what is needed to validate trust ... we have a serious trust issue in the relationship, and that is as much about he insecurity of the one demanding access to 'everything' as it is about the husbands behavior.

Finally, there is the spiritual aspect. Or workplace has changed significantly since the 1800's and it is no longer, in even my line of work (I routinely interact with women who are both higher and lower in rank than myself). The couple here most definitely need to set some red lines, but the conversation has to get to the point where they can engage rationally and in a way that they can communicate understandably with one another. When one is using the word stupid, and the other controlling ... I think its a safe, albiet speculative bet, that they are simple talking over one another.

People DO view thinsg different, and as I was advised as I joined the church, there is a difference between a scriptural Mormon and a cultural Mormon. Levels of modesty that are 'enforced' through church law are often different than levels of modesty that are culturally mormon. No two people in the church are going to blend these ideas in the same way. Rather than fight about it, I would offer a word of caution, if you really think the issues are bad ... take a step back and look at it. I daresay, having a 'good' lds man is a true blessing, (as is having a true lds woman), and in this case ... the grass is definitely not greener on the other side of the pasture. Beware of blowing up minor issues nto major ones ... or, if we are, take that as a warning sign that something needs to change - the proper tool needs to be found - because you love ne another, you are good people, and you BOTH desreve the work, the respect, and time born of the love and committment.

For teh young lady in question here, it really comes down to a question of venting vs seeking advice. There is nothing wrong with being even tremendously frustrated, but your husband is your husband - you love him. He loves you. You BOTH desereve the utmost respect of one another. You BOTH deserve the respect of allowing the venting and anger to be jettisoned in a diorection AWAY from one another.

Perphaps easier said than done ... that though is why we seek advice ;-)

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Gree.... I think you need to read the OP's original post. Do a quick search first. The calendar thing isnt just a rant, more of a continuation of the OP's struggle. That may help you understand the big picture.

In the chance that you have already read that post, I have nothing for you.

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THere is an alternative methodology - asking clarifying questions. Speculation may still be necessary, but should be limited to the extent possible. If not? We risk creating versions of the story that are totally removed from the actal situation ... and then what we really get is the advisers 'issues' with relationships rather than advice.

Indeed... busfeliz has posted 18 times on the situation (including this thread http://www.lds.net/forums/marriage-relationship-advice/52248-feeling-betrayed.html)

Where she gives details and responses to questions. She did all this before I offered my first piece of advice. So questions were asked and answered... Now you may be of the opinion that I did not wait long enough nor get enough information, but I would point out that it is exactly the same amount of information you are working from (assuming you read the first thread which was pretty much over and done with before you starting actively posting, otherwise you have less then I do)

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Gree.... I think you need to read the OP's original post. Do a quick search first. The calendar thing isnt just a rant, more of a continuation of the OP's struggle. That may help you understand the big picture.

In the chance that you have already read that post, I have nothing for you.

Well, thank you for providing an opportunity to prove the point. Not only did I read the OP, I read most of teh responses before jumping in.

All the adice I gave is in line with professional counseling advice on just these issues - and if they are percieved as a rant?

I go back to the issue of whether this is about gfiving advice or whether this is about 'being right'?

Only one of these things will help a relationship.

I also have personal experience here, my now ex-wife was extremely abusive, and she utilized just this tactic, even after professional counselors admonished her tro stop. She too like dto go with friends and saythings like, "He raised his voice to me ... when I was just trying to talk."

Left unsaid was her swearing, being caught in one lie after another, string of false and degrading accusations, and physical violence. Now, what advice did her 'friends' give her about a husband who is raising his voice in conversation?

Was the advice, devoid of context, the correct advice? Or, if known that one was behaving irrationally, would the advice have been different?

Again, I watched as members of this forum invited a total violation of trust, which is to surrender any notion of privacy by surrendering passwords, etc. Why not instead, invite the husband to give his two cents on this forum instead?

Its a marriage, and the issues brought forth here are not marriage ending issues, they are normal turmoil of a young couple who is struggling far more with communication than they are with ... calendars.

Again, I strongly caution, both from experience and from professional advice, to beware of issuing advice as a freind. Beware that there is not a one sized fits all solution and that te issues will be solved by the couple ... not us.

If that is considerd a rant to you? What exactly do you think professional marriage cunseling is about? They too will tell us when we are on the right track, and those who truly care about us will tell us what we need to here ... not what we want to hear.

There are two people in that marriage.

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I also have personal experience here, my now ex-wife was extremely abusive, and she utilized just this tactic, even after professional counselors admonished her tro stop. She too like dto go with friends and saythings like, "He raised his voice to me ... when I was just trying to talk."

Congrats you just used your personal experience to offer advice to people you know very little about and can't possibly know the whole story... Its kind funny that you think it ok for you to do but not anyone else.

Again, I watched as members of this forum invited a total violation of trust, which is to surrender any notion of privacy by surrendering passwords, etc. Why not instead, invite the husband to give his two cents on this forum instead?

Running under the 'assumption' that the OP is being more or less honest with us. Then she had told us that the trust between her and her husband is already broken, doubts are already planted.

You might not like the idea... But many here have marriages that are running very well under the idea of no privacy or secrets from your spouse. Why?? because it builds trust by allowing doubts, whenever they might happen, to be smashed by facts (or vindicated by facts if there is an issue).

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Congrats you just used your personal experience to offer advice to people you know very little about and can't possibly know the whole story... Its kind funny that you think it ok for you to do but not anyone else.In other words, speculation, as I just admonished is bad? Go figure. I did, for the record us it to illustrate a point about being friends rather than objective advisors ... as in, we do not know, so beware of giving advice without full context - but that is speculative????

Running under the 'assumption' that the OP is being more or less honest with us. Then she had told us that the trust between her and her husband is already broken, doubts are already planted.

You might not like the idea... But many here have marriages that are running very well under the idea of no privacy or secrets from your spouse. Why?? because it builds trust by allowing doubts, whenever they might happen, to be smashed by facts (or vindicated by facts if there is an issue).

I other words, you are now attack 'me'.

I used a personal experience to highlight why its its bad to give advice as friends. Because we don't have a full knowledge of contextm and are indeed not seeking input from HALF the problem set here.

Not only have I seen this distructive tendancy in many relationships, watched it cover up serious abuse (indeed enable it), and it is a practice that is univerally considered unheathy by relationship experts.

You feel that is not relevant?

And indeed, there are many relationship that are built on trust and do not require one to suddenly change who and what they are to make a relationship work or to build trust.

Your opinion is an idea, and for SOME couples it works. For others, it does not.

Which goes right back to the initial guidance I gave - learn about one another.

Do some analysis.

Take the five love languages, take a personality test, discover what your learning style is and you may soon disciver that people, being wildly different, are not covered by a one sized fits all solution - and we should look for solutions that will work rather than force a particular solution set onto the couple.

Of course, declaring such advice to be rant is apparently far more helpful advice to young couple here?

Its a relationship, not a rubber stamp - and its a solution SET that will vary from couple to couple as opposed to a A SOLUTION. THey are people. They have personalities. They have communication styles.

Most importantly, based BOTH on experience and PROFESSIONAL advice, is to avoid falling into the 'best friend' advisor.

Indeed, OBJECTIVE advice is not about taking sides - it about helping people devlope the proper solution set for THEIR marriage. I daresay that not all marriages run on the same compromises and solutions.

Indeed, if a woman came to this forum stating that she felt oppressed by her husband who was constantly demanding to know where she was, what she was doing, and whom she was talking to, feeling aboslutely oppressed ... I doubt very seriously that we would consider the husband's actions to be in line with how a good husband should act. I'll bet, being speculation is fine, the husband's narrative probably sounds something like that.

The decision to share data and have complete openness is one that is arrived at over time and ACCEPTED by both parties, not forced under 'threat' from one spiouse onto another. It's not a quid pr quo because, as I have seen in this thread, it'll ... out the husband. Are we attempting to 'out' the husband? Shame him into compliance? Is that his learning style? Or are we pushing him further into a hole when, by the wives own admission here he is already feeling controlled? Add more control measures then? :eek:

If the marriage is frustrated right now, the husband needs a honest sounding board giving him objective advice as well ... including the opportunity to vent his frustration in a manner that does not damage his spouse. Your solution is an end state, not an immediate solution to the problem.

Again, I ask the question, is the solution aimed at being right? Or at being happy? At making the marriage work.

THe problem set as I see it is a woman who feel disrespected and is losing trust in her husband, and a husband who feels like nothing he does is right.

Indeed, just by bringing in an admonition to avoid taking sides ... I am being attacked - acussed of ranting? Telling someone to burn a Calendar to make a point, is, according to the church, sage and wise marriage advice?

My advice, begins and ends the same: Take some time. Take soem deep breaths, and do some analysis. Learn about yourselves, take the love language analysis, take a personality test, take a analysis of your learning styles ... then shar ethe results.

The FIRST conversation therafter should be about what you learned about one another. It should end in an apology for those things where you inadvertantly were stepping on one another.

Then move forward.

But don't burn a Calendar. Find ways to support each other, to love each other ... and critically important, to FORGIVE one another.

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No, if my husband were chatting up women on FB, having private conversations with women, taking "boudoir" photos of them (without my knowledge), and arranging for cheerleaders to stop by the house when he knows I'm not planning on being home, the burning calendar would be the least of his worries.

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Let me give you a male perspective: Your husband is really over the line. It really seems from what you have posted and not hearing his side that he is one step away from porn and/or cheating and if he want to grow up and be married he needs to put away his childish ways.

texting other women? unless she is his: Mom, Sister or Boss, that would be off limits except in a real limited way such as: 'Sister So and So can we come Home Teach this Sunday at 4?'

Calendar --hmmm, if that was the only thing he was doing I'd probably say leave him alone, BUT its not the only thing he is doing - so it goes.

Photographing women in boudoir type photo's -- NO!

Facebook: my opinion of Facebook is very low to begin with, I have little use for it but know some people keep in touch that way, as long as everything was open so the world could see it, then I guess.

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busfeliz, counseling is good. Maybe it'll help him understand there's a gap between who he says he is, and who he acts like he is.

But more importantly, maybe it'll help you understand that you can't make him do or be something he doesn't want to do or be. That can be heartbreaking, but unfortunately that's how it works.

I couldn't agree more with Loudmouth.

Unless you go to counseling, I don't see anything changing. You are going to accuse him of inappropriate relationships, and he is going to accuse you of being controling, and neither of you wants to change.

Don't misunderstand me, I agree that what you have described of your husbands behavior is inappropriate, but as someone else said, we are only getting on side of the story here. A marriage counselor could hear both sides and help you both. He could tell your husband that you are being reasonable, and he could tell you whatever it is you need to hear. . .

Telling your husband that a bunch of strangers on the internet agree with you is hardly going to help. If you are both serious about having a better marriage, get counseling.

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No, if my husband were chatting up women on FB, having private conversations with women, taking "boudoir" photos of them (without my knowledge), and arranging for cheerleaders to stop by the house when he knows I'm not planning on being home, the burning calendar would be the least of his worries.

I other words, you do not trust your husband. Believe me I understand.

The question is about finding a way to rebuild that trust between the two of you. Him surrending everything may find some issues - but it may push hm further into a rat hole as well. (proverbially speaking at any rate).

Again, I do not know your husband. He may be fine with it? I can say, as a man, that if such a request came to me I would be reluctant, but not because I was doing anything, but because when there are problems I both vent and seek advise, and sort though the good and bad advice, to try and ensure the 'anger and frustration' stay away from my spouse.

In this case, I srongly recommend that there be some analysis. We all have varying levels of comfort regarding privacy, but total trust and transparancy is an end state in th trust process ... its earnd and agreed.

I will also say this. I understand your frustration, your frustration is entirely legitimate. You are indeed reaching out, but I ask you in all seriousness, are you looking to be right ... to be 'proved right' by a solution ... or to find a working relationship that restores the affection and trust of your husband.

Without knowing you or him, my best advice is to learn about one another. Take those tests and share the results with one another.

Don't burn the Calendar though ... there are far less demonstrative ways of removing a Calendar ... like simply throwing it in the trash.

And please, I offer this only as a personal insight because of what I do. When information is put before me, I see the data. I am very good at finding holes in data, in timelines, and synchronizing those things. I am absolutely terrible about finding ancillary, or what I would term ancillary issues, like formating, font, presentation, etc.

What you see very clearly, your husband may not. He may be oblivious to it entirely. If that is the case, then it becomes a learning experience to 'train' him as you will. And the best way to do that is to find out HOW he learns, and help him along that learning path.

Again, I understand your frustration and it is totally and completely valid. BUt your husband married you not to drive you nuts, he married you because he loves you. He loves you more than any other woman on the face of the earth, and that should be the basis of building trust. How you do that? Look for the way that works.

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I other words, you are now attack 'me'.

You offered your advice to the one who asked for it and that was and is fine. But that wasn't enough. You then decided to advise other people in the thread an how they were handling it wrong. This is fine too really...

But when you call people out for what you think are their short comings you really don't have a leg to stand on when they return the favor.

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Glad we all got that out of our system. Does everyone feel better? The great thing about this forum is that we all get our own opinions, whether they come from professional advice or not. The bad thing is that we have to listen to others opinions. Even if they seem rude.

Back to the OP.

...Am I out of line to ask him to throw it away?

NO. From what you have told us. What you have talked about with him has been pretty clear. If he would like to support the local school, he can make a donation without receiving the calendar

...What do healthy, safe relationships with people of the opposite sex look like? Because my husband thinks I am being super controlling.

Maybe you are being super controlling. That is hard for anyone but you to say. From what you have told us... if his answers are "you didnt tell me I couldnt text women" or "You never said I couldnt buy cheerleader calendars" then it seems that he would rather sneak behind your back until caught instead of just talking to you.

safe relationships with people of the opposite sex are determined by you and your husband. But in my opinion, the things you have described are not healthy.

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You offered your advice to the one who asked for it and that was and is fine. But that wasn't enough. You then decided to advise other people in the thread an how they were handling it wrong. This is fine too really...

But when you call people out for what you think are their short comings you really don't have a leg to stand on when they return the favor.

In a lesson for the OP, is it working out well to first disagree with the IDE that speculation is unhelpful to speculate, it's necessary, then find fault with speculation and providing a personal illustration to demonstrate a professional position ...

Well, it all we care About is being right ... That does tend to happen does it not. Is E giving you advice or fighting me, and is our communication getting better or worse? Hence, the admonition, now perfectly demonstrated to avoid being right.

Now for E, if attempting to clarify something offended you, I apologize, it certainly isn't my intent. You will also notice that I, relationship experts, and indeed the church all recommend the ability to say the same thing.

I believe that E is wrong, and I am right, yet she is clearly upset at me. Apologizing to her cost me nothing. Best advice I every got from a member on relationships.

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In a lesson for the OP, is it working out well to first disagree with the IDE that speculation is unhelpful to speculate, it's necessary, then find fault with speculation and providing a personal illustration to demonstrate a professional position ...

You were the one called people out for speculation. I simply pointed out that we are all doing so. Then I held you to the standard you tried to apply.

I believe that E is wrong, and I am right, yet she is clearly upset at me. Apologizing to her cost me nothing. Best advice I every got from a member on relationships.

Wow you think I am a she... I have no problem with you thinking I am wrong. I do have a problem with you acting like you are taking the high road and are somehow better qualified then someone else to advise people. This compounds when you clearly can't meet the standard you are using to judge others by.

And now I think I have been too much a part of derailing this thread so I am stepping out of it

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I other words, you do not trust your husband. Believe me I understand.

The question is about finding a way to rebuild that trust between the two of you. Him surrending everything may find some issues - but it may push hm further into a rat hole as well. (proverbially speaking at any rate).

Again, I do not know your husband. He may be fine with it? I can say, as a man, that if such a request came to me I would be reluctant, but not because I was doing anything, but because when there are problems I both vent and seek advise, and sort though the good and bad advice, to try and ensure the 'anger and frustration' stay away from my spouse.

In this case, I srongly recommend that there be some analysis. We all have varying levels of comfort regarding privacy, but total trust and transparancy is an end state in th trust process ... its earnd and agreed.

I will also say this. I understand your frustration, your frustration is entirely legitimate. You are indeed reaching out, but I ask you in all seriousness, are you looking to be right ... to be 'proved right' by a solution ... or to find a working relationship that restores the affection and trust of your husband.

Without knowing you or him, my best advice is to learn about one another. Take those tests and share the results with one another.

Don't burn the Calendar though ... there are far less demonstrative ways of removing a Calendar ... like simply throwing it in the trash.

And please, I offer this only as a personal insight because of what I do. When information is put before me, I see the data. I am very good at finding holes in data, in timelines, and synchronizing those things. I am absolutely terrible about finding ancillary, or what I would term ancillary issues, like formating, font, presentation, etc.

What you see very clearly, your husband may not. He may be oblivious to it entirely. If that is the case, then it becomes a learning experience to 'train' him as you will. And the best way to do that is to find out HOW he learns, and help him along that learning path.

Again, I understand your frustration and it is totally and completely valid. BUt your husband married you not to drive you nuts, he married you because he loves you. He loves you more than any other woman on the face of the earth, and that should be the basis of building trust. How you do that? Look for the way that works.

Did I say I don't trust my husband? No. If my husband were to engage in behavior like what I described above, I would not deal with it nicely. I do not have to compromise when it comes to expecting 100% fidelity and keeping our home free of immoral material, which would include scantily clad cheerleader calendars.

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Did I say I don't trust my husband? No. If my husband were to engage in behavior like what I described above, I would not deal with it nicely. I do not have to compromise when it comes to expecting 100% fidelity and keeping our home free of immoral material, which would include scantily clad cheerleader calendars.

So, your husband has to be perfect? He has no room to commit error, indeed the entire concept of atonement and forgioveness is bereft in your marriage? You of course would be willing to sign up for the same standard in reverse? That you will be perfect before both God and your husband's expectations? SHould you fall short, rather than expect forgiveness you expect righteous wrath and condemnation?

Again, to make the point, there is a hug difference between 'being right' and needing to be acknowleedged as right.

If theCalendar boters you so much, simply throw it away. That's it, be done with it. Your husband will most likely forgive you and move on.

But, in the spirit of forgiveness, you must also forgive. THe instance that is perhaps most clearly indicative of you legitimate frustration is the photo with the other woman. There is no doubt, in an objective sense (regarless of your interpretation) that this was going to far. Your husband messed up. He was, as you say, stupid.

He also, basedon what I read here, apologized, and was open an honest about the fact that he talked to her - attempting to be transparent and respectful of your wishes on the matter. There has evidentally been no forgiveness - for the issue continuesto come up in a litany of 'stupid' actions your husband has done - a list that continues to mount not matter what he does.

Tell me, how does he get out from under that list of condmenation? How do we, as individuals get out from under that list in our relationship with Jesus Christ? THrough atonement, grace, and forgiveness.

Luke is very clear, that we must forgive those who repent, and I dare say that those of us that it should be easiest to apply this principle to are the ones we love the most. I urge you to apply this aspect to the 'stupid' things your husband has done.

I urge you strongly to take a pause and take those tests. I will wager that you will discover, however inadvertantly, that there were things you were doing hat were just as annoying to your husband as his have been to you. You have to find a way to let go of old hurts and forge a path, together, to equilibirum.

There are a couple of alternatives to this process:

Being miserable with one another as the communication process breaks down, and you avoid one another.

Divorce. The two of you can forsake the commitment to one another you made before God, forget the love you had for each other that lead you to marriage, and just call it quits.

THat is really the crux of the issue: do you want to 'be right' or do you want your marriage to work?

When I see things like, "I should not have to compromise!", well, in a relationship that involves two people ... yes, you do. Sometimes, even when you are right. Sometimes, you must choose forgiveness over righteousness.

God's perfect love does this for us over and over and over again. If your husband of all people does not deserve this from you, who does?

Your husband can be brought to your standards, but learning is sometimes a gradula process, and, as I mention earlier, if you are not speaking his learning style, then hisprocess of attempt8ing to close the gap is going to be a frustrating for him as it is for you.

Again, I strongly urge you to take that self analysis and share the results with one another. Take the ananlysis to a professional counselor, and help close the gap ... rather than widen it.

Many people will tell you that you are right, and have indeed done so on this thread. Let that be enough. Now, its your marriage that needs to 'be right'.

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Again: My husband didn't buy a cheerleading calendar.

If he he were doing the things the OP's husband has done, my respect for him would plummet and it would be very difficult for me to trust him ever again. Forgiveness and trust are two different things.

I wouldn't try to understand his perspective. The perspective of an endowed man justifying inappropriate relationships, taking pictures of scantily clad women, buying calendars of scantily clad women, etc. is total crap and I wouldn't question for a second my reaction to it. I would come down on him hard.

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Again: My husband didn't buy a cheerleading calendar.

If he he were doing the things the OP's husband has done, my respect for him would plummet and it would be very difficult for me to trust him ever again. Forgiveness and trust are two different things.

I wouldn't try to understand his perspective. The perspective of an endowed man justifying inappropriate relationships, taking pictures of scantily clad women, buying calendars of scantily clad women, etc. is total crap and I wouldn't question for a second my reaction to it. I would come down on him hard.

And this is why I joined the thread wit the admonition to avoid speculation. I say this plainly, I have pruchased things for one reason, and found out later that they had things in them that were 'inappropriate'. In the trash they go. Sometimes we just do not see them.

If its a local football team's calendar ... well, there have been cheerleaders at every football game I have ever been at, from high school on up. In fact, from the perspective outsid ethe church, those cheerleaders are in the Calendar for reasons of equity - as in teh cheerleaders are part of the team - and the parents of daughters get the acknowledgement that their daughters are not subordinate to the football players. Yet I cannot, as I sit here rememer not a one of those cheerleaders. They simply were not impotant to me ... and thus I pay them no mind.

When someone points out that this is there ... it is a surprise. A mistake. Not an on purpose to piss off my wife.

And the way to do that is not by burning it my face. Not my screaming at me. Not by questioing my preisthood (that is a matter for God and my worthiness) ... and we ALL make mistakes - even those who hold the priesthood.

If we are stuck on the inadvertant mistakes ... which ones are we going to forgive? The Calendar is not that big of deal. Burning it to throw a 'mistake' in your spouses face?

Tell me, if you bought a blouse that exposed your garmets inadventantly, would you want your husband to burn the blouse in front of you and question your worthiness before God?

Why would we give that advice to a woman as a valid method of correcting her husband when he is wrong? Gentleness, patience ... Love. These are the centers of our relationship with Christ, and a daresay that these principles apply to our spouses.

Edited by gree0232
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And this is why I joined the thread wit the admonition to avoid speculation. I say this plainly, I have pruchased things for one reason, and found out later that they had things in them that were 'inappropriate'. In the trash they go. Sometimes we just do not see them.

If its a local football team's calendar ... well, there have been cheerleaders at every football game I have ever been at, from high school on up. In fact, from the perspective outsid ethe church, those cheerleaders are in the Calendar for reasons of equity - as in teh cheerleaders are part of the team - and the parents of daughters get the acknowledgement that their daughters are not subordinate to the football players. Yet I cannot, as I sit here rememer not a one of those cheerleaders. They simply were not impotant to me ... and thus I pay them no mind.

When someone points out that this is there ... it is a surprise. A mistake. Not an on purpose to piss off my wife.

And the way to do that is not by burning it my face. Not my screaming at me. Not by questioing my preisthood (that is a matter for God and my worthiness) ... and we ALL make mistakes - even those who hold the priesthood.

If we are stuck on the inadvertant mistakes ... which ones are we going to forgive? The Calendar is not that big of deal. Burning it to throw a 'mistake' in your spouses face?

Tell me, if you bought a blouse that exposed your garmets inadventantly, would you want your husband to burn the blouse in front of you and question your worthiness before God?

Why would we give that advice to a woman as a valid method of correcting her husband when he is wrong? Gentleness, patience ... Love. These are the centers of our relationship with Christ, and a daresay that these principles apply to our spouses.

The thing is, he got that calender delivered by a Cheerleader...while his wife wasn't home. That upset her. She TOLD him about it. He threw a fit and tore it up in front of her and next thing you know, he went and got another one. It was in his truck. No speculation there, he didn't care about her feelings. He wanted that Calender. He KNEW what was in it.

This burning the Calendar wasn't meant to be taken serious. It was a joke that you've taken too far. For the record, I've NEVER EVER been to a LDS home where I've seen scantily clad women hanging on a wall some where. Most LDS men that I've ever known has more respect for the common woman than to treat them like objects as well as respecting their wife's feelings. Maybe I'm being naive or maybe I haven't been out in the world enough to see how most LDS men and women are but from the one's I'm around and seen, do their best to act in a Christ like manner. Wholesome and respectful. One that doesn't converse with the opposite sex on a continuous basis where the spouse can't see.

Setting the calendar business aside, there's the issue of him texting and interacting with women behind her back. That's a no no. Were taught that in the Church. If her husband wasn't LDS and didn't share our concern about "standards" it might be a different argument. But in my opinion for what it's worth, he's not dumb. He knows what he's doing. If he truly loved his wife, these other women, scantily clad and all, wouldn't be part of the problem. He can't have his cake and eat it too. All in all, it's not a error. It's an on going ordeal for the OP. Most married men know this is not the normal conduct especially of an LDS man.

As for MorningStar,

I wouldn't try to understand his perspective. The perspective of an endowed man justifying inappropriate relationships, taking pictures of scantily clad women, buying calendars of scantily clad women, etc. is total crap and I wouldn't question for a second my reaction to it. I would come down on him hard.

I'm right there with you.

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The thing is, he got that calender delivered by a Cheerleader...while his wife wasn't home. That upset her. She TOLD him about it. He threw a fit and tore it up in front of her and next thing you know, he went and got another one. It was in his truck. No speculation there, he didn't care about her feelings. He wanted that Calender. He KNEW what was in it.

This burning the Calendar wasn't meant to be taken serious. It was a joke that you've taken too far. For the record, I've NEVER EVER been to a LDS home where I've seen scantily clad women hanging on a wall some where. Most LDS men that I've ever known has more respect for the common woman than to treat them like objects as well as respecting their wife's feelings. Maybe I'm being naive or maybe I haven't been out in the world enough to see how most LDS men and women are but from the one's I'm around and seen, do their best to act in a Christ like manner. Wholesome and respectful. One that doesn't converse with the opposite sex on a continuous basis where the spouse can't see.

Setting the calendar business aside, there's the issue of him texting and interacting with women behind her back. That's a no no. Were taught that in the Church. If her husband wasn't LDS and didn't share our concern about "standards" it might be a different argument. But in my opinion for what it's worth, he's not dumb. He knows what he's doing. If he truly loved his wife, these other women, scantily clad and all, wouldn't be part of the problem. He can't have his cake and eat it too. All in all, it's not a error. It's an on going ordeal for the OP. Most married men know this is not the normal conduct especially of an LDS man.

As for MorningStar,

I'm right there with you.

And there is the way to go about getting around the issue.

Since speculation both is and is not acceptable ... trying to figure that out. Why do you think the husband is making such a big deal out of the Calendar? We do know that he is feeling 'controlled' correct?

What we don't have any idea about is what he said as he tore it up? Perhaps scantily clad women in a Calendar that is mostly football players, and underage at that if it is indeed a high school football Calendar ... I don't think its a stretch to imagine that the husband thinks a bunch of sixteen year old girls in a picture, wearing cheerleader outfits, is much of a sexual issue for him at all.

If the real issue is that he is indeed having sexual fantasies about 16 year old cheerleaders, a do believe that something other than 'advice' is in order for a potentially criminal situation.

Scripturally, the Calendar may be frowned upon, but its a high school football Calendar - its not a church product and it does not, therefore, reflect the church's position on modesty ... nor is it a position we can force the school to adopt ... that long patience and suffering, leading by example, etc. comes back again.

Again, we are turning a Calendar into a huge issue, and the more I learn about this, the more I once again see these issues as symptomatic of a systemic breakdown in communication. A husband who rips something up in front of his wife? Buys another Calendar anyway?

He is in open rebellion.

The question now is what to do about it.

If a husband is in OPEN REBELLION, woudl burning the Calendar help? No.

Would demanding that he share all his passwords and completely give up any semblance of privacy help? No.

Would lecturing him about what a terrible priest holder he is help? No.

All of those things are likely to make a man in open rebellion fight that much harder, and the goal isn't to break him -- its to call him to repentance and rehabilitation. With that in mind ...

Would a potential breather help? One in which the couple sit down and analyze themselves and each other? Perhaps. I may not.

I have no doubt that the husband is venting to his friends. Would perhaps having the wife reach out to one of them help? In the spirit of, "Look, everything I do lately seems to send him into orbit. What can I do differently?"

The thing is, I fully support the standards that you espouse, but I also realize that the best way to have a standard 'enforced' is through conviction. The standards become learned and strong when we exercise our agency and choose them of our own free will.

That is not a process of force or browbeating, it is one of patience, effort, duration, and example. It is not one that the wife here has to do by herself.

Two final points:

#1 - This man is probably not dumb, and given the demonstrative ripping up of the Calendar, its a fair bet that the 'standards' here are part of the larger problem. The couple if going to have to figure out how to compromise or correct to return to equilibrium. I doubt very seriously that if the husband were to throw away pictures of the girls that the marriage would be fully healed ... a supposition that is further strengthened with the greater contextual knowledge of the situation.

Advice should be less about 'right' and more about moving beyond the problem set SUCCESSFULLY.

#2 - Sometimes marriages fail. I speak from an unfortunately broad experience that one of the most profound pieces of guilt that a person can feel is to abandon a marriage without having tried everything humanly possible to salvage the marriage.

That could include a healthy dose of confronting the grass is greener scenario with the husband - invite him to talk to few of single men, especially recent converts, about what the single scene is like out there. I believe he will realize quite quickly that relationships with women outside the gospel involve issues of far more consequence that Calendars, and the further away those women are from the church ... the more intractable and consequential those 'issues' tend to be.

If he is drifting because he is feeling oppressed ... a little education may help him realize that he is far luckier and blessed than he imagines ... may help him understand how incredibly foolish he is being to disrespect his wife ... and may lead him to conclude himself that he is 'being stupid' and produce the required repentance.

Please take it from an infantryman, who just spend ten years running trying to 'force' people to do what we tell them to do - force and castigation are really about the worst ways of bringing about compliance or altering perceptions.

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Here is the problem statement:

Everything else he does is perfectly safe and normal to him and I am over reacting. So I know he will just hurt me again because he doesn't get it, he doesn't see anything wrong, that's why he does them.

Advice here is about how to overcome that problem set and difference in values.

Education is key - and learning how your husband learns will help you, indeed the wider community, show him the error of his ways in a way that he will understand.

Prioritize. Pick the issues where you think you ar elikely to make headway and understanding FIRST, even if there are more pressing issues. As he begins to see the error of his choices in small things ... well, planes begin as sheet metal and bolts ... and as he begins to connect the proverbial dots ... the bigger issues become smaller issues for him to overcome.

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