Receiving the Second Comforter-Personal Visit From Christ?

[Jason_J]

So I've owned Denver Snuffer's book "The Second Comforter-Conversing With the Lord Through the Veil" for some time now, however I'm only just starting to read it (still in the overview). For those that don't know, here is an excerpt from the book that explains what it's about:

"The title is not misleading. This book is about receiving an audience with Christ, as He promised. He is the promised Second Comforter and this book is about the process of having a personal visit from Him."

Now, I'm sure that such a concept is one that would be attractive to many. Who wouldn't want a personal visit from Jesus Christ our Savior in this life? Such a special interaction with the Divine, following many examples in the scriptures and recounted throughout the Restoration, would surely be a life-changing experience. But the skeptic in me also questions this.

What are your thoughts on this? From what I'm aware, Denver Snuffer is a controversial author. However ignoring him specifically, what about this concept of receiving the Second Comforter, a personal visit from the Lord, in this life? Has anyone read this book? It seems that while this concept isn't really taught in church (I've never heard it, though I've only been a member for 2 years), it is something that has been taught, such as in Bruce McConkie's "The Ten Blessings of the Priesthood":

" Blessing ten: We have the power—and it is our privilege—so to live, that becoming pure in heart, we shall see the face of God while we yet dwell as mortals in a world of sin and sorrow.

This is the crowning blessing of mortality. It is offered by that God who is no respecter of persons to all the faithful in his kingdom.

“Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am.” (D&C 93:1.)

“And again, verily I say unto you that it is your privilege, and a promise I give unto you that have been ordained unto this ministry”—he is speaking now to those who hold the Melchizedek Priesthood—“that inasmuch as you strip yourselves from jealousies and fears, and humble yourselves before me, for ye are not sufficiently humble, the veil shall be rent and you shall see me and know that I am—not with the carnal neither natural mind, but with the spiritual.

“For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God.

“Neither can any natural man abide the presence of God, neither after the carnal mind.

“Ye are not able to abide the presence of God now, neither the ministering of angels; wherefore, continue in patience until ye are perfected.” (D&C 67:10–13.)"

[applepansy]

There have been discussion about Denver Snuffer, his books, website, etc. If you do a search of the forums you'll find the threads and get a pretty good idea of how most of us feel one way or another.

As for me, I won't read his books because he places himself above the Prophet.

[Dravin]

One of the past threads Applepansy is referencing: http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/44708-denver-snuffer.html

[skalenfehl]

I have read his book among others that he has written, including books from John Pontius. I have absolutely no doubt that both brothers have received their calling and election and the Second Comforter just as Nephi and many other prophets in the Bible and Book of Mormon have declared is possible to the saints in their times. This is the entire point and purpose of the gospel of Jesus Christ in its fullness. This is what Moses tried offering the Israelites, who refused and reviled Moses. So the Lord took Moses away just as Joseph Smith was taken away from the early saints of the restoration. Receiving these great gifts is what removes us individually from the condemnation that we have collectively been placed under since Joseph Smiths day (for not only not saying but doing what is in the New Covenant). Doctrine and Covenants 84:54-57

[temarkon]

I don't know about that specific author but per the Churches section on Comforter this is an actual visitation.

[skalenfehl]

As for me, I won't read his books because he places himself above the Prophet.

I respect your decision, but I have yet to read anywhere that he has made such a declaration. He is no more above President Monson than Samuel the Lamanite was above Nephi. I am not here to defend him either. He can speak for himself. Let every latter-day Saint choose for himself. Denver takes everything that Moses, Isaiah, Nephi, Joseph Smith and our Savior (to name a few) taught and put them all together to shed light on doctrine, which is simply ignored because it is outside of most everyone's paradigm or at least outside the scope of the first principles and ordinances of the gospel. But there are many more. And only one dispensational prophet was able to successfully teach his people who did NOT reject his message. His name was Enoch.

Edited April 25, 2013 by skalenfehl

[Jason_J]

There have been discussion about Denver Snuffer, his books, website, etc. If you do a search of the forums you'll find the threads and get a pretty good idea of how most of us feel one way or another.

As for me, I won't read his books because he places himself above the Prophet.

Oh ok, that's interesting, I'll check out the previous threads, thanks.

Do you have any comment on the concept of receiving the Second Comforter, a personal visit from Christ in this life? This thread isn't necessarily about Denver Snuffer (I only mention him because his book brought this concept to my attention), as it's more about that concept (I mentioned Bruce McConkie's General Conference talk on the 10 Blessings of the Priesthood in the hope that we wouldn't necessarily discuss Snuffer personally).

[skalenfehl]

I don't know about that specific author but per the Churches section on Comforter this is an actual visitation.

That is correct. You see, the entire temple experience (initiatory through endowment) is for the exact purpose of preparing us for the real thing; a real veil, a real parting of the veil. The endowment is only symbolic and a similitude of the real thing. It is not a key to hang up on a wall. It is meant to unlock a real door. Seek and ye shall find. Ask and it shall be given. Knock and it shall be opened. We knock at the veil.

[estradling75]

Oh ok, that's interesting, I'll check out the previous threads, thanks.

Do you have any comment on the concept of receiving the Second Comforter, a personal visit from Christ in this life? This thread isn't necessarily about Denver Snuffer (I only mention him because his book brought this concept to my attention), as it's more about that concept (I mentioned Bruce McConkie's General Conference talk on the 10 Blessings of the Priesthood in the hope that we wouldn't necessarily discuss Snuffer personally).

The concept is there... But the whole idea is about it being a 'personal.' The Church is set up to give you the tools and encourage you to use them. But they can't make you do so.

The Church teaches a person to pray, study the scriptures, obey the commandments and repent of their short comings. As well as provides the ordinances. As a person does this the Lord will then show them more that they need to do.

[Anddenex]

Here in this scripture lies your answer:

Moses 6: 60,

60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

[Just_A_Guy]

He is no more above President Monson than Samuel the Lamanite was above Nephi. I am not here to defend him either.

Denver Snuffer is no Samuel the Lamanite, either; and quite honestly it triggers little alarm bells for me that his readers would even make such a comparison. People managed to get their calling and elections made sure, and even (ulp!) to get the temple ordinances associated with that blessing, long before Denver Snuffer signed his first book deal.

As to the underlying topic: I guess the question I keep asking myself is, "what would I do with a visit from the Savior, if I had one?" At this stage in my spiritual journey I have a hard enough time conforming to the first principles and ordinances. To my detriment, if the Savior offered what Snuffer offers at this point in time then I - like Peter of old - would be forced to say "depart from me, O Lord, for I am a sinful man."

Seems to me that the blessing we ought to be seeking in this life (in the short term, anyways) isn't the Second Comforter -- Jesus is not an acrobat who puts on shows for those willing to pay the price of admission. Rather, the blessing we should be seeking is, as Peter himself taught, to make our calling and election sure. If I can get myself to that point, I trust that in time the Savior will reveal Himself to me in whatever way He deems appropriate.

The point isn't to make a personal visitation happen. The point is to be living in such a way that we have become the kind of people to whom it could happen.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[skalenfehl]

I find it interesting that the prophets of the BoM referred to the veil as the "veil of unbelief." Very apt. But one must study out for himself why.

[skalenfehl]

The point isn't to make a personal visitation happen. The point is to be living in such a way that we have become the kind of people to whom it could happen.

The point is to live in such a way that it WILL.

Interesting that you mention Peter.

2 Peter 1:10

[Vort]

The best thing about Denver Snuffer is that he takes very literally some teachings that many outside the Church discount altogether and that some inside the Church seek to make figurative somehow. For example, can we see Christ and stand in his presence while in this mortal state? Yes, we most certainly can, though most of us will not (and nor will we be condemned for not having done so). This is not a sweet dream or a holy lie, it is reality.

But for my taste, Snuffer seems altogether too taken with his own brilliance and spiritual insight (as he considers it). Calling Church leaders to repentance, whether done openly or veiled, is outside our stewardship, and is skating dangerously close to the line of apostasy if not well past it.

[Just_A_Guy]

The point is to live in such a way that it WILL.

Interesting that you mention Peter.

2 Peter 1:10

Not "interesting" at all; that's the scripture I had in mind when I wrote it.

Peter doesn't urge us to satisfy our desires for a sign by somehow binding Jesus into appearing to us personally. He urges us to make our calling and elections sure.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[skalenfehl]

I'm not as concerned about the messenger as I am the message. It is my testimony of the absolute truth contained in such books as The Second Comforter, Following the Light of Christ Back into His Presence, Come Let Us Adore Him, The Triumph of Zion, etc, which all shed light on the plain truths taught by Enoch, Isaiah, Nephi, Abinadi, Alma, Mormon, Moroni, Peter and many more prophets through our day.

[Just_A_Guy]

I'm not as concerned about the messenger as I am the message. It is my testimony of the absolute truth contained in such books as The Second Comforter, Following the Light of Christ Back into His Presence, Come Let Us Adore Him, The Triumph of Zion, etc, which all shed light on the plain truths taught by Enoch, Isaiah, Nephi, Abinadi, Alma, Mormon, Moroni, Peter and many more prophets through our day.

Somehow I doubt that Snuffer has legions of fans going ga-ga for him merely because of his encouraging people to live by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God, or his encouragement of complete fealty to the Lord's kingdom and its duly appointed stewards.

[Vort]

I'm not as concerned about the messenger as I am the message.

I do not believe the two are cleanly separable.

[skalenfehl]

Not "interesting" at all; that's the scripture I had in mind when I wrote it.

Peter doesn't urge us to satisfy our desires for a sign by somehow binding Jesus into appearing to us personally. He urges us to make our calling and elections sure.

It is absolutely not about seeking a sign. Signs already follow those who believe (miracles, wonders, ministering of angels, etc). We are taught this in Moroni ch. 7. It is exactly about the point of the allegory of the tame and wild olive trees and the work and glory of our Savior. It is about entering into His rest in THIS life, "from THIS TIME henceforth until (we) shall rest with Him in heaven". Again, only Enoch's people succeeded where everyone else, because of unbelief have fallen short. Anyway, it is not my intention to be argumentative or to dispute. Each person has his/her own journey to take. But there is SO much more waiting for each of us. This will probably be my last post in this thread.

[skalenfehl]

I do not believe the two are cleanly separable.

Then it is the perception of the hearer. Let each person decide.

[Jason_J]

Just a friendly reminder that I'm not really interested in having a thread about Denver Snuffer (I'm reading the link to a previous thread on him), but about receiving the Second Comforter (thanks for the link!), and what that concept means in the context of the Gospel. :)

[skalenfehl]

Just a friendly reminder that I'm not really interested in having a thread about Denver Snuffer (I'm reading the link to a previous thread on him), but about receiving the Second Comforter (thanks for the link!), and what that concept means in the context of the Gospel. :)

It truly is a glorious concept. Words cannot express.

[skalenfehl]

It means that as we are brought to the veil, we are sealed unto eternal life by the Savior who makes His abode with us and Who also introduces us to His Father Who also makes His abode with us.

D&C 76:52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—

56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—

[skalenfehl]

In our endowment, we are only "anointed" to become such, but that is it. That is all. This is very important in context and in contrast with those who are not only anointed, but also sealed unto those things given after we have parted the veil and received the greater gift, hence our "endowment."

[estradling75]

Just a friendly reminder that I'm not really interested in having a thread about Denver Snuffer (I'm reading the link to a previous thread on him), but about receiving the Second Comforter (thanks for the link!), and what that concept means in the context of the Gospel. :)

Most faithful latter-day would say that they look forward to the day when they stand in the physical presence of God. Most believe that it will happen after the final judgement when they gain the Celestial Kingdom and enter into their exaltation. Because that is when they think they we become the kind of person that can stand the 'weight' of Celestial glory.

However the restriction on when this happens isn't in the timing, it is in the becoming. Scriptures show that people can and have reached this point while in their mortal life. We can too if we meet the same requirements

Edited April 25, 2013 by estradling75