Receiving the Second Comforter-Personal Visit From Christ?

[Just_A_Guy]

This is the path to Zion (and 144,000), whether unto ourselves or physically (Enoch).

This entire process or path to Zion/membership of the church of the Firstborn ("fullness" of the gospel/"fullness" of the Father) is a process of sanctification. Most members' paradigm ends at the temple endowment, which as I mentioned earlier is only a similitude of a very real path back into our Savior's embrace. It is to become a wise virgin; a tame fruit (Jacob 7), entering into His rest while still in mortality, membership in the church of Enoch/Firstborn.

Skalenfehl, I trust you mean well; but the above could be read as betraying a sort of "clubbishness" and condescension towards the hoi polloi of the Church (we're the foolish virgins? And the untamed fruit? Really?) that make me suspicious of Snuffer and his followers, and leery of these kinds of conversations generally.

Wasn't it Joseph Smith who said that one of the reasons we don't receive more revelations is because, as a people, we don't know how to keep a secret? Why, then, has Snuffer taken it upon himself to spoon-feed doctrine that should be coming through the whisperings of the Spirit and through prolonged wrestlings with the scriptures? Why isn't personal revelation sufficient to suit Snuffer's purposes?

Edited April 26, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[beefche]

It is talked in conference almost every conference. They are just usually stated in a small paragraph. Haight has come out in conference and stated he saw Christ.

Can you provide the reference for this one?

[HiJolly]

Skalenfehl, I trust you mean well; but the above could be read as betraying a sort of "clubbishness" and condescension towards the hoi polloi of the Church (we're the foolish virgins? And the untamed fruit? Really?) that make me suspicious of Snuffer and his followers, and leery of these kinds of conversations generally.

Wasn't it Joseph Smith who said that one of the reasons we don't receive more revelations is because, as a people, we don't know how to keep a secret? Why, then, has Snuffer taken it upon himself to spoon-feed doctrine that should be coming through the whisperings of the Spirit and through prolonged wrestlings with the scriptures? Why isn't personal revelation sufficient to suit Snuffer's purposes?

I've enjoyed the thread. While perfection in this life is unattainable for us, sanctification and yes, being called and elected, I am absolutely certain, is possible. For me, it is valuable to ponder the relationship of being elected but yet not perfect.

Just_A_Guy, I guess I really fail to see your POV. Sorry. The ACTIVE membership of the Church is paralleled by all 10 virgins. WE ARE both foolish and wise. How can we take offense at the truth, except via the natural man?

As for Brother Snuffer. He says he was charged with writing the book by none other than the Savior Himself. I say, read the book, ponder it, and see if that claim seems justified based on Snuffer's works. I have done so, and am happy to have done so. It has blessed my life.

You can be skeptical, of course. You can even characterize his book-writing as "taken it upon himself to spoon-feed doctrine that should be coming" to us anyways, but I don't suppose that helps anyone nor does it correctly convey Brother Snuffer's mindset. Just my opinion.

HJ

[ElectofGod]

Skalenfehl, I trust you mean well; but the above could be read as betraying a sort of "clubbishness" and condescension towards the hoi polloi of the Church (we're the foolish virgins? And the untamed fruit? Really?) that make me suspicious of Snuffer and his followers, and leery of these kinds of conversations generally.

Wasn't it Joseph Smith who said that one of the reasons we don't receive more revelations is because, as a people, we don't know how to keep a secret? Why, then, has Snuffer taken it upon himself to spoon-feed doctrine that should be coming through the whisperings of the Spirit and through prolonged wrestlings with the scriptures? Why isn't personal revelation sufficient to suit Snuffer's purposes?

When I first read skalenfehl's comment, I thought, oh boy here it comes.

Anyways regarding the actual comment. If you cannot enter into Christ's presence you will not even become Terrestial beings. I would replace the word mortality with the words "this life". Than what he said is accurate. This life extends into the spirit world (Alma 34? 40?). Remember "all those who would have received it if they were permitted to tarry" go into the Celestial kingdom. Applies to all.

A Zion community is one that will converse with God, "blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God". Zion is where the pure in heart are. We cannot enter Zion, the Celestial kingdom, until we become pure. Now we become pure through sanctification. Christ's blood sanctifies us. When we reach that stage we will See Christ when its expedient for us. It may not be immediate. Either way we should strive for it "enduring to the end".

Thats my opinion. My opinion changes from day to day. So I am open to what others say.

His last comment about "we won't make it to zion without it"... The purpose of the upcoming trials/tribulations are to test us. IF we are proven through those, the Lord will have proved us and we will be worthy to receive it. I would work on receiving it as soon as possible but those trials are meant to prove us. After all the Lord will require us to go to Adam-ondi-Ahman the great meeting where Christ will preside. We better be worthy at that point.

Many in the book of mormon did not receive these blessings early on in their life. They had lived a good life before God blessed them with the presence of the Son. We will be required to live a long, trembling, exhausting, life before the Lord blesses us with these things.

EDIT, thanks to Just_A_Guy for finding me the reference. A Story of Grant who was given something from what his ancestry did not fromwhat he had done. Our ancestry are soo important just like we are to them.

“As I was riding along to meet them . . . , I seemed to see, and I seemed to hear, what to me is one of the most real things in all my life. I seemed to hear the words that were spoken. I listened to the discussion with a great deal of interest. The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles had not been able to agree on two men to fill the vacancies in the Quorum of the Twelve. There had been a vacancy of one for two years, and a vacancy of two for one year, and the conferences had adjourned without the vacancies’ being filled. In this council the Savior was present, my father was there, and the Prophet Joseph Smith was there. They discussed the question that a mistake had been made in not filling those two vacancies and that in all probability it would be another six months before the Quorum would be completed. And they discussed as to whom they wanted to occupy those positions, and decided that the way to remedy the mistake that had been made in not filling these vacancies was to send a revelation. It was given to me that the Prophet Joseph Smith and my father mentioned me and requested that I be called to that position. I sat there and wept for joy. It was given to me that I had done nothing to entitle me to that exalted position, except that I had lived a clean, sweet life. It was given to me that because of my father’s having practically sacrificed his life in what was known as the great reformation, so to speak, of the people in early days, having been practically a martyr, that the Prophet Joseph and my father desired me to have that position, and it was because of their faithful labors that I was called, and not because of anything I had done of myself or any great thing that I had accomplished. It was also given to me that that was all these men, the Prophet and my father, could do for me. From that day it depended upon me and upon me alone as to whether I made a success of my life or a failure” (Gospel Standards, 195–96).

Also note, Christ doesn't just visit us to visit us, he visits us in our time of great need. Great persecution, or great suffering. When its needful for us, not because we want it. When our bodies feel like they might collapse, when we feel all hope is almost lost. Joseph Smith received the melchezek priesthood by peter james and john AFTER they had fallen on the ground due to exhaustion and a mob chasing them trying to kill them.

Edited April 26, 2013 by ElectofGod

[ElectofGod]

Can you provide the reference for this one?

Sure.

This adds to my previous post. This guy is pretty old when he is given this experience. I have copied almost 3/4 the talk here. I would hear him give the talk on the youtube video posted in the link, while you read it. Its a touching story.

The Sacrament—and the Sacrifice - general-conference

The evening of my health crisis, I knew something very serious had happened to me. Events happened so swiftly—the pain striking with such intensity, my dear Ruby phoning the doctor and our family, and I on my knees leaning over the bathtub for support and some comfort and hoped relief from the pain. I was pleading to my Heavenly Father to spare my life a while longer to give me a little more time to do His work, if it was His will.

While still praying, I began to lose consciousness. The siren of the paramedic truck was the last that I remembered before unconsciousness overtook me, which would last for the next several days.

The terrible pain and commotion of people ceased. I was now in a calm, peaceful setting; all was serene and quiet. I was conscious of two persons in the distance on a hillside, one standing on a higher level than the other. Detailed features were not discernible. The person on the higher level was pointing to something I could not see.

I heard no voices but was conscious of being in a holy presence and atmosphere. During the hours and days that followed, there was impressed again and again upon my mind the eternal mission and exalted position of the Son of Man. I witness to you that He is Jesus the Christ, the Son of God, Savior to all, Redeemer of all mankind, Bestower of infinite love, mercy, and forgiveness, the Light and Life of the world. I knew this truth before—I had never doubted nor wondered. But now I knew, because of the impressions of the Spirit upon my heart and soul, these divine truths in a most unusual way.

I was shown a panoramic view of His earthly ministry: His baptism, His teaching, His healing the sick and lame, the mock trial, His crucifixion, His resurrection and ascension. There followed scenes of His earthly ministry to my mind in impressive detail, confirming scriptural eyewitness accounts. I was being taught, and the eyes of my understanding were opened by the Holy Spirit of God so as to behold many things.

The first scene was of the Savior and His Apostles in the upper chamber on the eve of His betrayal. Following the Passover supper, He instructed and prepared the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper for His dearest friends as a remembrance of His coming sacrifice. It was so impressively portrayed to me—the overwhelming love of the Savior for each. I witnessed His thoughtful concern for significant details—the washing of the dusty feet of each Apostle, His breaking and blessing of the loaf of dark bread and blessing of the wine, then His dreadful disclosure that one would betray Him.

He explained Judas’s departure and told the others of the events soon to take place.

Then followed the Savior’s solemn discourse when He said to the Eleven: “These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.” (John 16:33.)

Our Savior prayed to His Father and acknowledged the Father as the source of His authority and power—even to the extending of eternal life to all who are worthy.

He prayed, “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

Jesus then reverently added:

“I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

“And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” (John 17:3–5.)

He pled not only for the disciples called out from the world who had been true to their testimony of Him, “but for them also which shall believe on me through their word.” (John 17:20.)

When they had sung a hymn, Jesus and the Eleven went out to the Mount of Olives. There, in the garden, in some manner beyond our comprehension, the Savior took upon Himself the burden of the sins of mankind from Adam to the end of the world. His agony in the garden, Luke tells us, was so intense “his sweat was as … great drops of blood falling … to the ground.” (Luke 22:44.) He suffered an agony and a burden the like of which no human person would be able to bear. In that hour of anguish our Savior overcame all the power of Satan.

The glorified Lord revealed to Joseph Smith this admonition to all mankind:

“Therefore I command you to repent …

“For … I, God, … suffered … for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; …

“Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, …

“Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments.” (D&C 19:15–16, 18, 20.)

During those days of unconsciousness I was given, by the gift and power of the Holy Ghost, a more perfect knowledge of His mission. I was also given a more complete understanding of what it means to exercise, in His name, the authority to unlock the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven for the salvation of all who are faithful. My soul was taught over and over again the events of the betrayal, the mock trial, the scourging of the flesh of even one of the Godhead. I witnessed His struggling up the hill in His weakened condition carrying the cross and His being stretched upon it as it lay on the ground, that the crude spikes could be driven with a mallet into His hands and wrists and feet to secure His body as it hung on the cross for public display.

Crucifixion—the horrible and painful death which He suffered—was chosen from the beginning. By that excruciating death, He descended below all things, as is recorded, that through His resurrection He would ascend above all things. (See D&C 88:6.)

Jesus Christ died in the literal sense in which we will all die. His body lay in the tomb. The immortal spirit of Jesus, chosen as the Savior of mankind, went to those myriads of spirits who had departed mortal life with varying degrees of righteousness to God’s laws. He taught them the “glorious tidings of redemption from the bondage of death, and of possible salvation, … [which was] part of [our] Savior’s foreappointed and unique service to the human family.” (James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1977, p. 671.)

I cannot begin to convey to you the deep impact that these scenes have confirmed upon my soul. I sense their eternal meaning and realize that “nothing in the entire plan of salvation compares in any way in importance with that most transcendent of all events, the atoning sacrifice of our Lord. It is the most important single thing that has ever occurred in the entire history of created things; it is the rock foundation upon which the gospel and all other things rest,” as has been declared. (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966, p. 60.)

[Anddenex]

ElectofGod,

If you notice Haight was actually unconscious during this event by which the Lord revealed himself to him.

He was not awake. This is a different experience then the twelve apostles enjoyed as the resurrected Lord visited them.

Thus, I don't think it is fair to say use this as evidence. He was in an unconscious state.

Note, I am not saying he hasn't seen him, I just don't think this would satisfy, this experience, as seeing him, while he was praying to live longer to serve his Lord, and then fell unconscious -- although in this state he was conscious within the avenue the Lord was communicating to him.

[ElectofGod]

ElectofGod,

If you notice Haight was actually unconscious during this event by which the Lord revealed himself to him.

He was not awake. This is a different experience then the twelve apostles enjoyed as the resurrected Lord visited them.

Thus, I don't think it is fair to say use this as evidence. He was in an unconscious state.

Note, I am not saying he hasn't seen him, I just don't think this would satisfy, this experience, as seeing him, while he was praying to live longer to serve his Lord, and then fell unconscious -- although in this state he was conscious within the avenue the Lord was communicating to him.

Interesting observation. I have heard this asked before and read an answer on it. I forget what I read though.

Does it really matter whether we see him "in the spirit", "dreams", "physically"... They are all similar, and anyone is not greater than thee other. However, you may be right what is being discussed is an physical occurrence. I guess he was in a way, a near death experience. Either way we ARE in the presence of God? We have shown we are WORTHY of it. The rest will follow when its expedient (whether in this life or next)

Is that what you were saying? Is what being discussed only refering to a physical appearance like in 3 Nephi 11? Or the 12 who lived with him as you mentioned?

Edited April 26, 2013 by ElectofGod

[Just_A_Guy]

There is a story about one of the prophets who had not seen Christ. He shared a vision he had how when he didn't feel worthy to be the prophet, a family member who had been a previous apostle/prophet, told him that because of something that was done by the family member (don't remember what) he was able to become the prophet and he would be saved. (I really hope I didn't butcher this story lol, I may have)

It was Heber J. Grant. See the section "He was called to the quorum of the twelve apostles" (last paragraph), here.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[Anddenex]

Interesting observation. I have heard this asked before and read an answer on it. I forget what I read though.

Does it really matter whether we see him "in the spirit", "dreams", "physically"... They are all similar, and anyone is not greater than thee other. However, you may be right what is being discussed is an physical occurrence. I guess he was in a way, a near death experience.

Is that what you were saying? Is what being discussed only refering to a physical appearance like in 3 Nephi 11?

Excellent question. This is from my frame of reference and perspective. When I hear an individual say the words, "I have seen the risen Lord," my first impression tends to lean toward a "physical" manifestation; thus, I picture in my mind the risen Lord as seen by Mary, the twelve Apostles, and Joseph Smith.

Imagine the first vision of Joseph Smith explained in a different way to converts. Joseph Smith was praying, praying and exhausted to the point of loosing consciousness. As he fell unconsciousness, two personages appeared to him....

I, myself, believe these two types of witnesses are very different. I don't believe Joseph Smith's experience would be as powerful to potential converts is he shared, "I was unconscious, fell asleep, while this occurred." He was wide awake.

As a member, I find Elder Haight's witness very powerful, but I would not say, myself, "he saw Christ" (in reference only to the article shared). He was provided a different experience by the power of the Holy Ghost, and as members we know the power of the Holy Ghost will convince the sons and daughters of God more than an actual visit from an angel.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Anddenex

[Just_A_Guy]

Just_A_Guy, I guess I really fail to see your POV. Sorry. The ACTIVE membership of the Church is paralleled by all 10 virgins. WE ARE both foolish and wise. How can we take offense at the truth, except via the natural man?

If that is what Skalenfehl meant, then I can only apologize for my misinterpretation. But I did not see the nuance you propose, in the post I was responding to. It seemed to have a very in-group versus out-group duality about it.

As for Brother Snuffer. He says he was charged with writing the book by none other than the Savior Himself. I say, read the book, ponder it, and see if that claim seems justified based on Snuffer's works. I have done so, and am happy to have done so. It has blessed my life.

You can be skeptical, of course. You can even characterize his book-writing as "taken it upon himself to spoon-feed doctrine that should be coming" to us anyways, but I don't suppose that helps anyone nor does it correctly convey Brother Snuffer's mindset. Just my opinion.

I respect that, HiJolly; but what I see is a person who is trumpeting the Church's most sacred and holy doctrines -- doctrines that, by and large, the Church leadership obviously know but have elected to keep more or less hidden -- and set himself up as the source of this hidden knowledge. He then - if the blog posts referenced here and elsewhere truly originate with him - seems to have used that position to subtly drive wedges between his disciples and the prophets and apostles the Lord has put in place. Where does Doctrine and Covenants 28 come into play with all of this?

I'll keep looking into it, but right now Snuffer strikes me as a latter-day Gnostic--highly fascinating, and very often right and even enlightening; but ultimately misguided and, if he suggests Church members dismiss the counsel of the modern prophets and apostles, then frankly apostate.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[ElectofGod]

If that is what Skalenfehl meant, then I can only apologize for my misinterpretation. But I did not see the nuance you propose, in the post I was responding to. It seemed to have a very in-group versus out-group duality about it.

Now you know how non members feel about us and the temple hehe :lol:

I respect that, HiJolly; but what I see is a person who is trumpeting the Church's most sacred and holy doctrines -- doctrines that, by and large, the Church leadership obviously know but have elected to keep more or less hidden -- and set himself up as the source of this hidden knowledge. He then - if the blog posts referenced here and elsewhere truly originate with him - seems to have used that position to subtly drive wedges between his disciples and the prophets and apostles the Lord has put in place. Where does Doctrine and Covenants 28 come into play with all of this?

Have you read any of his books? Not his blog... His blog is written mostly due to questions people have about his books. You need to know why he was writing what he wrote.

I'll keep looking into it, but right now Snuffer strikes me as a latter-day Gnostic--highly fascinating, and very often right and even enlightening; but ultimately misguided and, if he suggests Church members dismiss the counsel of the modern prophets and apostles, then frankly apostate.

Read SC. Than judge him.

--------

anndenex,

I am g oing to think about that one for awhile. I have never realized that. Infact I don't think there is a written account of Joseph saying "I have seen him" in that context.

Though the stories I have read about seeing Christ are ALL in some form of "meditation and being carried away in the spirit"... Even Denver's was like that which he wrote about. I read story of someone who touched his scares but did so in a "dream" or "spirit". I think the answer to this is "wait and see for yourself" but I will ponder over it and ask anyways

I have not completely made up my mind even about my previous post that is in response to skal.... post. I keep changing my mind in a few details.

Edited April 26, 2013 by ElectofGod

[Anddenex]

I am g oing to think about that one for awhile. I have never realized that. Infact I don't think there is a written account of Joseph saying "I have seen him" in that context.

How do you interpret JSH 1: 16-17, when Joseph says, "I saw two personages..." He was in the act of praying, was almost overcome by the adversary, and then prayed for deliverance.

Also, how do you interpret Joseph Smith visit from Moroni, as he shares, "I had full confidence in obtaining a divine manifestation, as I previously had one.

30 While I was thus in the act of calling upon God,"

It would appear to me, personally, he did say "I have seen him..." as he saw Moroni, wide awake, while in the act of calling upon God.

[Just_A_Guy]

Now you know how non members feel about us and the temple

So the second comforter is a temple to which Snuffer can be looked as holding the keys of admission? Is that the analogy we want to be drawing here?

Though the stories I have read about seeing Christ are ALL in some form of "meditation and being carried away in the spirit"... Even Denver's was like that . . .

There it is again, EoG. "Even Denver's"? As if his purported encounters are some sort of née plus ultra of revelatory experiences?

I ask this sincerely: what is this hold he seems to have upon his readership?

[ElectofGod]

How do you interpret JSH 1: 16-17, when Joseph says, "I saw two personages..." He was in the act of praying, was almost overcome by the adversary, and then prayed for deliverance.

Also, how do you interpret Joseph Smith visit from Moroni, as he shares, "I had full confidence in obtaining a divine manifestation, as I previously had one.

30 While I was thus in the act of calling upon God,"

It would appear to me, personally, he did say "I have seen him..." as he saw Moroni, wide awake, while in the act of calling upon God.

Ohh, ok I see now. I read your first post wrong. I was thinking you were saying he did fall unconcious and had that vision. Still it was a vision not a physical appearance.

we have

Near Death Experience: Spirit leaves body to see

Vision: Carried away in the spirit... is this the same thing?

Dream: We are shown things in our "mind" or spirit.

Physical Appearance: 3 Nephi 11, Are they transfigured, quickened to see?

Even a dream I don't see it to be different. Maybe I am sitting here too long in front of the computer and mind isn't working at the moment.

[tumbledquartz]

Infact I don't think there is a written account of Joseph saying "I have seen him" in that context.

What about D&C 76?

Philo Dibble was an eyewitness when that vision was received, and he said, "Joseph would, at intervals, say: 'What do I see?' as one might say while looking out the window and beholding what all in the room could not see. then he would relate what he had seen or what he was looking at. Then Sidney replied, "I see the same.' Presently Sidney would say 'what do I see?' and would repeat what he had seen or was seeing, and Joseph would reply, "I see the same.'"

So Joseph and Sidney were both awake and conscious when they received the vision in D&C 76, in which they say, "We saw him, even on the right hand of God."

Edited April 26, 2013 by tumbledquartz
spelling

[ElectofGod]

So the second comforter is a temple to which Snuffer can be looked as holding the keys of admission? Is that the analogy we want to be drawing here?

I did not read that from skal's post. I thought your response was to a different part of it. It is not the analogy I want to be drawing. I misread it what you were saying

There it is again, EoG. "Even Denver's"? As if his purported encounters are some sort of née plus ultra of revelatory experiences?

I ask this sincerely: what is this hold he seems to have upon his readership?

Nothing, I mentioned others I just did not give them by name. Denver just has a name behind his experience. I have names for the others you just don't know them. John Pontius is another who has a name behind it. It is nothing to do with the name or the person. We use his name or the others to show "look this happened to this bum it can happen to me"...

I could use Enos, Nephi, Brother Jared instead... Its just "more familiar" for some to use what these other writers have written because they have simplified on what Enos and Nephi and Jared have said without us having to dig around dozens of scriptures.

I am not sure why you feel like he has a hold on anyone. (Ok I can see it a little ) The hold is, "too many in the church feel like we shouldn't seek after the mysteries of the kingdom, feel like they can't see angels, can't see Christ, can't have their own experiences", But denver has shown us its NOT ONLY for the APOSTLES or PROPHETS. Don't get me wrong, the apostles and prophets have stated that many times. But go talk to the general membership and that is what they will tell you.

I don't care about the man denver. I care about the message its for us ALL. So people bring up denver to say look, its not just for them, beceause we show them Enos, Jared, Nephi, and they respond well they were special, they were a prophet, it doesn't happen in our day... Than I try to give them sources in conference reports of seeing Christ, visions, they say its not for us in this day. So we use an obscure person to show them look, he is not a prophet, an apostle, yet had the same experience the prophets have.

That is the response, not everyone. I could use small portions of conference talks to prove the same point its just easier to hand someone a book like Second Comforter and say Go REad this. Or read Following the Light of Christ. Or go Read, How to make your calling and election made sure by Elliason (spelled that wrong)... etc.

Edited April 26, 2013 by ElectofGod

[ElectofGod]

What about D&C 76?

Philo Dibble was an eyewitness when that vision was received, and he said, "Joseph would, at intervals, say: 'What do I see?' as one might say while looking out the window and beholding what all in the room could not see. then he would relate what he had seen or what he was looking at. Then Sidney replied, "I see the same.' Presently Sidney would say 'what do I see?' and would repeat what he had seen or was seeing, and Joseph would reply, "I see the same.'"

So Joseph and Sidney were both awake and conscious when they received the vision in D&C 76, in which they say, "We saw him, even on the right hand of God."

Yes but in the context andenex was saying, "a physical appearance" I was thinking to touch the scares and feet or whatever else happens. In that case, he was not just seeing Christ, he Was seeing hte presence of God. Its not an account of him "feeling his scares".. He may have done so but its not fully written.

However, that story does make it sound like you are right it was also a physical appearance.

[tumbledquartz]

Yes but in the context andenex was saying, "a physical appearance" I was thinking to touch the scares and feet or whatever else happens. In that case, he was not just seeing Christ, he Was seeing hte presence of God. Its not an account of him "feeling his scares".. He may have done so but its not fully written.

However, that story does make it sound like you are right it was also a physical appearance.

I remember being taught at one time that what is written in D&C 76 is only a hundredth part of everything they saw and learned in that vision, so it's hard to know what else they saw exactly. I see what you're saying, though. I don't know if Christ personally appeared to them there, but personally, I wouldn't care about the distinction if I got to that point.

[ElectofGod]

I will let Denver speak for himself. Surprisingly after reading this I have decided to stop reading all 3rd party books for awhile and turn to only the scriptures for my study.

Asking for details from my experiences will add absolutely nothing to you. Those experiences will only weaken you. It will also weaken me. It will make me seem more than I am. It will cause you to surrender to another the responsibility devolving upon yourself. You will only err in thinking that having another "spiritual story" to retell has made you closer to the Lord. It doesn't happen that way. Get your own spiritual experiences. Then, if you want more, keep them sacred. That is what I do. I teach principles. I do not reveal experiences.

I've been thinking on the different kinds of questions I get, and what those questions reflect about the one asking. There are two conditions that cannot be overcome by me or any other person by answering your question. The first one is your insecurities. The other is your curiosity. Your insecurities about whatever is going on in your life will not go away because you received an answer to a question. Your curiosity will not be satisfied by hearing a spiritual experience recounted by another person.

The Holy Ghost is a guide to speak to you as you study the scriptures. It will lead you to understanding, harmony, clarity and truth. If you have not experienced this kind of awareness while studying the scriptures, then you need to attempt it. The scriptures are a great source of inspiration and revelation. Through them you can gain experience in listening to the Spirit. They tutor us, not just in doctrine, but they tutor us in hearing the voice of inspiration as well. Through scripture study you can develop a greater spiritual sensitivity. If you have not begun to do that, you will need to start.

[mikbone]

You don't have to quote Denver Snuffer. Why not go to the source.

Keeping Confidences

The reason we do not have the secrets of the Lord revealed unto us is because we do not keep them but reveal them, we do not keep our own secrets but reveal our difficulties to the world even to our enemies. Then how would we keep the secrets of the Lord? Joseph says I can keep a secret till doomsday.

Joseph Smith Jr., Sermon delivered at Smith Homestead on Sunday December 19, 1841

Source: Wilford Woodruff Journal

[ElectofGod]

You don't have to quote Denver Snuffer. Why not go to the source.

Keeping Confidences

The reason we do not have the secrets of the Lord revealed unto us is because we do not keep them but reveal them, we do not keep our own secrets but reveal our difficulties to the world even to our enemies. Then how would we keep the secrets of the Lord? Joseph says I can keep a secret till doomsday.

Joseph Smith Jr., Sermon delivered at Smith Homestead on Sunday December 19, 1841

Source: Wilford Woodruff Journal

Because the question was about Denver not Joseph smith. But that quote says the same thing.

[skalenfehl]

Skalenfehl, I trust you mean well; but the above could be read as betraying a sort of "clubbishness" and condescension towards the hoi polloi of the Church (we're the foolish virgins? And the untamed fruit? Really?) that make me suspicious of Snuffer and his followers, and leery of these kinds of conversations generally.

Wasn't it Joseph Smith who said that one of the reasons we don't receive more revelations is because, as a people, we don't know how to keep a secret? Why, then, has Snuffer taken it upon himself to spoon-feed doctrine that should be coming through the whisperings of the Spirit and through prolonged wrestlings with the scriptures? Why isn't personal revelation sufficient to suit Snuffer's purposes?

Joseph could keep a secret when charged to keep a secret. But he shared sooo much more. I have not shared anything that he didn't teach, nor that Nephi or the BoM prophets declared. This is conincidental with Denver since the OP brought it up, though I feel like people keep associating what I share with him. His books only put into context what we all already have and have had since the restoration. When we receive a testimony, shall we not declare it? Are we as LDS clubbish by holding our lights to the world and testifying of the Book of Mormon and of Joseph Smith and the restoration of these truths? Or do we hold our lights under bushels? Perhaps this is why Mormons are hated and parodied and shunned by many fellow Christians.

[skalenfehl]

One final thought from me, I promise. While some are tasked to keep their revelations and experiences secret, others are tasked to share them and hold their light up, which is Jesus Christ. I think this will probably be my last post on this forum. Thank you all for at least considering my own testimony and if I was only able to touch even one person, then it was worth it. I will continue bearing my testimony and sharing my experiences elsewhere as they are received. There ARE miracles and wonders today and ministering of angels and much more. I am grateful to those who boldly came before me and testified of these same things, else I would never have known.

With love.

[Jason_J]

I am not sure why you feel like he has a hold on anyone. (Ok I can see it a little ) The hold is, "too many in the church feel like we shouldn't seek after the mysteries of the kingdom, feel like they can't see angels, can't see Christ, can't have their own experiences", But denver has shown us its NOT ONLY for the APOSTLES or PROPHETS. Don't get me wrong, the apostles and prophets have stated that many times. But go talk to the general membership and that is what they will tell you.

One final thought from me, I promise. While some are tasked to keep their revelations and experiences secret, others are tasked to share them and hold their light up, which is Jesus Christ. I think this will probably be my last post on this forum. Thank you all for at least considering my own testimony and if I was only able to touch even one person, then it was worth it. I will continue bearing my testimony and sharing my experiences elsewhere as they are received. There ARE miracles and wonders today and ministering of angels and much more. I am grateful to those who boldly came before me and testified of these same things, else I would never have known.

With love.

Thanks for these thoughts. I think this is interesting when we think of the LDS Church as continuing in the same vein as what we read in the OT, the NT, and the Book of Mormon, where there were miracles, visions, Heavenly visitations, angelic ministrations, etc. Did visits from Heaven end with the Restoration? I think some LDS believe that such things don't really happen anymore. It's interesting to think about the Divine events that occur throughout the scriptures, and then think about the Church with its belief in continuing revelation, open canon, etc. It is also interesting to think about what it means in the Aaronic priesthood to have the keys of the "ministering of angels"...hmm...

Skalenfehl, thanks for your testimony. Do you believe that you have been tasked to share your experiences? Do you believe that you've been ministered to by angels and/or the Lord? Feel free to ignore if you don't want to answer :).

[ElectofGod]

I think some LDS believe that such things don't really happen anymore

Exactly.Now the Lord already knew this. This is why he keeps talking about the "wheat and tares" growing together. There are wheat who don't believe it perhaps, but the Lord will still enlighten them when they are ready (if they become ready).

It may be sad, but its the perfect learning environment for all of us. Its exactly how God wanted it for us to learn, to come closer to Christ. This awful, wicked world, is the perfect learning ground for the few followers of Christ. So we should seek after helping others and don't feel like we are better because they don't think the way we do. "It does not prove a man is a bad person because he err's in doctrine"... God will increase the problems in the world until they repent and their true colors shine, or until they (or us, were not exempt) fall into wickedness.