Can you touch a spirit being?


Upcountry
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If Hitler did have a fair and just opportunity to live and accept the gospel in this life then based on his murders he is cut off from both the terrestrial and celestial kingdoms and has been suffering and will continue to suffer the Justice of God until his resurrection to a telestial glory after the millennium has ended. If this is the case, if work was done for him in the temple, it has no redemptive power for by his own acts during life he has placed himself beyond such.

I am not one to subscribe to the idea that there were individuals who having sided with Satan in the pre-existence intentionally falsely professed faith in Christ so as to be given a body to better 'infiltrate' Satan's enemies. God has all knowledge now and had all knowledge then. He knew who really had faith in Christ and who really chose Christ over Lucifer and would have judged them by their actions and the intents of their hearts as he does us now.

Adam was worthy to come as Adam. Cain was worthy to come as Adam's son. Lucifer, before his rebellion was worthy to exercise the authority in God's presence that he exercised. All who come to earth were worthy via deeds and faith in Christ to come to earth.

Hence why it is so tragic when Lucifer, Cain and any of us then choose to rebel against God.

There are (at least) two ways to interpret scriptures.

If we chose to follow Satan either because we are deceived or lazy, or greedy, etc. Then:

1) God sees that, in our hearts, we are followers of Satan and punishes us; or

2) Since we have been made are agents unto ourselves, we suffer the consequences of our choices.

I prefer option #2.

Because of our choice of the Council In Heaven, we on earth chose to have our agency while Lucifer (now Satan) wanted to take that away. I imagine he had compelling arguments since he drew away 1/3 by their free choice. Once these spirits chose to come to earth without a body, I doubt that Jesus would want to (or even could) rescind their choice. Choices made by agents unto themselves have consequences.

I have read that Cain with a body rules over mere spirit Satan. That could be since Cain chose to come to earth even though he had an anger problem. Cain does have a body. Could Satan be a parasite on Cain in the Telestial kingdom? (If he is there, I will not judge). But, I digress.

Option #1 requires too much interference from God on a day to day basis.

Edited by Upcountry
changed "to" to "unto"
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As to the issue of the source, your quote is the equivalent of saying that if you heard it of Fox News, it doesn't count as news. Sorry. The truth is the truth whatever its source. The issue should be: Is it the truth?.

Presentation is everything. Something very sacred can be presented in a false and misleading way and change "truth" to a lie just by virtue of how it is presented.

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Presentation is everything. Something very sacred can be presented in a false and misleading way and change "truth" to a lie just by virtue of how it is presented.

I would call that deception. Truth remains truth but it can be presented in ways that are false and misleading. Satan is a master at this for he is a subtle deceiver.

I give two examples:

In the Garden of Eden, the serpent says to Eve, "thou shall not surely die" Gen 3:4. LDS maintains that he was correct for we need not die. - Satan did not lie.

My favorite quote is "That one soul shall not be lost" Moses 4:1. I have heard it twice from the pulpit as "That not one soul shall be lost" which is a completely different and untrue meaning.

I contend that Lucifer quite accurately said that if the souls relinquished their free agency to him, that only his soul would not be lost (the rest would be slaves) and since they would be his slaves, their glory would be Satan's not God's.

Again, Satan did not lie. He deceived.

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There are (at least) two ways to interpret scriptures.

If we chose to follow Satan either because we are deceived or lazy, or greedy, etc. Then:

1) God sees that, in our hearts, we are followers of Satan and punishes us; or

2) Since we have been made are agents unto ourselves, we suffer the consequences of our choices.

I prefer option #2.

Option #1 requires too much interference from God on a day to day basis.

You make many good points in this and other posts and I thank you =). There are a few things that I disagree with, don't understand, or feel to expound upon and due to the length, chose to split it up into separate posts.

In regarding to the quote above, I'm having difficulty understanding what you refer to in option 1 and 2. Do I correctly understand that you disagree with God judging us based on the thoughts and intents of our hearts rather than our deeds alone?

Alma 12:14 For our words will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence.

Mercy was made possible by the atonement of Jesus Christ on conditions of faith and repentance. Outside of obtaining mercy all who are accountable will suffer the consequences of our sins.

Being tempted or having a sinful thought is not itself a sin. Planting it in our hearts, nourishing it and entertaining such thoughts is a sin. Such sins bear fruit after their own kind and what originally starts out as a thought becomes an action.

Sow a thought and you reap an action; sow an act and you reap a habit; sow a habit and you reap a character; sow a character and you reap a destiny.

In as much as we sin or are disobedient, we cut ourselves off from the presence and blessings of God.

D&C 130:20-21

There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

The Devil seeks to make all men as miserable as himself.

2 Nephi 2: 27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

Thus the suffering for sin in this life isn't so much God interfering on a day by day basis to punish us for the thoughts and intents of our heart as it is that to the degree we sin we cut ourselves off from the Lord and place ourselves subject under the power of the Devil.

For the most part the sword of Justice that hangs over the wicked is withheld until the cup of their iniquity is full. This is because God is full of long-suffering and mercy and continues to provide time and opportunity to repent. This is also because God is full of justice and doing so ensures his punishments are fully just.

Back to the original quote for this response, did I correctly understand what you were trying to say? Does my response make sense? Does it clarify anything? I hope so or else I wouldn't have written it! After all, if my words have no use to you or anyone else, if they don't please the Lord, then what is the point of my writing?

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Because of our choice of the Council In Heaven, we on earth chose to have our agency while Lucifer (now Satan) wanted to take that away. I imagine he had compelling arguments since he drew away 1/3 by their free choice. Once these spirits chose to come to earth without a body, I doubt that Jesus would want to (or even could) rescind their choice. Choices made by agents unto themselves have consequences.

I have read that Cain with a body rules over mere spirit Satan. That could be since Cain chose to come to earth even though he had an anger problem. Cain does have a body. Could Satan be a parasite on Cain in the Telestial kingdom? (If he is there, I will not judge). But, I digress.

This is the topic that I felt particularly to expound upon. You're right that you were digressing but that's ok =). It helped me see an area in your gospel knowledge where I feel able to shed some light on for you. To this end, I hope you find what I share to be of worth =).

While there are three degree's of glory, not all will receive such.

D&C 88:24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.

D&C 76:31-39

Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born; for they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity; concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels and the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

Those who through sin in this life become sons/daughters of perdition are beyond the redemptive power of the atonement or repentance unto forgiveness. They will, with the Devil and his hosts, be cast into outer darkness.

D&C 76:40-48

And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness; that through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him; who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

Wherefore, he saves all except them—They shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows; neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof; nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again; wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation.

It is in Moses 5 that we learn so much of Cain and his becoming a Son of Perdition. Thus we know the destination of Cain and all other sons/daughters of perdition. The versus that teach of Cain ruling over Satan are found in that same chapter.

And the Lord said unto Cain: Why art thou wroth? Why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, thou shalt be accepted. And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door, and Satan desireth to have thee; and except thou shalt hearken unto my commandments, I will deliver thee up, and it shall be unto thee according to his desire. And thou shalt rule over him; for from this time forth thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world.

While Cain will rule over Satan, that day has not yet come.

And Satan sware unto Cain that he would do according to his commands. And all these things were done in secret.

While Satan did covenant the above with Cain it was a lie. It was not a covenant Satan kept and not the reason why Cain will rule over Satan. Satan doesn't keep covenants with God or anyone else but breaks them when they no longer serve his goals.

The sons/daughters of perdition will not be resurrected until after all others and as mentioned above will then be cast into outer darkness with Satan and the rest of the third part of heaven who rebelled with him. It is then and there that the sons/daughters of perdition, Cain included, will rule over Satan and those who rebelled with him by virtue of having a spiritual body defined as the inseparable union of a physical and spirit body via resurrection.

It was Joseph Smith who taught the truth that all beings who have bodies have power over those who have not.

You're right that Satan had compelling arguments (lies) and that he deceived a great many into following him then just like he does now. There were some then as there are now who likewise knew full well he was lying/deceiving but thirsting for power gain etc joined him anyways.

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Presentation is everything. Something very sacred can be presented in a false and misleading way and change "truth" to a lie just by virtue of how it is presented.

I would call that deception. Truth remains truth but it can be presented in ways that are false and misleading. Satan is a master at this for he is a subtle deceiver.

I contend that Lucifer quite accurately said that if the souls relinquished their free agency to him, that only his soul would not be lost (the rest would be slaves) and since they would be his slaves, their glory would be Satan's not God's.

Again, Satan did not lie. He deceived.

Just to be sure here but you're not teaching that Satan doesn't lie right? After all, while all the most convincing lies contain truth, he does also flat outright lie.

2 Nephi 28:22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

Marriage between a man and a women is ordained by God. If you alter that truth, it is no longer truth but a lie is it not?

You are right that truth is truth. Until it is mixed with a lie and then the presented total is no longer truth. A part of it true? Yes. The total? No. Thus I agree that you can take truth and present it in a way where it become a lie. Can we agree that a rose by any other name is still a rose whether we call it a lie or deceiving? After all, can anyone deceive without lying?

he truth is the truth whatever its source. The issue should be: Is it the truth?.

I'm not so sure I can fully agree with you on the rest of that either. The issue is not only if it's true but the source as well. My desire is that I may come unto the fountain of all truth and learn from that source. The further and further I get downstream the more likely I'll swallow something poisonous or even deadly to my health. If the Devil offers me a cup of water from his fountain am I to say "is it the truth?" or should I not determine if it is even worth filtering first.

Should a cup from an unwitting agent of the adversary prove worth filtering, I see no real use in promoting the agent or the contents of the cup unto another lest they not be able to filter the truth and drink poison or even worse seek refills from that same agent. Instead I would filter it (via scriptures, words of prophet, holy ghost) and then offer it in a new cup to another with counsel to seek more from the true source.

Thus the question to me would first be whether this is a source is something worth filtering and then what part is truth. There is so much truth and so many clear and clean sources that it would be wise for me to be judicious in where I spent my time obtaining water. Such are my thoughts =).

I understand where both of you are coming from and appreciate your insights. I don't know if what I've delivered was worth the time I invested in delivering it but I pray some portion of it will be of assistance unto you or another.

Your Friend,

Brother M.

Edited by Martain
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Just to be sure here but you're not teaching that Satan doesn't lie right? After all, while all the most convincing lies contain truth, he does also flat outright lie.

What I am saying is that in those two cases quoted and that were said in the before the Gods and then Eve on very important occasions, Satan did not lie. From this, I have generalized.

It would have been very easy for Joseph to say "not one soul.." but he did not. So I ask why not? English was Joseph's first language. That translation or communication was direct from the spirit. I value it greatly.

There may be cases where you may find a direct lie in other scriptures and we can quibble about them. But be careful. If Satan could tell the full truth, he could fabricate a church and a doctrine that would be indistinguishable from our True Church. Satan could found a church based on love and Baptism for the Dead. But Satan cannot because the truth is already taken. Also, If pressed, I will give you two contradictory quotes from LDS scriptures.

Jesus said by their fruits you shall know them. To me, that also means there can be no counterfeits. In other words, a man of reason should be able to find the True Church by examination of its doctrine. Why is there no other church with Baptism for the Dead - even the Reformed LDS? That BOD is what converted me for years before I got into the doctrine deep enough to appreciate the beauty and its doctrine.

I appreciate this communication and will be greatly pleased to continue it further using your later quotes.

Upcountry

P.S. I am a physicist. My job and training is to find the laws of nature. I have to believe they exist somewhere in a logical framework. I must also realize that no matter how hard science tries, we can never be sure we know them correctly and completely. At any time a new thought or experiment can bring the entire theory down. It has happened many times. So I am very cautious about faith and saying "I know" for I "know" nothing.

Also, in science there is no deception. Errors are forgivable. Lies (intentional) are unforgivable and will ruin your career. Sadly, this has been changing as funding becomes more available if you reach the "correct" conclusions

So all of my ideas are hypothesis and I claim no spiritual authority.

I am always asking "why did God do that". Because, the way He does things must give clues about the world in which he lives. We are His children. He is like us only more advanced and certainly to be revered and loved.

Re: The truth is the truth. That Hitler example was either a fact or it was not. Either Hitler was baptized or he was not. There are no other options available. That is a simple case that I was referring to.

More complicated truths are more susceptible to deception. For example, "there is no hell". Define hell. Is it a place of fire and brimstone as is commonly believed elsewhere. LDS does not believe that. So there is no hell and Satan did not lie. If you find other scriptures, we can quibble further. But we must always remember the famous Clintonian quote: "that depends on what the definition of "is" is."

Edited by Upcountry
Put quote in bold. Truth. Deception.
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Brother Martain, You are correct and I and my conjecture is wrong. Satan can lie when he wants to. He need not only twist the truth.

The lie is in Moses 1:19 wherein Satan says "I am the only Begotten, worship me."

I thought of this last night. Thank you for your conversation to point this out.

There still remains the mystery of the phrasing of "One soul shall not be lost..." Perhaps, I have read too much into that. I had developed an interesting scenario to explain it.

There is much else in your posts I wish to ponder and address but there is too little time now.

I thank you for the time you have taken.

Upcountry

P.S. I picture The Father as a loving being. I have great difficulty grappling with the concept that He would condemn any of His children to "Outer Darkness". That would be too much for any of His creations to bear especially when they played a part in His plan. I have difficulty accepting that God, through Moses,ordered the slaughter of thousands of woman and children especially when children are defined as innocent.

I hope this communication will continue.

Upcountry

Edited by Upcountry
corrected bare to bare
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Q: Would Spirit Paradise be a paradise if you could not physically and tactically interact with those who live there?

A: I am taught that Spirit Paradise is the interval after death but before final judgment. The rules are different. If you are a spirit, you would not be able to interact physically or tactically with anyone. Neutrinos have the same issue and they form 25% of the universe

Q: How could you obey the command to not be idle if you could not work or interact with anything?

It is a new world. No speech, hearing, touching or books. Communication would be by thought. No physical work since there is no matter

Q: Do you expect a world without books of scripture? Would we have to entirely memorize or verbally relate such to perform missionary work?

Think of it as a giant WiFi system except your spirit takes the place of your computer. All the works and knowledge would be on line possibly as memories of those thatt wrote them. I expect memories to be perfect since they will not have to function through a physical mind.

Q: Was not this world patterned after our previous home? If so, then are we to say that we had no physical interaction with spiritual matter (our Father) or spirit matter (our prior world and each other) as a spirit being in the pre-existence?

I would expect to have some guidance there from other beings (resurrected?). As spirits, there can be no interaction with physical matter. D&C 129. But this is only temporary until the resurrection

While D&C 127 129? D&C 127 deals with record keeping.does help us understand how our physical senses would experience spiritual and spirit matter it does nothing to explain how spirit matter interacts with itself or with spiritual matter. Such is one of the mysteries of God and can really only be properly understood by revelation of which we have not as a church in its plainness received.This is what I meant by telepathy.

My reply is in the quote.

Edited by Upcountry
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