Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Has Our Church Made Mistakes?


  • Please log in to reply
107 replies to this topic

#1 Bini

Bini

    xoxo

  • Members
  • 5749 posts
  • LocationUtah, USA

Posted 07 June 2013 - 03:13 PM

For example, Catholics have acknowledged that in the past there has been a blind eye turned towards sexual abuse within the church, and it's now an issue that's being addressed head-on. Has our church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, made mistakes? I'm not referring to when a member or members violates church regulations, I'm wondering more along the lines of the LDS Church as a whole taking responsibility for a mistake made and having to do damage control. Has it ever happened in the history of our Church?

No more dancing candy cane - hurrah!


#2 NeuroTypical

NeuroTypical

    Senior Moderator

  • Senior Moderators
  • 7476 posts

Posted 07 June 2013 - 03:17 PM

Regarding sexual abuse, the LDS church went through the same scandals and growing pains the Catholics did, just about a decade earlier. We took responsibility by beefing up member records and making permanent annotations possible, so predators couldn't move around from ward to ward. We've also done things like stick windows in classroom doors, mandate the 2 brethren rule for teaching sunday school/primary, created that toll-free number for leaders to call when they hear about abuse, increased training, and other things.
If I were rich, I'd have the time that I lack, to sit in the synagogue and pray.
And maybe have a seat by the Eastern wall.
And I'd discuss the holy books with the learned men, several hours every day.
That would be the sweetest thing of all.

Ohhh....
If I were a rich man...

#3 Just_A_Guy

Just_A_Guy

    Semi-Senior Moderator, and Repentant Sea-Lawyer

  • Senior Moderators
  • 8699 posts
  • LocationUtah County, Utah, USA

Posted 07 June 2013 - 04:11 PM

I think the Church (via President Eyring?) has issued a more-or-less apology for Mountain Meadows, and it has disavowed (via Elders Holland and Oaks?) some of the potential explanations for the priesthood ban that in the past have been floated by a number of influential Mormons (including some GA's). But I'm not aware that it's ever apologized for an institutional action or universally-adopted teaching (as opposed to the actions of members or groups of members who happened to be LDS).

About half the practice of a decent lawyer consists in telling would-be clients that they are darned fools and should stop.
 

--Senator Elihu Root


#4 Wingnut

Wingnut

    A little nutty, with wings

  • Members
  • 10410 posts
  • LocationCleveland, OH

Posted 07 June 2013 - 04:22 PM

For example, Catholics have acknowledged that in the past there has been a blind eye turned towards sexual abuse within the church, and it's now an issue that's being addressed head-on. Has our church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, made mistakes? I'm not referring to when a member or members violates church regulations, I'm wondering more along the lines of the LDS Church as a whole taking responsibility for a mistake made and having to do damage control. Has it ever happened in the history of our Church?


See Official Declarations 1 and 2.
Now the trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. -- C.S. Lewis

If we're going to be stupid about this, we're going to be stupid on my terms. -- my husband

#5 prisonchaplain

prisonchaplain

    Senior Moderator

  • Senior Moderators
  • 12373 posts
  • LocationFederal Way, WA

Posted 07 June 2013 - 04:44 PM

I think the Church (via President Eyring?) has issued a more-or-less apology for Mountain Meadows, and it has disavowed (via Elders Holland and Oaks?) some of the potential explanations for the priesthood ban that in the past have been floated by a number of influential Mormons (including some GA's).

But I'm not aware that it's ever apologized for an institutional action or universally-adopted teaching (as opposed to the actions of members or groups of members who happened to be LDS).


Critics would never be satisfied--even with a full-blown, tear-streaming apology for perceived wrongs. On the other hand, I find it healthy that there is room for correcting opinions-as-doctrine--especially those that were sensitive/difficult and proffered by high-level leaders.

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." -- Lord Acton


#6 annewandering

annewandering

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4317 posts

Posted 07 June 2013 - 05:03 PM

When the church is manned by people it will make mistakes. It was a mistake to not deal with Mountain Meadows Massacre years before. Dont know that it would have made a difference but it would have been the right thing to do. Sometimes mistakes are made, not by the church but by the members as a whole. It has been made clear that if we reject truth then it is taken from us. The United Order is an example. I dont know if polygamy is or not. Anyway, I am sure we could dig up examples if we try hard enough. The point really is that until Christ returns publicly we are going to be making mistakes. Best to recognize them and move on.

#7 selek

selek

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 988 posts

Posted 07 June 2013 - 05:31 PM

See Official Declarations 1 and 2.

Call For References: Where in either of these statements is there an admission that the Church acted wrongly or in error?

It was a mistake to not deal with Mountain Meadows Massacre years before.

Mountain Meadows is something important to me- enough to have researched it and to have made a pilgrimage there.

Out of morbid curiousity, what precisely do you feel we as a Church should have "done" to deal with it?

The Church does not handle law enforcement (and has no business doing so), and the territorial governor assured Church leadership (when the Church itself was pressing for an investigation) that the Massacre was covered under the General Amnesty which ended Buchanan's Folly.

So what, precisely, do you feel should have been done which was not already?

Edited by selek, 07 June 2013 - 05:59 PM.
fixed quote function

2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

#8 annewandering

annewandering

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4317 posts

Posted 07 June 2013 - 05:44 PM

I appreciate that you are defending the church. So am I. The church finally put all the facts together in a book about mountain meadows. It had been used by the antis for years but now they have no grounds for claiming a cover up. They can claim that but we know it is not true. That is what should have been done long ago. It is easier to see that now with hindsight of course. Hindsight is what is useful to see where we should have done something different or better. There is nothing wrong with that if we learn from it. God does not make mistakes. Jesus does not make mistakes. We, however, are neither of them and do make mistakes. We make up the church so the church makes mistakes as we make them. Do you see what I mean, Selek? If not then lets just assume we do not understand what the other is trying to say and let it go at that. :)

#9 selek

selek

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 988 posts

Posted 07 June 2013 - 05:56 PM

I appreciate that you are defending the church. So am I. The church finally put all the facts together in a book about mountain meadows. It had been used by the antis for years but now they have no grounds for claiming a cover up. They can claim that but we know it is not true. That is what should have been done long ago. It is easier to see that now with hindsight of course.


So your argument is not that the Church handles the Massacre itself or the immediate aftermath incorrectly, but that the leadership should have been more proactive in getting a scholarly and reasonably unbiased rendition of what actually happened "on the market", so to speak.

I can see the merits of that argument.

I may not agree with it for a number of reasons, but it's not an unreasonable argument.
2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

#10 annewandering

annewandering

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4317 posts

Posted 07 June 2013 - 06:01 PM

The church didnt do the massacre so its kinda hard to handle that part. :) but yes you have understood what I mean.

#11 Wingnut

Wingnut

    A little nutty, with wings

  • Members
  • 10410 posts
  • LocationCleveland, OH

Posted 07 June 2013 - 06:03 PM

Call For References: Where in either of these statements is there an admission that the Church acted wrongly or in error?


My remark was geared more toward Bini's comments regarding damage control.
Now the trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. -- C.S. Lewis

If we're going to be stupid about this, we're going to be stupid on my terms. -- my husband

#12 rayhale

rayhale

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 330 posts

Posted 09 June 2013 - 02:49 PM

Didn’t the Church apologize about how it handled the issue of homosexuality on mormonsandgays.org? Like apologizing for telling people to marry, even though they really don't love their spouse, as a husband, and wife should. They also did an ‘I’m sorry, but that was the conventional wisdom of the medical professionals,’ form of an apology, when talking about some of the techniques used, by medical professionals, to try to make someone not gay.

Edited by rayhale, 09 June 2013 - 02:56 PM.


#13 selek

selek

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 988 posts

Posted 09 June 2013 - 03:01 PM

Didn’t the Church apologize about how it handled the issue of homosexuality on mormonsandgays.org? Like apologizing for telling people to marry, even though they really don't love their spouse, as a husband, and wife should. They also did an ‘I’m sorry, but that was the conventional wisdom of the medical professionals,’ form of an apology, when talking about some of the techniques used, by medical professionals, to try to make someone not gay.

Got any citations and actual quotes for this?

Or is this just another example of the "The Mormons finally call a homosexual to a leadership position" phenomenon of wishful thinking and self-parody?
2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

#14 LittleWyvern

LittleWyvern

    Senior Member

  • Inactive 1+ months.
  • 1586 posts

Posted 09 June 2013 - 04:04 PM

I think we're comparing apples to oranges here. We can't do this comparison directly to a church like the Catholic Church where the canon of what constitutes doctrine is essentially closed. It's a lot harder for them to admit to have done something or taught something wrong, because where else are they going to go? There is no concept of continuing revelation, so arguments against the practice or doctrine now considered wrong must somehow find a foothold in the past.

In the LDS Church, we have the concept of continuing revelation, which allows our knowledge of doctrines to grow and improve over time. Therefore, we don't say a past practice is wrong, but instead that it was incomplete an action that lacked the knowledge that has since been revealed. This is why President McConkie can say something like this:

Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.


...and be completely consistent. Such a statement would make much less sense in a church with a closed canon.

قُل لَّوْ كَانَ الْبَحْرُ مِدَادًا لِّكَلِمَاتِ رَبِّي لَنَفِدَ الْبَحْرُ قَبْلَ أَن تَنفَدَ كَلِمَاتُ رَبِّي وَلَوْ جِئْنَا بِمِثْلِهِ مَدَدًا


If the ocean were ink wherewith to write the words of God, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than the words of God, even if another ocean was added for its aid.


#15 Just_A_Guy

Just_A_Guy

    Semi-Senior Moderator, and Repentant Sea-Lawyer

  • Senior Moderators
  • 8699 posts
  • LocationUtah County, Utah, USA

Posted 09 June 2013 - 06:18 PM

Got any citations and actual quotes for this?

Or is this just another example of the "The Mormons finally call a homosexual to a leadership position" phenomenon of wishful thinking and self-parody?


No, this rings a bell to me, too. It may have come from a semi-official channel like Elder Jensen or something, but I think there also were some expressions of regret for some of the more extreme tactics used in the prop 8 campaign (though, of course, not for the stance itself or the fact that the church got involved).

About half the practice of a decent lawyer consists in telling would-be clients that they are darned fools and should stop.
 

--Senator Elihu Root


#16 prisonchaplain

prisonchaplain

    Senior Moderator

  • Senior Moderators
  • 12373 posts
  • LocationFederal Way, WA

Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:59 PM

Got any citations and actual quotes for this?

Or is this just another example of the "The Mormons finally call a homosexual to a leadership position" phenomenon of wishful thinking and self-parody?


Several blogs and gay advocacy sites had mention of the "apology" by Elder Jensen. It took me awhile to find a source that would be appropriate to link here.

On Elder Marlin Jensen, Proposition 8 Apologies, and the Future of Mormonism - Flunking Sainthood

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." -- Lord Acton


#17 selek

selek

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 988 posts

Posted 09 June 2013 - 10:37 PM

Several blogs and gay advocacy sites had mention of the "apology" by Elder Jensen. It took me awhile to find a source that would be appropriate to link here.

On Elder Marlin Jensen, Proposition 8 Apologies, and the Future of Mormonism - Flunking Sainthood


Ayep- that was the incident to which I was referring- and the mad scramble of critics, apostates, and fools reading into his statement what they wanted to hear.

Elder Jensen and the Exploitation of the Sacred Moments

President Jensen was neither speaking on behalf of the Church nor authorized to do so, nor were his words accurately recorded in their entirety for all the world to hear.

Every person who promoted this particular bit of foolscap (from John Dehlin to Joanna Brooks to Carol Lynn Pearson) is an outspoken critic of the Church publicly agitating for a variety of concessions on their pet ideologies- and has been demonstrated to be willing to "fudge" things towards that end.

No credible witness believes or suggests that Jensen was making an official apology on behalf of the Church so much as sympathizing with those who are in pain.

There is also a vast world of difference between, "I am sorry that you are hurting" and "I am sorry we hurt you."

Every single hit on the first three pages (and nearly all of the fourth and fifth pages, as well) of Google for the phrase "Marlin K. Jensen apology" goes to an anti-Mormon propaganda site.

Every single one.

Keep in mind also, that this is exactly the same crowd that twisted another of the good Elder's statements to suggest that the Church is dying- despite all evidence to the contrary, and then painted his "emeritus" status as "punishment" for his "moral courage".

Reports of the Death of the Church are Greatly Exaggerated | FAIR Blog

Edited by selek, 09 June 2013 - 10:43 PM.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

#18 rayhale

rayhale

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 330 posts

Posted 10 June 2013 - 03:17 AM

I can’t find the video, but one of the General Authorities made a long interview talking about the gay issue, this was before mormonandgays.org. He did mention that the Church has, in the past, encouraged gays, to marry, and now, they don’t encourage it. Does anyone know what I’m talking about? I think it was ether Elder Bednar, or Oaks (?).

Edited by rayhale, 10 June 2013 - 03:47 AM.


#19 Dravin

Dravin

    Gneiss Guy

  • Members
  • 13105 posts
  • LocationIndiana

Posted 10 June 2013 - 06:30 AM

I can’t find the video, but one of the General Authorities made a long interview talking about the gay issue, this was before mormonandgays.org. He did mention that the Church has, in the past, encouraged gays, to marry, and now, they don’t encourage it. Does anyone know what I’m talking about? I think it was ether Elder Bednar, or Oaks (?).


Are you thinking of this? Interview With Elder Dallin H. Oaks and Elder Lance B. Wickman: Same-Gender Attraction


Snippet concerning therapy:

PUBLIC AFFAIRS: Is therapy of any kind a legitimate course of action if we’re talking about controlling behavior? If a young man says, “Look, I really want these feelings to go away… I would do anything for these feelings to go away,” is it legitimate to look at clinical therapy of some sort that would address those issues?

ELDER WICKMAN: Well, it may be appropriate for that person to seek therapy. Certainly the Church doesn’t counsel against that kind of therapy. But from the standpoint of a parent counseling a person, or a Church leader counseling a person, or a person looking at his or her same-gender attraction from the standpoint of ‘What can I do about it here that’s in keeping with gospel teachings?’ the clinical side of it is not what matters most. What matters most is recognition that ‘I have my own will. I have my own agency. I have the power within myself to control what I do.’

Now, that’s not to say it’s not appropriate for somebody with that affliction to seek appropriate clinical help to examine whether in his or her case there’s something that can be done about it. This is an issue that those in psychiatry, in the psychology professions have debated. Case studies I believe have shown that in some cases there has been progress made in helping someone to change that orientation; in other cases not. From the Church’s standpoint, from our standpoint of concern for people, that’s not where we place our principal focus. It’s on these other matters.

ELDER OAKS: Amen to that. Let me just add one more thought. The Church rarely takes a position on which treatment techniques are appropriate, for medical doctors or for psychiatrists or psychologists and so on.

The second point is that there are abusive practices that have been used in connection with various mental attitudes or feelings. Over-medication in respect to depression is an example that comes to mind. The aversive therapies that have been used in connection with same-sex attraction have contained some serious abuses that have been recognized over time within the professions. While we have no position about what the medical doctors do (except in very, very rare cases — abortion would be such an example), we are conscious that there are abuses and we don’t accept responsibility for those abuses. Even though they are addressed at helping people we would like to see helped, we can’t endorse every kind of technique that’s been used.


Snippet concerning marriage as a remedy:

PUBLIC AFFAIRS: Is heterosexual marriage ever an option for those with homosexual feelings?

ELDER OAKS: We are sometimes asked about whether marriage is a remedy for these feelings that we have been talking about. President Hinckley, faced with the fact that apparently some had believed it to be a remedy, and perhaps that some Church leaders had even counseled marriage as the remedy for these feelings, made this statement: “Marriage should not be viewed as a therapeutic step to solve problems such as homosexual inclinations or practices.” To me that means that we are not going to stand still to put at risk daughters of God who would enter into such marriages under false pretenses or under a cloud unknown to them. Persons who have this kind of challenge that they cannot control could not enter marriage in good faith.

On the other hand, persons who have cleansed themselves of any transgression and who have shown their ability to deal with these feelings or inclinations and put them in the background, and feel a great attraction for a daughter of God and therefore desire to enter marriage and have children and enjoy the blessings of eternity — that’s a situation when marriage would be appropriate.

President Hinckley said that marriage is not a therapeutic step to solve problems.


Edited by Dravin, 10 June 2013 - 06:36 AM.

Hindsight is all well and good... until you trip.

#20 rayhale

rayhale

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 330 posts

Posted 10 June 2013 - 08:45 AM

That looks like what I’m talking about, I wish the video was still available. Reading it, it does look more like, ‘I’m sorry your offended,’ type of an apology, if anything. This is why I love the internet, so I can read, or watch the original, than go on memory alone.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

IPB Skin By Virteq