Son of Perdition

[Bini]

Do you think that there will be any sons of perdition after standing before The Lord in all His glory? I've heard that even the most wicked of men will be consumed by God's presence, that few will actually reject Him, and that most will reside in one of His three Kingdoms.

[jerome1232]

Isn't the whole outer darkness, outer darkness because they won't be getting a single bit of his glory over there. I don't think sons of perdition will be standing anywhere near even a very small fraction of His glory. That and the fact that we are eternal beings with no beginning and no end rules out being *destroyed* in the literal sense to me.

Besides, the type of denial it takes to become a son of perdition is that of someone standing outside in the mojave desert at noon and denying the existence of the sun.

[Bini]

So in THIS life, as a mortal, there is no such thing as a son of perdition? What about Church leaders that have later left and abandoned the LDS gospel? Are they not sons of perdition? Clarification on this would be great.

In addition, if they ARE classified as sons of perdition, will they not receive the chance in the hereafter to re-appeal to The Lord asking for forgiveness? Or, will they automatically be cast into Outer Darkness?

[jerome1232]

A second point, God doesn't do the judging.

From Gospel Principles:

Those Who Will Judge

The Apostle John taught that "the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son" (John 5:22). The Son, in turn, will call upon others to assist in the Judgment. The Twelve who were with him in his ministry will judge the twelve tribes of Israel (see Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30). The Nephite Twelve will judge the Nephite and Lamanite people (see 1 Nephi 12:9-10; Mormon 3:18-19). President John Taylor said the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles in our own dispensation will also judge us (see The Mediation and Atonement, p. 157).

Link

[Dravin]

Bini, I really recommend you read Doctrine and Covenants 76.

[Bini]

A second point, God doesn't do the judging.

From Gospel Principles:

Those Who Will Judge

The Apostle John taught that "the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son" (John 5:22). The Son, in turn, will call upon others to assist in the Judgment. The Twelve who were with him in his ministry will judge the twelve tribes of Israel (see Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30). The Nephite Twelve will judge the Nephite and Lamanite people (see 1 Nephi 12:9-10; Mormon 3:18-19). President John Taylor said the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles in our own dispensation will also judge us (see The Mediation and Atonement, p. 157).

Link

The Lord will not be our judge? Thank you for sharing that. I don't recall ever being taught that in primary or YW's. (Off topic, technically, whenever someone says, "The Lord will be the judge," is totally incorrect.) Wow, I've just been enlightened.

[Just_A_Guy]

The Lord will not be our judge? Thank you for sharing that. I don't recall ever being taught that in primary or YW's. (Off topic, technically, whenever someone says, "The Lord will be the judge," is totally incorrect.) Wow, I've just been enlightened.

I don't quite agree with that interpretation. The Lord (Jehovah--the Son) is most certainly our judge. The fact that, as Jerome says, other people assist in this work (and we really have no idea as to how that works, procedurally), doesn't detract from that.

[annewandering]

If you want names then Cain is a good example.

[Traveler]

So in THIS life, as a mortal, there is no such thing as a son of perdition? What about Church leaders that have later left and abandoned the LDS gospel? Are they not sons of perdition? Clarification on this would be great.

In addition, if they ARE classified as sons of perdition, will they not receive the chance in the hereafter to re-appeal to The Lord asking for forgiveness? Or, will they automatically be cast into Outer Darkness?

I think we need to be careful - sometimes terms like perdition, especially in reference to mortal life are terms of symbilism rather then terms or definate reality.

The Traveler

[Suzie]

What about Church leaders that have later left and abandoned the LDS gospel? Are they not sons of perdition? Clarification on this would be great.

Apostasy of a Church leader doesn't necessarily qualify by itself to become a "son of perdition" but other factors. The person in question must have a sure knowledge of God, like someone who received their Call and election made sure, or someone who has received a vision from God or any other spiritual manifestation of that kind and that AFTER receiving such great experiences, they turn against God and deny it all.

Joseph Smith said (paraphrasing) basically that in order to be a son of perdition the heavens have to literally be open to that person and they know God but after that, they deny Christ and the plan of salvation. In a few words, a person must have a prior perfect knowledge of these things.

Taking into consideration that I don't think there are many people who had these wonderful and spiritual experiences, my bet is that it's pretty darn hard to become a son of perdition (not like anyone want it anyways, right? )

In addition, if they ARE classified as sons of perdition, will they not receive the chance in the hereafter to re-appeal to The Lord asking for forgiveness? Or, will they automatically be cast into Outer Darkness?

“And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows; neither was it revealed neither is neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof; . . .

“Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation”

(D&C: 76:45-46, 48).

[beefche]

In addition, if they ARE classified as sons of perdition, will they not receive the chance in the hereafter to re-appeal to The Lord asking for forgiveness? Or, will they automatically be cast into Outer Darkness?

I think it is difficult for us to understand this as we are not in the same mindset as a son of perdition. But, sons of perdition will not WANT forgiveness. It's not as if they will kneel before God, realize He is our Savior, and then decide that they want the life He can promise. They have made their choice with full knowledge of what they were choosing. Once they made that choice, there is no forgiveness.

Again, I think reading D&C 76 will help with the understanding.

[estradling75]

In the end... It is about choice... (not lip service but what we actively choose and seek for)

Christ is our teacher... He is there to teach us about what he can offer us, and the consequence of sin. So that we might make good choices.

Many of us don't understand (at least not fully) so he continues to work with us until we do. He works with us until we get it and choose.

This leads to a built in limit... Once you fully get it, once you fully understand... Once there is nothing else that he can teach a person about it... Then if they do not choose him well then there really is nothing left for God to do because God respects our agency. There is nothing left for God to do after a fully informed and fully understood choice is made that wouldn't violate the agency of the person he is working with.

[ElectofGod]

If I remember correctly, The whole Christ delegating his judgments to the 12 is only for the righteous, Christ will still judge the wicked himself.

“Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation” (Mark 3:28–29).

One must receive a witness of Christ through the holy ghost or as defined here is a witness by the holy ghost while gazing into heaven. The holy Ghost than testifies that those things are true and not a Satan counterfeit.

"The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that you commit murder wherein you shed innocent blood, and assent to my death, after you have received my new and everlasting covenant, says the Lord God.." D&C 132:27

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Heb 6:4-6

So who are they?

"Thus says the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers of it, and allowed themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power-- They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born; For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity; Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come-- Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him to themselves and put him to an open shame. These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels-- And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; Yes, surely, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath. D&C 76:31-38

After what sufferings?

"For see, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I." D&C 19:16-17

Most these notes were taken here: LDS (Mormonism) Deep Doctrine: Requirements to Commit the Unpardonable Sin

I'm a lazy poster sometimes

[ElectofGod]

Taking into consideration that I don't think there are many people who had these wonderful and spiritual experiences, my bet is that it's pretty darn hard to become a son of perdition (not like anyone want it anyways, right? )

“And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows; neither was it revealed neither is neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof; . . .

“Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation”

Than there is a verse that states:

47 Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again;

49 And we heard the voice, saying: Write the vision, for lo, this is the end of the vision of the sufferings of the ungodly.

(D&C: 76:45-46, 48).

Great post suzie,

I don't think there are many people who had these wonderful and spiritual experiences

The sad truth. As Uchdortf says, we are living far beneath our privileges as a people. We don't believe it will happen so it doesn't. Including myself.

Edited July 10, 2013 by ElectofGod

[Smeagums]

So in THIS life, as a mortal, there is no such thing as a son of perdition? What about Church leaders that have later left and abandoned the LDS gospel? Are they not sons of perdition? Clarification on this would be great.

In addition, if they ARE classified as sons of perdition, will they not receive the chance in the hereafter to re-appeal to The Lord asking for forgiveness? Or, will they automatically be cast into Outer Darkness?

Not unless they've conversed with the Lord through the veil. You have to deny Him after Knowing Him.

[Blackmarch]

Do you think that there will be any sons of perdition after standing before The Lord in all His glory? I've heard that even the most wicked of men will be consumed by God's presence, that few will actually reject Him, and that most will reside in one of His three Kingdoms.

well everybody is going to receive a resurrected body before they stand before the Judgement bar of God... they might be on fire for the period but they won't be destroyed.... Well folks were able to reject god before coming to earth, so I imagine there will be a few that change their minds from choosing Gods plan after have coming to earth (but i'm in the camp that believes that number won't compare to the ones that make it into any of the kingdoms of heaven)

[Seminarysnoozer]

In the end... It is about choice... (not lip service but what we actively choose and seek for)

Christ is our teacher... He is there to teach us about what he can offer us, and the consequence of sin. So that we might make good choices.

Many of us don't understand (at least not fully) so he continues to work with us until we do. He works with us until we get it and choose.

This leads to a built in limit... Once you fully get it, once you fully understand... Once there is nothing else that he can teach a person about it... Then if they do not choose him well then there really is nothing left for God to do because God respects our agency. There is nothing left for God to do after a fully informed and fully understood choice is made that wouldn't violate the agency of the person he is working with.

We all understood fully at the point of finish of the first estate. We understood all that we could understand by someone teaching principles of truth.

The second estate test is to see if we would do what we said we believed in before this life began but under the circumstances of having to do it in "the flesh" meaning by faith (not pure knowledge). The test itself, in other words, is one of not having full knowledge in this life. The "full knowledge" test occurred first, the first estate test.

After the second estate test occurs, we will regain our knowledge by which we will have full guilt of our actions and realize how short we fell from our potential, thereby, being judged of our works while not having full knowledge.

Alma 41: " 3 And it is requisite with the justice of God that men should be judged according to their works; and if their works were good in this life, and the desires of their hearts were good, that they should also, at the last day, be restored unto that which is good.

4 And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame—mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption—raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other—

5 The one raised to ahappiness according to his desires of happiness, or good according to his desires of good; and the other to evil according to his desires of evil; for as he has desired to do evil all the day long even so shall he have his reward of evil when the night cometh."

It is based in what they desired while they were in the day; "all day long", in other words, while they were alive (mortal) before "the night cometh", before death.

[Dlowellbrown]

My apologies if someone already pointed this out. Joseph Smith taught in the King Follett discourse, "All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has go to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy...."

I can only speak for my own speculation, but i think that the number of people who have received the kind of knowledge referred to here and then denied it is probably very small.

[Martain]

Do you think that there will be any sons of perdition after standing before The Lord in all His glory? I've heard that even the most wicked of men will be consumed by God's presence, that few will actually reject Him, and that most will reside in one of His three Kingdoms.

All of Adam's children will return to the presence of Jesus Christ and there stand before his glory and majesty to receive his Judgement assisted as that judgement will be by the Apostles and others before going forth to their respective glory and reward. For those who are of perdition, such an experience will in of itself be very painful.

While our spirits can die, such a death is pertaining unto receiving and living in righteousness with God. Our spirits can not actually be destroyed in the sense of ceasing to exist though many will desire such rather than come before him.

Any mortal individual who is not quickened by the Spirit to withstand the Glory of God, would be consumed by his Glory in that their mortal tabernacle would die on the spot should he visit them in the flesh. This is the consuming you have read and speak of and it different from what occurs when we either in spirit or as resurrected beings stand before the Lord in His Glory.

[iinarihoudai]

DowellBrown I was going to post the same thing. Great minds?

[ElectofGod]

well everybody is going to receive a resurrected body before they stand before the Judgement bar of God... they might be on fire for the period but they won't be destroyed.... Well folks were able to reject god before coming to earth, so I imagine there will be a few that change their minds from choosing Gods plan after have coming to earth (but i'm in the camp that believes that number won't compare to the ones that make it into any of the kingdoms of heaven)

Maybe so but I tend to think it will be a repetitive 1/3... Than again in the next life... 1/3... Until all are perfected in the bosom of eternity or assigned to the glory of the lower kingdoms.

Look around us. How many are choosing God? VERY FEW. After all the 10 virgins story tends to make it seem like 50% will be telestial than the terrestial and celestial will get a chance to prove themselves further. Until they are assigned their glory of a terrestial, celestial world. So how many is left? VERY FEW.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Maybe so but I tend to think it will be a repetitive 1/3... Than again in the next life... 1/3... Until all are perfected in the bosom of eternity or assigned to the glory of the lower kingdoms.

Look around us. How many are choosing God? VERY FEW. After all the 10 virgins story tends to make it seem like 50% will be telestial than the terrestial and celestial will get a chance to prove themselves further. Until they are assigned their glory of a terrestial, celestial world. So how many is left? VERY FEW.

Look around you! Everyone you see chose God's plan! One cannot fail the test they already passed. This view allows us to forgive everyone around us and that is the view we are supposed to have of our neighbors. Why do you think Christ said so easily, forgive them for they know not what they do? ... because He knows of their stated choice without the veil.

This life is not the first estate test again. It is a different test, to stratify the one's who chose God's plan. Everyone here was faithful in the premortal life. There were some more valiant than others in their faith, but all were faithful enough to receive a passing grade.

[ElectofGod]

Look around you! Everyone you see chose God's plan! One cannot fail the test they already passed. This view allows us to forgive everyone around us and that is the view we are supposed to have of our neighbors. Why do you think Christ said so easily, forgive them for they know not what they do? ... because He knows of their stated choice without the veil.

This life is not the first estate test again. It is a different test, to stratify the one's who chose God's plan. Everyone here was faithful in the premortal life. There were some more valiant than others in their faith, but all were faithful enough to receive a passing grade.

A telestial or a terrestial world is not a passing grade. It fails the purpose of existence. The ability to have an eternal family. Though I did mis-read the original post where he was talking about the resurrected body only. So in that he was right.

[Seminarysnoozer]

A telestial or a terrestial world is not a passing grade. It fails the purpose of existence. The ability to have an eternal family. Though I did mis-read the original post where he was talking about the resurrected body only. So in that he was right.

How is there glory in failure?

[Martain]

The thought that I will not make it home to a Celestial Glory, that all I have sacrificed and will yet sacrifice would still be insufficient for that prize has at times been so painful to picture as to cause me to feel within my heart a longing for annihilation rather than receive something less.

Knowing that God's foreknowledge was such that he knew even before I came here whether or not I would return unto him has at times also caused to well up the sentiment that I would rather have stayed a spirit by his side for eternity than to come down and receive a body only to fail to return home to Him.

Adversity due to the iniquity of others has at times been so painful in my life as to lead me to plead for the Lord to heal me or end my life. Yet such prayers lead to contemplating why the Lord sent me here and what work he had in store for me to do. Words can not express the feelings of shame I would have in returning having left my mission unfinished and let him down in such a way.

I say all these things so that you may know that I do understand very much so why you say that "A telestial or a terrestrial world is not a passing grade." and that, "It fails the purpose of existence." but we must have more faith in His plan than that.

There is no such thing as annihilation and none of us will ever cease to exist and as such we must conclude that those in the other kingdoms will find happiness and contentment and even joy therein. There would be no point to the other kingdoms of Glory if those who receive them would forever be mourning having not received something more. Though they may have once longed for something more, they will recognize their rewards as both just and merciful and will be happy with their reward.

A telestial or terrestrial glory is a passing grade and while it fails the major purpose of obtaining an eternal family, succeeds in the major purpose of coming and obtaining a body. The glory and good news of the gospel is that all will be saved save those of perdition in a kingdom of glory wherein all will find happiness and even joy in their reward. The choice being ours as to what degree of reward we desire to obtain and the gospel reveals to us what rewards are specific to the Celestial Kingdom so as to entice us to seek for the heights instead of settling for the hills.

D&C 76

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—

41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them ...