Son of Perdition


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Good afternoon ElectofGod. I hope you are well today! :)

The sad truth. As Uchdortf says, we are living far beneath our privileges as a people. We don't believe it will happen so it doesn't. Including myself.

How to communicate this to others? All people are able to experience the blessings that Nephi experienced. All people are able to experience the blessings that Alma, Ammon, and Aaron experienced. All people are able to have the heavens open to them and to have this witness by the Holy Ghost.

There is a notion in the Church that seems so prevalent everywhere I go. This notion is that these special blessings and experiences that we read about in the scriptures are just reserved for the prophets or these "special" people or that the miracles we read about are meant for another time and another people. What people don't seem to understand is that we are ALL "special". If we but dedicate ourselves and follow the examples given in the scriptures with exactness. If we patiently and diligently begin to serve the Lord and to seek after His wisdom with all of our heart, might, mind, and strength then we will have access to the same blessings as the prophets. If we pray without ceasing and endure all things that God requires of us, then we can have the same blessings as the brother of Jared.

Regards,

Finrock

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Good afternoon ElectofGod. I hope you are well today! :)

How to communicate this to others? All people are able to experience the blessings that Nephi experienced. All people are able to experience the blessings that Alma, Ammon, and Aaron experienced. All people are able to have the heavens open to them and to have this witness by the Holy Ghost.

There is a notion in the Church that seems so prevalent everywhere I go. This notion is that these special blessings and experiences that we read about in the scriptures are just reserved for the prophets or these "special" people or that the miracles we read about are meant for another time and another people. What people don't seem to understand is that we are ALL "special". If we but dedicate ourselves and follow the examples given in the scriptures with exactness. If we patiently and diligently begin to serve the Lord and to seek after His wisdom with all of our heart, might, mind, and strength then we will have access to the same blessings as the prophets. If we pray without ceasing and endure all things that God requires of us, then we can have the same blessings as the brother of Jared.

Regards,

Finrock

I gave this exact lesson to the elders quorum. I still got at the end by people, meh its not going to happen to me. I even followed the McConkie talk in conference without going off it. To error on the side of caution of not stating something I shouldn't.

How to gain personal revelation - 1980 - June??? - General Conference. It outlines exactly what you stated using nothing but Joseph Smith quotes almost too.

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There may be truth to what you say about being content whatever glory we are at. I struggle with this concept myself.

I have never been able to find a quote to backup my thoughts on this until recently. I will post it as a pondering tool for others. Take it or leave it. There is no doctrine on the matter.

"Words of the Prophet", p. 24 ("Scriptural Items"); Scribe: Franklin D. Richards, August 1, 1843; CHO Ms/d/4409/Misc Minutes Collection.

Hiram [smith] said Aug 1st [18]43 Those of the Terrestrial Glory either advance to the Celestial or recede to the Telestial [or] else the moon could not be a type [viz. a symbol of that kingdom]. [for] it [the moon] "waxes & wanes". Also that br George will be quickened by celestial glory having been ministered to by one of that Kingdom.

Edited by ElectofGod
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Yes that was my point contrary to Electofgod's comment that people in the Terrestrial and Telestial kingdom failed the purpose of their existence.

Purpose of existence is to be with God again. They will never be with God again. Unless of course they repent to what ever capacity is given to them in the next life. Though you could say they still filled the measure of their creation.

Edited by ElectofGod
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Good afternoon ElectofGod. I hope you're having a good day! :)

I gave this exact lesson to the elders quorum. I still got at the end by people, meh its not going to happen to me. I even followed the McConkie talk in conference without going off it. To error on the side of caution of not stating something I shouldn't.

How to gain personal revelation - 1980 - June??? - General Conference. It outlines exactly what you stated using nothing but Joseph Smith quotes almost too.

Thanks for providing me the information on that article. I was not aware of it and I had not read it before I posted my comments. My thoughts were revealed to me by the Spirit. It is interesting to see how the Spirit reveals the same truth today as He did in 1980.

I couldn't find the talk in a conference setting but I did find it in a New Era article: How to Get Personal Revelation.

Regards,

Finrock

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I just wanted to add this quote. Emphasis is original unless otherwise noted:

It is true that you can reason about doctrinal matters, but you do not get religion into your life until it becomes a matter of personal experience—until you feel something in your soul, until there has been a change made in your heart, until you become a new creature of the Holy Ghost. Providentially, every member of the Church has the opportunity to do this because, in connection with baptism, every member of the Church has the hands of a legal administrator placed on his head, and he is given the promise, “Receive the Holy Ghost.” He thus obtains “the gift of the Holy Ghost” which, by definition, means that he then has the right to the constant companionship of this member of the Godhead, based upon his personal righteousness and faithfulness.

Now I say that we are entitled to revelation. I say that every member of the Church, independent and irrespective of any position that he may hold, is entitled to get revelation from the Holy Ghost; he is entitled to entertain angels; he is entitled to view the visions of eternity; and if we would like to go the full measure, he is entitled to see God the same way that any prophet in literal and actual reality has seen the face of Deity (emphasis added).

We talk about latter-day prophets; we think in terms of prophets who tell the future destiny of the Church and the world. But, in addition to that, the fact is that every person should be a prophet for himself and in his own concerns and in his own affairs. It was Moses who said, “Would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them” (Num. 11:29).

It was Paul who said, “Covet to prophesy” (1 Cor. 14:39).

They counsel that, with all our heart and with all our strength, as individuals, for our private and personal concerns, we should seek the gift of prophecy.

Regards,

Finrock

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I just wanted to add this quote. Emphasis is original unless otherwise noted:

It is true that you can reason about doctrinal matters, but you do not get religion into your life until it becomes a matter of personal experience—until you feel something in your soul, until there has been a change made in your heart, until you become a new creature of the Holy Ghost. Providentially, every member of the Church has the opportunity to do this because, in connection with baptism, every member of the Church has the hands of a legal administrator placed on his head, and he is given the promise, “Receive the Holy Ghost.” He thus obtains “the gift of the Holy Ghost” which, by definition, means that he then has the right to the constant companionship of this member of the Godhead, based upon his personal righteousness and faithfulness.

Now I say that we are entitled to revelation. I say that every member of the Church, independent and irrespective of any position that he may hold, is entitled to get revelation from the Holy Ghost; he is entitled to entertain angels; he is entitled to view the visions of eternity; and if we would like to go the full measure, he is entitled to see God the same way that any prophet in literal and actual reality has seen the face of Deity (emphasis added).

We talk about latter-day prophets; we think in terms of prophets who tell the future destiny of the Church and the world. But, in addition to that, the fact is that every person should be a prophet for himself and in his own concerns and in his own affairs. It was Moses who said, “Would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them” (Num. 11:29).

It was Paul who said, “Covet to prophesy” (1 Cor. 14:39).

They counsel that, with all our heart and with all our strength, as individuals, for our private and personal concerns, we should seek the gift of prophecy.

Regards,

Finrock

I was not aware of the talk either. I actualyl came across teh talk looking for that exact subject matter. When I approach a subject like that at church I will find Conference talks or era talks that relate it very close to my desires. This way others won't feel like I am teaching something new. I think the lord led me to that talk.

Interesting you highlighted those parts. That is what I focused on. Additional info below just for information for those interested.

The commentary is myself.

What did Moses try to do for his people? Lead them to the promised land… Why?

D&C 84: 23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might cbehold the face of God;

24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his bpresence; therefore, the Lord in his cwrath, for his danger was kindled against them, swore that they should not eenter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

What blessings should be had for those who have been to the promised land? If we are not having those blessings in our life are we rejecting God just like the Israelites? The land of promise is a land that knows god.

Lets quote some more of the king follet discourse.

“I want to ask this congregation, every man, woman and child, to answer the question in their own hearts, what kind of a being God is? Ask yourselves ; turn your thoughts into your hearts, and say if any of you have seen, heard, or communed with Him? This is a question that may occupy your attention for a long time. I again repeat the question—What kind of being is God? Does any man or woman know? Have any of you seen Him, heard Him, or communed with Him? [This is the question asked, now see what his answer is for it!] Here is the question that will, peradventure, from this time henceforth occupy your attention. The scriptures inform us that “this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3.)

If any man does not know God, and inquires what kind of a being He is—if he will search diligently his own heart—if the declaration of Jesus and the apostles be true, he will realize that he has not eternal life; for there can be eternal life on no other principle.”

No man is a minister of Jesus Christ, without being a Prophet. No man can be the minister of Jesus Christ, except he has the testimony of Jesus & this is the Spirit of Prophecy. 18 Whenever Salvation has been adminsitered it has been by Testimony. Men at the present time testify of Heaven & of hell, & have never seen either—& I will say that no man knows these things without this.

Words of Joseph Smith - Deluxe Study Edition including the LDS Standar Works, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Lectures on Faith, History of the Church, History of Joseph by His Mother, and More (Kindle Locations 388-391). Packard Technologies. Kindle Edition.

What is the first principle of the gospel? Fourth article of faith states, faith in the lord Jesus Christ. This was written in 1842 by Joseph Smith in the Wentworth letter.

In the year April 7 1844 he further explained what this meant. He explains what it means to have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. The king follet discourse states, “It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another (#1), and that He was once a man like us (#2); yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth (#3), the same as Jesus Christ Himself did (#4); and I will show it from the Bible.”

Jesus Christ is no different than any of us. He is a Man that we may converse with, that if we saw him this instance, he would be like us, that his Father dwelt on an earth like this one, and finally he did so just like Christ did.

It is this principle that one becomes the son of perdition. When one knows God they are capable of falling. Basically when one has been promised eternal life with God and they deny that gift they are cast out of heaven.

1 Corinthians 13:12

For now we see through a glass [mirror], darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

By looking in the mirror we shall be like him and see Him. For we are created in His image. As we grow from glory to glroy as mentioned in the verse below

2 Corinthians 3:16 Nevertheless when it[we] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass [mirror] the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

king follet discourse: “If men do not comprehend the character of God, they do not comprehend themselves.”(...ensign/1971/04/the-king-follett-sermon) Why is that? How does this relate to knowing God? Do we know ourselves by knowing God? Or do we know God by knowing ourselves? When do we become like God? What image were we made of? Whos countenance? What changes us or is it always there?

Fascinating stuff to ponder.

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Purpose of existence is to be with God again. They will never be with God again. Unless of course they repent to what ever capacity is given to them in the next life. Though you could say they still filled the measure of their creation.

Part of the purpose of this life is to bring about immortality of man too, not just Eternal life. There is value to immortality, it is part of God's work and glory. I don't think I would call it a loss or failure if it is part of God's work and glory. He certainly finds value in it even if you don't.

People in the Telestial Kingdom have paid for their own sins in spirit prison until after the millennium and then they are resurrected. The resurrected state of the Telestial Kingdom is one in which enjoys the influence of the Holy Ghost and are visited by angels. Tell me, what person who still needs repentance can enjoy the company of the Holy Ghost or be visited by angels?

They will receive happiness and glory beyond anything experienced here in this world.

Outer darkness is the only place outside the presence (direct or indirect) of God.

At the end of judgement, there is no further justice needed. The price for everything has been paid in one form or another. The only way Christ could offer another redeeming loan (after it was rejected in the second estate test) to souls is by way of the Fall in which a Savior could offer His life to pay for those sins and we don't believe in reincarnation or having another mortal experience. We also believe that God will get it right the first time, He won't change His mind about that judgement. If a Telestial resurrected being actually merits a Terrestrial glorified body then that suggests God got it wrong the first time.

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Part of the purpose of this life is to bring about immortality of man too, not just Eternal life. There is value to immortality, it is part of God's work and glory. I don't think I would call it a loss or failure if it is part of God's work and glory. He certainly finds value in it even if you don't.

I might have to reconsider this. I do believe we are all organized to fulfill the measure of our creation. Still the way I think it comes about is entirely different than you from the posts below.

People in the Telestial Kingdom have paid for their own sins in spirit prison until after the millennium and then they are resurrected. The resurrected state of the Telestial Kingdom is one in which enjoys the influence of the Holy Ghost and are visited by angels. Tell me, what person who still needs repentance can enjoy the company of the Holy Ghost or be visited by angels?

Reminds you of the world we now live doesn't it? After all don't we have the HG and angels? Though we are told it has glory while the world we live in doesn't have glory?

They will receive happiness and glory beyond anything experienced here in this world.

Outer darkness is the only place outside the presence (direct or indirect) of God.

At the end of judgement, there is no further justice needed. The price for everything has been paid in one form or another. The only way Christ could offer another redeeming loan (after it was rejected in the second estate test) to souls is by way of the Fall in which a Savior could offer His life to pay for those sins and we don't believe in reincarnation or having another mortal experience. We also believe that God will get it right the first time, He won't change His mind about that judgement. If a Telestial resurrected being actually merits a Terrestrial glorified body then that suggests God got it wrong the first time.

Even if what you were denying was true, it would have nothing to do with him getting it wrong. His perfect infinite knowledge knows what is needed for every soul to come unto Christ. He knows what they must experience and if and when one will get there.

The question I ask will their EVER be another telestial world in existence? In the millions of worlds that are to be created by all the people in the heavens that arrive to that station of the Gods? Did our Christ suffer for them too? Likewise, "how is that consistent with only do that which has been done in other worlds"? What were the worlds that God grew up in to prove himself? Who redeemed our Heavenly Father if he proved himself just like Christ did? Can a son redeem his own father if the son "didn't even exist yet".

When you say "we" you do not include me in some of your thoughts there. Also, I do not believe in reincarnation as its a very false belief. I know some of the original 12 to JS tried to teach a form of it. I think it was in the book The Seer. Even Joseph Smith denounced reincarnation if I remember right.

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Even if what you were denying was true, it would have nothing to do with him getting it wrong. His perfect infinite knowledge knows what is needed for every soul to come unto Christ. He knows what they must experience and if and when one will get there.

The question I ask will their EVER be another telestial world in existence? In the millions of worlds that are to be created by all the people in the heavens that arrive to that station of the Gods? Did our Christ suffer for them too? Likewise, "how is that consistent with only do that which has been done in other worlds"? What were the worlds that God grew up in to prove himself? Who redeemed our Heavenly Father if he proved himself just like Christ did? Can a son redeem his own father if the son "didn't even exist yet".

When you say "we" you do not include me in some of your thoughts there. Also, I do not believe in reincarnation as its a very false belief. I know some of the original 12 to JS tried to teach a form of it. I think it was in the book The Seer. Even Joseph Smith denounced reincarnation if I remember right.

Now is the time. There are many scriptures and quotes from the brethren that say such. There is no time after this time to make change. Before we came here we were matured fully developed spirit children. All here have proven their faithfulness by keeping the first estate. The test now is to see, to what degree are we faithful. The answer to that question is a testament to our nature of our being. That nature does not somehow change down the road. We are who we are after the time to change has passed. Justice is fully served, justified by the proof of this life about who we really are. In other words, if we were to take the test over again a hundred times, the result would be the same every time because God judges correctly with every go. I don't see a future test in which some would have proven the first test invalid.

If there was a repeat test then either the first time it was graded incorrectly or the person somehow changed their nature. Our nature is set, we are mature intelligences. That doesn't mean we can't continue to learn and grow, just that our basic characteristics and desires of the heart are set. We are simply justifying those natures with physically showing that we will do what we said we would before this life began and thus realizing our potential, we are bringing to pass our potential.

Like if I told my son he would make a great doctor, he is not a doctor yet until he goes through medical school, he is only 17 right now. I can tell that he would make a great doctor by his disposition and grades etc. and having worked in the medical field myself. But he isn't a doctor yet. And if he wants to be a doctor like he has expressed he would, he likely could, he just has to show it and do it. I can't call him a doctor until he goes through the steps. If he goes to school and then decides to do something else, I wouldn't have him repeat the process so that one day he could be a doctor, he would have chosen something else. Likewise, if we chose by our actions to be something other than Celestial, God is not going to make us choose that over an over again until somehow we choose Celestial because he would have gotten it right the first time.

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Good Afternoon Seminarysnoozer! I hope you have been doing well. :)

Part of the purpose of this life is to bring about immortality of man too, not just Eternal life. There is value to immortality, it is part of God's work and glory. I don't think I would call it a loss or failure if it is part of God's work and glory. He certainly finds value in it even if you don't.

The scripture reads that God's work and glory is to bring to pass immortality AND eternal life. It is not immortality and/or eternal life. You can't divorce eternal life from this statement because then you are teaching your own doctrine and not the doctrine found in scripture.

God does not desire for us anything less than perfection. He actually wants all of His children to accept the fullness of the gospel and He is saddened by the fact that some of His children will not receive the fullness of the gospel because He wants ALL of His children to have a fullness of joy.

Regards,

Finrock

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Now is the time. There are many scriptures and quotes from the brethren that say such. There is no time after this time to make change. Before we came here we were matured fully developed spirit children. All here have proven their faithfulness by keeping the first estate. The test now is to see, to what degree are we faithful. The answer to that question is a testament to our nature of our being. That nature does not somehow change down the road. We are who we are after the time to change has passed. Justice is fully served, justified by the proof of this life about who we really are. In other words, if we were to take the test over again a hundred times, the result would be the same every time because God judges correctly with every go. I don't see a future test in which some would have proven the first test invalid.

If there was a repeat test then either the first time it was graded incorrectly or the person somehow changed their nature. Our nature is set, we are mature intelligences. That doesn't mean we can't continue to learn and grow, just that our basic characteristics and desires of the heart are set. We are simply justifying those natures with physically showing that we will do what we said we would before this life began and thus realizing our potential, we are bringing to pass our potential.

Like if I told my son he would make a great doctor, he is not a doctor yet until he goes through medical school, he is only 17 right now. I can tell that he would make a great doctor by his disposition and grades etc. and having worked in the medical field myself. But he isn't a doctor yet. And if he wants to be a doctor like he has expressed he would, he likely could, he just has to show it and do it. I can't call him a doctor until he goes through the steps. If he goes to school and then decides to do something else, I wouldn't have him repeat the process so that one day he could be a doctor, he would have chosen something else. Likewise, if we chose by our actions to be something other than Celestial, God is not going to make us choose that over an over again until somehow we choose Celestial because he would have gotten it right the first time.

There are dozens of pages and forums that bring up this concept. Lets just leave it up to those to discuss this. I don't believe in the doctrine as many call Multiple Mortal Probation's. I do believe in the doctrine of Eternal Lives. I have received too many witnesses to deny it. I would be rejecting the truth I have received which would come against me in the day of judgment. My understanding of it is more clear than most things of the gospel. Not to say I understand it as I know almost nothing.

But you state a) we can progress and learn BUT b) our natures never change? Than what progresses and grows? That doesn't quite fit. The question is do we in THIS life change our natures? Or are our natures only being tested? Than I might add, were we organized in an imperfect manner to not have the "nature" of our beings capable of being like God? Otherwards, the measure of the creation is limited to what our "intelligence" is made up of?

There is some truth to those statements but I do see them mostly to be false.

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There are dozens of pages and forums that bring up this concept. Lets just leave it up to those to discuss this. I don't believe in the doctrine as many call Multiple Mortal Probation's. I do believe in the doctrine of Eternal Lives. I have received too many witnesses to deny it. I would be rejecting the truth I have received which would come against me in the day of judgment. My understanding of it is more clear than most things of the gospel. Not to say I understand it as I know almost nothing.

But you state a) we can progress and learn BUT b) our natures never change? Than what progresses and grows? That doesn't quite fit. The question is do we in THIS life change our natures? Or are our natures only being tested? Than I might add, were we organized in an imperfect manner to not have the "nature" of our beings capable of being like God? Otherwards, the measure of the creation is limited to what our "intelligence" is made up of?

There is some truth to those statements but I do see them mostly to be false.

That is why I was trying to use the example of my son.

Thanks for your discussion, I appreciate the exchange, it helps me understand my own beliefs and opens other areas for me. Thank you.

I think one attempt to answer your question is with another, do you think God has eternal progression? And does His nature change?

The other answer to your question comes with what it means "to bring to pass". If God's work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, then we have a summary description of the purpose of this life. Not everyone requires change. There are those souls who die with maybe one day in this world who go straight to the Celestial Kingdom. Even though, maybe, change is what happens to some here, it is not a necessary bridge that we all have to pass. All of us that live past the age of 8 though have fallen to the point of needing faith and repentance and the Saviors atonement to return to a non-fallen state. So in those past the age of 8 there is a need to change but it is a change back from the change (the fall). When we talk about things like a might change of heart we have to remember that is needed because of the Fall. We fell therefore we need to be saved from the fall and return to our previous state. The process of which reveals our true nature - Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial.

As we know God's work is "to bring to pass" then He can't just say, "I see that you are a Celestial soul, enter into the Celestial Kingdom." God has to bring it to pass not just reveal the potential. All the reasons for us having to pass through the steps, I cannot say. But we do know that there is value to God in having completed the bringing about of the immortality and eternal life of man and not just recognizing the potential for it. The completion or the doing of the act is valuable. This is why this test is described as seeing if we will do the things we are asked to do (second estate test) and not just say we would (first estate test).

I've explained it to my kids this way. A new recruit may say in boot camp, 'I would never leave a fellow soldier behind'. But, in the heat of the battle, the true hero's are not the ones who just say they believe that is the right thing to do but they are the one's who, despite their body telling them 'run', they go back into the danger, risking their own lives to help someone else, like they said they would. They actually do the thing they said they would. Likewise, we all said we believe in Christ, we believe in this plan, now it is a test to see if we actually do what we said we would, it is a test of character, a test of integrity. Once the test of character is done, God doesn't have to prove one's character again. There is no need to repeat the second estate test again.

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That is why I was trying to use the example of my son.

Thanks for your discussion, I appreciate the exchange, it helps me understand my own beliefs and opens other areas for me. Thank you.

I think one attempt to answer your question is with another, do you think God has eternal progression? And does His nature change?

The other answer to your question comes with what it means "to bring to pass". If God's work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, then we have a summary description of the purpose of this life. Not everyone requires change. There are those souls who die with maybe one day in this world who go straight to the Celestial Kingdom. Even though, maybe, change is what happens to some here, it is not a necessary bridge that we all have to pass. All of us that live past the age of 8 though have fallen to the point of needing faith and repentance and the Saviors atonement to return to a non-fallen state. So in those past the age of 8 there is a need to change but it is a change back from the change (the fall). When we talk about things like a might change of heart we have to remember that is needed because of the Fall. We fell therefore we need to be saved from the fall and return to our previous state. The process of which reveals our true nature - Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial.

As we know God's work is "to bring to pass" then He can't just say, "I see that you are a Celestial soul, enter into the Celestial Kingdom." God has to bring it to pass not just reveal the potential. All the reasons for us having to pass through the steps, I cannot say. But we do know that there is value to God in having completed the bringing about of the immortality and eternal life of man and not just recognizing the potential for it. The completion or the doing of the act is valuable. This is why this test is described as seeing if we will do the things we are asked to do (second estate test) and not just say we would (first estate test).

I've explained it to my kids this way. A new recruit may say in boot camp, 'I would never leave a fellow soldier behind'. But, in the heat of the battle, the true hero's are not the ones who just say they believe that is the right thing to do but they are the one's who, despite their body telling them 'run', they go back into the danger, risking their own lives to help someone else, like they said they would. They actually do the thing they said they would. Likewise, we all said we believe in Christ, we believe in this plan, now it is a test to see if we actually do what we said we would, it is a test of character, a test of integrity. Once the test of character is done, God doesn't have to prove one's character again. There is no need to repeat the second estate test again.

This feels right to me too as you stated it here. However, the questions you bring up I have never found an answer to except by believing in the Doctrine of Eternal lives. If you want to learn that or know of it, well not here ;). But, its the only belief that can answer the "why" of every question and statement in your response. The difference between, a child who dies and one who does not.

Lets look at this question. Since the OP is long gone by now :D

I think one attempt to answer your question is with another, do you think God has eternal progression? And does His nature change?

Eternal Progression? No. Only with dominion, thrones, and principalities.

Does His nature change? No. From the limited mind set of TIME at least. But that is because he already developed his nature into Perfection.

Yet I believe one can change His nature, IF they are willing to all things heavenly father gives them, into that same being. That nature can be learned by subjecting oneself to true messengers. Such as the change of heart is the process that one has allowed the Holy Ghost to enter and be touched by the Holy Spirit. THAT is what changes our natural man tendencies and allows one to overcome the man subjecting the soul to the body. It is the spirit that changes our natures not US doing anything but ALLOWING it to. Thus life allows us to see if we will restrict the spirit of God in our life.

Thus the phrase "repent or ye must suffer even as I"... They will suffer until they allow that spirit in their life. And what happens when that spirit enters? It changes them (quickens). The same way it does here.

So maybe you are right our natures never change but our ability to allow our TRUE nature which is the image of God, to enlighten us?

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This feels right to me too as you stated it here. However, the questions you bring up I have never found an answer to except by believing in the Doctrine of Eternal lives. If you want to learn that or know of it, well not here ;). But, its the only belief that can answer the "why" of every question and statement in your response. The difference between, a child who dies and one who does not.

Lets look at this question. Since the OP is long gone by now :D

Eternal Progression? No. Only with dominion, thrones, and principalities.

Does His nature change? No. From the limited mind set of TIME at least. But that is because he already developed his nature into Perfection.

Yet I believe one can change His nature, IF they are willing to all things heavenly father gives them, into that same being. That nature can be learned by subjecting oneself to true messengers. Such as the change of heart is the process that one has allowed the Holy Ghost to enter and be touched by the Holy Spirit. THAT is what changes our natural man tendencies and allows one to overcome the man subjecting the soul to the body. It is the spirit that changes our natures not US doing anything but ALLOWING it to. Thus life allows us to see if we will restrict the spirit of God in our life.

Thus the phrase "repent or ye must suffer even as I"... They will suffer until they allow that spirit in their life. And what happens when that spirit enters? It changes them (quickens). The same way it does here.

So maybe you are right our natures never change but our ability to allow our TRUE nature which is the image of God, to enlighten us?

Thanks, what makes the discussion difficult too is that we are currently of a different nature than our true nature, we are in a fallen state. So, when one reads about "change" in the scriptures, it is usually in the setting of changing from the fallen state to a change of heart that allows the atonement to change us back to our true, pure and innocent nature. We start innocent, we end up innocent, looking at the bigger picture from start to end. Once the details of our true nature have been revealed by this process, I don't see it changing. A change is only possible from this life because we are not really like our spiritual self right now. So, the test of change is made possible after falling. After the Fall is accounted for, there is no further changing unless one believes it is possible to fall again and therefore require a Savior again.

The suffering you are referring to is still part of the second estate process. Once a person is received into a Kingdom there is no more suffering. The Kingdom designation is based in character traits not lack of learning a lesson.

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