Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Why Don't Modern Prophets Resolve All Disputes?


  • Please log in to reply
32 replies to this topic

#1 jinc1019

jinc1019

    Senior Member

  • Inactive 3+ Months
  • 160 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 09:10 AM

I am learning quite a bit about Mormonism thanks to many here on this forum and the resources I have been direct to. I greatly appreciate it. One of the things that has surprised me most about my studies is that Mormons have such a varying degree of views on lots of important subjects. For instance, Mormons seem to disagree about whether God was once a man, whether Eden was literally in Missouri or not, whether there is a Heavenly Mother, etc. With all of these disagreements, why doesn't the modern day Prophet simply just make a decision on these issues?

#2 jinc1019

jinc1019

    Senior Member

  • Inactive 3+ Months
  • 160 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 09:11 AM

By the way, I know Prophets don't just "make decisions," I meant that...Why don't modern day Prophets just ask God for assistance and get a conclusion?

#3 Eowyn

Eowyn

    Senior Moderator

  • Senior Moderators
  • 6494 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 09:12 AM

They are attending to things essential to our salvation. If they set out to resolve every dispute out there, they'd never get anything else done.

"Therefore, let us beware of false prophets and false teachers, both men and women, who are self-appointed declarers of the doctrines of the Church and who seek to spread their false gospel and attract followers by sponsoring symposia, books, and journals whose contents challenge fundamental doctrines of the Church. Beware of those who speak and publish in opposition to God’s true prophets and who actively proselyte others with reckless disregard for the eternal well-being of those whom they seduce. Like Nehor and Korihor in the Book of Mormon, they rely on sophistry to deceive and entice others to their views. They “set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion” (2 Ne. 26:29). (Beware of False Prophets and Teachers, supra.)

Elder M Russell Ballard


#4 HiJolly

HiJolly

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2480 posts
  • LocationSalt Lake Valley

Posted 08 November 2013 - 09:13 AM

Mormonism is a lot like ancient Judaism/ Hebrew religion. What we think is not so important. What we DO is everything. Of course having the mysteries of Heaven revealed is awesome, but if we truly love God, we will do His will. If we have not Charity, all the rest is meaningless.
"All it takes is for us to get a little bit self-important and narrow-minded. Toss in a little fussiness, a bit of dogma, and a bunch of pride and you've got yourself a bunch of people who wouldn't recognize the truth if it sat on them."
-- Robert Kirby

#5 jinc1019

jinc1019

    Senior Member

  • Inactive 3+ Months
  • 160 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 09:15 AM

Mormonism is a lot like ancient Judaism/ Hebrew religion. What we think is not so important. What we DO is everything.

Of course having the mysteries of Heaven revealed is awesome, but if we truly love God, we will do His will. If we have not Charity, all the rest is meaningless.


That's a fascinating point. That conflicts quite a bit with modern Protestantism, as you know (and I am sure you don't care). But how then do you reconcile faith and works issues? Do you tend to agree with the Catholic view of faith and works?

#6 HiJolly

HiJolly

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2480 posts
  • LocationSalt Lake Valley

Posted 08 November 2013 - 09:24 AM

That's a fascinating point. That conflicts quite a bit with modern Protestantism, as you know (and I am sure you don't care).

Oh, I do care, but... ^_^

But how then do you reconcile faith and works issues? Do you tend to agree with the Catholic view of faith and works?

Back when the KJV of the Bible was produced, Faith didn't mean what it means today. Back then, it meant TRUST. Not some over-emotionalized, over-wrought belief.

My salvation depends upon my TRUST in the atonement of Jesus Christ, and my TRUST in Him to save me. My willingness to lay aside all my sins and follow Him. But if I don't follow, then I don't really TRUST, either. I like what James has to say on this in the New Testament.
"All it takes is for us to get a little bit self-important and narrow-minded. Toss in a little fussiness, a bit of dogma, and a bunch of pride and you've got yourself a bunch of people who wouldn't recognize the truth if it sat on them."
-- Robert Kirby

#7 HiJolly

HiJolly

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2480 posts
  • LocationSalt Lake Valley

Posted 08 November 2013 - 09:27 AM

What is the Catholic view of faith & works?
"All it takes is for us to get a little bit self-important and narrow-minded. Toss in a little fussiness, a bit of dogma, and a bunch of pride and you've got yourself a bunch of people who wouldn't recognize the truth if it sat on them."
-- Robert Kirby

#8 Just_A_Guy

Just_A_Guy

    Semi-Senior Moderator, and Repentant Sea-Lawyer

  • Senior Moderators
  • 8605 posts
  • LocationUtah County, Utah, USA

Posted 08 November 2013 - 09:45 AM

I am learning quite a bit about Mormonism thanks to many here on this forum and the resources I have been direct to. I greatly appreciate it.

One of the things that has surprised me most about my studies is that Mormons have such a varying degree of views on lots of important subjects. For instance, Mormons seem to disagree about whether God was once a man, whether Eden was literally in Missouri or not, whether there is a Heavenly Mother, etc.

With all of these disagreements, why doesn't the modern day Prophet simply just make a decision on these issues?


The prophets have spoken to most of those issues. What they have not done, is to canonize those statements. They have not made anyone's membership in the Mormon Church, requisite on their willingness to toe the party line on those particular issues. Those particular issues just aren't that important.

About half the practice of a decent lawyer consists in telling would-be clients that they are darned fools and should stop.
 

--Senator Elihu Root


#9 jinc1019

jinc1019

    Senior Member

  • Inactive 3+ Months
  • 160 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 10:29 AM

What is the Catholic view of faith & works?


Essentially what you just said.

In fact, that's one reason why Catholics believe babies should be baptized, because babies can TRUST in God and thus have faith in Him. Of course, the reason behind infant baptism is really more about original sin, but it's very interesting that faith and works seems to be a common factor here.

#10 jinc1019

jinc1019

    Senior Member

  • Inactive 3+ Months
  • 160 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 10:31 AM

The prophets have spoken to most of those issues. What they have not done, is to canonize those statements. They have not made anyone's membership in the Mormon Church, requisite on their willingness to toe the party line on those particular issues. Those particular issues just aren't that important.


What confuses me then is...If the prophets have spoken on those issues, why are those issues NOT canonized?

#11 Just_A_Guy

Just_A_Guy

    Semi-Senior Moderator, and Repentant Sea-Lawyer

  • Senior Moderators
  • 8605 posts
  • LocationUtah County, Utah, USA

Posted 08 November 2013 - 11:28 AM

What confuses me then is...If the prophets have spoken on those issues, why are those issues NOT canonized?


Two reasons I can think of:

First, because when something's canonized, as members of the Church we're bound to accept it as determining who's in line with the Church and who isn't. If we openly subscribe to a belief that is clearly contra-canonical, then we are essentially in apostasy and at least theoretically, subject to excommunication. Let's go back to the Garden of Eden issue we've been discussing in the other thread. My opinions don't perfectly line up with HiJolly's on that issue. Is it really worth excommunicating one of us for apostasy because of that particular disagreement?

And second, the Church isn't supposed to be the final arbiter of secular (including historical) knowledge. It's supposed to administer the truths that we need in order to live our lives in such a way that we will be able to return to our Heavenly Father's presence at the end of our lives. Individual leaders may feel that their callings or experiences have given them special insight into certain historical or sociological or scientific issues, and we can be edified by those insights--but we can be saved without them and so there's no point in canonizing them.

Edited by Just_A_Guy, 08 November 2013 - 11:37 AM.

About half the practice of a decent lawyer consists in telling would-be clients that they are darned fools and should stop.
 

--Senator Elihu Root


#12 estradling75

estradling75

    The Grumpy Moderator

  • Administrators
  • 4345 posts
  • LocationOut of my Mind

Posted 08 November 2013 - 11:34 AM


Let's go back to the Garden of Eden issue we've been discussing in the other thread. My opinions don't perfectly line up with HiJolly's on that issue. Is it really worth excommunicating one of us for apostasy because of that particular disagreement?


Or both of you because you don't agree with me? :D

I had a life once... now I have a computer and a modem.

Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply. Stephen R Covey


#13 Dravin

Dravin

    Gneiss Guy

  • Members
  • 13090 posts
  • LocationIndiana

Posted 08 November 2013 - 11:37 AM

Or both of you because you don't agree with me? :D


Can we co-opt the saying about Jews? Two Mormons, three opinions.

Edited by Dravin, 08 November 2013 - 11:56 AM.

Hindsight is all well and good... until you trip.

#14 Just_A_Guy

Just_A_Guy

    Semi-Senior Moderator, and Repentant Sea-Lawyer

  • Senior Moderators
  • 8605 posts
  • LocationUtah County, Utah, USA

Posted 08 November 2013 - 11:42 AM

Can we co-opt the saying about Jews? Two Mormons, 3 opinions.


Yes. No. Maybe. What's Estradling's opinion?

:satan:

About half the practice of a decent lawyer consists in telling would-be clients that they are darned fools and should stop.
 

--Senator Elihu Root


#15 estradling75

estradling75

    The Grumpy Moderator

  • Administrators
  • 4345 posts
  • LocationOut of my Mind

Posted 08 November 2013 - 11:45 AM

Yes. No. Maybe. What's Estradling's opinion?

:satan:



What... ever... :cool:

I had a life once... now I have a computer and a modem.

Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply. Stephen R Covey


#16 mnn727

mnn727

    Senior Member

  • Inactive 1+ months.
  • 2234 posts
  • LocationNorth of Dallas

Posted 08 November 2013 - 11:50 AM

I am learning quite a bit about Mormonism thanks to many here on this forum and the resources I have been direct to. I greatly appreciate it.

One of the things that has surprised me most about my studies is that Mormons have such a varying degree of views on lots of important subjects. For instance, Mormons seem to disagree about whether God was once a man, whether Eden was literally in Missouri or not, whether there is a Heavenly Mother, etc.

With all of these disagreements, why doesn't the modern day Prophet simply just make a decision on these issues?


What do any of those things have to do with our salvation or exaltation?

A Prophets 'job' is to teach us what God wants us to know, not the other way around.
http://pawfiction.proboards.com
Worship without sacrifice is just words

#17 jinc1019

jinc1019

    Senior Member

  • Inactive 3+ Months
  • 160 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 11:53 AM

Two reasons I can think of:

First, because when something's canonized, as members of the Church we're bound to accept it as determining who's in line with the Church and who isn't. If we openly subscribe to a belief that is clearly contra-canonical, then we are essentially in apostasy and at least theoretically, subject to excommunication. Let's go back to the Garden of Eden issue we've been discussing in the other thread. My opinions don't perfectly line up with HiJolly's on that issue. Is it really worth excommunicating one of us for apostasy because of that particular disagreement?

And second, the Church isn't supposed to be the final arbiter of secular (including historical) knowledge. It's supposed to administer the truths that we need in order to live our lives in such a way that we will be able to return to our Heavenly Father's presence at the end of our lives. Individual leaders may feel that their callings or experiences have given them special insight into certain historical or sociological or scientific issues, and we can be edified by those insights--but we can be saved without them and so there's no point in canonizing them.


Very good points...I greatly appreciate your view on this. I think it is very helpful.

#18 Dravin

Dravin

    Gneiss Guy

  • Members
  • 13090 posts
  • LocationIndiana

Posted 08 November 2013 - 11:54 AM

To be more serious, I think (thus personal opinion) that D&C 58:26 is applicable to some degree:

26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.


Link: Doctrine and Covenants 58:26-28 

If the Prophet came out and defined and clarified everything to the nth degree members wouldn't be spending time and study pondering over things. While the prophet is extremely important as a source of knowledge concerning God's will and the mysteries of the Kingdom, it is incredibly important that we learn how to go to the Lord himself for knowledge and understanding.

Now if the prophet clarifies and explains nothing then you effectively have nobody at the helm. If he clarifies and explains everything, then you have a people who have an atrophied ability to seek counsel and knowledge from the Lord. A compromise, a Prophet that clarifies and explains crucial doctrines and aspects of God's will while the people exercise their ability to seek counsel and knowledge from the Lord on those things that are not core and crucial is what I see in the Church.

Edited by Dravin, 08 November 2013 - 11:57 AM.

Hindsight is all well and good... until you trip.

#19 jinc1019

jinc1019

    Senior Member

  • Inactive 3+ Months
  • 160 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 11:55 AM

What do any of those things have to do with our salvation or exaltation?

A Prophets 'job' is to teach us what God wants us to know, not the other way around.


Fair point! But I think you are forgetting that it was a prophet (at least based on your beliefs) that told you those things in the first place! If God didn't want you to know, why did a prophet tell it to you?

#20 Finrock

Finrock

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1039 posts

Posted 08 November 2013 - 02:31 PM

Fair point! But I think you are forgetting that it was a prophet (at least based on your beliefs) that told you those things in the first place! If God didn't want you to know, why did a prophet tell it to you?


Truth is God wants us to know all truth. In every case when a truth isn't received it is because an individual would not receive it. Our Standard works are THE standard. Already I fail at living the laws and principles given in our Standard works with exactness. We have enough canon to save us while at the same time we have enough canon not to d a m n us.

As we begin to LIVE the gospel of Jesus Christ we will be added upon. Our knowledge and at the same time our personally accountability to our knowledge increases. God has given us what we need to get on the path of salvation. As we accept and live His law we will grow from grace to grace. Each of us accountable to what we know and possess in our hearts.

-Finrock




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

IPB Skin By Virteq