Why Don't Modern Prophets Resolve All Disputes?

[jinc1019]

I am learning quite a bit about Mormonism thanks to many here on this forum and the resources I have been direct to. I greatly appreciate it.

One of the things that has surprised me most about my studies is that Mormons have such a varying degree of views on lots of important subjects. For instance, Mormons seem to disagree about whether God was once a man, whether Eden was literally in Missouri or not, whether there is a Heavenly Mother, etc.

With all of these disagreements, why doesn't the modern day Prophet simply just make a decision on these issues?

[jinc1019]

By the way, I know Prophets don't just "make decisions," I meant that...Why don't modern day Prophets just ask God for assistance and get a conclusion?

[Guest]

They are attending to things essential to our salvation. If they set out to resolve every dispute out there, they'd never get anything else done.

[HiJolly]

Mormonism is a lot like ancient Judaism/ Hebrew religion. What we think is not so important. What we DO is everything.

Of course having the mysteries of Heaven revealed is awesome, but if we truly love God, we will do His will. If we have not Charity, all the rest is meaningless.

[jinc1019]

Mormonism is a lot like ancient Judaism/ Hebrew religion. What we think is not so important. What we DO is everything.

Of course having the mysteries of Heaven revealed is awesome, but if we truly love God, we will do His will. If we have not Charity, all the rest is meaningless.

That's a fascinating point. That conflicts quite a bit with modern Protestantism, as you know (and I am sure you don't care). But how then do you reconcile faith and works issues? Do you tend to agree with the Catholic view of faith and works?

[HiJolly]

That's a fascinating point. That conflicts quite a bit with modern Protestantism, as you know (and I am sure you don't care).

Oh, I do care, but...

But how then do you reconcile faith and works issues? Do you tend to agree with the Catholic view of faith and works?

Back when the KJV of the Bible was produced, Faith didn't mean what it means today. Back then, it meant TRUST. Not some over-emotionalized, over-wrought belief.

My salvation depends upon my TRUST in the atonement of Jesus Christ, and my TRUST in Him to save me. My willingness to lay aside all my sins and follow Him. But if I don't follow, then I don't really TRUST, either. I like what James has to say on this in the New Testament.

[HiJolly]

What is the Catholic view of faith & works?

[Just_A_Guy]

I am learning quite a bit about Mormonism thanks to many here on this forum and the resources I have been direct to. I greatly appreciate it.

One of the things that has surprised me most about my studies is that Mormons have such a varying degree of views on lots of important subjects. For instance, Mormons seem to disagree about whether God was once a man, whether Eden was literally in Missouri or not, whether there is a Heavenly Mother, etc.

With all of these disagreements, why doesn't the modern day Prophet simply just make a decision on these issues?

The prophets have spoken to most of those issues. What they have not done, is to canonize those statements. They have not made anyone's membership in the Mormon Church, requisite on their willingness to toe the party line on those particular issues. Those particular issues just aren't that important.

[jinc1019]

What is the Catholic view of faith & works?

Essentially what you just said.

In fact, that's one reason why Catholics believe babies should be baptized, because babies can TRUST in God and thus have faith in Him. Of course, the reason behind infant baptism is really more about original sin, but it's very interesting that faith and works seems to be a common factor here.

[jinc1019]

The prophets have spoken to most of those issues. What they have not done, is to canonize those statements. They have not made anyone's membership in the Mormon Church, requisite on their willingness to toe the party line on those particular issues. Those particular issues just aren't that important.

What confuses me then is...If the prophets have spoken on those issues, why are those issues NOT canonized?

[Just_A_Guy]

What confuses me then is...If the prophets have spoken on those issues, why are those issues NOT canonized?

Two reasons I can think of:

First, because when something's canonized, as members of the Church we're bound to accept it as determining who's in line with the Church and who isn't. If we openly subscribe to a belief that is clearly contra-canonical, then we are essentially in apostasy and at least theoretically, subject to excommunication. Let's go back to the Garden of Eden issue we've been discussing in the other thread. My opinions don't perfectly line up with HiJolly's on that issue. Is it really worth excommunicating one of us for apostasy because of that particular disagreement?

And second, the Church isn't supposed to be the final arbiter of secular (including historical) knowledge. It's supposed to administer the truths that we need in order to live our lives in such a way that we will be able to return to our Heavenly Father's presence at the end of our lives. Individual leaders may feel that their callings or experiences have given them special insight into certain historical or sociological or scientific issues, and we can be edified by those insights--but we can be saved without them and so there's no point in canonizing them.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[estradling75]

Let's go back to the Garden of Eden issue we've been discussing in the other thread. My opinions don't perfectly line up with HiJolly's on that issue. Is it really worth excommunicating one of us for apostasy because of that particular disagreement?

Or both of you because you don't agree with me?

[Dravin]

Or both of you because you don't agree with me?

Can we co-opt the saying about Jews? Two Mormons, three opinions.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Dravin

[Just_A_Guy]

Can we co-opt the saying about Jews? Two Mormons, 3 opinions.

Yes. No. Maybe. What's Estradling's opinion?

[estradling75]

Yes. No. Maybe. What's Estradling's opinion?

What... ever...

[mnn727]

I am learning quite a bit about Mormonism thanks to many here on this forum and the resources I have been direct to. I greatly appreciate it.

One of the things that has surprised me most about my studies is that Mormons have such a varying degree of views on lots of important subjects. For instance, Mormons seem to disagree about whether God was once a man, whether Eden was literally in Missouri or not, whether there is a Heavenly Mother, etc.

With all of these disagreements, why doesn't the modern day Prophet simply just make a decision on these issues?

What do any of those things have to do with our salvation or exaltation?

A Prophets 'job' is to teach us what God wants us to know, not the other way around.

[jinc1019]

Two reasons I can think of:

First, because when something's canonized, as members of the Church we're bound to accept it as determining who's in line with the Church and who isn't. If we openly subscribe to a belief that is clearly contra-canonical, then we are essentially in apostasy and at least theoretically, subject to excommunication. Let's go back to the Garden of Eden issue we've been discussing in the other thread. My opinions don't perfectly line up with HiJolly's on that issue. Is it really worth excommunicating one of us for apostasy because of that particular disagreement?

And second, the Church isn't supposed to be the final arbiter of secular (including historical) knowledge. It's supposed to administer the truths that we need in order to live our lives in such a way that we will be able to return to our Heavenly Father's presence at the end of our lives. Individual leaders may feel that their callings or experiences have given them special insight into certain historical or sociological or scientific issues, and we can be edified by those insights--but we can be saved without them and so there's no point in canonizing them.

Very good points...I greatly appreciate your view on this. I think it is very helpful.

[Dravin]

To be more serious, I think (thus personal opinion) that D&C 58:26 is applicable to some degree:

26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

Link: Doctrine and Covenants 58:26-28 

If the Prophet came out and defined and clarified everything to the nth degree members wouldn't be spending time and study pondering over things. While the prophet is extremely important as a source of knowledge concerning God's will and the mysteries of the Kingdom, it is incredibly important that we learn how to go to the Lord himself for knowledge and understanding.

Now if the prophet clarifies and explains nothing then you effectively have nobody at the helm. If he clarifies and explains everything, then you have a people who have an atrophied ability to seek counsel and knowledge from the Lord. A compromise, a Prophet that clarifies and explains crucial doctrines and aspects of God's will while the people exercise their ability to seek counsel and knowledge from the Lord on those things that are not core and crucial is what I see in the Church.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Dravin

[jinc1019]

What do any of those things have to do with our salvation or exaltation?

A Prophets 'job' is to teach us what God wants us to know, not the other way around.

Fair point! But I think you are forgetting that it was a prophet (at least based on your beliefs) that told you those things in the first place! If God didn't want you to know, why did a prophet tell it to you?

[Finrock]

Fair point! But I think you are forgetting that it was a prophet (at least based on your beliefs) that told you those things in the first place! If God didn't want you to know, why did a prophet tell it to you?

Truth is God wants us to know all truth. In every case when a truth isn't received it is because an individual would not receive it. Our Standard works are THE standard. Already I fail at living the laws and principles given in our Standard works with exactness. We have enough canon to save us while at the same time we have enough canon not to d a m n us.

As we begin to LIVE the gospel of Jesus Christ we will be added upon. Our knowledge and at the same time our personally accountability to our knowledge increases. God has given us what we need to get on the path of salvation. As we accept and live His law we will grow from grace to grace. Each of us accountable to what we know and possess in our hearts.

-Finrock

[mnn727]

From Approaching Mormon Doctrine

Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.

Some doctrines are more important than others and might be considered core doctrines. For example, the precise location of the Garden of Eden is far less important than doctrine about Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice. The mistake that public commentators often make is taking an obscure teaching that is peripheral to the Church’s purpose and placing it at the very center. This is especially common among reporters or researchers who rely on how other Christians interpret Latter-day Saint doctrine.

[bytebear]

I think it's also important to understand the difference between greater and lesser prophets. This doesn't mean they are less prophetic or hold lesser keys, but there are dispensations where God pours out his truth all at once and then the people live according to these beliefs until they fall into apostasy (or until the coming of the Lord).

So, think about this. You have Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Enoch, Isaiah, Peter, Paul, John. All these prophets had a lot to say, and we know the beliefs of God through them. But who were the prophets between these powerhouses of the Bible? We have some of their writings. We know of others because they are mentioned, but we don't have their writings, and even others we don't even know about. Until Joseph Smith, we never knew about Lehi, Moroni, etc.

And Joseph Smith falls into the category of a greater prophet. He restored a lot of truth, and all the keys of the priesthood. Most of our modern scriptures come through him. Brigham Young did a lot, but didn't really declare prophetic edicts. And today, we rely on the guidance of the prophet, but we don't expect him to come up with new scripture. We have all the keys of the priesthood through Joseph Smith. No need to restore what we already have.

And remember, truth is a byproduct of priesthood and apostolic succession. We don't claim all truth, and expect more truth to come when necessary. We rely on correct principles, like faith, repentance, kindness and tolerance.

Have you read the 13 Articles of Faith? I think only #10 is doctrinally specific and actually ties to your Garden of Eden inquiry.

Articles of Faith | Mormon.org

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul-We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

[jinc1019]

I think it's also important to understand the difference between greater and lesser prophets. This doesn't mean they are less prophetic or hold lesser keys, but there are dispensations where God pours out his truth all at once and then the people live according to these beliefs until they fall into apostasy (or until the coming of the Lord).

So, think about this. You have Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Enoch, Isaiah, Peter, Paul, John. All these prophets had a lot to say, and we know the beliefs of God through them. But who were the prophets between these powerhouses of the Bible? We have some of their writings. We know of others because they are mentioned, but we don't have their writings, and even others we don't even know about. Until Joseph Smith, we never knew about Lehi, Moroni, etc.

And Joseph Smith falls into the category of a greater prophet. He restored a lot of truth, and all the keys of the priesthood. Most of our modern scriptures come through him. Brigham Young did a lot, but didn't really declare prophetic edicts. And today, we rely on the guidance of the prophet, but we don't expect him to come up with new scripture. We have all the keys of the priesthood through Joseph Smith. No need to restore what we already have.

And remember, truth is a byproduct of priesthood and apostolic succession. We don't claim all truth, and expect more truth to come when necessary. We rely on correct principles, like faith, repentance, kindness and tolerance.

Have you read the 13 Articles of Faith? I think only #10 is doctrinally specific and actually ties to your Garden of Eden inquiry.

Articles of Faith | Mormon.org

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul-We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

I have read through these yes, and if one is willing to accept Joseph Smith as a prophet, then there is nothing in there that I would disagree with. For the most part, it's reasonable.

To address your point about the various kinds of prophets, I think you make good points. The problem though is that every non-Mormon needs to understand WHY we should believe Joseph Smith is a real prophet, and real prophets generally do not give false prophecies...even small ones. That's why I think people focus on these issues Mormons don't think are important. Maybe the Garden of Eden was in Missouri, how the heck do I know! But when all of the evidence says otherwise (what little evidence there is), non-Mormons look at that and wonder how Smith could be a real prophet then.

Just so I am totally clear here though...The belief that the Garden of Eden is in Missouri...is this contained in the D&C or is it just a tradition? I know the vast majority of Mormons seem to accept it, but I would still like to know if it is actually apart of Mormon scripture (written) or not.

[pam]

Just so I am totally clear here though...The belief that the Garden of Eden is in Missouri...is this contained in the D&C or is it just a tradition? I know the vast majority of Mormons seem to accept it, but I would still like to know if it is actually apart of Mormon scripture (written) or not.

I think that question was recently answered in another thread you started. :)

[Guest]

Is a man who is called to be a prophet allowed to have opinions and ideas?