The Fall – Spiritual and Physical

[Traveler]

Because another thread is being hijacked I thought to start this thread. It is my understanding that the fall brought upon Adam and Eve two kinds of death (death being a form of corruption). The first is a physical death (in other words a physical corruption) and the second is a spiritual death (or spiritual corruption). Physical Death is the separation of the physical body from the immortal spirit. The fall put into place physical death. It is my understanding that prior to the fall physical death did not take place among those in the society of G-d. Thus because of the fall the human condition had to be changed to a corrupt state in order for death to be possible.

But the fall was more than just physical. There was a spiritual change to our individual spirits as well. This change is called the second death or the separation of the spirits of man from G-d the Father. This spiritual state is a spiritually corrupt or handicapped state that has two parts. Both parts are described as a spiritual separation from the light and truth of the Father. The first is a loss of citizenship in the society which is in the “presents” of the Father. Because of this separation we are exiled or excommunicated to a corrupt or handicapped spiritual state that requires, among other things, that we have a mediator between us and G-d the Father.

The second part of this corrupted or handicap spiritual state is described as a veil which separates us from all of our spiritual memories of our divine heritage leaving us in a spiritual state so corrupting to our knowing (having forgetfulness) that there is no knowledge of our previous divine condition.

It is my understanding that all that are subjected to the fall experience physical and spiritual corruption and would have remained forever corrupted (both physically and spiritually) if it were not for the atonement of Christ. Because of the atonement of Christ all those that are not accountable for sin are made to be pure physically and spiritually without a need of repentance and all that are accountable are made to be pure physically and spiritually through Christ and the power of repentance.

The gospel of Christ assures us that though children come to this corrupted state that we call the fall of man, that they are all sanctified (made innocent and pure) both physically and spiritually through the atonement of Christ until they become accountable – at which time repentance is necessary before the atonement of Christ will sanctify us (make us innocent and pure) both physically and spiritually.

The Traveler

Edited March 17, 2014 by Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

But the fall was more than just physical. There was a spiritual change to our individual spirits as well. This change is called the second death or the separation of the spirits of man from G-d the Father. This spiritual state is a spiritually corrupt or handicapped state that has two parts. Both parts are described as a spiritual separation from the light and truth of the Father. The first is a loss of citizenship in the society which is in the “presents” of the Father. Because of this separation we are exiled or excommunicated to a corrupt or handicapped spiritual state that requires, among other things, that we have a mediator between us and G-d the Father.

The second part of this corrupted or handicap spiritual state is described as a veil which separates us from all of our spiritual memories of our divine heritage leaving us in a spiritual state so corrupting to our knowing (having forgetfulness) that there is no knowledge of our previous divine condition.

The Traveler

Thanks for starting a new thread!

I hope I don't misdirect this thread.

My question as to your presentation of the issue would be, why are we equating spiritual death with spiritual corruption?

I guess this depends on what is meant by "corruption". To me, corruption is not just something made less than whole, it is a tendency to drive away from wholeness. A naturally corrupt entity would progressively move away from God, it would be an enemy to God. I don't see our spirits as such when we enter into this world. I don't see our spirits as naturally wanting to move away from God. Yes, we are spiritually cut off and bound but the direction our spirits desire to move is not in a corrupted direction. We are put lower on a lower rung but the direction has not changed. We are all born with the light of Christ which makes us naturally want to be like Our Heavenly Father. We are placed in a disadvantaged point temporarily without all of our spiritual faculties available but that does not mean the natural tendency of the spirit is to move away from God.

This has to be couched in the fact that while we are here we are dual beings both with a physical nature and a spiritual nature - there must needs be opposition in all things. The combination of the two makes up the soul of man and therefore while we are here the overall natural tendency of man is to sin, the natural man is an enemy to God. But keep in mind that is only when we are accountable and is speaking of the spirit-body combo, not just the state of the spirit alone. Like adding an odd and an even number the result is still odd but we are not going to call the even number 'odd'. The body's physical tendencies overpower the spiritual ones unless a person pays attention to the spiritual influences by remaining as a child humble and having a broken heart (the physical nature is subdued) and a contrite spirit (the spirit wanting to be like God through the feeling of remorse and penitence).

There are many examples (see the other thread) in which the apostles have stated that children who die before the age of 8 remain spiritually pure and have never experienced sin. We enter this life spiritually pure and clean but separated from God. I think there can be a difference between spiritual death but still alive in Christ, the light of Christ and therefore not corrupted but simply made lower or bound or as it is said in the scriptures "according to the flesh".

I am curious as to what specific doctrine would be at risk in your mind if the spirit was indeed pure upon entering into this world and stays pure through the age of accountability. What specific doctrine does that threaten and especially if it stays pure through Christ' atonement? What doctrine is threatened if little children receive a protected status, spiritually, through Christ' atonement?

We are warned, in fact, by Mormon to be careful not to think little children are corrupt. Moroni 8 : "8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me." and " 14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.

15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism."

It sounds to me that it is way more risky to think that little children start out "corrupted".

Edited March 17, 2014 by Seminarysnoozer

[Traveler]

Thanks for starting a new thread!

I hope I don't misdirect this thread.

My question as to your presentation of the issue would be, why are we equating spiritual death with spiritual corruption?

I guess this depends on what is meant by "corruption". To me, corruption is not just something made less than whole, it is a tendency to drive away from wholeness. A naturally corrupt entity would progressively move away from God, it would be an enemy to God. I don't see our spirits as such when we enter into this world. I don't see our spirits as naturally wanting to move away from God. Yes, we are spiritually cut off and bound but the direction our spirits desire to move is not in a corrupted direction. We are put lower on a lower rung but the direction has not changed. We are all born with the light of Christ which makes us naturally want to be like Our Heavenly Father. We are placed in a disadvantaged point temporarily without all of our spiritual faculties available but that does not mean the natural tendency of the spirit is to move away from God.

This has to be couched in the fact that while we are here we are dual beings both with a physical nature and a spiritual nature - there must needs be opposition in all things. The combination of the two makes up the soul of man and therefore while we are here the overall natural tendency of man is to sin, the natural man is an enemy to God. But keep in mind that is only when we are accountable and is speaking of the spirit-body combo, not just the state of the spirit alone. Like adding an odd and an even number the result is still odd but we are not going to call the even number 'odd'. The body's physical tendencies overpower the spiritual ones unless a person pays attention to the spiritual influences by remaining as a child humble and having a broken heart (the physical nature is subdued) and a contrite spirit (the spirit wanting to be like God through the feeling of remorse and penitence).

There are many examples (see the other thread) in which the apostles have stated that children who die before the age of 8 remain spiritually pure and have never experienced sin. We enter this life spiritually pure and clean but separated from God. I think there can be a difference between spiritual death but still alive in Christ, the light of Christ and therefore not corrupted but simply made lower or bound or as it is said in the scriptures "according to the flesh".

I am curious as to what specific doctrine would be at risk in your mind if the spirit was indeed pure upon entering into this world and stays pure through the age of accountability. What specific doctrine does that threaten and especially if it stays pure through Christ' atonement? What doctrine is threatened if little children receive a protected status, spiritually, through Christ' atonement?

We are warned, in fact, by Mormon to be careful not to think little children are corrupt. Moroni 8 : "8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me." and " 14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.

15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism."

It sounds to me that it is way more risky to think that little children start out "corrupted".

What is risky about thinking children start out needing the atonement of Christ? Thus focusing on the redeeming power of Christ (including his love and mercy - especially of little Children) rather than children under the law of justice not needing a redeemer. All your quotes say to me that children are not at risk - not because they are pure divinity but because of the atonement of Christ they are not at risk. Simple matter of what is the Gospel of Christ. Answer - The fall is overcome by the atonement. I do not think that teaching the possibility that someone may not need the atonement is part of the Gospel of Christ.

Simple rhetorical logic - if there is a claim that something is not corrupt - if anything (repeat for clarity - ANYTHING) can be shown to be corrupt then the claim of no corruption is false.

Question: Is the inability to remember something that was once known proof that such a memory is corrupted or has been corrupted?

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

What is risky about thinking children start out needing the atonement of Christ? Thus focusing on the redeeming power of Christ (including his love and mercy - especially of little Children) rather than children under the law of justice not needing a redeemer. All your quotes say to me that children are not at risk - not because they are pure divinity but because of the atonement of Christ they are not at risk. Simple matter of what is the Gospel of Christ. Answer - The fall is overcome by the atonement. I do not think that teaching the possibility that someone may not need the atonement is part of the Gospel of Christ.

Simple rhetorical logic - if there is a claim that something is not corrupt - if anything (repeat for clarity - ANYTHING) can be shown to be corrupt then the claim of no corruption is false.

Question: Is the inability to remember something that was once known proof that such a memory is corrupted or has been corrupted?

The Traveler

Children who die before the age of 8 are not at risk. This is an LDS doctrine. They are not at risk because of the atonement. They need the atonement, there is no question. And because of the effect of the atonement they, their spirit, never become corrupted.

To answer your rhetorical question, somewhat, the scriptures tell us that there are things that are not corrupted. Do they exist? Yes. 2 Nephi; 9; " 51 Wherefore, do not spend money for that which is of no worth, nor your labor for that which cannot satisfy. Hearken diligently unto me, and remember the words which I have spoken; and come unto the Holy One of Israel, and feast upon that which perisheth not, neither can be corrupted, and let your soul delight in fatness."

How can we feast on something that is not corrupted if there is nothing that exists in our world that isn't corrupted?

The religious definition of corruption pertains to things that are not lost or that are not temporary like earthly traits and treasures. Our body turns to dust but our spirit lives on. This already throws the spirit into the non-corrupted category. Helaman 8; " 25 But behold, ye have rejected the truth, and rebelled against your holy God; and even at this time, instead of laying up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where nothing doth corrupt, and where nothing can come which is unclean, ye are heaping up for yourselves wrath against the day of judgment."

D&C 38; " 11 For all flesh is corrupted before me; and the powers of darkness prevail upon the earth, among the children of men, in the presence of all the hosts of heaven—"

When one takes a test in school, often times it is a "closed-book" test and the chalk board is covered and one cannot discuss the answers with others in the class etc. Why not take the test with open book and discussing it with others? Because then the test is something other than a test of self, it might become a test of how well one gleans answers off of others etc. The test for the fund of knowledge and spiritual prowess was the first estate test. We all passed that test. Now we are participating in the closed book test, the veil covers our ability to obtain the answer without much effort. The test becomes one of integrity, are we going to do the things we are asked to do despite not being able to use all of our spiritual faculties. It forces us to either depend on Faith in Christ or things of the world, including or own physical body drives. It becomes a test of our true nature, what really is in our heart. That is accomplished through the veil. The veil blocks and limits and lessens but it doesn't corrupt. It lets a small part of our spiritual traits come through but that part is still us and will continue through thus not being corrupted. Just because it is a fraction of self does not make it corrupted but makes it "fallen".

I played soccer in college and I remember spending a lot of our time in little small two on two drills. It helped during the game to be a master of the small setting. This life allows us to focus on small stewardship so when we enter the world where everything is opened up we've had a chance to focus on the most fundamental traits, trust in the Lord. The separation related to spiritual death is the method to make the game smaller and focus on the fundamentals but does not make one corrupted or different as it relates to those fundamentals.

[Traveler]

Children who die before the age of 8 are not at risk. This is an LDS doctrine. They are not at risk because of the atonement. They need the atonement, there is no question. And because of the effect of the atonement they, their spirit, never become corrupted.

To answer your rhetorical question, somewhat, the scriptures tell us that there are things that are not corrupted. Do they exist? Yes. 2 Nephi; 9; " 51 Wherefore, do not spend money for that which is of no worth, nor your labor for that which cannot satisfy. Hearken diligently unto me, and remember the words which I have spoken; and come unto the Holy One of Israel, and feast upon that which perisheth not, neither can be corrupted, and let your soul delight in fatness."

How can we feast on something that is not corrupted if there is nothing that exists in our world that isn't corrupted?

The religious definition of corruption pertains to things that are not lost or that are not temporary like earthly traits and treasures. Our body turns to dust but our spirit lives on. This already throws the spirit into the non-corrupted category. Helaman 8; " 25 But behold, ye have rejected the truth, and rebelled against your holy God; and even at this time, instead of laying up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where nothing doth corrupt, and where nothing can come which is unclean, ye are heaping up for yourselves wrath against the day of judgment."

D&C 38; " 11 For all flesh is corrupted before me; and the powers of darkness prevail upon the earth, among the children of men, in the presence of all the hosts of heaven—"

When one takes a test in school, often times it is a "closed-book" test and the chalk board is covered and one cannot discuss the answers with others in the class etc. Why not take the test with open book and discussing it with others? Because then the test is something other than a test of self, it might become a test of how well one gleans answers off of others etc. The test for the fund of knowledge and spiritual prowess was the first estate test. We all passed that test. Now we are participating in the closed book test, the veil covers our ability to obtain the answer without much effort. The test becomes one of integrity, are we going to do the things we are asked to do despite not being able to use all of our spiritual faculties. It forces us to either depend on Faith in Christ or things of the world, including or own physical body drives. It becomes a test of our true nature, what really is in our heart. That is accomplished through the veil. The veil blocks and limits and lessens but it doesn't corrupt. It lets a small part of our spiritual traits come through but that part is still us and will continue through thus not being corrupted. Just because it is a fraction of self does not make it corrupted but makes it "fallen".

I played soccer in college and I remember spending a lot of our time in little small two on two drills. It helped during the game to be a master of the small setting. This life allows us to focus on small stewardship so when we enter the world where everything is opened up we've had a chance to focus on the most fundamental traits, trust in the Lord. The separation related to spiritual death is the method to make the game smaller and focus on the fundamentals but does not make one corrupted or different as it relates to those fundamentals.

Hmmmmm - I did not see an answer to the question I asked. I will ask it again. Question: Is the inability to remember something that was once known, proof that such a memory is corrupt or has been corrupted?

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Hmmmmm - I did not see an answer to the question I asked. I will ask it again. Question: Is the inability to remember something that was once known, proof that such a memory is corrupt or has been corrupted?

The Traveler

The answer was given in the form of attempting to describe what I think "corrupt" means as it pertains to the scriptures and the doctrine we are discussing.

The answer given is that one description of "corrupt" is anything that turns to "dust". If the memories available are ones that are not things that will turn to dust, they are "treasures in heaven" then there is no corruption. If you have a better description of spiritual corruption, lets hear it (outside of just saying separation from God).

Jesus defines corruption this way; Matthew 7; " 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."

If the spirit is corrupted by a lack of memory then it cannot bring forth good fruit according to Christ. The proof is in what it brings forth. It doesn't speak of when or how it became corrupted. We know that the spirits of children bring forth good fruit, not evil fruit even when their memory is not full as to the events of the pre-mortal world.

What to you is the difference between corrupt and "behind the veil"? Or is there a difference? To me, "corrupt" in this sense refers to desires for things that have no eternal value. It doesn't have to do with the quantity or magnitude or scope of the desire but more the quality of it. Pure gold is pure gold whether it is 2 oz. or 10 pounds. If we only have access to the 2 oz instead of the 10 pounds, that is corrupt to you? So in that sense, as it pertains to spiritually purity, a memory forgotten alone is not corrupt unless it is replaced by an earthly one or a turning-to-dust memory or explanation or feeling or desire. Children's spirits are protected from such impurities. They do not leave this world with spiritual impurities.

Even Jesus had to increase in stature amongst men and God while here. In other words, he had to grow up. Was Jesus' spirit corrupt then?

[faith4]

Because another thread is being hijacked I thought to start this thread. It is my understanding that the fall brought upon Adam and Eve two kinds of death (death being a form of corruption). The first is a physical death (in other words a physical corruption) and the second is a spiritual death (or spiritual corruption). Physical Death is the separation of the physical body from the immortal spirit. The fall put into place physical death. It is my understanding that prior to the fall physical death did not take place among those in the society of G-d. Thus because of the fall the human condition had to be changed to a corrupt state in order for death to be possible.

But the fall was more than just physical. There was a spiritual change to our individual spirits as well. This change is called the second death or the separation of the spirits of man from G-d the Father. This spiritual state is a spiritually corrupt or handicapped state that has two parts. Both parts are described as a spiritual separation from the light and truth of the Father. The first is a loss of citizenship in the society which is in the “presents” of the Father. Because of this separation we are exiled or excommunicated to a corrupt or handicapped spiritual state that requires, among other things, that we have a mediator between us and G-d the Father.

The second part of this corrupted or handicap spiritual state is described as a veil which separates us from all of our spiritual memories of our divine heritage leaving us in a spiritual state so corrupting to our knowing (having forgetfulness) that there is no knowledge of our previous divine condition.

It is my understanding that all that are subjected to the fall experience physical and spiritual corruption and would have remained forever corrupted (both physically and spiritually) if it were not for the atonement of Christ. Because of the atonement of Christ all those that are not accountable for sin are made to be pure physically and spiritually without a need of repentance and all that are accountable are made to be pure physically and spiritually through Christ and the power of repentance.

The gospel of Christ assures us that though children come to this corrupted state that we call the fall of man, that they are all sanctified (made innocent and pure) both physically and spiritually through the atonement of Christ until they become accountable – at which time repentance is necessary before the atonement of Christ will sanctify us (make us innocent and pure) both physically and spiritually.

The Traveler

We call this Original Sin.

"Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all" Rom 5:12

"For just as through the disobedience of one person the many were made sinners, so through the obedience of one the many will be made righteous." Rom 5:19

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam...By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice...But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense; it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed"-a state and not an act." (CCC 404).

"Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it; subject to ignorance, suffering, and the dominion of death; and inclined to sin...Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back toward God" (CCC 405).

St. Paul comments, "We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold into slavery of sin. What I do, I do not understand...So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh." Rom 7:14;15;17.

Jesus has come to set us free from this slavery, to bring us back to God where we belong. Through Baptism we are made new, we (all Christians of course) choose to follow Christ and his example of love, obedience and humility. And now, we look forward w/joy and eager anticipation to His glorioius Second Coming, through which he will definitevly defeat death once and for all. Maranatha!! :)

[Traveler]

The answer was given in the form of attempting to describe what I think "corrupt" means as it pertains to the scriptures and the doctrine we are discussing.

The answer given is that one description of "corrupt" is anything that turns to "dust". If the memories available are ones that are not things that will turn to dust, they are "treasures in heaven" then there is no corruption. If you have a better description of spiritual corruption, lets hear it (outside of just saying separation from God).

I see a little bit of a problem - for example a thought obviously can be corrupt - and never turn to dust. Though things that turn to dust are corrupt a great many corrupt things will not turn to dust - for example Satan and his followers are corrupt but are not nor will they be dust.

Because of physical corruption we experience pain - because of spiritual corruption we experience sorrow. Through Jesus Christ we can rest from pain and sorrow. I believe children before they are accountable can experience spiritual sorrow - like the loss (even temporary) of a loved one.

Jesus defines corruption this way; Matthew 7; " 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."

This looks more like a definition of evil than corruption. Although the two are related and sometimes coupled - they are not as we say in scientific terms "tightly coupled" nor what we say in mathematical terms - equivalent. If there is a surge on my power line and the extra electrical power burns out and corrupt my hard drive or corrupts my computer memory - even though neither me, my power line nor my computer committed any sin or act of evil.

If the spirit is corrupted by a lack of memory then it cannot bring forth good fruit according to Christ. The proof is in what it brings forth. It doesn't speak of when or how it became corrupted. We know that the spirits of children bring forth good fruit, not evil fruit even when their memory is not full as to the events of the pre-mortal world.

What to you is the difference between corrupt and "behind the veil"? Or is there a difference? To me, "corrupt" in this sense refers to desires for things that have no eternal value. It doesn't have to do with the quantity or magnitude or scope of the desire but more the quality of it. Pure gold is pure gold whether it is 2 oz. or 10 pounds. If we only have access to the 2 oz instead of the 10 pounds, that is corrupt to you? So in that sense, as it pertains to spiritually purity, a memory forgotten alone is not corrupt unless it is replaced by an earthly one or a turning-to-dust memory or explanation or feeling or desire. Children's spirits are protected from such impurities. They do not leave this world with spiritual impurities.

Even Jesus had to increase in stature amongst men and God while here. In other words, he had to grow up. Was Jesus' spirit corrupt then?

One possible definition of corrupt to me is that something of value that was once accessible is no longer available. Another definition is something pristine and beautiful in a place that will tarnish it. Faulty software in a computer - I believe defines a corrupted system. I try to keep a broad perspective.

I see the fall as a physically and spiritually corrupt situation. I do not see sin and corruption as always being the exact same thing.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

We call this Original Sin.

Could you be more specific - do you really believe the knowledge of good and evil to be Original sin? Do you believe G-d has knowledge of good and evil?

"Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all" Rom 5:12

"For just as through the disobedience of one person the many were made sinners, so through the obedience of one the many will be made righteous." Rom 5:19

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam...By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice...But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense; it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed"-a state and not an act." (CCC 404).

"Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it; subject to ignorance, suffering, and the dominion of death; and inclined to sin...Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back toward God" (CCC 405).

St. Paul comments, "We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold into slavery of sin. What I do, I do not understand...So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh." Rom 7:14;15;17.

Jesus has come to set us free from this slavery, to bring us back to God where we belong. Through Baptism we are made new, we (all Christians of course) choose to follow Christ and his example of love, obedience and humility. And now, we look forward w/joy and eager anticipation to His glorioius Second Coming, through which he will definitevly defeat death once and for all. Maranatha!! :)

I believe that there are many point of similarity with the LDS and Catholic view. Many times it is in how terms are defined and used that there are differences created. To be sure I will ask you personally a couple of questions to start with.

Do you believe that if we understand the fall of Adam and Eve to be literal - do you personally think it possible that something is missing in the literal details we have in scripture? For example was the fall planned for all along by G-d or did he come up with a plan B because his plan A failed?

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I see a little bit of a problem - for example a thought obviously can be corrupt - and never turn to dust. Though things that turn to dust are corrupt a great many corrupt things will not turn to dust - for example Satan and his followers are corrupt but are not nor will they be dust.

Because of physical corruption we experience pain - because of spiritual corruption we experience sorrow. Through Jesus Christ we can rest from pain and sorrow. I believe children before they are accountable can experience spiritual sorrow - like the loss (even temporary) of a loved one.

This looks more like a definition of evil than corruption. Although the two are related and sometimes coupled - they are not as we say in scientific terms "tightly coupled" nor what we say in mathematical terms - equivalent. If there is a surge on my power line and the extra electrical power burns out and corrupt my hard drive or corrupts my computer memory - even though neither me, my power line nor my computer committed any sin or act of evil.

One possible definition of corrupt to me is that something of value that was once accessible is no longer available. Another definition is something pristine and beautiful in a place that will tarnish it. Faulty software in a computer - I believe defines a corrupted system. I try to keep a broad perspective.

I see the fall as a physically and spiritually corrupt situation. I do not see sin and corruption as always being the exact same thing.

The Traveler

If we rest from pain and sorrow at some point then it has an end, it "turns to dust".

Let me ask you this, are spirits in the Telestial Kingdom evil? Are they corrupt?

If your definition of corrupt is "something of value that was once accessible is no longer available" then how are spirits of children corrupt? All is available to them. They will enter the Celestial Kingdom and have all available. Your definition still does not hold for them. Their progress is not cut off, they have not turned from the way, all is still available.

What is the difference between what you are describing (we enter this world as corrupt, guilty of some sin or fault) and original sin? There is no difference.

Before Jesus gained full stature, was He corrupt? You are saying He was because He wasn't of full stature. Luke 2: " 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Your definition of corrupt would mean that Jesus was born corrupt.

I think that is the problem, you are trying to use a secular meaning of the word corrupt and apply it to the scriptures and doctrine. Corrupt is something less than holding onto the iron rod no matter what part of the path one is on. It does not describe the distance one has to walk on the path. If one is holding onto the iron rod even if they are still in the mist, they are not corrupt.

1 Nephi 8 ; " 23 And it came to pass that there arose a mist of darkness; yea, even an exceedingly great mist of darkness, insomuch that they who had commenced in the path did lose their way, that they wandered off and were lost.

24 And it came to pass that I beheld others pressing forward, and they came forth and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press forward through the mist of darkness, clinging to the rod of iron, even until they did come forth and partake of the fruit of the tree."

They went through the mist and nothing was lost!! Nothing was corrupted despite them going through the mist. Like Jesus said, corruption cannot produce good fruit. Corruption is something less than holding onto the iron rod while going through the mist of darkness. The body provides a way the mist is introduced but the spirit can remain unchanged by the mist of darkness by holding onto the iron rod.

To not comprehend our dual nature was the very reason the Law of Moses came around. They weren't ready for the law of the inward man. Once one puts that behind them then they can focus on working on the inward man. But the first step is to realize we are dual natures one battling with the other. Paul tried to explain this over and over again. Romans 7; " 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

Being captive to the flesh is not the same as having a corrupted spirit unless one is "brought to it" meaning it becomes a part of their inward man. Paul is careful to describe two forces within him, one that would do good and one that would do evil. He doesn't say that both would do evil, which is what you are trying to say. He delights in the law of God after the inward man knowing that that is how we are judged, by our true spiritual desires, even if the body we currently have is corrupt. In other words, the direction we are heading is more important than the distance traveled because it is what is inside that matters the most, not the outer man, not the corrupted flesh.

The law of Moses was made for those that had a hard time understanding the difference between flesh and the inner man and so all was one. This is why they were required to do things like circumcision as they couldn't separate being born into a corrupted body from having a corrupted spirit. It was all one to them. They couldn't comprehend or abide by the inner man law.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Seminarysnoozer

[Seminarysnoozer]

(see previous post)

...also, don't confuse downward with backward. The fall brought us downward yet forward. Orson Whitney; “The fall had a twofold direction—downward, yet forward. It brought man into the world and set his feet upon progression’s highway.”

Bruce R. McConkie; "This first temporal creation of all things, as we shall see, was paradisiacal in nature. In the primeval and Edenic day all forms of life lived in a higher and different state than now prevails. The coming fall would take them downward and forward and onward. Death and procreation had yet to enter the world. That death would be Adam’s gift to man, and, then, the gift of God would be eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Thus, existence came from God; death came by Adam; and immortality and eternal life come through Christ. And thus, in Lehi’s precise and eloquent language, all men are in “a state of probation” because of the Fall. And “if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden.” He was then in a state of physical immortality; meaning he would have lived forever because there was as yet no death. “And they [our first parents] would have had no children”; they would have been denied the experiences of a mortal probation and a mortal death; and it is out of these two things—out of death and the tests of mortality—that eternal life comes. But—thanks be to God—“Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy. And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall.” "

If death is the process to move forward towards eternal life then how can it be a corrupting process? It isn't! It is the way to move forward, downward yet forward.

The downward part is overcome for everyone unless they don't accept it. Mosiah 3; " 18 For behold he judgeth, and his judgment is just; and the infant perisheth not that dieth in his infancy; but men drink damnation to their own souls except they humble themselves and become as little children, and believe that salvation was, and is, and is to come, in and through the atoning blood of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father." (emphasis added)

Men have to first "drink damnation into their souls". They have to make a choice to become like their natural (fallen) state. Then to take that away, the natural man has to yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit - that speaks to our spirit and become like a child. Children are not given the choice to "drink damnation into their souls" in the first place. They have not yet reached the age of accountability.

[faith4]

Could you be more specific - do you really believe the knowledge of good and evil to be Original sin? Do you believe G-d has knowledge of good and evil?

I believe that there are many point of similarity with the LDS and Catholic view. Many times it is in how terms are defined and used that there are differences created. To be sure I will ask you personally a couple of questions to start with.

Do you believe that if we understand the fall of Adam and Eve to be literal - do you personally think it possible that something is missing in the literal details we have in scripture? For example was the fall planned for all along by G-d or did he come up with a plan B because his plan A failed?

The Traveler

Knowledge, in and of itself, is not Original Sin. Original Sin came about through the action of disobedience. God created us and endowed us with supernatural gifts, and a life which reflected a oneness with Him, we were made in perfection, with original holiness and justice as a very part of our nature, who we are as a race. God also gave us free will (agency) so that we could freely choose to love God in return. The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was the one limitation that was placed before our first parents, the one temptation that they could freely choose to overcome because God, our Creator and Father, told them not to eat of it b/c to do so would bring death. So yes, the fruit looked pleasing to the eye and good for food, but they were instructed to not partake of it, and yet they did anyway, and through this first act of disobedience, by rejecting Gods goodness and trust in Him, sin and death entered the world as the consequence.

"God made not death, neither hath he pleasure in the destruction of the living" (Wis 1:13).

"The man who commits sin violates order: sin of its nature is disorder" (1 Jn 3:4)

"Therefore, I myself, with my mind, serve the law of God but, with my flesh, the law of sin." (Rom 7:25)

In our nature, as humans, we are bound up in this first act of disobedience, "a multitude, through one man's disobedience, became guilty" (Rom 5:19). As I stated earlier from the catechism, Original sin is not in us as personal sin, but in us through our very nature as humans propagated through Adam's seed.

And it is precisely through this unity of our human nature that Jesus was able free us from the slavery of sin. St. Paul tells us, "For after one sin there was the judgement that brought condemnation; but the gift, after many transgressions, brought acquittal. For if, by the transgression of one person, death came to reign through that one, how much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of justification come to reign in life through the one person Jesus Christ" (Rom 5:16-17).

"For just as through the disobedience of one person the many were made sinners, so through the obedience of one the many will be made righteous" (Rom 5:19)

The same unity of the human race by which we received the effects of Adam's defeat to sin, enables us to receive the fruits of Christ's victory.

As for your other questions, no, I do not believe anything is missing from scripture. No details are lacking, the author(s) of Genesis, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, gave us precisely all we need to understand why we struggle in this life with our very selves, why we battle to overcome sin in our very nature. The Catholic Church does not require us to believe that Genesis is a literal, historical narrative. Rather, we see it as a story meant to portray a truth about us, our first parents and God.

"Among all Scriptural texts about creation, the first three chapters of Genesis occupy a unique place. From a literary standpoint these texts may have had diverse sources. The inspired authors have placed them at the beginning of Scripture to express in their solemn language the truths of creation - its origin and its end in God, its order and goodness, the vocation of man, and finally the drama of sin and the hope of salvation" (CCC 289).

There are many wonderful books which delve into Genesis and the mysteries and truths found within, that can explain all of this better than I can. I recommend Theology and Sanity by Frank Sheed, and A Father Who Keeps His Promises by Scott Hahn.

I don't believe God "planned" for the Fall, to me this idea of God "planning" for us to Fall reduces our free will to mere lip service. To give Adam and Eve an ultimatum (either you Fall through disobedience to know joy, have children and begin the plan of salvation, or you obey my command and live forever without joy or children) would be to coerce our first parents to sin and allow death to reign in the world. But I do believe that God knew we would Fall. God is all-knowing (Psalm 139 1-16; Heb 4:13) and loving and merciful. He knew we would fall into sin and He knew how He would fix the rupture made by sin for "We know that all things work for good for those who love God" (Rom 8:28).

Neither do I believe that God had a "Plan A" that failed so he had to implement a "Plan B".

I believe that God loves us, and he gave us free will so that we could freely choose to love Him in return. God allows us to be tempted, so that we could grow in strength and love, and freely turn to God for His help and peace. He has told us what the consequences of our actions will be, now it is up to us to choose. I choose Love. :)

[faith4]

Seminarysnoozer, you are oh SO close to saying the same thing Traveler is. You quote St. Paul in Romans yet completely fail to see what he meant. You pick up on the dual nature of man, he is comprised of both a physical, and spiritual nature. These two natures are constantly at war with each other, for the soul longs to turn to God, yet the body, the flesh, is constantly tempted to sin. The nature of our flesh to sin, is Original Sin. Children are born in this fallen nature, a fallen state of righteousness. They don't have any personal sins against them b/c they are too young to understand sin. Yet, those same children will grow to face the same battles in their nature as we all face, b/c they were born in a fallen state of nature. Their what they are is affected by Original Sin, not their who they are. They will not grow up never committing a single sin and, already being made completely righteous and therefore w/o a need for Christ's sanctifying grace. We are ALL in need of Christs atonement. Baptism of infants washes away the stain of Original Sin, and clothes the child in the light of Christ, they are made new in Christ. As a Catholic mother, all 4 of my children were baptized as babies, my husband and I were blessed with these children, they are a gift given to us by God, and as their parents, the stewards of these precious gifts, we made a promise to God to raise them in the love and truth of God, to be faithful and obedient to the Word of God. When they come to the age of reason, they will then receive the sacrament of confirmation as well as their first communion.

The Catholic Church recognizes two other forms of baptism as well, baptism by desire and batism by blood. By desire means, the person ardently wishes to be baptized and made new in Christ but dies before they have that opportunity. Baptism by blood means the person believes in Christ and is martyred defending the Truth.

[faith4]

And no, Jesus was not affected by Original Sin, hence the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. The angel Gabriel greets her as "full of grace" and Pope Pius IX states, "The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin".

[Seminarysnoozer]

Seminarysnoozer, you are oh SO close to saying the same thing Traveler is. You quote St. Paul in Romans yet completely fail to see what he meant. You pick up on the dual nature of man, he is comprised of both a physical, and spiritual nature. These two natures are constantly at war with each other, for the soul longs to turn to God, yet the body, the flesh, is constantly tempted to sin. The nature of our flesh to sin, is Original Sin. Children are born in this fallen nature, a fallen state of righteousness. They don't have any personal sins against them b/c they are too young to understand sin. Yet, those same children will grow to face the same battles in their nature as we all face, b/c they were born in a fallen state of nature. Their what they are is affected by Original Sin, not their who they are. They will not grow up never committing a single sin and, already being made completely righteous and therefore w/o a need for Christ's sanctifying grace. We are ALL in need of Christs atonement. Baptism of infants washes away the stain of Original Sin, and clothes the child in the light of Christ, they are made new in Christ. As a Catholic mother, all 4 of my children were baptized as babies, my husband and I were blessed with these children, they are a gift given to us by God, and as their parents, the stewards of these precious gifts, we made a promise to God to raise them in the love and truth of God, to be faithful and obedient to the Word of God. When they come to the age of reason, they will then receive the sacrament of confirmation as well as their first communion.

The Catholic Church recognizes two other forms of baptism as well, baptism by desire and batism by blood. By desire means, the person ardently wishes to be baptized and made new in Christ but dies before they have that opportunity. Baptism by blood means the person believes in Christ and is martyred defending the Truth.

Thanks for your comments!

LDS do not believe the body is the person. For example, a person that has Down's syndrome is not a spirit with Down's syndrome. Just like Jesus said when asked who sinned the parents or the man who was blind and answered neither. The "thorn in the flesh" is not secondary to sin but to make manifest the works of God. The flesh is just a temporary stewardship, along with all the traits it carries both positive and negative. The body combined with the spirit upon resurrection will become unified and one and then together is the soul never to be separate again.

[faith4]

Thanks for your comments!

LDS do not believe the body is the person. For example, a person that has Down's syndrome is not a spirit with Down's syndrome. Just like Jesus said when asked who sinned the parents or the man who was blind and answered neither. The "thorn in the flesh" is not secondary to sin but to make manifest the works of God. The flesh is just a temporary stewardship, along with all the traits it carries both positive and negative. The body combined with the spirit upon resurrection will become unified and one and then together is the soul never to be separate again.

We believe the body and soul, both natures, make up the person. I am a unique individual, out of the billions of people before me, with me now, and still to be born, none will be exactly like me. Our natures are united so closely together, that even after physical death separates us from our souls, we will be reunited to our bodies in the final resurrection, when Jesus comes as the Just Judge and defeats death and sin definitevly (not sure if I spelled that right). When we sin, our choice in the flesh (which also constitutes the mind) damages our soul as well, by rupturing our relationship with God. The more we sin, the more we push ourselves away from God sprititually, God doesn't move away from us, we move away from Him by our actions.

Everyone, including those with disabilities, are made in the image and likeness of God, and as such, are precious and irreplaceable, completely unique in who they are. In Jesus' day and time, those w/disabilities were considered unclean and were cast out from society. Jesus came to them, and showed them just how loved they were and sought to heal them, both physically and spiritually. He taught His followers that even those who were considered "unclean" were not suffering b/c of their parents, and that they too had a special place prepared for them in God's redemptive plan. They too are persons with a right to life, dignity, and to know love, mercy, compassion, and kindness.

And as unique persons, they too have a right to the sacraments, as far as their intelligence and ability allows, but baptism is never denied to any person even those w/disabilities :)

[Seminarysnoozer]

We believe the body and soul, both natures, make up the person. I am a unique individual, out of the billions of people before me, with me now, and still to be born, none will be exactly like me. Our natures are united so closely together, that even after physical death separates us from our souls, we will be reunited to our bodies in the final resurrection, when Jesus comes as the Just Judge and defeats death and sin definitevly (not sure if I spelled that right). When we sin, our choice in the flesh (which also constitutes the mind) damages our soul as well, by rupturing our relationship with God. The more we sin, the more we push ourselves away from God sprititually, God doesn't move away from us, we move away from Him by our actions.

Everyone, including those with disabilities, are made in the image and likeness of God, and as such, are precious and irreplaceable, completely unique in who they are. In Jesus' day and time, those w/disabilities were considered unclean and were cast out from society. Jesus came to them, and showed them just how loved they were and sought to heal them, both physically and spiritually. He taught His followers that even those who were considered "unclean" were not suffering b/c of their parents, and that they too had a special place prepared for them in God's redemptive plan. They too are persons with a right to life, dignity, and to know love, mercy, compassion, and kindness.

And as unique persons, they too have a right to the sacraments, as far as their intelligence and ability allows, but baptism is never denied to any person even those w/disabilities :)

I agree.

[Seminarysnoozer]

We believe the body and soul, both natures, make up the person. I am a unique individual, out of the billions of people before me, with me now, and still to be born, none will be exactly like me. Our natures are united so closely together, that even after physical death separates us from our souls, we will be reunited to our bodies in the final resurrection, when Jesus comes as the Just Judge and defeats death and sin definitevly (not sure if I spelled that right). When we sin, our choice in the flesh (which also constitutes the mind) damages our soul as well, by rupturing our relationship with God. The more we sin, the more we push ourselves away from God sprititually, God doesn't move away from us, we move away from Him by our actions.

Everyone, including those with disabilities, are made in the image and likeness of God, and as such, are precious and irreplaceable, completely unique in who they are. In Jesus' day and time, those w/disabilities were considered unclean and were cast out from society. Jesus came to them, and showed them just how loved they were and sought to heal them, both physically and spiritually. He taught His followers that even those who were considered "unclean" were not suffering b/c of their parents, and that they too had a special place prepared for them in God's redemptive plan. They too are persons with a right to life, dignity, and to know love, mercy, compassion, and kindness.

And as unique persons, they too have a right to the sacraments, as far as their intelligence and ability allows, but baptism is never denied to any person even those w/disabilities :)

Even though I already posted "I agree", I just wanted to clarify, I agree with the first paragraph.

As far as the second paragraph goes; If Jesus really felt that way, why would He change them? Why would He heal them if as you say they were made in the image of God that way? If the blind man was made in the image of God and that is "irreplaceable" to God, then why would Jesus make the blind man see?

How does a person's "right to life, dignity, and to know love, mercy, compassion and kindness" relate to the first part of your second paragraph in which you claim that they are made with these disabilities because there is value in having uniqueness? The right to all those things would be in becoming more like God, not more distinct from God. Christ' prayer is that we become one as He is one with God. There is a place for those that would like to remain distinct and it is likened to the brightness of the body of the stars, as one star differs from another.

When God created man in His image, He created one man, Adam, and one woman, Eve. He also, with Eden, created the opportunity for man to put in motion a set of consequences related to the Fall. As a result of the Fall, flesh changed away from the original creation. Thus, the need for a Savior to reverse the effects of the Fall. Able and Seth were in the express image of his father Adam but Cain was not. And so we see the result of the Fall, variety, even in the first generation. In fact the flesh became so diverted from the original in the days of Noah that God had to slow down the variety. There are many metaphors in the scriptures related to making sure there is at least some connection to the original, i.e. - grafting in a branch, so as to not stray too far from the original creation. At least this gives us a fighting chance to deal with the corrupted body. As in the days of Noah, the flesh was too corrupted to allow for a good test.

Once the test is passed there is no need to face the challenge any longer. Thus the just judge of Christ, seeing that one has enough faith to satisfy the law can take away the corruption, He can heal or change the body to be more like the original creation. That will fully take place at the resurrection.

The body and all that pertains to it is made from dust and to dust it will return. We shouldn't treasure things that turn to dust but treasure those things that are eternal. The test we face is to figure out was is dust and what is eternal. Its not an easy task.

Elder Bednar, an Apostle of God, explains this very well; "As sons and daughters of God, we have inherited divine capacities from Him. But we presently live in a fallen world. The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death. Consequently, the Fall of Adam and its spiritual and temporal consequences affect us most directly through our physical bodies. And yet we are dual beings, for our spirit that is the eternal part of us is tabernacled in a physical body that is subject to the Fall. As Jesus emphasized to the Apostle Peter, “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).

The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following question: Will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man, or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man and become a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord (see Mosiah 3:19)? That is the test."

[faith4]

Even though I already posted "I agree", I just wanted to clarify, I agree with the first paragraph.

As far as the second paragraph goes; If Jesus really felt that way, why would He change them? Why would He heal them if as you say they were made in the image of God that way? If the blind man was made in the image of God and that is "irreplaceable" to God, then why would Jesus make the blind man see?

How does a person's "right to life, dignity, and to know love, mercy, compassion and kindness" relate to the first part of your second paragraph in which you claim that they are made with these disabilities because there is value in having uniqueness? The right to all those things would be in becoming more like God, not more distinct from God. Christ' prayer is that we become one as He is one with God. There is a place for those that would like to remain distinct and it is likened to the brightness of the body of the stars, as one star differs from another.

"

:) I do not have much time as I'm expecting guests right now, but real fast I'll answer this question. Jesus didn't change them b/c he felt they were unclean, He did so that the Apostles and followers could see for themselves that He indeed was the Messiah. So that that they would know that He did have power given to Him by God. We both know the story of the sick man who was let down through the roof for healing, but Jesus didn't heal him physically first. He forgave the mans sins, which led to disbelief and shock among the people there b/c only God could forgive sins, who did this man think he was anyway?! So that they all knew that He had the power to forgive sins, he then healed the man and had him stand and walk away with his mat.

But, more on this all later, my guests are here!!!! Good questions and God bless!!!

[Seminarysnoozer]

:) I do not have much time as I'm expecting guests right now, but real fast I'll answer this question. Jesus didn't change them b/c he felt they were unclean, He did so that the Apostles and followers could see for themselves that He indeed was the Messiah. So that that they would know that He did have power given to Him by God. We both know the story of the sick man who was let down through the roof for healing, but Jesus didn't heal him physically first. He forgave the mans sins, which led to disbelief and shock among the people there b/c only God could forgive sins, who did this man think he was anyway?! So that they all knew that He had the power to forgive sins, he then healed the man and had him stand and walk away with his mat.

But, more on this all later, my guests are here!!!! Good questions and God bless!!!

Thanks.

Like I said, the healing comes after the show of faith as that is the test we face. Jesus wouldn't just simply disrupt the test but if the person passes the test that He is judging then he can take the test away, just like he does with children who die before the age of accountability.

[faith4]

When God created man in His image, He created one man, Adam, and one woman, Eve. He also, with Eden, created the opportunity for man to put in motion a set of consequences related to the Fall. As a result of the Fall, flesh changed away from the original creation. Thus, the need for a Savior to reverse the effects of the Fall. Able and Seth were in the express image of his father Adam but Cain was not. And so we see the result of the Fall, variety, even in the first generation. In fact the flesh became so diverted from the original in the days of Noah that God had to slow down the variety. There are many metaphors in the scriptures related to making sure there is at least some connection to the original, i.e. - grafting in a branch, so as to not stray too far from the original creation. At least this gives us a fighting chance to deal with the corrupted body. As in the days of Noah, the flesh was too corrupted to allow for a good test. ???

Once the test is passed there is no need to face the challenge any longer(??). Thus the just judge of Christ, seeing that one has enough faith to satisfy the law can take away the corruption, He can heal or change the body to be more like the original creation. That will fully take place at the resurrection.

The body and all that pertains to it is made from dust and to dust it will return. We shouldn't treasure things that turn to dust but treasure those things that are eternal. The test we face is to figure out was is dust and what is eternal. Its not an easy task.

Elder Bednar, an Apostle of God, explains this very well; "As sons and daughters of God, we have inherited divine capacities from Him. But we presently live in a fallen world. The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death (We call this Original Sin). Consequently, the Fall of Adam and its spiritual and temporal consequences affect us most directly through our physical bodies. And yet we are dual beings, for our spirit that is the eternal part of us is tabernacled in a physical body that is subject to the Fall. As Jesus emphasized to the Apostle Peter, “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).

I don't understand what you mean about the flesh changing from the original, I underlined what I didn't udnerstand. Can you please provide me w/the sources for this teaching so I can look it up? Thank you!

And what do you mean that Christ can take away the "challenge" if he sees we have enough faith to pass the "test"? Do you mean while the person is still alive? Do you believe that the persons He healed in the Gospels were completely and totally healed physically and spiritually for the rest of their lives?

Our bodies, although created from dust, are a part of who we are as a created person in unity with our soul, we treasure our bodies because they are God's work! "You formed my inmost being; you knit me in my mother's womb. I praise you, because I am wonderfully made; wonderful are your works!...How precious to me are your designs, O God; how vast the sum of them!" (Ps 139:13-14;17). Our bodies are meant for immortality, but through sin and death were made mortal, Jesus will end death once and for all at His Second Coming and renew all creation. We are meant to be eternal, "The dignity of the human person is rooted in his creation in the image and likeness of God". The test we face is obedience to God through our own free will, obedience to His Word, with love in our heart, soul and mind. Our test is to follow Christ, to remain humble, and to love the good things our Creator has given to us freely out of His great love for us. Our test is to pick up our cross, whatever it may be, and follow Him, even if it leads to death.

We are indeed dual beings, spiritual and physical. When Adam and Eve sinned death entered the world, and this death affects us in our entirety, both body and soul. "Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all" (Rom 5:12). This first sin ruptured the relationship between our first parents and God, both phsyically and spiritually, and affected us all. Jesus, the Word of God, came to us in the flesh so that he could make a perfect offering of Himself to God in restitution for our sins, humanity could no longer make a perfect offering to God b/c we're fallen, Jesus came so that we might have life. In Him, death was conquered, and that is our hope, that we too, by being baptized into Christ, may die to this world and be raised again to new life. It is still our choice. God bless!

[faith4]

Thanks.

Like I said, the healing comes after the show of faith as that is the test we face. Jesus wouldn't just simply disrupt the test but if the person passes the test that He is judging then he can take the test away, just like he does with children who die before the age of accountability.

No, that's not what I said or what I meant. In those days, in that culture, anyone w/a disability or disease was an outcast, considered unclean and worthless to society. Jesus went to them to show them, and all his followers, the mercy and love of God, which is bestowed on all mankind, including the ones w/disabilities. Jesus was teaching his Apostles and followers that God loves all, that we are all part of the human family and should all be treated w/dignity and respect. And He was also displayng the glory and power of God so that they might believe who He was.

Jesus has come the first time as the merciful saviour, to teach us how to love one another and obey our Father in everything. He will come again as the just judge and do away with death once and for all, and everyone will be subjected to a final judgement. But for now, our souls are judged at death.

[Seminarysnoozer]

No, that's not what I said or what I meant. In those days, in that culture, anyone w/a disability or disease was an outcast, considered unclean and worthless to society. Jesus went to them to show them, and all his followers, the mercy and love of God, which is bestowed on all mankind, including the ones w/disabilities. Jesus was teaching his Apostles and followers that God loves all, that we are all part of the human family and should all be treated w/dignity and respect. And He was also displayng the glory and power of God so that they might believe who He was.

Jesus has come the first time as the merciful saviour, to teach us how to love one another and obey our Father in everything. He will come again as the just judge and do away with death once and for all, and everyone will be subjected to a final judgement. But for now, our souls are judged at death.

That is a great start but let me share with you are a more detailed and fuller understanding of the principle;

Ether 12; " 6 And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that afaith is things which are bhoped for and cnot seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no dwitness until after the etrial of your faith."

Ether 12; " 12 For if there be no faith among the children of men God can do no miracle among them; wherefore, he showed not himself until after their faith. 17 And it was by faith that the three disciples obtained a promise that they should not taste of death; and they obtained not the promise until after their faith.

18 And neither at any time hath any wrought miracles until after their faith; wherefore they first believed in the Son of God."

One such example; Matthew; " 27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us.

28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, bBelieve ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.

29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you."

The Apostles also taught this, healing a lame man and explaining that the restoration and restitution from the effects of the Fall to our physical state comes through faith followed by repentance; Acts 3: " 16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the bfaith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.

18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

Also Hebrews 11 - the many miracles done through faith.

[faith4]

That is a great start but let me share with you are a more detailed and fuller understanding of the principle;

Ether 12; " 6 And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that afaith is things which are bhoped for and cnot seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no dwitness until after the etrial of your faith."

Ether 12; " 12 For if there be no faith among the children of men God can do no miracle among them; wherefore, he showed not himself until after their faith. 17 And it was by faith that the three disciples obtained a promise that they should not taste of death; and they obtained not the promise until after their faith.

18 And neither at any time hath any wrought miracles until after their faith; wherefore they first believed in the Son of God."

One such example; Matthew; " 27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us.

28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, bBelieve ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.

29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you."

The Apostles also taught this, healing a lame man and explaining that the restoration and restitution from the effects of the Fall to our physical state comes through faith followed by repentance; Acts 3: " 16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the bfaith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.

18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

Also Hebrews 11 - the many miracles done through faith.

Yes, I agree that faith first saved many, and through such faith, physical healings were manifested :) There are many examples of this wonderful faith in the scriptures! But there are also examples in Scripture in which a miracle occured first, it happened both ways. For example, all the cases of a person possessed by a demon, these people were not in their right mind, being tortured by the demons, they were unable to make a declaration of faith first, on their own. Sometimes a parent brought the person forth and exhibited faith in Jesus (Matt 12:22 and Mark 9:17 for example). But there are also many examples of Jesus approaching a possessed person and freeing them w/o anyone to beseech Him on the their behalf (Mark 5:1-20). There are also numerous examples of other types of miracles that were not physical healings which occured before faith, such as the woman brought before the men to be stoned for adultery, and the man w/the withered hand.

Jesus performed many miracles, many which are documented in the Scriptures, not all were physical healings. But the purpose of all of these miracles was to manifest the glory of God and to fulfill the prophecies that he would come among them to heal (both phsyically and spiritually) (Ps 107:20; Ps 34:19). What the Apostles teach in Acts and the remaining letters are simply that now we know Jesus is the Messiah, and the Good News is Jesus Himself and what He has done for us in light of his crucifixion and resurrection. We have to now profess our faith in the good news and come to Jesus, b/c He is the way, the truth and the life, we must put our faith in Jesus to be made new and have life within us.

But although he healed many physically, their "challenge" was not taken away from them, they still had the rest of their lives to live. They could take what Jesus did for them to their heart and truly believe He was the Messiah, and then choose to live in obedience, humility and love, and follow Jesus' example and teachings. Or they could hear the good news and still turn away from Jesus b/c they cannot overcome their desires, such as what is warned in Matt 24:10 and 2 Tim 4:4. Even St. Paul, who had a tremendous miracle occur to Him, while out to persecute the first Christians (zero faith in Jesus at that time), taught that he dared not even judge himself until his death:

"Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing. No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified." (1 Cor 9:26-27).

"It does not concern me in the least that I be judged by you or any human tribunal; I am no conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord. Therefore, do not make any judgement before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts, and then everyone will receive praise from God." (1 Cor 4:3-5).

Thank you for your continuing time and your questions and comments! Blessings to you friend :)

[faith4]

Once the test is passed there is no need to face the challenge any longer. Thus the just judge of Christ, seeing that one has enough faith to satisfy the law can take away the corruption, He can heal or change the body to be more like the original creation. That will fully take place at the resurrection.

And I'm a little confused by what you mean here, this kinda sounds like the principle of sola fide to me, which I didn't think your church believed in. That's why you have temple recommend interviews every few years, right? To make sure you're still following your covenants and therefore staying worthy enough to enter the temple?