Difficulties with pre-teen and teen

[stargazer7]

I am a middle-aged father with three children: a 13+ daughter, a 12-y.o. son and an 11-y.o. daughter.

A brief description of each: The older daughter is very small for her age -- quite "petite." She loves the Gospel and tries to do what's right, but she can be extremely contrary. My son is about 12-1/2, and has had the Priesthood since just after his 12th birthday. My younger daughter is "milder" than the other two, and goes to great lengths to be obedient to both her parents and to the commandments.

It would take weeks to outline all of the different occasions in which the older two kids' behavior was out of line. But I think this morning's "scene" can provide a general example of what I want to convey and ask about. I will do my best to be brief; I apologize if I don’t succeed very well.

My wife and I were lying in bed, thinking about what the day would hold, as we prepared to get up and get ready. While lying there, I vaguely noticed that there was some kind of contentious interaction going on at the far end of the house. Soon, our older daughter entered our bedroom and began complaining about her brother’s mistreatment of her.

She said he had acted like he was her father and was bossing her around.

As it turned out later, he was asking her to go to her room and get some clothes on, since she had just emerged from the shower and only had a towel around her. We then asked her brother to come and see us to discuss the matter. He indicated that he was uncomfortable with her only having a towel around her and said she should get dressed. To paraphrase, he said that she had instantly become belligerent, shouted at him, and said something to the effect of “I wish I had a knife right now.”

Well, from my viewpoint, regardless of who was at fault for what, that statement by my daughter was extremely out of line. However, I pointed it out to the both of them that in recent times, they were often unkind to each other.

Unfortunately, our efforts to reason with them quickly disintegrated into utter failure. They were both upset with each other’s descriptions of what had transpired, and neither one of them seem to have any desire to listen to our counsel. They were both argumentative and interrupted both of us continually while we attempted to discuss things with them.

I’m not sure if either one acted worse than the other; however, my son’s conduct was especially rude and out of line. When interrupting us did not work for him, he then simply proceeded to speak louder and talk over us. After a few of our words here and there reached his ears, he said over and over things like “Whatever” and “I don’t care!”

At one point, it was very upsetting to me how rude and disrespectful he was to his mother. As with other occasions, I had exhibited patience for quite some time, but his conduct towards his mother finally became the “final straw.” He left the room while his mother was still trying to reason with him, and he began to saunter away down the hall. She calmly but firmly asked him to return, but he utterly ignored the request.

In an even voice, I advised him to either return as his mother asked, or I would come and bring him back myself. Another unsuccessful conversation ensued, during which I sternly pointed out to him how rude and disrespectful he was being, particularly towards his mother. He again muttered things such as “I don’t care” and “so what,” after which he again sauntered away. (I know this behavior can occur in the mid-teens, but it's rather upsetting to see it in a 12-year-old.

With both he and our daughter having left the room, my wife had a few words for me. To paraphrase, she said that my speaking to our son sternly was wrong (for the record, I had not yelled or even shouted), and that doing so was “very juvenile of me.” Not only had I maintained considerable patience beforehand, I also feel that he needed some stern speech, since speaking to them calmly in a regular voice was thoroughly ignored and apparently ridiculed.

I reminded her that the Scriptures tell us that sometimes we need to “reprove betimes with sharpness.” I pointed out that the Lord throughout history has shown long-enduring patience with His children, and that it is often a very long time before He finally makes his displeasure known. It is then that He “reproves His children with sharpness,” which sometimes means severe judgments come upon them (us).

I made this point because, in addition to the fact that I disagree with her evaluation of my parenting (this morning), I also feel how she handles things is way too far in the other direction. There will be little or no respect, or regard for our counsel, if she continually handles things with kid gloves. I feel this is one reason things have come to this point.

I do not like to be in disagreement or “call her” on these things, but in some ways she is sabotaging the very progress and results with them that she’s looking for. It’s difficult to speak up and try to reason with her concerning the specific things, since she ultimately seems to have the attitude of “my way or the highway.”

I know I can make these things a matter of prayer and present them to the Lord, but He wants us to use good sense and use many venues to find answers to our problems, so I thought I would see what other LDS parents might have to say here.

I did say I would try to be brief; I’m sorry that this is longer than I expected, but I thought it expedient to provide some details to clarify the situation.

Thank you in advance for your thoughts and comments …

[Guest]

No need to apologize. There's no need to have to be brief when brevity sacrifices clarity.

I have 2 boys ages 12 and 10. We've gone through your 12 yo's reaction with mine as well, so it may be attributed to "that age". My 12 yo went through an unbelievable growth spurt between 11 and 12 with all the physical changes that go with it. He grew 6 inches in a year! This is a bit too early for him to go through in relation to his peers. The 10 yo seems like a baby compared to him now and their interaction between each other changed.

Just some things that went with this physical change: his self-confidence is under stress - he is doubting himself a lot and have to go through a period of reclaiming his identity as he tries to balance seeking appreciation from his peers and sticking to his moral principles. It oftentimes ends up that he becomes overly critical of things that attack what he thinks is right. It has also made him overly sensitive to physical contact with his peers and any talk/jokes about physical stuff. This physical change also came with the need to be private. He started locking doors (we have a no lock policy at home) to his bathroom and bedroom to prevent anybody from catching him in a state of undress. Our family are "no-problem-with-naked" types within the family. So, my husband and I both don't worry about having to hide ourselves from the kids in various states of undress. So my kid locking his room when he's undressing is not something he learned from us. My husband had several long talks about the changes he is going through and how that is a good thing and not something to be afraid of or embarassed about and how to deal with the changes. My husband has a one-on-one night with each of the kids once every 2 weeks (alternating kids with me weekly - I get my own one-on-one with each kid too). It bolstered his self-confidence and he was able to deal with things better.

He also started criticizing his parents for what he thinks we're not doing right. He's starting to realize that we're not perfect and it is shaking his foundation. For example - there are times when I don't wear my seatbelt. I have this condition that makes me throw up if something presses on that specific spot on the top of my stomach. Because of my stature, the seatbelt hits that exact spot. One time, my son told me to put on my seatbelt. I told him I can't. He started to lecture me on it even going so far as to take off his seatbelt and telling me that if I want to kill myself then I'll just have to go take him with me. I reminded him that just because he disagrees with me doesn't mean that he can be disrespectful. He then countered, "Stupid women don't deserve respect!". I stayed quiet the rest of the trip - didn't say anything, didn't do anything, didn't acknowledge his presence. If I would have said anything, I would have blown up at him and possibly wreck the car. I was THAT mad. We got to the house and he asked me for food (his growth spurt has made him want to eat all the time) and I told him that until he apologized for disrespecting me he is not going to get anything from me. When his dad came home, I told him what happened and he got a heated lecture, lost all his electronics (computer, phone, video games, and music player), and lost his bike and his ripstick. So, although he is still allowed to go out of the house, the only way he can do so is if he walks. He has to ask me to drive him somewhere and I expected him to apologize before I do something for him. This is a big deal for my 12 yo as most of his entertainment comes from those sources. He didn't even last until dinner - he apologized to me. I didn't let it go at that - I made sure he understands what he is apologizing for. He still lost all his electronics, bike, and ripstick though. He earned that back after a week of good behavior.

I can't be of much help about your daughter, tho. I was a special case when I was her age as I have a chemical imbalance that causes me to have extreme anger response to relatively small triggers exacerbated by the hormonal changes. So, I can't really tell you if her response is within the normal range for that age.

Now, about your wife's views on discipline. I can tell you from experience that leniency to consequences for overstepping boundaries is a very bad thing. At this age, your children is trying to figure out where that boundary is and how far they can bend it - it's a normal part of the growing up process. As parents, we are there to establish that boundary very clearly so that there is no confusion as to what is acceptable. Even if you reprimand your kids for misbehavior, if the reprimand has no "bite" or if the reprimand is not consistent, you will have a harder time keeping the children within those boundaries because to the child, the boundary is tantamount to non-existent. There has to be consistent "biting" consequences to overstepping boundaries. If the consequences you are giving does not "bite", you need to figure out a different method before the child concludes that the boundary is non-existent. Now, each child is unique in their reaction to discipline. You tell my 12 yo to go to his room he will gladly go there and be happy about it - that's a zero-bite consequence. You tell my 10 yo to go to his room, he will cry and beg and plead for mercy - that's a biting consequence. You yell at my 12 yo, he'll just yell at you back. You raise your voice a tad bit to my 10 yo and you got his attention. So, what works for my 12 yo? Taking stuff away. That's a biting consequence in his case. So, for you, I suggest you figure out what each of your kids respond to and employ that biting consequence when needed. Since you are prepared for what the consequences are for misbehavior, it becomes easier to hand it out without a lot of fuss on your end. Child misbehaves, tell the child what he did wrong, employ the consequence, and he can throw a fit, make a fuss, whatever - doesn't matter. He can stew over it while paying the consequence. He'll challenge you, he'll smack talk you, he'll try to do what he thinks will hurt you the most. Don't respond. You can talk about it when the waters are calm and the incident is past. He'll soon realize throwing a fit can't get him out of it and could possibly earn him more consequences and he'll stop doing that on his own.

Hope this helps.

Edited March 18, 2014 by anatess

[Windseeker]

I've been where you are and it's frustrating with the kids. Your scenario also reminds me of the family where I grew up. my mother would get upset, ask for help and my father would ride in to help resolve the issue (to save my mother) and then my mother would turn on him for how he went about it.

I have two girls one a Cheerleader and one a "Scene" kid (colorful goth). I have learned that I can't resolve all the problems. Sometimes all you can do is listen, sympathize and then do nothing and let them work it out. Listening does more to shorten the life of these conficts then trying to end them.

I would recommend 3 books two of them are by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazilish. I don't always follow their advice but their advice not only helps with kids, it should also help your communication with your wife and everyone. It really comes down to your ability to listen and for those around you to feel like they are heard.

Siblings Without Rivalry: How to Help Your Children Live Together So You Can Live Too by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish

How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish

This last book is just a great book for everyone to read. Rather then reading the latest studies on raising healthy children this guy sums it up and gives great advice.

He strives to translate the best of what is known from research and practice into practical approaches parents, professionals and communities can use to build resilience in children and teens. Two core principles guide his approach. First, it is the healthy connection - the unwavering strong relationship - between parent and child that is the essential element that prepares a young person to thrive. Second, most behaviors we fear in adolescents are misguided attempts to cope with stress. Therefore, if we are to reduce the risk in our children's lives, we need to equip them, starting in early childhood, to address life's challenges in healthy ways.

This book is not as dry as it sounds.

Building Resilience in Children and Teens: Giving Kids Roots and Wings

by Kenneth R. Ginsburg

[stargazer7]

Anatess and Windseeker,

Thank you so much for your input. While I appreciate the content, it is just as beneficial to just be able to share these things, and not feel alone with it. I love my wife but I feel she is a bit off-base with her attitude/outlook -- both with how she deals with these children, and how she thinks my being a bit "sharp" is juvenile. She actually went on to say that it brings me down to my son's level. I don't believe in yelling or shouting, but like I said -- if things don't improve, if the "last straw" falls, then I feel some "sharpness" is indeed in order.

I appreciate your remarks about my daughter. I imagine some of it is hormonal/age-related, and she is (has been diagnosed) somewhat ADD-affected. But some of what she dishes out is both uncommon and inexcusable (ditto for our son).

Later, i.e. after dinner time, she can at times get pretty cranky. This can be normal to a degree, but what is not normal is how she can sound like she is the adult, condescendingly lecturing my wife, even shouting and yelling at her on occasion. She screamed at her brother the other day for something relatively trivial, and ended up hitting him -- she is older but smaller (short and very petite), yet she had the nerve to do it.

Within just a few minutes, she can go from whining and otherwise acting/sounding like a 5-year-old, perhaps crying a bit . . . then suddenly (almost instantly) she can turn that off and shift into a normal, relatively calm voice. She can also shift from the whiney/"blubbery" state to sounding angry, or even just ominously "flat." She can be sweet and cuddly etc. a lot of the time, but when something "hits the fan" in just the wrong way, she crumbles into one of the aforementioned modes.

As for my son, he can become very cocky, self-assured and derisive. I might reprimand him for his behavior or something, and he will challenge me to explain myself . . . or he might ask an impertinent question about how I'm handling things at that moment, and if I choose silence when he gets "too high and mighty," he will say something like "See? You don't have an answer, do you?" or he tells me my actions, reprimands etc. are unfounded or undeserved.

I'm very concerned about both of their behaviors, as we are strong in our (LDS) faith, we pray as a family and attend Church, we do our best to be good parents, try to treat them as we should, etc. Despite this, these things happen, and worse, they are occurring more frequently and are more severe. I do realize that SOME of it goes with age, hormones etc. but I have a certain 'sense' that some of it is not.

Edited March 18, 2014 by stargazer7

[Guest]

Anatess and Windseeker,

Thank you so much for your input. While I appreciate the content, it is just as beneficial to just be able to share these things, and not feel alone with it. I love my wife but I feel she is a bit off-base with her attitude/outlook -- both with how she deals with these children, and how she thinks my being a bit "sharp" is juvenile. She actually went on to say that it brings me down to my son's level. I don't believe in yelling or shouting, but like I said -- if things don't improve, if the "last straw" falls, then I feel some "sharpness" is indeed in order.

I appreciate your remarks about my daughter. I imagine some of it is hormonal/age-related, and she is (has been diagnosed) somewhat ADD-affected. But some of what she dishes out is both uncommon and inexcusable (ditto for our son).

Later, i.e. after dinner time, she can at times get pretty cranky. This can be normal to a degree, but what is not normal is how she can sound like she is the adult, condescendingly lecturing my wife, even shouting and yelling at her on occasion. She screamed at her brother the other day for something relatively trivial, and ended up hitting him -- she is older but smaller (short and very petite), yet she had the nerve to do it.

Within just a few minutes, she can go from whining and otherwise acting/sounding like a 5-year-old, perhaps crying a bit . . . then suddenly (almost instantly) she can turn that off and shift into a normal, relatively calm voice. She can also shift from the whiney/"blubbery" state to sounding angry, or even just ominously "flat." She can be sweet and cuddly etc. a lot of the time, but when something "hits the fan" in just the wrong way, she crumbles into one of the aforementioned modes.

As for my son, he can become very cocky, self-assured and derisive. I might reprimand him for his behavior or something, and he will challenge me to explain myself . . . or he might ask an impertinent question about how I'm handling things at that moment, and if I choose silence when he gets "too high and mighty," he will say something like "See? You don't have an answer, do you?" or he tells me my actions, reprimands etc. are unfounded or undeserved.

I'm very concerned about both of their behaviors, as we are strong in our (LDS) faith, we pray as a family and attend Church, we do our best to be good parents, try to treat them as we should, etc. Despite this, these things happen, and worse, they are occurring more frequently and are more severe. I do realize that SOME of it goes with age, hormones etc. but I have a certain 'sense' that some of it is not.

Armchair quarterbacking here... It sounds to me that all these problems boil down to one thing - Lack of Respect.

Your daughter may be using these expressions as just a manipulation tool, acting the character that best suits her needs at the time, completely ignoring the need for Respect. Your son just flat out challenges you without even pretending to have a modicum of respect.

If I am correct, you will need to analyze your family's history and determine how it came to be that your children decided they don't have to respect you or each other. Then address the situation making the necessary course corrections.

Because even though your daughter have the desire (normal for females her age) to manipulate you or your son to question your authority (also normal for his age), their manner of expressing these are totally devoid of respect. And that's where the trouble lies. That's something we don't tolerate in my family.

Edited March 18, 2014 by anatess

[notquiteperfect]

Maybe you're already aware and/or doing this but what came to my mind was that food affects mood and hormones so I suggest doing away with processed (man-made) 'food' and focus on real (God-made) food (mostly veges, some fruit, little dairy and meat).

Oh, also, from what you described, you're wife might be too lenient and your kids know it...

[applepansy]

First of all, you and your wife need to get on the same page. Stop criticizing each other's parenting skills. You have your way and its needed at times and she has her's and its necessary too. This is one of the reasons it is so important for children to have two parents. Then, you need to set some rules (fences). Hopefully you'll both eventually get to a point where you will recognize the value of the other's parenting and can express appreciation for those skills. If that is too difficult to think about, then ask Heavenly Father to help you recognize and appreciate each other's parenting skills.

Second, Don't argue. Don't put up with disrespect, either of you. And don't talk to a blank wall of "whatever" and "I don't care." When having a discussion like the one you describe calmly and firmly set the consequence and explain the discussion will continue when the child is willing to listen and talk calmly. And that's the end of it when there is anger controlling the attitude and words. Do Not Argue or discuss until things are calm. At another time (sooner rather than later) discuss and resolve the issue.

Third, Your son had a good point. His sister's attire made him uncomfortable and he asked her to change it. She over reacted. Then I'm sure he over reacted. And it all dissolved in to contention. This would be a good time to remind your daughter about modesty. It applies even at home, and even when going from bathroom to bedroom after a shower. She can dress in the bathroom, just like she would do if you had company staying over or she was at a hotel or other similar situation. This is showing respect for herself as well as her brother. It is also showing Heavenly Father she loves Him enough to be obedient.

I remember similar fights with my brother. I'm the oldest and he's 11 months younger than I am. We fought terribly as teenagers. Mom never did understand, until we explained, that the month when we were sort of the same age was the worse month of the year. :) Then I raised three boys and a girl with the girl being the youngest. Oh boy, Boys fighting as teenagers is so much worse. Rules saved us. Then our daughter his puberty and new rules had to be set.

I learned the following in dealing with my teens. 1) Set rules. Nothing changes a rule unless a calm, carefully reasoned discussion can take place and then even that might not change the rule. But it will be respectful. 2) Do not engage is discussion when everyone is angry. This is the reason for the rules (of engagement ). 3) Disrespect will not be tolerated, period. Not to parents and definitely not to siblings, and most definitely not to other adults in authority.

Number 3 is a biggy. This is the time when you and your wife will teach your children how to fight fair. This means you model the behavior you want your children to emulate. Let them see you disagree. And let them think they are eaves dropping. :)

You will find after you set the rules, in writing if necessary, that the fighting will diminish in time. They will test the fences (rules). Its your and your wife's job to not move the fences. Fences can only be moved after calm and reasonable discussion and then only if both Mom and Dad agree.

Kids are smart. It won't take long for your teens to realize that if they want something that they can't get it by arguing and fighting.

Also, Make Heavenly Father a partner in parenting.

Good Luck!

Edited March 19, 2014 by applepansy