Questions on LDS Church

[NextElement]

Hello! I'm new to these forums but glad I've found them. I'm an 18 year old Catholic who has many Mormon friends, and had some questions on the faith. I guess I'll be direct and just ask:

1. How can you be so sure that Joseph Smith was a prophet, had the vision, and didn't just make up the Book of Mormon?

2. What archaeological proof is there in the Americas that the Nephites and Lamanites existed, and had these great cultures that were destroyed? Also, what would you say to the critics who claim that there is no evidence of Jewish tribes coming to the Americas, and that several things mentioned in the BOM weren't around (steel, swords, horses, cattle, etc)?

3. What Bible verses lead you to believe that God would send another prophet after Jesus? Do these contradict other verses saying he is the last prophet?

4. What is your belief on the Trinity? Do you believe that each aspect of it is a separate being?

5. I've heard rumors that Mormons believe God lives on another planet, and that humans can eventually become a God of their own planet..... Wouldn't that contradict the definition of a God? Or is this is widely held belief?

6. What advice do you have for attending a Mormon service? I'll be going with a friend this Sunday.

Thanks!

[The Folk Prophet]

1. How can you be so sure that Joseph Smith was a prophet, had the vision, and didn't just make up the Book of Mormon?

 

I would pose the same question back to you concerning your beliefs. How can you be so sure that Moses was a prophet, had a vision, and didn't just make up his stories in the bible? It's a matter of faith.

 

As you will learn in exploring The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we strongly believe in personal revelation. They reason I believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that the Book of Mormon was not made up by him is because I took the matter to the Lord and asked.

 

2. What archaeological proof is there in the Americas that the Nephites and Lamanites existed, and had these great cultures that were destroyed? Also, what would you say to the critics who claim that there is no evidence of Jewish tribes coming to the Americas, and that several things mentioned in the BOM weren't around (steel, swords, horses, cattle, etc)?

 

Lack of evidence is not evidence. There are various apologetic explanations for things, as varied as the questions, but it comes down to the same matter as the previous question. There are archaeological evidences of the Book of Mormon and there are archaeological unknowns. Archaeology is not the reason that I believe the Book of Mormon to be true. Because I know the book is true through my faith, I can look for what archaeological evidences there are for support, and I can not stress too much about the things that have not been found yet.

 

3. What Bible verses lead you to believe that God would send another prophet after Jesus? Do these contradict other verses saying he is the last prophet?

 

Amos 3:7. If there are no prophets, God will do anything. So, no prophets = God doing nothing.

 

What verses in the bible say there will be no prophets after Jesus? I presume you refer to the parable in Matt 21?

 

4. What is your belief on the Trinity? Do you believe that each aspect of it is a separate being?

 

Short answer, we do not believe in the tradition of the trinity. We believe that when the bible speaks of God and Jesus being one that it means one in purpose.

 

5. I've heard rumors that Mormons believe God lives on another planet, and that humans can eventually become a God of their own planet..... Wouldn't that contradict the definition of a God? Or is this is widely held belief?

 

There is no teaching anywhere that speaks of God living on another planet.

We do believe in deification, but...well...read this. Becoming Like God.

 

6. What advice do you have for attending a Mormon service? I'll be going with a friend this Sunday.

 

Enjoy it. There's nothing too overwhelming about it. Just listen and learn and try to be sensitive to the Spirit.

[mordorbund]

Hello! I'm new to these forums but glad I've found them. I'm an 18 year old Catholic who has many Mormon friends, and had some questions on the faith. I guess I'll be direct and just ask:

 

 

Hello and welcome :)

 

 

 

1. How can you be so sure that Joseph Smith was a prophet, had the vision, and didn't just make up the Book of Mormon?

 

 

Joseph claims that when he went into the woods he had a conversation with God the Father and Jesus Christ. To verify that claim, I can talk to the parties involved - except Joseph's dead. So that leaves God. God told me it happened, so I'm taking Him at His word.

 

 

2. What archaeological proof is there in the Americas that the Nephites and Lamanites existed, and had these great cultures that were destroyed? Also, what would you say to the critics who claim that there is no evidence of Jewish tribes coming to the Americas, and that several things mentioned in the BOM weren't around (steel, swords, horses, cattle, etc)?

 

 

 Generally, I don't bother with critics. Now if you're reading the Book of Mormon and say, "huh, that's odd" then we can probably have a dialogue. Discussion can happen when we have a common frame of reference so we're not talking past each other. Until we know each other better, we can at least use the internal consistencies of the book itself as a frame of reference.

 

The critics questions have been answered numerous times (it's the same questions they've been asking since the book was published) they just aren't listening. (for a starter course, see here: http://askgramps.org/13781/archaeological-evidence-support-book-mormon).

 

3. What Bible verses lead you to believe that God would send another prophet after Jesus? Do these contradict other verses saying he is the last prophet?

 

 

What specific verse? In a book that moves the narrative along via one prophet after another? A book that states there were prophets who were contemporaries of the apostles? A book that promises there will be two prophets in Jerusalem in the last days? Are we talking about the same book?

 

 

4. What is your belief on the Trinity? Do you believe that each aspect of it is a separate being?

 

We use the term "Godhead" when discussing the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. It closely corresponds to the term Trinity. We don't have creeds built up around it but simply believe that they are 3 separate Persons united in purpose (as best explained in John 17). What's more (and this is jumping ahead in your questions), they are an example to us of what we may literally become. Just as Jesus came to earth, took a body, laid it aside, and rose again to sit on the right hand of the Father (being like the Father) - so we can follow his example, taking a body, laying it aside, and rising to immortality as a joint-heir with Christ.

 

5. I've heard rumors that Mormons believe God lives on another planet, and that humans can eventually become a God of their own planet..... Wouldn't that contradict the definition of a God? Or is this is widely held belief?

 

We believe that God the Father has a physical, glorified body. This is somewhat mind-blowing, and yet Jesus shows us exactly how that can be. Here is a God who has a physical, glorified body for Himself. We believe that we can follow Jesus (indeed, doesn't He command us to do just that?) and continue to assist in His work. Scripturally, we use the term "god" (note the little 'g') to describe someone who attained such an exaltation. Such persons still remain subject to God the Father and glorify Him. What's the definition of God that you're using that's contradictory?

 

 

 

6. What advice do you have for attending a Mormon service? I'll be going with a friend this Sunday.

 

 

If you're going to be a regular, find the missionaries. If you're just going for the experience, enjoy it.

[NextElement]

Thanks for the replies so far, it means a lot. One thing that you both mentioned and that every Mormon seems to mention is praying and asking if the Book of Mormon and what Joseph Smith taught were the truth..... Can I ask you how you both went about doing this? Did you literally just pray and say "Lord, is this true?"? Did you read through the BOM and feel the Holy Spirit?

In regards to the archaeology, it is important to me. I came to accept my beliefs as a Catholic and Christian by using a fair amount of reason along with faith. For example, history and archaeology Jerusalem was a major city. The Pharisees were a major religious group. There was a man name Jesus who was born in Nazareth and crucified by the Romans. There is a good amount of physical evidence...... With the BOM, I feel as if that evidence is lacking.

[estradling75]

Thanks for the replies so far, it means a lot. One thing that you both mentioned and that every Mormon seems to mention is praying and asking if the Book of Mormon and what Joseph Smith taught were the truth..... Can I ask you how you both went about doing this? Did you literally just pray and say "Lord, is this true?"? Did you read through the BOM and feel the Holy Spirit?

 

 

The missionary that deal with those seeking to convert use Moroni 10:3-5  https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/10?lang=eng

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts

 

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

 

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

 

 

In regards to the archaeology, it is important to me. I came to accept my beliefs as a Catholic and Christian by using a fair amount of reason along with faith. For example, history and archaeology Jerusalem was a major city. The Pharisees were a major religious group. There was a man name Jesus who was born in Nazareth and crucified by the Romans. There is a good amount of physical evidence...... With the BOM, I feel as if that evidence is lacking.

 

If that is what you want... I would just ask that you hold the Bible and your Catholic teachings to the same standard as you do the Book of Mormon.  And understand that the Bible has had archaeologist to look through it for as long as there have been archaeologist... and is in what is known as the 'Old world' wereas the Book of Mormon is barely two hundred and archaeology in the 'New' world is still a lot of unknown. It simply hasn't been worked over to the same degree.

 

The most recent archaeology about the Book of Mormon that I am aware of is http://www.amazon.com/Mormons-Codex-Ancient-American-Book-ebook/dp/B00F64T8SA and it makes a very strong case. 

[The Folk Prophet]

Thanks for the replies so far, it means a lot. One thing that you both mentioned and that every Mormon seems to mention is praying and asking if the Book of Mormon and what Joseph Smith taught were the truth..... Can I ask you how you both went about doing this? Did you literally just pray and say "Lord, is this true?"? Did you read through the BOM and feel the Holy Spirit?

 

The experience will not be the same for anyone. Everyone's relationship with the Lord is their own, and the Lord knows what they need. Some get an answer easy. Some struggle with it. But the Lord has promised us that if we will sincerely seek, we shall find. Consider James 1:5, and then consider Moroni 10:3-5 (as estradling75 suggested).

 

In my case, having been born into a Mormon family, I had grown up on the Book of Mormon and stories of Joseph Smith. When I finally got serious about knowing I did pretty much just as you said. I knelt down and said, essentially "Is this true?" I received a witness from the Holy Spirit in response, and since that time have received that powerful witness again and again.

 

I advocate the study of archaeology behind the Book of Mormon. It's fascinating. It will support one's faith. But if one approaches it from a negative point of view, it can also tear down faith, just like the anti-bible claims. As with all matters of faith, the "proofs" out there can tear it down or support it.

 

The Lord does not intend for us to have proof of that nature because it would be destroyed by His standard that we live by faith. So I do not think the Book of Mormon will ever be proven to be true (and the Bible as well). The Lord wants us to seek him in faith.

[Jane_Doe]

Hello NextElement and welcome to the forum!

 

My 2 cent answers to your questions:

1. How can you be so sure that Joseph Smith was a prophet, had the vision, and didn't just make up the Book of Mormon?

 

As the Bible says, judge them by thier fruits (Matthew 7).  I believe the Book of Mormon to be an inspired scripture, so a beleif in Joseph Smith comes along with it.  Now, do I think everything Joseph did was inspired or perfect?  Heck no!!  There's only been on perfect man on this earth, and his name's Jesus.    

 

 

2. What archaeological proof is there in the Americas that the Nephites and Lamanites existed, and had these great cultures that were destroyed? Also, what would you say to the critics who claim that there is no evidence of Jewish tribes coming to the Americas, and that several things mentioned in the BOM weren't around (steel, swords, horses, cattle, etc)?

 

Speaking just as myself, I don't know and really don't care.  I've never found God is a pile of old bricks, or scraps of pottery, either in the Americas or Middle East.  Even if I could know 200% some dude name Jesus lived at this house, it wouldn't prove that he was the Son of God or rose from the dead.  I just don't feel the need for such 'proof'.  Rather, my my relationship with God is derived from reading His words and openning my heart up to him in prayer.

 

3. What Bible verses lead you to believe that God would send another prophet after Jesus? Do these contradict other verses saying he is the last prophet?

 

My favorites are Amos 3:7 ("Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets"), and the books of Isiah and Revelations which make many references to phrophets proclaiming the Word in the last days.  There are others too-- feel free to ask if you want more.

 

Question for you: what verses would you use to say that Jesus was the last of the prophets?  I've heard non-LDS sources say John 19:30 ("It is finished"), but to me that verse has always resenated as "it" = His suffering, since He died right afterwards.  Obviously His work wasn't done, because He came back, taught the people many things, and is coming back again.

 

 

4. What is your belief on the Trinity? Do you believe that each aspect of it is a separate being?

 

Other posters have already nailed this one.

 

5. I've heard rumors that Mormons believe God lives on another planet, and that humans can eventually become a God of their own planet..... Wouldn't that contradict the definition of a God? Or is this is widely held belief?
 

 

Useful officail answer: https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god

 

6. What advice do you have for attending a Mormon service? I'll be going with a friend this Sunday.

 

1)  LDS services don't have a rock band so don't expect one ;P.  This probably isn't a big deal for someone of Catholic background, but I have many non-denomational friends who honestly don't feel like it's church without an electric guitar.  Rather, LDS services are of the philiosphy that God speaks with a quiet reverant voice, so they try to emulate that. 

 

2)  There will be screaming babies.  While LDS try to be revent while worshiping God, worship is a family event so there are babies and kids... and they can only be kept so quiet.

 

3)  On a more serious note, keep an open heart and mind,  I've attended services at many churches (Christain and not), and even though I've never converted to any of them, I've always learned something about them, myself, and God.

 

4)  If you want to know the logistics of a Mormon church service, this is a really good link:

[Jane_Doe]

Thanks for the replies so far, it means a lot. One thing that you both mentioned and that every Mormon seems to mention is praying and asking if the Book of Mormon and what Joseph Smith taught were the truth..... Can I ask you how you both went about doing this? Did you literally just pray and say "Lord, is this true?"? Did you read through the BOM and feel the Holy Spirit?

 

Is it too cheesey to say "Yeah"?  I do it everytime I read the BOM and the Bible: I ask God to speak to me in my heart.  No, I don't expect a booming voice from the Heaven's.  Rather, I feel this gentle assurance, like a hand gently nudging my heart.  How do you feel the Bible is true? 

 

In regards to the archaeology, it is important to me. I came to accept my beliefs as a Catholic and Christian by using a fair amount of reason along with faith. For example, history and archaeology Jerusalem was a major city. The Pharisees were a major religious group. There was a man name Jesus who was born in Nazareth and crucified by the Romans. There is a good amount of physical evidence...... With the BOM, I feel as if that evidence is lacking.

 

*Ok, going to play devil's advocate here* So, there was a man named Jesus was killed by the Romans.  How does that make him the Son of God anymore than the Eygptain pharoh's?  Archeology also says they existed and claimed to by gods. How do you know this Jesus fellow walked on water?  Healed the sick?  Rose from the dead?  Took your sins on himself? 

 

Like I said, I've never found God in archaeology.

 

(Also, archaeology frequently completely disagrees with the OT, but I still read it and find it valuable). 

[Jane_Doe]

I advocate the study of archaeology behind the Book of Mormon. It's fascinating. It will support one's faith. But if one approaches it from a negative point of view, it can also tear down faith, just like the anti-bible claims. As with all matters of faith, the "proofs" out there can tear it down or support it.

 

The Lord does not intend for us to have proof of that nature because it would be destroyed by His standard that we live by faith. So I do not think the Book of Mormon will ever be proven to be true (and the Bible as well). The Lord wants us to seek him in faith.

 

Awesome reply!

[Just_A_Guy]

Thanks for the replies so far, it means a lot. One thing that you both mentioned and that every Mormon seems to mention is praying and asking if the Book of Mormon and what Joseph Smith taught were the truth..... Can I ask you how you both went about doing this? Did you literally just pray and say "Lord, is this true?"? Did you read through the BOM and feel the Holy Spirit?

 

I grew up Mormon; so it was a very evolutionary process for me where the voice of God confirming the truth of these things just grew stronger and stronger.  It wasn't a single "Is this true?" followed by some overwhelming feeling of "YES"; it was a now-uncounted number of positive, confirmatory (I would even go so far as to say "revelatory") experiences generally in line with the phenomena described in Galatians 5:22-23 and 2 Timothy 1:7.

 

 

In regards to the archaeology, it is important to me. I came to accept my beliefs as a Catholic and Christian by using a fair amount of reason along with faith. For example, history and archaeology Jerusalem was a major city. The Pharisees were a major religious group. There was a man name Jesus who was born in Nazareth and crucified by the Romans. There is a good amount of physical evidence...... With the BOM, I feel as if that evidence is lacking.

 

I don't want to dissuade you from that method; but I think it's important to note the limitations of that method.

 

For example, we can independently confirm that Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Palmyra, Kirtland, and Nauvoo, really existed--just as described in the Doctrine and Covenants.  We can confirm that Joseph Smith was imprisoned in Missouri at the time D&C 121 says he was; and the remains of that jailhouse still exist.  We can confirm Brigham Young was in Winter Quarters in 1846, just as D&C 136 says he was.  But I doubt anyone would be so brash as to say that archaeology "confirms" that the Doctrine and Covenants is true in every particular--let alone that it confirms the D&C's purported divinely-inspired origin.

 

And of course, I can confirm the existence of places like London and Brighton and Gretna Greene in eighteenth-century England; but that doesn't make Meryton or Longbourn or Pemberley actual places or confirm that Pride and Prejudice is indeed scripture.

 

For people who claim that their embrace of Christianity is based in science/archaeology, or a mixture of rationalism and faith; I would respectfully submit that most of them are unconsciously giving a lot more weight to "faith" (and even the idea that they themselves can receive/have received supernatural communications from God) than their secularized culture would let them admit even to themselves.  Once they come to grips with that, I think Mormonism's admonition to "go pray about it" seems a little less weird.

[NextElement]

Wow, great replies so far! Just an interesting tidbit: I found a Mormon lady online who was from Mexico. Her father was of Aztec descent, and they converted to LDS because her father said he would always hear stories passed down orally of a "great white God" who visited the people long ago and would one day return..... Jesus perhaps?

[Lakumi]

Wow, great replies so far! Just an interesting tidbit: I found a Mormon lady online who was from Mexico. Her father was of Aztec descent, and they converted to LDS because her father said he would always hear stories passed down orally of a "great white God" who visited the people long ago and would one day return..... Jesus perhaps?

 

Jesus wasn't white... I mean people who lived in Isreal 2000 years ago weren't white.

People in Europe just decided to paint him like that because, well they liked to feel white people were the best, there's Asian Jesus paintings in China and Black Jesus paintings in Ethiopia. He tends to change race to fit where the people are.

But as a Middle Eastern man he would have looked the par.

[Jane_Doe]

Wow, great replies so far! Just an interesting tidbit: I found a Mormon lady online who was from Mexico. Her father was of Aztec descent, and they converted to LDS because her father said he would always hear stories passed down orally of a "great white God" who visited the people long ago and would one day return..... Jesus perhaps?

 I perfer not to speculate.

[Guest]

Thanks for the replies so far, it means a lot. One thing that you both mentioned and that every Mormon seems to mention is praying and asking if the Book of Mormon and what Joseph Smith taught were the truth..... Can I ask you how you both went about doing this? Did you literally just pray and say "Lord, is this true?"? Did you read through the BOM and feel the Holy Spirit?

In regards to the archaeology, it is important to me. I came to accept my beliefs as a Catholic and Christian by using a fair amount of reason along with faith. For example, history and archaeology Jerusalem was a major city. The Pharisees were a major religious group. There was a man name Jesus who was born in Nazareth and crucified by the Romans. There is a good amount of physical evidence...... With the BOM, I feel as if that evidence is lacking.

 

I was born Catholic and was a devout Catholic for 30 years.  I love the Catholic Church.  Every person have a completely unique journey in their path to God.  This is a glimpse into mine.

 

As a Catholic, I grew up praying through prayer books and iterative prayers like the rosary or the "bless us, oh lord, in these thy gifts..." way.  So, it was difficult for me to read something like the Book of Mormon and ask God in prayer if it is true.  There's no prayer book that deals with that.  And as a strong devout Catholic, reading the BOM and asking God if it is true was not the way for me.  Because, the Holy Spirit does not stand infront of me and tell me in words that yep, it is true.  The Holy Spirit works through impressions (a lot of times referred to as a whisper or a stupor of thought or a burning in the bossom)... The Holy Spirit has guided me through my spiritual growth in the Catholic Church.  I know how He talks to me.  It is different for everybody.  But I couldn't even form the question to ask in prayer if the BOM is true.  How can I?  My faith was rock solid in the Catholic Church and asking if the BOM is true puts a loud siren in my head that I'm treading on dangerous ground and I hear the voice of my mother yelling - I TOLD YOU NOT TO MARRY A NON-CATHOLIC!

 

Anyway, God works through us in a very unique way tailored to our own experiences and personalities.  I am a very logical person.  So the Holy Spirit worked through my logic.  If the Mormons I talked to would have told me that the things I learned to be true as a Catholic were wrong, there was no way I would have listened further.  Rather, I found that everything I learned to be true as a Catholic were enhanced - added to - which gave more clarity to my understanding and gave more light to my knowledge - more like an aha!, so that's why!  moment.  So that, looking back to what I knew then to what I know now, I can see clearly how limited I was in my Catholic learning because of a very few major missing doctrines.  It was not that it was wrong, rather, it was merely lacking.

 

So, what I'm trying to say is... trying to "prove out" Mormon doctrine by playing the "physical evidence" game is not gonna give you the answers you need, just like trying to explain how Noah fit all the animals in the ark and where all the water that covered the earth in the flood came from, is not going to prove to anybody that the Bible is true.  But... reviewing everything you learned as a Catholic on why God created man and looking at it in the light of the doctrine of pre-mortal existence might...  not saying that it will work for you, but it is an easier thing to figure out clear answers to.

 

So, my advice... if you really want to know if the Book of Mormon is true, you have to take it line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little, not just one tiny aspect and something as inconsequential as physical evidence, but through the doctrines of the faithful... because, it wouldn't matter one iota even if the archeology proves out if the doctrine does not make a lick of sense.

 

But, if it does, and you get a glimmer of light from things such as pre-mortal existence or eternal families, etc., that is absent in Catholic Teaching... then the fun begins... because eventually, there is no avoiding that big giant cliff called the Great Apostasy.... archeology becomes nothing more than chum to the Great Blue Whale putting in question the authority of the Bishop of Rome to lead Christ's church.  It was a very very tough road for me...

 

So, will the Holy Spirit testify that the Book of Mormon is true?  I guarantee you He will... but, you will have to first be ready and prepared to hear the answer... because... in my journey, it wasn't until I gained a solid testimony that the Catholic Church does not have the authority that I fell to my knees in fasting and prayer begging God to show me the way.   No prayer books.  I was desperately searching.  So that when I finally asked if the BOM is true, I was ready for the answer.  But even then, It took me over a year of study after I received that answer before I asked to be baptized by an LDS Priest.

[Quin]

2. What archaeological proof is there in the Americas that the Nephites and Lamanites existed, and had these great cultures that were destroyed? Also, what would you say to the critics who claim that there is no evidence of Jewish tribes coming to the Americas, and that several things mentioned in the BOM weren't around (steel, swords, horses, cattle, etc)?

Thanks!

I would invite you to study MesoAmerican & SouthAmerican Archeology!

The great benefit with the Middle East & a Classical education is that we've got Herodotus on up (including zillions spent by he Catholoc church, Crusading Nations, etc.) in exploration & research of the Fertile Crescent. The Islamic Empire is another huge contributor to the field. Quite literally countless scientists & explorers over more than 1,000 years have gone at the whole region with fine wire mesh.

Meso&South America?

Not so much. Archeology THERE is in its infancy!

Jungles don't help. East of the Andes (aka the Amazon) is particularly difficult.

Political climates are often quite volatile (with archeologists coming in to help ID bodies in mass graves more than true excavation).

HOWEVER... Despite climates that not only eat organic materials in weeks (as opposed to the desert of the Fertile Crescent, which keeps hints for thousands of years in virtually untouched state), despite politics that means that all the researchers & scientists heading into Meso & South America have to take out hefty kidnap & ransom insurance (and some years whole expeditions have to be cancelled, because a govt topples)...

We DO KNOW a startling amount of info that simply isn't taught in US K12 schooling (you pretty much have to take a meaoamerican archeology class in college).

I left school thinking there were Aztecs & Incas & Olmecs.

Nope. That's like saying Europe is England, Spain, & Portugal.

Or even that the entire world is England, Spain, & Portugal (since the 3 "split" the world between them).

There were DOZENS of civilizations in mesoamerica alone. Some we know were absorbed into larger empires, some moved into North or South America following drought, and some frankly disappeared (we have no idea, although lots of speculation). So,e of these cultures were HUGELY artistic & ritualized & there are stellar photographs of some of the burials that will blow your mind, if you thought the skull & bone artwork in France was amazing. This makes that look like a toddler did it!)

One of the western coastal peoples INVENTED cotton rope (and STIRRUPS! Millennia before stirrups were found in Europe!!!).

((Ahem. Why did they need stirrups, if they didn't have horses? We, as a species, HAVE ridden other horse-like animals brought history. Even if LLamas & their -now extinct- cousin do kind of look like the hairy cross between a horse & a camel, they're still rideable.

Another site has one of the (disputed, further testing in process) oldest finds of humans in the new world (Over 20,000 years). Some proponents think that they came from Asia by boat by way of island hoppin across the pacific. Others think that Vikings were continuo the coastal survey around the Cape the same way they did in Europe to reach the Middle East. We simply don't know. It's early days.

This is getting long.

Point being... Go check out the University library.

We know such a tiny FRACTION about meso & South American ancient history... Compared to Egypt & the Middle East... But there's enough in progress to set you hair on fire with all the things you were never taught.

Q

[Guest]

4. What is your belief on the Trinity? Do you believe that each aspect of it is a separate being?

 

 

This one is easy.

 

The LDS and Catholic understanding of One God differs, first and foremost, in what it is that makes them One.

 

That they are separate beings (the word used in the same context as persons) is the same.  Catholics believe there are three persons in One God.  LDS believes the exact same.

 

So... what makes them One?  In Catholic (Trinitarian) teaching, they are one in Physical Substance.  That Physical Substance is not something human beings can know as there is nothing else like it in the universe except God.  It is referred to as the Great Mystery.  In LDS teaching, there is no different Physical Substance that makes them God - God is an exalted Man.  What makes them One is their Perfection.  That is - One Will, One Purpose, One Desire, One Knowledge, One Love, etc. - One in Perfection.  And it is that Perfection that makes them God.  And it is that same Perfection that makes them One God.  And it is that Perfection that makes them God like no other god - because anyone else that is not united with that same Will, Purpose, Desire, Knowledge, Love, etc... is not God.

 

So that, when a Catholic says, "We can become god", it will never mean that we can be the same Physical Substance that God is - because we are human substance, not God substance.  But it will mean that we can be one in Perfection with God - it is at the core of our existence to strive for that Perfection.  When an LDS says, "We can become god", it means we can be one in Perfection with God - it is the core of our existence to strive for that Perfection - same as a Catholic.  But, as God is of the same substance as Man, then, if we achieve that Perfection, then we are God.  Yes, yes, the Catholic will always exclaim... that's blasphemy - you are putting yourself in the same level as God!  And the LDS will always respond... when you give birth to your own children and you become a father, does that make you in the same level as your own father?  Of course not - because your father will always be your father and greater than you regardless of whether you have twenty children or become the President of the United States...

[Lakumi]

My son or daughter would surpass me if they defeat me in time honoured combat!

If I ever have children (though I hope I don't) I will teach them that, that in order to surpass their father they must defeat me in combat with the weapon of warriors, the Bat'leth!

[Just_A_Guy]

Wow, great replies so far! Just an interesting tidbit: I found a Mormon lady online who was from Mexico. Her father was of Aztec descent, and they converted to LDS because her father said he would always hear stories passed down orally of a "great white God" who visited the people long ago and would one day return..... Jesus perhaps?

 

You're thinking of Quetzalcoatl; and yeah, some Mormons draw parallels between the legends of him and the Book of Mormon's account of Christ's ministry to the Nephites (the Aztecs were not the Nephites, by the way--they were a couple hundred years later).

 

Jesus wasn't white... I mean people who lived in Isreal 2000 years ago weren't white.

People in Europe just decided to paint him like that because, well they liked to feel white people were the best, there's Asian Jesus paintings in China and Black Jesus paintings in Ethiopia. He tends to change race to fit where the people are.

But as a Middle Eastern man he would have looked the par.

 

The jury's still out on Jesus' physical appearance.  He obviously wasn't European, but He wasn't an Arab either.  He was a Jew; and there's been so much migration and intermarriage that (contrary to the beautiful artwork in magazines like National Geographic) we can't extrapolate what they looked like two thousand years ago with any degree of certainty.

[Lakumi]

True, but we do know what he doesn't look like-and a white European wasn't it

[jerome1232]

True, but we do know what he doesn't look like-and a white European wasn't it

True, but modern day Jews look pretty gosh darn white to me today. Can you demonstrate to me exactly how it is that their skin tone has changed, and why you believe so firmly it was different 2k years ago?

(if this is to much of a tangent...)

[Lakumi]

True, but modern day Jews look pretty gosh darn white to me today. Can you demonstrate to me exactly how it is that their skin tone has changed, and why you believe so firmly it was different 2k years ago?

(if this is to much of a tangent...)

 

Because the Jews in Israel mostly came there after WW2 from the European countries conqured by the Nazi's, the UK owned the territory, having pushed out the Ottomon Empire that had come some centuries earler (then the crusades, yada, yada, yada) White people don't naturally come from such desert regions, and their skin lightened after they left Israel and lived in Europe, as evolution tends to do over the span of many centuries.

There is no white people indegenious to the middle east, why would there be some there?

No one in the bible was white, the Ancient Egyptians for example were black, the arabs there now came much later.

The Romans were white, but they came there, the "natives" wouldn't have been, there couldn't have possibly been a group of white people surrounded by arabs natrually, if they didn't come from Europe, that's just not how humans work.

[The Folk Prophet]

Because the Jews in Israel mostly came there after WW2 from the European countries conqured by the Nazi's, the UK owned the territory, having pushed out the Ottomon Empire that had come some centuries earler (then the crusades, yada, yada, yada) White people don't naturally come from such desert regions, and their skin lightened after they left Israel and lived in Europe, as evolution tends to do over the span of many centuries.

There is no white people indegenious to the middle east, why would there be some there?

No one in the bible was white, the Ancient Egyptians for example were black, the arabs there now came much later.

The Romans were white, but they came there, the "natives" wouldn't have been, there couldn't have possibly been a group of white people surrounded by arabs natrually, if they didn't come from Europe, that's just not how humans work.

 

Yeah, but it's really a relative thing, isn't it. All Jesus would have had to appear is white relative to the ancient Lamanites for the tradition of the great white god to have been started. And we do not know how fair-skinned Jesus was or was not.

 

Moreover, and this is important too, I think, the Book of Mormon described him as clothed in a white robe. It might also be a reasonable guess that He may have glowed (though just as reasonable that He may not have) with glory. There are a variety of reasonable ways to see how the tradition of a great white god could have been started.

[Lakumi]

Yes, pure white robes that could never become dirty could gain a divine that name, though as said the Aztecs existed far after the Lamanites and Nephites were said to have existed, so they never would have seen Jesus.

The Aztecs weren't the nicest people, what with human sacrifice and cannibalism. I hardly think they'd keep worshiping Jesus amongst all the other Gods they had and do that at the same time, especially so long after the fact.

That's assuming that Jesus was ever down that far south at all.

[The Folk Prophet]

Yes, pure white robes that could never become dirty could gain a divine that name, though as said the Aztecs existed far after the Lamanites and Nephites were said to have existed, so they never would have seen Jesus.

The Aztecs weren't the nicest people, what with human sacrifice and cannibalism. I hardly think they'd keep worshiping Jesus amongst all the other Gods they had and do that at the same time, especially so long after the fact.

That's assuming that Jesus was ever down that far south at all.

 

Your bitterness is showing through.

 

A simple traditional concept does not require worship. You're stretching here.

[Lakumi]

Your bitterness is showing through.

 

A simple traditional concept does not require worship. You're stretching here.

elaborate please