Praying to know the Bible is scripture

[MrShorty]

A few days ago, I was listening to the conclusion of one Pastor Erwin Lutzer's radio messages (http://www.moodymedia.org/radio-programs/running-to-win-25/father-we-worship-part-1/). After concluding the "sermon", he came on to make a few closing remarks (about minute 18). I was really intrigued by some of the things he said. In particular, he suggests "getting on your knees" to ask God if the Bible is really His word or men's words, then study the Bible. By doing this, he believes that the Holy Spirit will help us see that the Bible is indeed God's word to us. What I find intriguing is that this is, almost word for word, the exact same process we LDS ask people to go through to determine if the Book of Mormon is scripture, if Joseph Smith was a prophet, and so on -- it is  the same process recommended by Moroni in Mor 10:3-5.

 

1) I guess I find it interesting that Pastor Lutzer (and others, this isn't the first time I have seen this taught on a Christian radio program) sometimes do suggest this process for discerning truth. Perhaps because I also see many Christians who criticize us LDS for using this process to discern truth for ourselves.

 

2) Which of course leads to the second observation -- If this is indeed the process by which God confirms truth to humans, is there an explanation for why some people seem to get different answers from Him? While serving my mission, I had a few experiences that highlighted this question for me, and I'm not sure I fully understand (other than I have faith that God has His reasons, and I need to trust the answers He has given me). Some claim that those who get a different answer must be getting the answer from the "wrong" spirit (it doesn't seem to matter which of the LDS vs Christian aisle they are on), but I'm not sure I find that explanation satisfactory anymore.

 

Thoughts, if anyone is interested?

[Guest]

I know this has been discussed here before because I have answered this exact same question before.  I can't find my post on it - I have a jillion posts!  Yikes!

 

Anyway... in summary:

 

Jesus is the Christ - it doesn't matter if a Baptist says it, a Catholic says it, or a Mormon says it...

 

Therefore, a Catholic following the strait and narrow path laid out by Christ is still on that path regardless of his being Catholic.  Because that is where he is in the line-upon-line, precept-upon-precept way of his own specific eternal progression...

 

The arrogance of religious folks is in the thinking that just because they believe their Church is the true Church, that somehow anybody who are not members of their particular brand of religion can't possibly be guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

And that's one of the biggest reasons I am Mormon.  Because the LDS faith do not promote that garbage - even if its membership sometimes do... and even when you don't find your way to the authorized ordinances in this life, you still have that chance in the next...

[Dravin]

 

1) I guess I find it interesting that Pastor Lutzer (and others, this isn't the first time I have seen this taught on a Christian radio program) sometimes do suggest this process for discerning truth. Perhaps because I also see many Christians who criticize us LDS for using this process to discern truth for ourselves.

 

 

I daresay that on my Mission I never encountered anyone who responded with, "The spirit has born witness to me." when responding to inquires about how they knew the Bible was the word of God. I'm not sure how much of that was simpley a case of a vocabulary gap or a case of a conceptual gap. The overwhelming response to praying about the Bible (or the Book of Mormon) was that it was tempting God and tantamount to doubting his word. I kinda got that viewpoint where the Book of Mormon was concerned because they were operating from the premise that the Book of Mormon and the Bible where at odds, but that response with respect to the Bible was one I always felt kinda curious.

 

Obviously it's not like I had said conservations in a systematic manner with every Christian I encountered so I can't say how representative it was, but I do have to say I find Pastor Lutzer's comment to be kinda surprising given my personal experiences.

[The Folk Prophet]

I know this has been discussed here before because I have answered this exact same question before.  I can't find my post on it - I have a jillion posts!  Yikes!

 

Anyway... in summary:

 

Jesus is the Christ - it doesn't matter if a Baptist says it, a Catholic says it, or a Mormon says it...

 

Therefore, a Catholic following the strait and narrow path laid out by Christ is still on that path regardless of his being Catholic.  Because that is where he is in the line-upon-line, precept-upon-precept way of his own specific eternal progression...

 

The arrogance of religious folks is in the thinking that just because they believe their Church is the true Church, that somehow anybody who are not members of their particular brand of religion can't possibly be guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

And that's one of the biggest reasons I am Mormon.  Because the LDS faith do not promote that garbage - even if its membership sometimes do... and even when you don't find your way to the authorized ordinances in this life, you still have that chance in the next...

 

I read his question more as why do some get negative answers when praying about the Book of Mormon (or Bible). That is a more difficult question, even allowing (rightly) that the spirit can witness of truths in other religions which may not have the complete truth.

 

Moreover, it becomes more complicated if one claims to have received a witness from the Holy Spirit that a non-LDS religion is correct, true, right, what-have-you, and that they need no longer explore the truthfulness of other religions. By the LDS understanding, the Spirit could witness to someone the divinity of Christ even in the Catholic church, but it should not be witnessing to them that the Catholic church is the end-all, bees-knees of religions, if that makes sense.

[Guest]

I read his question more as why do some get negative answers when praying about the Book of Mormon (or Bible). That is a more difficult question, even allowing (rightly) that the spirit can witness of truths in other religions which may not have the complete truth.

 

Moreover, it becomes more complicated if one claims to have received a witness from the Holy Spirit that a non-LDS religion is correct, true, right, what-have-you, and that they need no longer explore the truthfulness of other religions. By the LDS understanding, the Spirit could witness to someone the divinity of Christ even in the Catholic church, but it should not be witnessing to them that the Catholic church is the end-all, bees-knees of religions, if that makes sense.

 

That makes sense.

 

The Holy Spirit speaks to us in different ways.  But, it never (well, at least almost never) speaks to you in complete English sentences...

 

So, one is praying... is the Book of Mormon true?  You don't really get the Holy Spirit saying to you, NO.  What you get is a feeling, an impression, a however-the-Spirit-speaks-to-you manner that we interpret to be a negative.  It doesn't come with long wordy paragraphs explaining why it is a negative.

 

So, this negative impression could mean

- "your heart is still solid as a rock and is just not ready to hear what the Lord has to say about it."

- "you first need to master and understand what your priest is trying to teach you before tackling something else".

- "well, I would have said yes except you read the BOM and had a completely incorrect understanding of what it is saying - so, you want to know if it is true the way you understand it?  Well... surely it is a No".

- "If I tell you Yes now, you're going to leave your wife and kids and kill your dog... so I'm going to say No for now".

 

Or simply - "not yet."

[The Folk Prophet]

That makes sense.

 

The Holy Spirit speaks to us in different ways.  But, it never (well, at least almost never) speaks to you in complete English sentences...

 

So, one is praying... is the Book of Mormon true?  You don't really get the Holy Spirit saying to you, NO.  What you get is a feeling, an impression, a however-the-Spirit-speaks-to-you manner that we interpret to be a negative.  It doesn't come with long wordy paragraphs explaining why it is a negative.

 

Hmm. I'm not sure I agree. The spirit speak through our minds and our hearts. Thoughts we have (that include long wordy paragraphs) as certainly within the scope of that. Moreover, I'm not sure we can bottle how the spirit speaks to individuals, as it is decidedly unique to each -- with some consistent factors.

 

- "If I tell you Yes now, you're going to leave your wife and kids and kill your dog... so I'm going to say No for now".

 

I do not believe it works this way. I do not believe the Spirit would ever say "No" in response to "Is the Book of Mormon true?" That would make a liar of the Spirit, something God cannot do.

 

Remain silent? Sure. Speak something false? No.

 

If someone receives a negative feeling as to the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon or related gospel truths, I would contend that it is simply not the Spirit.

[MrShorty]

 

If someone receives a negative feeling as to the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon or related gospel truths, I would contend that it is simply not the Spirit.

 

However, those on the other side of the aisle would contend that, if someone receives a positive feeling as to the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon or related truths, then these feelings are not the Spirit. It might be true, but it suggests that there are many spirits out there impersonating The Holy Spirit, and doing so quite successfully.

[Guest]

Hmm. I'm not sure I agree. The spirit speak through our minds and our hearts. Thoughts we have (that include long wordy paragraphs) as certainly within the scope of that. Moreover, I'm not sure we can bottle how the spirit speaks to individuals, as it is decidedly unique to each -- with some consistent factors.

 

 

I do not believe it works this way. I do not believe the Spirit would ever say "No" in response to "Is the Book of Mormon true?" That would make a liar of the Spirit, something God cannot do.

 

Remain silent? Sure. Speak something false? No.

 

If someone receives a negative feeling as to the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon or related gospel truths, I would contend that it is simply not the Spirit.

 

But see - you're associating negative feeling to No, the Book of Mormon is NOT true.  Of course, this is not the case, if so, then it is not the Spirit.

 

I have experienced this first hand, so I can only base what I know to what I have personally witnessed... as, like I said, the Spirit speaks to us in different ways.

 

I wrote about my experience on this here on lds.net... I can't find it.  But, a very short snippet of something I went through... I have a strong testimony of the truth of the Catholic Church... now, I pick up the BOM and even before I read the first word, I offered a short prayer and already have a negative feeling...

 

The first time my husband took me to the temple - we walked the temple grounds.  I prayed and had a negative feeling... and then a snake rose up from the bushes lining the temple walls... the bushes was about 3 feet tall and the snake was standing a foot above it and from the pavement I was eye to eye with the snake... I was convinced the temple is of the devil.

 

Was that the wrong Spirit talking to me through the Catholic Church?  No.  Was it the wrong Spirit giving me negative feeling as I pick up the BOM?  No.  Was that a bad Spirit giving me negative feelings at the temple?  No.  And I say all that because every single thing that has happened has walked me little by little by little to the one and only path that has led me to baptism... I simply had to analyze exactly what the negative feeling meant instead of jumping to the wrong conclusions especially with that snake.  I have learned to discern which is Spirit and which is not.  I can't explain it to you because I can't put it into words.  And these experiences are definitely the Spirit as far as I can testify of it.

[The Folk Prophet]

...but it suggests that there are many spirits out there impersonating The Holy Spirit, and doing so quite successfully.

 

Yes it does.

 

 

However, those on the other side of the aisle would contend that, if someone receives a positive feeling as to the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon or related truths, then these feelings are not the Spirit.

 

I believe -- and obviously I can't prove it -- that many who so argue know in their inner most hearts that they are deceived and lying. There is something compelling that leads them to suppress what they actually know to be true. An example of this is given in the Book of Mormon in Korihor (Alma 30):

 

...yea, and I always knew that there was a God.

 53 But behold, the devil hath deceived me; for he appeared unto me in the form of an angel, and said unto me: Go and reclaim this people, for they have all gone astray after an unknown God. And he said unto me: There is no God; yea, and he taught me that which I should say. And I have taught his words; and I taught them because they were pleasing unto the carnal mind; and I taught them, even until I had much success, insomuch that I verily believed that they were true; and for this cause I withstood the truth, even until I have brought this great curse upon me.

 

Lest I am misunderstood, I am not saying that everyone who believes the LDS church is false or that their church is true is a Korihor and secretly knows better. I am saying that when people listen to false spirits and/or impressions and then justify them, or deny the true spirit when it is plain before them, that they likely really know better.

[The Folk Prophet]

But see - you're associating negative feeling to No, the Book of Mormon is NOT true.  Of course, this is not the case, if so, then it is not the Spirit.

 

I am not associating these things. I am responding to a statement you made that seemed to associated these things -- at least that's how I read your statement. That is to say, you implied with this: "If I tell you Yes now, you're going to leave your wife and kids and kill your dog... so I'm going to say No for now". that the spirit might tell someone no.

 

However, I don't want to fall into a meaningless debate. Maybe I don't know what you're really saying. I question the idea that the spirit would give negative feelings. I would contend, as for my thinking, that the spirit may allows for negative feelings as influenced by other sources, and as with all things, can turn things for our good if we remain humble and continue to ask, seek, and knock. I don't believe the spirit does negative feelings.

 

I don't believe that someone following the admonition of Moroni will get any answer but "yes". If they get another answer, it is either because they have not properly prepared themselves, have failed to do as directed, or it is because the answer they get is not from God and they have allowed themselves to be deceived.

 

I think that this part of the promise, "...with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ..." is often misunderstood. It is a strict requirement that comes easy to some and very difficult for others. The complexity of qualifying on all three (as well as the directive to "receive" these things and "ponder" them) is, I believe, significant.

 

I would be highly interested in your story if you can find it or want to re-tell it.

[MrShorty]

Yes it does.

 

 

 

I believe -- and obviously I can't prove it -- that many who so argue know in their inner most hearts that they are deceived and lying. There is something compelling that leads them to suppress what they actually know to be true. An example of this is given in the Book of Mormon in Korihor (Alma 30):

 

...yea, and I always knew that there was a God.

 53 But behold, the devil hath deceived me; for he appeared unto me in the form of an angel, and said unto me: Go and reclaim this people, for they have all gone astray after an unknown God. And he said unto me: There is no God; yea, and he taught me that which I should say. And I have taught his words; and I taught them because they were pleasing unto the carnal mind; and I taught them, even until I had much success, insomuch that I verily believed that they were true; and for this cause I withstood the truth, even until I have brought this great curse upon me.

 

Lest I am misunderstood, I am not saying that everyone who believes the LDS church is false or that their church is true is a Korihor and secretly knows better. I am saying that when people listen to false spirits and/or impressions and then justify them, or deny the true spirit when it is plain before them, that they likely really know better.

 

I can't say either how many are knowingly deceived and how many are sincer in their belief. I would expect that most are sincere in believing that God has directed them to where they are. It really makes me think on the question and process of discernment.

[The Folk Prophet]

I can't say either how many are knowingly deceived and how many are sincer in their belief. I would expect that most are sincere in believing that God has directed them to where they are. It really makes me think on the question and process of discernment.

 

That is interesting for sure. And we really don't know.

 

My only thought in response is that sincerity is not the full equation. I agree that most are sincere. But what ultimately drives them? An honest and true desire to give up their wills in favor of God's? Or are they sincerely driven by something else? It is very difficult to truly be humble and concede that one's own thoughts and will do not matter. I suspect that at some level we are all driven by other desires that inhibit our potential for spiritual direction and growth.

 

I can't see someone truly humbling themselves, honestly praying to the Lord in sincerity and then coming to the conclusion that the Book of Mormon is a Satan' spawned wicked lie contrived by a con man. Therefore, I believe that anyone who would so contend ("I have a spiritual witness that the Book of Mormon is false" or the like) is, at some level, deceiving themselves.

 

I have no doubt that even truly wicked men are sincere. I would expect that the "I'm evil. I know it and I love it." attitudes are fairly rare. But even that would be sincere from a certain perspective. And even that would be deceiving themselves.

 

I think the "mists of darkness" brought about by sin is an interesting thing. From the experience I've had with those who have stepped into the mists (or left the strait and narrow path and the iron rod, if you will) -- they become truly blind in a way. The mists of darkness are practically literal (though obviously not literally literal :) ). They simply cannot see right from wrong. They cannot understand good. They are blind to it.  And yet, I expect that when judgment day comes that everyone of us who allowed ourselves to be blinded will freely admit, "I knew better." The rare exceptions to this will likely not be accountable.

[MrShorty]

From the point of view of those on the other side of the aisle, though, it would be we who are unwilling to give up our will to the will of the Father, we who have not been truly sincere in our desires, that we are the ones who are deceived and will one day acknowledge that we have been deceived. I'm not sure that I have as completely and unreservedly yielded my will to the will of the Father as many non-LDS Christians I meet -- why should I have the privilege of knowing "the one truth" while God allows others to be deceived by false spirits?

 

In addition to a question of discernment, I'm also seeing a principle of faith. Perhaps I cannot know for certain that I am not deceived. On the other hand, I cannot become paralyzed with fear that I might be in the wrong. I must proceed with what I know/believe to be true, trusting that, where I am wrong, God will correct in His own time and manner.

[The Folk Prophet]

From the point of view of those on the other side of the aisle, though, it would be we who are unwilling to give up our will to the will of the Father, we who have not been truly sincere in our desires, that we are the ones who are deceived and will one day acknowledge that we have been deceived. I'm not sure that I have as completely and unreservedly yielded my will to the will of the Father as many non-LDS Christians I meet -- why should I have the privilege of knowing "the one truth" while God allows others to be deceived by false spirits?

 

I do not believe it. The idea is not in accord with principles taught in the scriptures. For example, D&C 76:75 - per the terrestrial kingdom - "These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men." In other words, deceived. Moroni 10:4: "and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost." Is this a lie? Can we really ask God with a sincere heart, real intent, and faith in Christ and believe that God will not do as He promises?

 

 

In addition to a question of discernment, I'm also seeing a principle of faith. Perhaps I cannot know for certain that I am not deceived. On the other hand, I cannot become paralyzed with fear that I might be in the wrong. I must proceed with what I know/believe to be true, trusting that, where I am wrong, God will correct in His own time and manner.

 

From a certain point of view, yes. But from another point of view, once the spirit has spoken to you, you know, and it is no longer faith - at least in that particular thing. Alma 32:34 - "And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand." 

 

It is not as complicated as you are implying. The discernment of the spirit is plain, not muddled. Jacob 4:13 - "Behold, my brethren, he that prophesieth, let him prophesy to the understanding of men; for the Spirit speaketh the truth and lieth not. Wherefore, it speaketh of things as they really are, and of things as they really will be; wherefore, these things are manifested unto us plainly, for the salvation of our souls. But behold, we are not witnesses alone in these things; for God also spake them unto prophets of old."

 

Those on the other side of the aisle, as you put it, may be blinded, confused, unknowledgeable, or unfamiliar. That does not make them bad, but it doesn't prove that someone who has had a true witness of the Spirit is also confused.

[The Folk Prophet]

Ran across this quote and though it was applicable. Interesting food for thought, I think:

 

“Nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God” (Jospeh Smith - History of the Church, 4:573)

[James1]

Hello, just wanted to share some thoughts. Do we look for a feeling or base truth on what the Bible says? Let's take a look.

Jeremiah 17:10 says, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

In Acts 17:11 Paul and Silas are kicked out of Thessalonica. They come to Berea and begin to preach the Gospel. Now, the

Bereans have never seen Paul and Silas before, nor have they heard this Gospel. How are they going to know that it is true? If the Mormon position is right, we should read that they hit their knees and began praying to receive a testimony. Is this what we find? No. Acts 17:11 says:

"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

The word of God was the standard the Bereans appealed to, not their emotions.

Now, it is true that James tells us that if we lack wisdom, we are to ask of God. However, it is important to note that the word used at James 1:5 is wisdom (Gr: sophia), not knowledge (Gr: gnosis). Hence we see that the Bible does not contradict itself, but does indeed tell us that God's revealed Word is the final authority, not our feelings or prayers, no matter how strong those feelings, or sincere those prayers.

[James1]

I don't mean to have an "I'm right and you're wrong" mentality. I just wanted to share with you what the Bible indicates. We have to base truth on the word of God. If we get a feel on that or somebody says something that contradicts what the bible says then that thought or feeling is false if it doesn't line up with what the bible already says.

[MrShorty]

Thank you for pitching in James1. Since the discussion started with a statement from an Evangelical pastor, I was hoping someone from your side of the aisle would pitch in a few thoughts.

 

If I may ask, if you were responding directly to Dr. Lutzer rather than on an LDS message board, would your response be any different?

 

Hence we see that the Bible does not contradict itself, but does indeed tell us that God's revealed Word is the final authority, not our feelings or prayers, no matter how strong those feelings, or sincere those prayers.

I think I can agree with you on this. In many ways, I think it is the same thing that TFP was arguing for (though obviously from a decidedly LDS POV). In some ways, you both seem to me to be making the same argument -- the only difference being what you each consider to be part of the scripture canon. It almost becomes circular, since the question originally started with "how to discern whether the Bible is supposed to be scripture/part of scripture."

 

I find questions around discernment quite fascinating. In your understanding, James1, what is the Holy Spirit's role in discerning truth and error?

[Dorian]

This highlights a very serious reason why I couldn't become LDS. Relying on a testimony of the spirit to ascertain the truth of Mormonism sounds nice and pious, but really it reduces the quest for truth down to subjective feeling. In fact, I think this is one of the reasons the LDS church has such a hard time retaining converts. After a year or two the 'convert zeal' simply wears off and their has to be something stronger than warm feelings in the bosom holding up your faith. I'm a convert (to Catholicism), so I should know. I'm not saying that feeling and personal experience (or personal revelation/testimony) have no place is forming our religious beliefs, but being told by the missionaries to just pray about it and any warm and fuzzy feelings I get are confirmations from God that the LDS Church is true was way too hard to swallow.

 

Let's face it, people of all different religions employ this approach all the time. I've heard a convert to Islam explain that they prayed to God to reveal the truth to him and that night he dreamt about the Quran, then the next day came across Muslims proselytising on the streets and he's now a devout Muslim. You hear Evangelical Christians talk about being overwhelmed by a warm, peaceful feeling at their lowest (often to do with alcohol/drug addiction) and then converting all the time. If our measure of truth is going to be a personal testimony that comes in the form of nice emotions then God is giving a whole lot of different answers to different people. It doesn't do to explain away the religious experiences of non-LDS people to appeal to the Devil, because they'd do the exact same in regards to your personal testimony and it really gets us nowhere. 

 

This is one of the things I love about Catholicism: the complementarity of faith and reason. In fact, when I was converting to the Church, the priest explicitly told me not to base this decision on emotion because emotions come and go. The emphasis the Catholic Church places on coming to know God through nature and philosophy, and Her ability to trace Her history back to the very time of Christ, is what I think finally allowed me to take that leap of faith.

[The Folk Prophet]

but really it reduces the quest for truth down to subjective feeling.

 

Those who have truly experienced the Spirit know better. It's not a warm fuzzy or a feeling of happiness. It is quite concrete. It is no more or less subjective than knowing the sun is shining.

 

In fact, I think this is one of the reasons the LDS church has such a hard time retaining converts. After a year or two the 'convert zeal' simply wears off and their has to be something stronger than warm feelings in the bosom holding up your faith.

 

This may be true, but it is either because they did not truly experience the Spirit, relied on an emotional "feeling" instead, or else they let the spiritual experience dwindle in their memories because of failure to build upon their faith by continual feasting upon the word of God.

 

but being told by the missionaries to just pray about it and any warm and fuzzy feelings I get are confirmations from God that the LDS Church is true was way too hard to swallow.

 

You only think this because you have never felt the Spirit give pure knowledge to you.

 

When the spirit speaks you KNOW it. It's not just a "warm fuzzy". That's rhetorical baloney. It comes from trying to describe the indescribably, but it is entirely insufficient.

 

Let's face it, people of all different religions employ this approach all the time. I've heard a convert to Islam explain that they prayed to God to reveal the truth to him and that night he dreamt about the Quran, then the next day came across Muslims proselytising on the streets and he's now a devout Muslim. You hear Evangelical Christians talk about being overwhelmed by a warm, peaceful feeling at their lowest (often to do with alcohol/drug addiction) and then converting all the time. If our measure of truth is going to be a personal testimony that comes in the form of nice emotions then God is giving a whole lot of different answers to different people. It doesn't do to explain away the religious experiences of non-LDS people to appeal to the Devil, because they'd do the exact same in regards to your personal testimony and it really gets us nowhere.

 

They do not apply the "same" approach. Similar is not "the same".

 

The fact that people become "converts" to all sorts of things based on their feelings does not invalidate the witness of someone who has truly received communication from God. The cynicism of this approach is not useful. It's also not useful to teach those filled with pride and their own sense of wisdom that they must be humble and submissive. It does no good to explain to those who have never seen and felt the sun that their false claims of sunlight are blatantly obvious to those who have come out of the darkness if they refuse to experiment upon your path to the light themselves.

 

Moreover, it is not a sociological experiment. It is a personal witness, and it does not good whatsoever to compare experiences across cultures and religions. It doesn't matter how may cave-dwelling Morlocks' claim to understand sunlight in spite of the fact that they've never been above ground. I've been in the daylight and I know I have regardless of any other claims.

 

This is one of the things I love about Catholicism: the complementarity of faith and reason.

 

Any implication that the LDS religion does not approach the gospel with both faith and reason tells me that the person so implying has no real understanding of the LDS religion.

 

 

In fact, when I was converting to the Church, the priest explicitly told me not to base this decision on emotion because emotions come and go.

 

And reason doesn't? You mean to tell me that every "reasonable" thought you've ever had you still retain? So what you considered reasonable when you were 2 years old is still your view? So what we once thought was reasonable concerning science has never changed? You are incapable or unwilling to every update or alter your reason? Sounds like a sure path to growth.

 

Of course reason changes.

 

Reason and emotion must work hand in hand. Faith and the Spirit are something else entirely. But the Spirit must interact with us through our emotions and through our minds.

[Durzan]

Dang Folk Prophet, I think you may have just solved one of my problems inadvertently. 

 

One thing is for sure, the Spirit only gives us information that we are ready to understand, and ready to accept. Failing otherwise, he's just gonna give us warm fuzzies about what we already know... until the time comes that are open to the truth.

[faith4]

Those who have truly experienced the Spirit know better. It's not a warm fuzzy or a feeling of happiness. It is quite concrete. It is no more or less subjective than knowing the sun is shining.

 

You only think this because you have never felt the Spirit give pure knowledge to you.

 

When the spirit speaks you KNOW it. It's not just a "warm fuzzy". That's rhetorical baloney. It comes from trying to describe the indescribably, but it is entirely insufficient.

 

The fact that people become "converts" to all sorts of things based on their feelings does not invalidate the witness of someone who has truly received communication from God. The cynicism of this approach is not useful. It's also not useful to teach those filled with pride and their own sense of wisdom that they must be humble and submissive. It does no good to explain to those who have never seen and felt the sun that their false claims of sunlight are blatantly obvious to those who have come out of the darkness if they refuse to experiment upon your path to the light themselves.

 

Moreover, it is not a sociological experiment. It is a personal witness, and it does not good whatsoever to compare experiences across cultures and religions. It doesn't matter how may cave-dwelling Morlocks' claim to understand sunlight in spite of the fact that they've never been above ground. I've been in the daylight and I know I have regardless of any other claims.

 

 

I usually enjoy reading your posts TFP, however, your arrogance in this post, is a bit over the top.  Who are you to assume that this poster has never had any spiritual experiences, or witnesses, that has led him/her to where they are now?  Simply b/c this person is not LDS, you assume they couldn't have possibly felt the Spirit??  *Facepalm*  Lack of humility indeed!!  The OP is a very valid question, and as someone who ardently prayed and fasted about the veracity of the BOM and received a very definite negative witness, your ignorant replies that those on the "other side" are somehow deceiving themselves is insulting.  Have I felt the Holy Spirit?  Can I tell the difference between mere emotions and a truly answered prayer?  YES, YES and YES.  I have felt God Himself physically present before me, Love so great there are zero words in the human language to adequately describe Him and just how beautiful He is (I had no visual, but trust me, I didn't need one, I probably would've passed out!!!).  He didn't speak audible words to me, but He spoke gently to my heart, my very soul, just how much He loved ME.  This beautiful grace, so completely unexpected, is more than I could have ever hoped to receive, but I know now that that is what I was made for, to receive this Love and to love Him in return w/everything that I am, and that is what I strive for each and every day.  This is only one of many, many experiences, which can only be ascribed to God, which have guided me into the faith I am now, and I couldn't be anymore in love with Love!  A joy so great, I feel as though I could burst at times, and a peace in my soul that surpasses anything I've known or felt before.  Freedom so sweet, I know that there truly is nothing in this world to fear.  And I believe that you, as a mormon, can feel this too, I refuse to box this in as only a thing Catholics can know and experience. 

   

So do I believe other people of other faiths can also receive spiritual experiences by the Holy Spirit?  Yes I do!  I believe God loves ALL of us so much that He is always calling to us, calling us to Himself, no matter what religion we ascribe to.  We are all on our own path home to God, and none of our paths are identical with anyone else's path.  Your cross to carry is not my cross.  And to those who truly love God and wish to know Him and listen to Him, they will receive witnesses from the Holy Spirit that God does exist and He loves us.  God will take each of us where we are and guide us to Himself in a way best suited to each individual.  Gods ways are mysterious, but I have faith that He will always bring the good about in every situation b/c He loves us so much. 

 

I have been in the daylight too Sir, and I know I have, regardless of whether or not you believe it to be possible. 

 

God bless!     

[The Folk Prophet]

I usually enjoy reading your posts TFP, however, your arrogance in this post, is a bit over the top.  Who are you to assume that this poster has never had any spiritual experiences, or witnesses, that has led him/her to where they are now?  Simply b/c this person is not LDS, you assume they couldn't have possibly felt the Spirit??  *Facepalm*  Lack of humility indeed!!  The OP is a very valid question, and as someone who ardently prayed and fasted about the veracity of the BOM and received a very definite negative witness, your ignorant replies that those on the "other side" are somehow deceiving themselves is insulting.  Have I felt the Holy Spirit?  Can I tell the difference between mere emotions and a truly answered prayer?  YES, YES and YES.  I have felt God Himself physically present before me, Love so great there are zero words in the human language to adequately describe Him and just how beautiful He is (I had no visual, but trust me, I didn't need one, I probably would've passed out!!!).  He didn't speak audible words to me, but He spoke gently to my heart, my very soul, just how much He loved ME.  This beautiful grace, so completely unexpected, is more than I could have ever hoped to receive, but I know now that that is what I was made for, to receive this Love and to love Him in return w/everything that I am, and that is what I strive for each and every day.  This is only one of many, many experiences, which can only be ascribed to God, which have guided me into the faith I am now, and I couldn't be anymore in love with Love!  A joy so great, I feel as though I could burst at times, and a peace in my soul that surpasses anything I've known or felt before.  Freedom so sweet, I know that there truly is nothing in this world to fear.  And I believe that you, as a mormon, can feel this too, I refuse to box this in as only a thing Catholics can know and experience. 

   

So do I believe other people of other faiths can also receive spiritual experiences by the Holy Spirit?  Yes I do!  I believe God loves ALL of us so much that He is always calling to us, calling us to Himself, no matter what religion we ascribe to.  We are all on our own path home to God, and none of our paths are identical with anyone else's path.  Your cross to carry is not my cross.  And to those who truly love God and wish to know Him and listen to Him, they will receive witnesses from the Holy Spirit that God does exist and He loves us.  God will take each of us where we are and guide us to Himself in a way best suited to each individual.  Gods ways are mysterious, but I have faith that He will always bring the good about in every situation b/c He loves us so much. 

 

I have been in the daylight too Sir, and I know I have, regardless of whether or not you believe it to be possible. 

 

God bless!     

 

You're inserting a whole bunch of garbage into what I said that I did not. That is not useful. I did not say no one but an LDS person has seen the light. The spirit speaks truth. There is truth outside the LDS church. Anyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ may have the spirit witness this too them.

 

I don't much appreciate your reading a bunch of ideas that weren't mine into what I said and then accusing me of arrogance. I never said the OP couldn't feel the spirit because they aren't LDS. That is a crock!

 

What I said, and I stand by it whether you think it's arrogant or not, is that warm fuzzies are not the spirit. If you had bothered to read my answer with a bit more care you'd clearly see that I was talking about LDS people too who have never truly felt the spirit.

 

So who's on the arrogance train here?

[faith4]

You're inserting a whole bunch of garbage into what I said that I did not. That is not useful. I did not say no one but an LDS person has seen the light. The spirit speaks truth. There is truth outside the LDS church. Anyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ may have the spirit witness this too them.

 

I don't much appreciate your reading a bunch of ideas that weren't mine into what I said and then accusing me of arrogance. I never said the OP couldn't feel the spirit because they aren't LDS. That is a crock!

 

What I said, and I stand by it whether you think it's arrogant or not, is that warm fuzzies are not the spirit. If you had bothered to read my answer with a bit more care you'd clearly see that I was talking about LDS people too who have never truly felt the spirit.

 

So who's on the arrogance train here?

 

Sorry man, I also stand by what I said, b/c that is exactly how it came across to me as a non-LDS browser.  Perhaps you didn't mean for it to come across as arrogant as it did, but it did.   

 

"The fact that people become "converts" to all sorts of things based on their feelings does not invalidate the witness of someone who has truly received communication from God. The cynicism of this approach is not useful. It's also not useful to teach those filled with pride and their own sense of wisdom that they must be humble and submissive. It does no good to explain to those who have never seen and felt the sun that their false claims of sunlight are blatantly obvious to those who have come out of the darkness if they refuse to experiment upon your path to the light themselves."

 

"Those on the other side of the aisle, as you put it, may be blinded, confused, unknowledgeable, or unfamiliar. That does not make them bad, but it doesn't prove that someone who has had a true witness of the Spirit is also confused."

 

"I believe that anyone who would so contend ("I have a spiritual witness that the Book of Mormon is false" or the like) is, at some level, deceiving themselves."

 

The "warm fuzzies" are not what I referred to as arrogant, I couldn't agree more with you more on that point, I'm referring to you judging the previous poster, implying that they have never received "pure knowledge" from the Spirit, and inserting your own garbage into what the previous poster wrote, about not converting based on emotion, you quoted her and replied,

 

"And reason doesn't? You mean to tell me that every "reasonable" thought you've ever had you still retain? So what you considered reasonable when you were 2 years old is still your view? So what we once thought was reasonable concerning science has never changed? You are incapable or unwilling to every update or alter your reason? Sounds like a sure path to growth". 

 

This is unnecessary and not at all what the poster was trying to say. 

 

If I have shown any arrogance, then God will judge me, but I will never deny you, nor any other Christian a truly authentic witness when it comes to the Holy Spirit and Truth, even if it leads them to a Church that I don't understand.  That is why I'm here, on this forum, to better understand my brothers and sisters in Christ, to learn directly from those who are authentically living their faith, rather than go to anti-mormon sites. 

 

God bless!  

[The Folk Prophet]

Sorry man, I also stand by what I said, b/c that is exactly how it came across to me as a non-LDS browser.  Perhaps you didn't mean for it to come across as arrogant as it did, but it did. 

 

Because you're making stuff up that I didn't say. You can pretend I said stuff I didn't all you want and take offense. Have at it. As you continue to do so, it's useless to continue this conversation.