The Witch of Endor

[nitram]

The 28th chapter of the biblical First Book of Samuel tells us about a desperate Saul who, after not receiving any answer from the LORD God, consulted a witch who lives at Endor, anonymously and in disguise. He asked that witch to summon the spirit of the dead prophet Samuel. When the king inquired as of what she can see, the witch replied, saying she saw "an old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle." (1 Sam. 28:14) The same verse tells us Saul "perceived that it was Samuel." Now, my questions are:

1. Was that old man covered with a mantle really Samuel... or was it someone/something else? Was the witch of Endor able to summon Samuel from the dead?
2. Did that spirit come from the Spirit World... or did it come from somewhere else?
3. Can witches/wizards/mediums/anyone summon a dead spirit from the Spirit World?
4. Can a spirit from the Spirit World go back to the "mortal world" and appear/talk to living people?

Thanks in advance!

 

P.S. I don't know if this is where I'm supposed to post my topic. I just felt this is the most appropriate place to do so. If ever this should've been posted somewhere else, kindly relocate my thread. TY.

[pam]

Didn't you submit this to Ask Gramps?

[jerome1232]

Or she just lied. That seems to be the usual method of psychics and their ilk.

[The Folk Prophet]

https://www.lds.org/manual/old-testament-student-manual-genesis-2-samuel/1-samuel-16-31-king-davids-call-to-lead-israel?lang=eng

 

Can One Possessed of an Evil Spirit Compel a Dead Prophet to Speak?

 

“The Witch of Endor, … instead of being a prophetess of the Lord, was a woman who practiced necromancy; that is, communication or pretended communication with the spirits of the dead; but she was led by a familiar spirit. In other words, she was a spiritual medium, similar to those modern professors of the art, who claim to be under the control of some departed notable, and through him or her to be able to communicate with the dead. It should be observed that in the seance with the king of Israel, Saul did not see Samuel or anybody but the medium or witch. She declared that she saw an old man coming up and that he was covered with a mantle. It was she who told Saul what Samuel was purported to have said. Saul ‘perceived that it was Samuel’ through what the witch stated to him. The conversation that ensued between Samuel and Saul was conducted through the medium. All of this could have taken placed entirely without the presence of the prophet Samuel. The woman, under the influence of her familiar spirit, could have given to Saul the message supposed to have come from Samuel, in the same way that messages from the dead are pretended to be given to the living by spiritual mediums of the latter days, who, as in the case under consideration, perform their work at night or under cover of darkness.

 

“It is beyond rational belief that such persons could at any period in ancient or modern times, invoke the spirits of departed servants or handmaidens of the Lord. They are not at the beck and call of witches, wizards, diviners, or necromancers. Pitiable indeed would be the condition of spirits in paradise if they were under any such control. They would not be at rest, nor be able to enjoy that liberty from the troubles and labors of earthly life which is essential to their happiness, but be in a condition of bondage, subject to the will and whims of persons who know not God and whose lives and aims are of the earth, earthy.” (Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 4:107–8.)

 

Can Familiar Spirits Prophesy the Future?

 

“It has been suggested that in this instance the Lord sent Samuel in the spirit to communicate with Saul, that he might know of his impending doom; but this view does not seem to harmonize with the statements of the case, made in the scripture which gives the particulars. If the Lord desired to impart this information to Saul, why did he not respond when Saul enquired of him through the legitimate channels of divine communication? Saul had tried them all and failed to obtain an answer. Why should the Lord ignore the means he himself established, and send Samuel, a prophet, to reveal himself to Saul through a forbidden source? Why should he employ one who had a familiar spirit for this purpose, a medium which he had positively condemned by his own law?

 

“‘But,’ it is argued, ‘the prediction uttered by the spirit which was manifested on that occasion was literally fulfilled. Israel was delivered into the hand of the Philistines, and Saul and his three sons and his armor bearer and the men of his staff were all slain. It was therefore a true prophecy.’ Admitting that as perfectly correct, the position taken in this article is not in the least weakened. If the witches, wizards, necromancers and familiar spirits, placed under the ban of the law, did not sometimes foretell the truth there would have been no need to warn the people against consulting them. If the devil never told the truth he would not be able to deceive mankind by his falsehoods. The powers of darkness would never prevail without the use of some light. A little truth mixed with plausible error is one of the means by which they lead mankind astray. There is nothing, then, in the history of the interview between Saul and the woman of Endor which, rationally or doctrinally, establishes the opinion that she was a prophetess of the Lord or that Samuel actually appeared on that occasion.” (Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 4:108–9.)

[nitram]

Didn't you submit this to Ask Gramps?

 

Gramps, is that you? :-) Yep, I did submit this to AskGramps.org. My purpose of asking this question here is to know the perspective of other Latter-day Saints on this. Anyway, if you really are Gramps, I want you to know that I'm one of your biggest fans. In fact, I bookmarked AskGramps.org. XD

 

Or she just lied. That seems to be the usual method of psychics and their ilk.

 

Ummm... If we were to read the verses that follow verse 14, we would know that the "old man in a mantle" and King Saul had a conversation about the latter's defeat in the hands of the Philistines. She couldn't have lied that she saw an "old man in a mantle." (I guess.)

[estradling75]

Simple...   The scriptures are full of references to lying, deceiving and false spirits.  The Warning in the scripture isn't that they don't  exist or have power, it that you can't trust them.  The biggest lie they can cause is for a person to think that they are on par with God and that we should listen to them over God.  That is the biggest deceit of all.

[jerome1232]

 

 

Ummm... If we were to read the verses that follow verse 14, we would know that the "old man in a mantle" and King Saul had a conversation about the latter's defeat in the hands of the Philistines. She couldn't have lied that she saw an "old man in a mantle." (I guess.)

I don't see why she couldn't have simply seen the writing on the wall.

[nitram]

The conversation that ensued between Samuel and Saul was conducted through the medium. All of this could have taken placed entirely without the presence of the prophet Samuel.

 

Thank you, sir, for sharing with us an article from the LDS Church's official website. While I don't want to question this supposedly official interpretation on 1 Samuel 28, I would just like to inquire as to why the author, in some particular verses of chapter 28, seems to be suggesting that it was really the dead prophet Samuel who Saul conversed with. These are the verses I'm talking about:

 

[15]And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. [16]Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? (1 Sam. 28:15, 16, KJV-LDS)

 

Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night. (1 Sam. 28:20, KJV-LDS)

 

Take note that nowhere in chapter 28 does it directly say that the prophet Samuel was not there and that the words the unfavored king heard were of the witch or another familiar spirit and not of the prophet... or did the authors and/or the translators just missed these parts? :)

 

P.S. I'm not yet taking sides on this one. This is why if you're going to notice, I'm playing safe with my words to avoid being misunderstood and, worse, being accused of teaching false doctrine. Now, if I ever misunderstood any statement from the Church or from you, my brother in Christ, please know that I gladly welcome corrections.

[The Folk Prophet]

in some particular verses of chapter 28, seems to be suggesting

 

Does not seem to be suggesting to me. Apparently it can be read differently by different people. (Surprise, surprise...you mean mankind can read the same Bible and have different interpretations from the meaning?!? Shocking!!)

 

The issue is easily resolved in my mind in the idea:

 

"It is beyond rational belief that such persons could at any period in ancient or modern times, invoke the spirits of departed servants or handmaidens of the Lord."

 

So I start from what I know to be true of the Gospel, and work from there. Therefore, it was not Samuel. It's not complicated.

 

Clearly the verses you indicate either suffer from a translation issue (likely) a change made by some translator somewhere (likely) or they are simply implying that they are from the perspective of Saul who believed he was talking to Samuel (likely). What they do not indicate is that God's prophet came when a necromancer called (ridiculously unlikely).

 

It's less about an official interpretation and more about the obvious conflict with known truths if it is interpreted as Samuel actually showed up.

[Just_A_Guy]

See also the Bible Dictionary entry for Samuel, which suggests as an alternative the possibility that it really was Samuel but that he came in spite of, rather than because of, the witch's unauthorized summoning.

 

I don't tend to get too hung up over the way various (and largely anonymous) Biblical authors chose to word things (suggesting that Samuel was subject to the witch's summoning; suggesting that Moses died rather than was translated; suggesting that the Lord hardened Pharoah's heart independently of Pharoah's own will . . . ad infinitum).  The reason we have modern prophets is (among other things) to clear up ambiguous records left by former prophets; and via Joseph Fielding Smith (as quoted in the manual/website cited above) we know that necromancers have no power over the spirits of the righteous dead.

[The Folk Prophet]

See also the Bible Dictionary entry for Samuel, which suggests as an alternative the possibility that it really was Samuel but that he came in spite of, rather than because of, the witch's unauthorized summoning.

 

I'm not sure it's so much suggesting as allowing for. However, it strikes me that there is too much in the way of conflict with the Lord's known method of communicating with us to make this reasonable. Still, as the Bible Dictionary rightly implies, we don't know for sure, and as you rightly imply, we shouldn't be too hung up on bible wording.

[mordorbund]

Did that spirit come from the Spirit World... or did it come from somewhere else?

 

That spirit came from the moon.... Endor's moon.

 

 

 

Was that old man covered with a mantle really Samuel... or was it someone/something else? Was the witch of Endor able to summon Samuel from the dead?

 

Oh, it was something else all right.

 

 

 

[The Folk Prophet]

 

That spirit came from the moon.... Endor's moon.

 

 

Oh, it was something else all right.

 

 

 

 

 

Hehe. I thought about making the same joke...but then thought...no...to immature... But the picture makes it work!!

[nitram]

It's less about an official interpretation and more about the obvious conflict with known truths if it is interpreted as Samuel actually showed up.

 

Brother,  I guess you missed this other possibility pointed out by our nice gentleman who goes by the forum username of Just_A_Guy.

 

See also the Bible Dictionary entry for Samuel, which suggests as an alternative the possibility that it really was Samuel but that he came in spite of, rather than because of, the witch's unauthorized summoning.

 

I don't tend to get too hung up over the way various (and largely anonymous) Biblical authors chose to word things (suggesting that Samuel was subject to the witch's summoning; suggesting that Moses died rather than was translated; suggesting that the Lord hardened Pharoah's heart independently of Pharoah's own will . . . ad infinitum).  The reason we have modern prophets is (among other things) to clear up ambiguous records left by former prophets; and via Joseph Fielding Smith (as quoted in the manual/website cited above) we know that necromancers have no power over the spirits of the righteous dead.

 

Thank you, sir, for brining this possibility up. :) I actually heard this explanation before from a pastor of the Protestant faith but I never knew that the the LDS Bible Dictionary also considers this as a possibility. But if Samuel did come there even not through the witch of Endor's summoning, then would that mean dead spirits can exit the spirit world before the ressurection, in contradiction with what an official LDS teaching manual entitled Gospel Principles says regarding the postmortal spirit world?

 

Heavenly Father prepared a plan for our salvation. As part of this plan, He sent us from His presence to live on earth and receive mortal bodies of flesh and blood. Eventually our mortal bodies will die, and our spirits will go to the spirit world. The spirit world is a place of waiting, working, learning, and, for the righteous, resting from care and sorrow. Our spirits will live there until we are ready for our resurrection. Then our mortal bodies will once more unite with our spirits, and we will receive the degree of glory we have prepared for. (source: Gospel Principles, Chapter 41: The Postmortal Spirit World, p. 241)

 

P.S. I apologize for being inquisitive.

[estradling75]

Brother,  I guess you missed this other possibility pointed out by our nice gentleman who goes by the forum username of Just_A_Guy.

 

 

Thank you, sir, for brining this possibility up. :) I actually heard this explanation before from a pastor of the Protestant faith but I never knew that the the LDS Bible Dictionary also considers this as a possibility. But if Samuel did come there even not through the witch of Endor's summoning, then would that mean dead spirits can exit the spirit world before the ressurection, in contradiction with what an official LDS teaching manual entitled Gospel Principles says regarding the postmortal spirit world?

 

Heavenly Father prepared a plan for our salvation. As part of this plan, He sent us from His presence to live on earth and receive mortal bodies of flesh and blood. Eventually our mortal bodies will die, and our spirits will go to the spirit world. The spirit world is a place of waiting, working, learning, and, for the righteous, resting from care and sorrow. Our spirits will live there until we are ready for our resurrection. Then our mortal bodies will once more unite with our spirits, and we will receive the degree of glory we have prepared for. (source: Gospel Principles, Chapter 41: The Postmortal Spirit World, p. 241)

 

P.S. I apologize for being inquisitive.

 

You do know the Bolded and underlined part makes no limits to the possibility spirits visiting here.  They just don't reside here

[The Folk Prophet]

Brother,  I guess you missed this other possibility pointed out by our nice gentleman who goes by the forum username of Just_A_Guy.

 

I simply consider the idea beyond rational belief.

[nitram]

 

That spirit came from the moon.... Endor's moon.

 

 

Oh, it was something else all right.

 

 

 

 

 

Come on. My question was about a man covered with a mantle then you gave me an Ewok?!?

 

[nitram]

***

[The Folk Prophet]

Thank you, sir, for brining this possibility up. :) I actually heard this explanation before from a pastor of the Protestant faith but I never knew that the the LDS Bible Dictionary also considers this as a possibility. But if Samuel did come there even not through the witch of Endor's summoning, then would that mean dead spirits can exit the spirit world before the ressurection, in contradiction with what an official LDS teaching manual entitled Gospel Principles says regarding the postmortal spirit world?

 

 

The next secion of Gospel Principles:

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng

 

Where Is the Postmortal Spirit World?

Latter-day prophets have said that the spirits of those who have died are not far from us. President Ezra Taft Benson said: “Sometimes the veil between this life and the life beyond becomes very thin. Our loved ones who have passed on are not far from us” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1971, 18; or Ensign, June 1971, 33). President Brigham Young taught that the postmortal spirit world is on the earth, around us (see Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young [1997], 279).

[nitram]

***

[estradling75]

I simply consider the idea beyond rational belief.

 

Samuel would only show up if the Lord sent him.  (the witch has no power in that)

 

To make it work we would have to ponder on the why the Lord might do so, and on that I have an idea.

Saul was desperate for an answer. He tried the proper channels and was rejected due to his sins. Instead of taking this as a sign to repent Saul continued to try to force the issue by going contrary to the expressed will of God.

 

We know that God will answer all prayers.  Sometimes though we don't like the answer so we keep asking anyways.  Its possible that when we do this that the Lord will give us what we want, and it will condemn us more fully. (Example the lost 116 pages)  We get what we wanted and quickly learn why the God said no in the first place.

 

I could see that happening here with Saul.  God gave him exactly what he wanted to his further condemnation

[The Folk Prophet]

Samuel would only show up if the Lord sent him.  (the witch has no power in that)

 

To make it work we would have to ponder on the why the Lord might do so, and on that I have an idea.

Saul was desperate for an answer. He tried the proper channels and was rejected due to his sins. Instead of taking this as a sign to repent Saul contained to try to force the issue by going contrary to the expressed will of God.

 

We know that God will answer all prayers.  Sometimes though we don't like the answer so we keep asking anyways.  Its possible that when we do this that the Lord will give us what we want, and it will condemn us more fully. (Example the lost 116 pages)  We get what we wanted and quickly learn why the God said no in the first place.

 

I could see that happening here with Saul.  God gave him exactly what he wanted to his further condemnation

 

Possibly. I do not think so because the idea that God will give us what we want if we keep asking is not a true principle. If it were, I'd be a lot richer than I am. The story of the 116 pages was to teach a lesson, not to establish a principle.

 

But really, it belies the concept that God works through an established order. Going through a spiritual medium is not God's order. It's as simple as that to me.

[mordorbund]

Come on. My question was about a man covered with a mantle then you gave me an Ewok?!?

 

 

Have you never seen Robin Williams? Reduce his height a foot or two and this is exactly what you're looking at.

 

That "man" also has shoulder-to-shoulder carpeting.

His body wash is a 2-in-1 shampoo/conditioner.

He'll go for months without shaving because he wouldn't know where to stop once he started.

He would still be completely modest as a practicing nudist.

When he heard another fellow complaining about discovering errant hairs in his ear, Williams called him an "amateur".

When he gets lonely he dyes his hair red and waits for the hugs.

[nitram]

Ladies and gentlemen, brethren and sisters, it has been an enlightening exchange of thoughts with you. But it's already past midnight here in the Pearl of the Orient Seas. I'm also done working on our school project. Adieu! (On to spending the next 8-9 hours with my mattress...)

 

[Guest]

Have you never seen Robin Williams? Reduce his height a foot or two and this is exactly what you're looking at.

 

That "man" also has shoulder-to-shoulder carpeting.

His body wash is a 2-in-1 shampoo/conditioner.

He'll go for months without shaving because he wouldn't know where to stop once he started.

He would still be completely modest as a practicing nudist.

When he heard another fellow complaining about discovering errant hairs in his ear, Williams called him an "amateur".

When he gets lonely he dyes his hair red and waits for the hugs.

 

Mordorbund... this is so far from the truth that I fear for your... ahem... salvation.  Let me tell you the truth of the matter... he was a product of the first human trials of the Apollo Hair System.  He could have gotten rid of it by simply enrolling in the first human trials of Nair but he wanted to keep the evidence for his class action lawsuit.  He doesn't use body wash, and he does shave... to keep him looking cute and cuddly and sway the jury.