Are we righteously obligated to pursue wealth and influence?

[Backroads]

This is inspired by another thread that is probably derailed as it is, so I'm branching off.

The question was raised if we ought to be financially stable before starting a family. Which led me to wonder, if so, how much?

As a matter of self-reliance, does it behoove us to make as much money as we can? Can this be a righteous pursuit and if so, is it a matter of righteousness to try to pursue wealth? Do the more righteous seek wealth after more spiritual pursuits as opposed to those satisfied with low- to moderate-paying jobs?

On that note, is it equally righteous to pursue high-profile jobs?

Barring worship of wealth and power, they ate useful. They allow self-sufficiency, greater ability to help others, and ways to share the gospel. Not to mention they are evidence of hard work of talents and labor.

Disclaimer:These are just musings for discussion with no real opinion of my own attached.

[omegaseamaster75]

Self sufficiency is one of our core beliefs, the pursuit of wealth and influence it's a result of chosen professions, personality types and efforts put forth. Some people chose to enter a profession in which they will have no real "wealth" from a monetary stand point and there are also various measures of wealth.

In short no it is not unrighteousness if your desires are pure. Look at the quorum of the 70, the 12 and the first presidency many of them are very wealthy and are men of influence and power

[pam]

Self sufficiency is one of our core beliefs, the pursuit of wealth and influence it's a result of chosen professions, personality types and efforts put forth. Some people chose to enter a profession in which they will have no real "wealth" from a monetary stand point and there are also various measures of wealth.

In short no it is not unrighteousness if your desires are pure. Look at the quorum of the 70, the 12 and the first presidency many of them are very wealthy and are men of influence and power

 

Yet I don't think any of the 70 or the 12 or the first presidency made wealth any type of a priority.  Many just happened to be successful in careers that paid well.

[Crypto]

Money in and of itself is neutral. It's when, where, how, and why that can make it good or bad, righteous or unrighteous.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Crypto

[omegaseamaster75]

Yet I don't think any of the 70 or the 12 or the first presidency made wealth any type of a priority.  Many just happened to be successful in careers that paid well.

I would disagree, wealth true wealth is a conscious decision at some point it was a priority. It had to be.

[Backroads]

And I'd consider the 12 and Seventy righteous. They couldn't have been wrong to make wealth, or cultivating well-paying careers, a priority, albeit not the utmost priority. Is such a priority something that is best emulated?

[Crypto]

I personally think that pursuing after wealth with the intent of using it for others is a good thing. 

 

The rub is making sure that it isn't just about personal gain for the sake of gain,wealth,status,power,etc, and using the good things you could, can do with it as an excuse.

 

 

Also i'm not sure wealth is always a conscious decision, some people actually want to become [insert profession] for reasons other than the money that profession produces.

Maybe they thought it was Fun, or the enjoyed the relations they build with others, Maybe it was low stress and enjoyable, or maybe it was about the money.

[Suzie]

Being financially stable and pursuing wealth and influence are two different things. In the Book of Mormon, the Lord never condemned riches but condemned the attitude of the rich which was to look down to those who were financially poor, think they were better than them and basically show off their riches.

 

 

 

12 And now behold, my brethren, this is the word which I declare unto you, that many of you have begun to search for gold, and for silver, and for all manner of precious ores, in the which this land, which is a land of promise unto you and to your seed, doth abound most plentifully.

 

 13 And the hand of providence hath smiled upon you most pleasingly, that you have obtained many riches; and because some of you have obtained more abundantly than that of your brethren ye are lifted up in the pride of your hearts, and wear stiff necks and high heads because of the costliness of your apparel, and persecute your brethren because ye suppose that ye are better than they.

 

 14 And now, my brethren, do ye suppose that God justifieth you in this thing? Behold, I say unto you, Nay. But he condemneth you, and if ye persist in these things his judgments must speedily come unto you.

(Jacob 2)

 

Seeking after wealth does not seem to be the problem as long as the person has righteous desires to help the less fortunate. It would be interesting to discuss: How many people truly think about this righteous desire when we are in a position to help others? How many of us deep inside us see the less fortunate just like unto ourselves?

 

Think of your brethren like unto yourselves, and be familiar with all and free with your substance, that they may be rich like unto you.

 

 18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.

 

 19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

(Jacob 2)

[pam]

I would disagree, wealth true wealth is a conscious decision at some point it was a priority. It had to be.

 

I really have to disagree with this.  I look at Russell M. Nelson.  One of the top cardiac specialists in the nation at one time.  I don't think he chose this profession to become wealthy.  I'm sure it was nice to have a job that made his family comfortable but sorry..I just can't agree that he did it with the intent to become wealthy.

[Suzie]

Pam, I have the impression that you seem to have a problem thinking that the GA could have chosen career paths with the intent of becoming wealthy. What about if they did? Do you see anything wrong with that?

[estradling75]

I think before we can really discuss this we need to define wealthy.... because that is such a fluid and subjective number.  Most people would define it as "More then I make"

 

In the scriptures the Lord seems to see three categories wealth.

 

The Needy.  Those that can not provide for the basic needs of their life.

The Poor.  Those that can provide for their basic needs but no more.

The Rich.  Everyone else.

 

Most people (myself included) don't like this, because we don't feel Rich.  But when we look at it we really don't meet the definition of Poor or Needy.

 

But if we accept that as the definitions then very much yes the Lord expect and wants us to be 'Rich' we simply have to adjust our expectation to what Rich really means.

[The Folk Prophet]

I would agree with estradling75. The Lord would have us be able to help the poor, which requires us to have more than we require for ourselves. But would the Lord have us all be multi-millionaires? I think not.

 

I really think that the answer is individual. There are, IMO, undoubtedly those that the Lord would have rich, and undoubtedly those that the Lord would have poor. We do our best, struggle to be self-sufficient, obey the commandments, and trust the Lord's will be done.

[SpiritDragon]

Since this is a two part question dealing with wealth and influence, and since thus far mainly wealth has been discussed, let me talk about influence. I would say that we clearly try to develop influence (or should) in order to be successful missionaries. Often times this may not look like actively seeking out what may be considered positions of influence, but simply living our lives in harmony with the gospel which is different enough from mainstream that people take notice. On the other hand it very much can mean seeking out positions of influence, which can vary greatly. For instance a medical doctor may have a bit of influence over his/her patients that represent a different portion of the population than would be influenced by a police officer or even a naturopathic doctor.

 

In my own strange way I feel like I have somewhat been called to do what I do. As a fitness professional I have a decent amount of influence with my clients, a bit less with group exercise participants, and a little less still with rank and file gym members. Most recognize me as the authority to go to with fitness questions and many will also come to me for nutritional advice. I have taken nutritional training that allows me to give general advice to healthy populations, while I certainly can not give advice for treating specific conditions. This all fits into a blessing I was given years ago where I was told that I would be able to influence many to draw nearer to Christ by helping them live the word of wisdom more fully, which is why in my current position of influence I feel a greater purpose than merely bringing home bacon.

 

I kind of look at wealth and influence in the same context I look at gifts of the spirit; to some it is given...

 

I am sure there is a lot of good that can be done by the attainment of abundant wealth, and it is important to have needs met. I am in a hurry right now so I do not have the reference, but there is a biblical verse that talks about a man not providing for his family being worse than an infidel. A painful verse for any man to read when he is not in a financially fantastic position (unemployed). The clincher is when the love of money supersedes the love of god, when the pursuit of wealth becomes more important than serving the people around you than a problem clearly exists. Some are tried through wealth, while others are tried through poverty. The Lord knows His sheep and blesses them or curses them according to their need. It can be hard to be humble when you have more money than you know what to do with. It can be hard to put time into callings when you feel the need to put in extra time at work to make ends-meet. 

[Traveler]

I grew up in a wealthy home but throughout my youth I thought we were poor.  As I learned that my father was both “rich” and well respected it was interesting to hear the advice he gave others.  I am somewhat sorrowful that wealth or the principles of wealth is not taught in our homes or schools.

 

The problem is not wealth but pride and selfishness.  So many times my father was sought out for advice in becoming wealthy.  I will not go into much of what my father taught because the basic principle of wealth is simple.  My father would tell people that he could teach someone to be wealthy in five minutes.  That is interesting – in 5 minutes you could be wealthy!!!  Just follow my father’s advice.

 

From my Father – THE TWO PRINCIPLES OF WEALTH

 

#1:  Learn to love and enjoy hard work.  Be willing and excited to do the things no one else wants to do.  Always do more than you are asked or expected and always accept less in pay than what you did is worth.  Work for the joy of working and accomplishing – never work for the money.

 

#2: Spend less than you earn.

 

The truth is that in general the principles of wealth are hated and despised.  So much are these principles hated that most people aspire to money in hope of avoiding the principles of wealth.  And because these principles are so hated many "Poor" people despise those that are wealthy and think they should be entitled to stuff even if they must go into debt to obtain it.

[The Folk Prophet]

#1:  Learn to love and enjoy hard work.  Be willing and excited to do the things no one else wants to do.  Always do more than you are asked or expected and always accept less in pay than what you did is worth.  Work for the joy of working and accomplishing – never work for the money.

 

#2: Spend less than you earn.

 

This pretty much sums up why I'm not wealthy.  The problem is that I'm finally getting there. Finally learning to enjoy work, and finally learning to be frugal. But, man-o-man, have I messed up things in my younger years by not having these things in place.

 

Edit: This is also the church's clear position on these things. You're father was wise.

[pam]

Pam, I have the impression that you seem to have a problem thinking that the GA could have chosen career paths with the intent of becoming wealthy. What about if they did? Do you see anything wrong with that?

 

And you have the wrong impression as to where my thoughts are.  I don't like general statements that those who are wealthy chose to be wealthy.  Or that it was the ultimate goal.  While there are many careers that GA's have been in where they were successful and made money but they went into it because that was what they wanted to do.

 

As far as a general authority choosing to be wealthy...as with anyone I would say it has to do with intent.  Are they wanting to use their wealth to splurge on the biggest house, grandest car, lavish vacations?  Or do they want to use part of that wealth in helping others?

[Backroads]

I grew up in a wealthy home but throughout my youth I thought we were poor.  As I learned that my father was both “rich” and well respected it was interesting to hear the advice he gave others.  I am somewhat sorrowful that wealth or the principles of wealth is not taught in our homes or schools.

 

The problem is not wealth but pride and selfishness.  So many times my father was sought out for advice in becoming wealthy.  I will not go into much of what my father taught because the basic principle of wealth is simple.  My father would tell people that he could teach someone to be wealthy in five minutes.  That is interesting – in 5 minutes you could be wealthy!!!  Just follow my father’s advice.

 

From my Father – THE TWO PRINCIPLES OF WEALTH

 

#1:  Learn to love and enjoy hard work.  Be willing and excited to do the things no one else wants to do.  Always do more than you are asked or expected and always accept less in pay than what you did is worth.  Work for the joy of working and accomplishing – never work for the money.

 

#2: Spend less than you earn.

 

The truth is that in general the principles of wealth are hated and despised.  So much are these principles hated that most people aspire to money in hope of avoiding the principles of wealth.  And because these principles are so hated many "Poor" people despise those that are wealthy and think they should be entitled to stuff even if they must go into debt to obtain it.

 

These really are the true principles of wealth.  Husband and I are trying to abide by them.  When we had the opportunity to rack up a bunch of money without too many expenses, we loved seeing all those numbers in the bank account and I think we developed a taste for keeping it there, i.e., not spending it all and instead managing it wisely.  Still a long way to go on how to think about money, but it's lovely.

 

I also thought of my brother.  If anyone in my family is going to be rich, it will be him.  He has an unglamorous job at a university bookstore that doesn't pay all that well (even though I think he gets to do cool things) but he also seeks out other opportunities.  He's on the "Music and the Spoken Word" staff and has purchased a drone that he is marketing well--he's been paid to film with that thing a clinic construction, some marathons, and he's currently making a bid for some stuff for the Church.  Wealth is somewhat important to him, and he's seeking out ways to earn it.

 

 

 

I think before we can really discuss this we need to define wealthy.... because that is such a fluid and subjective number.  Most people would define it as "More then I make"

 

In the scriptures the Lord seems to see three categories wealth.

 

The Needy.  Those that can not provide for the basic needs of their life.

The Poor.  Those that can provide for their basic needs but no more.

The Rich.  Everyone else.

 

Most people (myself included) don't like this, because we don't feel Rich.  But when we look at it we really don't meet the definition of Poor or Needy.

 

But if we accept that as the definitions then very much yes the Lord expect and wants us to be 'Rich' we simply have to adjust our expectation to what Rich really means.

 

 

Good question.  In my thoughts, I don't think I can define it any further than "more than I have".  If we ought to be always seeking improvement, could that not meant to always seek more wealth? (again, in accordance with the thread, always within in righteous mindset).

 

 

Pam, I have the impression that you seem to have a problem thinking that the GA could have chosen career paths with the intent of becoming wealthy. What about if they did? Do you see anything wrong with that?

 

If the utmost intent is to provide for one's family (above personal interests, social service, etc.) I don't see anything wrong with it.  Sorry to steal pam's question.

[Suzie]

And you have the wrong impression as to where my thoughts are.  I don't like general statements that those who are wealthy chose to be wealthy.  Or that it was the ultimate goal.  While there are many careers that GA's have been in where they were successful and made money but they went into it because that was what they wanted to do.

 

As far as a general authority choosing to be wealthy...as with anyone I would say it has to do with intent.  Are they wanting to use their wealthy to splurge on the biggest house, grandest car, lavish vacations?  Or do they want to use part of that wealth in helping others?

 

I see now your point of view.

[The Folk Prophet]

As far as a general authority choosing to be wealthy...as with anyone I would say it has to do with intent.  Are they wanting to use their wealthy to splurge on the biggest house, grandest car, lavish vacations?  Or do they want to use part of that wealth in helping others?

 

Or...were they guided, inspired, and blessed to be wealthy because of the special mission the Lord had for them?

[applepansy]

I believe that wealth will come to those who use it wisely in the pursuit of following Christ.

 

Example:  My husband's neighbors growing up were amazing people.  They didn't have money yet they found ways to help others financially and in all other ways.  When I started dating my husband I heard the story more than once of the wife going visiting teaching, finding a household with a broken toaster, going home to get her toaster to give to the family who needed one.  How I learned this was one day I heard "June gave the toaster away again".  The husband was the same.  They quietly and without fanfare served.  They both served at the Ward and Stake level and later in life he served as a temple sealer.

 

Several years ago they became wealthy.... millions and millions wealthy.  And it grew.  Their lifestyle didn't change other than he splurged on a new truck for ranching.  He still wore overalls for work and suits for church work.  When the wife died of cancer he didn't hire nurses, he took care of her himself at home with the help of their daughters.  If you met them on the street you would have no idea they were wealthy.  Their attitudes didn't change and they continued to help those around them, just in bigger yet meaningful ways.

 

There is a scripture about seeking wealth somewhere but I can't think well enough to remember where it is.  The jist is if we seek riches to to the Lord's work we will receive them.  I think this applies to the GAs.

[The Folk Prophet]

You know, as I think about it, finances and frugality is a big part of why my opinions tend so strongly towards obedience. I, very literally, was incapable of understanding these things in my younger years. I did not have the maturity I do now. I look back on it now and can't believe how stupid I was. And yet, I knew what the church taught, and I disregarded it in favor of my own feelings.

 

Looking back, I still believe that I was incapable of understanding frugality. But I know I was capable of obeying.

 

At my current state, I understand much more, and am much more capable of right choices on my own, but I'm also aware that I will continue to grow in understanding and maturity, and therefore, I still rely upon obedience as the paramount principle in the gospel.

 

Should we seek wealth? Who knows.

 

Should we obey? Yes. And as the principles of wealth (as Traveler described) are part of obedience, by so doing we are seeking wealth.

[omegaseamaster75]

I hate using personal examples because everyone's experience is different, but my mission president was a very young man when he was called to serve 41 yo with a young family. I had the blessing to serve with him in the offices of the mission and we came to know each other very well, I asked him how he became a mission president, and how he could afford to do it at such a young age. We had many great discussions about life in general.

 

Long story short he married young and knew he had to provide better for his small family, they lived on a very tight budget. He saved half yup half of every paycheck. In a couple of years he purchased a small business, he saved half of his income from that and purchased another one, with in a short period of time he owned multiple businesses and became a very wealthy man. This was premeditated and planned he wanted to live more than comfortably. He was friends with CEO's of major corporations. While on my mission we took a P day and played golf at a very exclusive club in Mexico. He told me he spent 125k on a membership in the states recently (this was 20 years ago now). The watch he wore cost as much as many peoples vehicles.

 

He is now a member of the 70

 

Wealth and influence did not fall into his lap he chose it.

[The Folk Prophet]

He told me he spent 125k on a membership in the states recently (this was 20 years ago now). The watch he wore cost as much as many peoples vehicles.

 

I'm not afraid to say it. This is disgusting, 70 or not.

[Backroads]

I'm not afraid to say it. This is disgusting, 70 or not.

 

I tend to agree here.  Now, I believe you get what you pay for and a quality item is a quality item (I think of anatess' designer shoes here) but there is a fine line in there somewhere.

[notquiteperfect]

There is a scripture about seeking wealth somewhere but I can't think well enough to remember where it is.  The jist is if we seek riches to to the Lord's work we will receive them.  I think this applies to the GAs.

 

Not sure if this is the scripture you're thinking of but the one that comes to my mind is in Matt 6:19, 33

As far as influence - this can be tricky.  My husband is in a position at work in which he oversees a lot of people and he has to be careful about what he says because some might take it to mean that if they don't do xyz or follow his example, they're job/progress is at risk or they might do xyz to try to gain favor.  So reaching a point of influence doesn't always mean you'll be able to have as much influence as you might think.