Eternal Families

[Sight Seeker]

When someone that has an immense love for his wife and children is unfortunate enough to go through a divorce, what is the Mormon stance on his ability to see and spend eternity with them?

I know that by definition, divorce means separation, but what if the two people that were married still love each other, albeit that in and of itself that was not enough to hold the marriage together here on earth?

And of the children born from that marriage - surely they cannot be separated from their parents for all eternity?

Any and all insight on this delicate topic is welcomed.

[pam]

Were these people sealed in the temple?  If so and the sealing has not been canceled they would still be sealed to each other.

[Str8Shooter]

Some things we have to wait for the judgment day of the Lord in order to know what is going to happen. I believe that the sealing powers cannot overcome unrighteousness. Divorce comes about from sin. Members of the family that are in sin cannot be brought along with other perfected members of the family. It is contrary to the laws of God.

I know this is a delicate topic, but I must be frank. A couple that says they love each other but not enough to stay together better have one of the three A's in their relationship (abuse, adultery, and/or addiction).

I feel that rising divorce rates have a lot to do with selfish, individualist desires by one or both parties involved. The devil rejoices and God grieves when this happens.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Str8Shooter

[estradling75]

Unless you personally do something to invalidate it...  You are still sealed to your kids.

 

The question we really don't grasp is what does that Sealing mean.  I have a feeling that physical distance is simply not going to be a issue for resurrected people.  So what does it mean to 'be with' someone if distance is not a factor?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Unless you personally do something to invalidate it...  You are still sealed to your kids.

 

The question we really don't grasp is what does that Sealing mean.  I have a feeling that physical distance is simply not going to be a issue for resurrected people.  So what does it mean to 'be with' someone if distance is not a factor?

My opinion is that it means they would share in each others successes in a similar way that God's glory is based in the success of others, the immortality and Eternal life of man. 

Why is it that we feel something different when our own child gets an A in class over any child who gets an A?  This is the source of eternal joy when it is not just based in personal achievement.  If joy is based in the success of others then it can be eternal and ever growing even after all is done with one self.

 

This is also why loving neighbors as self is so important as is charity being an essential characteristic of those in the Celestial Kingdom.  One cannot enjoy the success of others without it.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Seminarysnoozer

[Sight Seeker]

The person in this instance was not sealed to their spouse, although it is something that would likely have happened, had they stayed together.

I don't know all of the details regarding sin, although there was allegedly some sin(s) that contributed to the divorce. Even in that case though, would not sincere repentance and the great and true love that the person has for his family be a factor in spending eternity with them?

[Blackmarch]

actually I'd throw abuse, adultery, and neglect under addiction.

[paulsifer42]

Divorce comes about from sin.

 

Is this really an assumption we're going with in this discussion:  All divorce comes from sin?

[Backroads]

Where else would divorce come from? Give me any reason for divorce and I bet I could find a sin somewhere in the line.

[PolarVortex]

Where else would divorce come from? Give me any reason for divorce and I bet I could find a sin somewhere in the line.

 

I would tend to agree with this, provided we include "failure to work out disagreements like adults" as a sin.  I could imagine a marriage in which one spouse wants to save 50% of the household income for retirement and the other spouse wants to save very little but contribute lavishly to charities.  There's nothing inherently sinful about this, but it could easily lead to divorce if both spouses refuse to hammer out some compromise. 

 

I actually knew a couple like this, and I think their solution was to save hard now but leave everything to charity when both had passed.  (There were no kids.)

[classylady]

The person in this instance was not sealed to their spouse, although it is something that would likely have happened, had they stayed together.

I don't know all of the details regarding sin, although there was allegedly some sin(s) that contributed to the divorce. Even in that case though, would not sincere repentance and the great and true love that the person has for his family be a factor in spending eternity with them?

 

 

All the repentance and love that a person has for his ex would not negate the choice of the ex.  If takes both parties to agree to being together. If one party does not want to be with the other, in this life or the next, they won't be together.

[paulsifer42]

Where else would divorce come from? Give me any reason for divorce and I bet I could find a sin somewhere in the line.

One partner belongs to one faith while the other belongs to another.  Both are very active in their respective faiths and eventually differ significantly on what they see as very fundemantal principles to the point that they don't feel they can be  married any more.

 

For one example.

[Backroads]

I would tend to agree with this, provided we include "failure to work out disagreements like adults" as a sin.  I could imagine a marriage in which one spouse wants to save 50% of the household income for retirement and the other spouse wants to save very little but contribute lavishly to charities.  There's nothing inherently sinful about this, but it could easily lead to divorce if both spouses refuse to hammer out some compromise. 

 

I actually knew a couple like this, and I think their solution was to save hard now but leave everything to charity when both had passed.  (There were no kids.)

Oh, yes. I certainly do consider such inability to discuss things a sin.

[Backroads]

One partner belongs to one faith while the other belongs to another.  Both are very active in their respective faiths and eventually differ significantly on what they see as very fundemantal principles to the point that they don't feel they can be  married any more.

 

For one example.

Yes, there are sins here. Choosing to marry without agreeing to respect one another. Inability to discuss differences. Possibly even getting married without full awareness of the difficulty of different faiths.

[paulsifer42]

Yes, there are sins here. Choosing to marry without agreeing to respect one another. Inability to discuss differences. Possibly even getting married without full awareness of the difficulty of different faiths.

 

We are taught we aren't judged for what we don't know is wrong (ie. it's not a sin unless we know it's wrong), therefore, them not knowing the the difficulty arising from different faiths would not be a sin.

 

Also, it may not be a lack of respect.  I respect many people with different beliefs, but I don't think a marriage with them would work out very well.  Also, beliefs change, degrees of spirituality change.  I'm saying they could both have changed, but in different directions.  None of this is sin.

[yjacket]

The Light of Christ is given to all of us and while many times we may not know all the degrees that we can sin in, we can all know when we have sinned.  Knowledge of the gospel can give us apriori knowledge of sin, while the Light of Christ can tell us aposteriori or in the moment of sin. 

 

If a member has married someone outside of the faith and the differences of religion cause a divorce somewhere sin has been committed.  The scriptures plainly teach that marriage outside of the faith is not a good idea and that the Lord cursed many individuals who married outside.  It may not be PC to say it, but in my life I have seen too much heartache caused by marrying outside the faith.

 

In LDS beliefs, the highest degree of glory is the Celestial glory and the highest in the Celestial kingdom comes about by being sealed to one's spouse in temples.  Without being sealed, one will never reach the highest of the high.  We are also taught that "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."

 

So in order to get to the highest degree, we must be sealed prior to the resurrection.  Being sealed means having the promise that if we live worthy that we will live with our Father in the Celestial Kingdom being able to have an increase throughout eternity.  This is one reason why we do work for the dead; to baptize and then to provide them the opportunity to be sealed.

 

If one is divorced here in this life (without a sealing), then in order to be sealed one would need to be re-married.  If those individuals who are divorced die, then at the present time there is no mechanism to actually seal them together.  The Church only seals those who are (or those who died as) legally and lawfully wedded.  

 

So what about single people who have never been married? We don't know, all we know is that the Lord is merciful and that somehow it will work out.  This might mean that during the millennium angles will come down and guide those on earth as to who should be sealed to who . . . but we don't know and we can't really speculate.  Does this mean that those who die divorced will have an opportunity to re-marry?  Who knows, it hasn't been revealed.  But we do know that the Lord is merciful and that when His great work is done, no one will be able to honestly say "that wasn't right".  

 

Me personally, I'd rather not have to just rely on faith that it will work out; I like having the knowledge that I am sealed and that as long as we strive to work together we will be sealed regardless of what may come.

[paulsifer42]

How quickly people on here decide someone has sinned is, interesting...

 

Chalking it up to "The Light of Christ" as a way to judge someone else when they do something we don't believe is right is also interesting.  All I'm saying is, I've never been on the inside of ANY divorce, let alone all of them, so I refuse to be so quick to decide that someone (if not both people) has sinned inside of all divorces.  Obviously, you can believe what you will, but I believe in the scripture: For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged:  and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

 

I do my best to assume that everyone is on the up-and-up and God will judge by the heart; I'd sure hate to get to the judgement bar and be told I didn't measure up because I didn't quiet listen to The Light of Christ, or didn't happen to notice an Old Testament passage that told me it was a bad idea to do X.

 

Again though, and I mean this honestly, believe what you will.

[yjacket]

How quickly people on here decide someone has sinned is, interesting...

 

Chalking it up to "The Light of Christ" as a way to judge someone else when they do something we don't believe is right is also interesting.  All I'm saying is, I've never been on the inside of ANY divorce, let alone all of them, so I refuse to be so quick to decide that someone (if not both people) has sinned inside of all divorces.  Obviously, you can believe what you will, but I believe in the scripture: For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged:  and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

 

I do my best to assume that everyone is on the up-and-up and God will judge by the heart; I'd sure hate to get to the judgement bar and be told I didn't measure up because I didn't quiet listen to The Light of Christ, or didn't happen to notice an Old Testament passage that told me it was a bad idea to do X.

 

Again though, and I mean this honestly, believe what you will.

Romans 3:23

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

 

If two people are living as Christ would live then they would not possibly divorce each other.  Not living as God would have us live is sin (i.e. disobeying God).

 

Some truths about maintaining a marriage are truths regardless of what religion one believes in.  Calling something a sin is vastly different than saying because one did x they are banished to hell forever.  This idea that one cannot call something a sin because well we might be judging someone is ridiculous.  

Please see https://www.lds.org/ensign/1999/08/judge-not-and-judging?lang=eng

 

The Light of Christ (i.e. our conscience) guides us in the big things. Do I sin in ways that I know not, absolutely.  I rely on the Atonement of Jesus Christ to make up for me in those instances when I sin and I know it not at the time.  It doesn't make it any less of a sin, b/c sin is disobedience to God.

 

So without the Atonement calling something a sin when someone may not know it might appear to be judgmental, holier than thou, etc.  But it isn't, it is a statement of fact.  Does God want divorce?  The simple answer is no.  Does He allow divorce in certain situations? Yes, however those situations are where serious sin has been committed.  Even where divorce occurs and there hasn't been serious sin, it is involved.  Saying that sin is the root of divorce, is simply recognizing that when it occurs a couple as not lived as God would have them live.

 

Regardless, though the Atonement of Jesus Christ those sins can be wiped away; the physical effects of the sin will linger but one can become clean.

[paulsifer42]

Romans 3:23

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

 

If two people are living as Christ would live then they would not possibly divorce each other.  Not living as God would have us live is sin (i.e. disobeying God).

 

Some truths about maintaining a marriage are truths regardless of what religion one believes in.  Calling something a sin is vastly different than saying because one did x they are banished to hell forever.  This idea that one cannot call something a sin because well we might be judging someone is ridiculous.  

Please see https://www.lds.org/ensign/1999/08/judge-not-and-judging?lang=eng

 

The Light of Christ (i.e. our conscience) guides us in the big things. Do I sin in ways that I know not, absolutely.  I rely on the Atonement of Jesus Christ to make up for me in those instances when I sin and I know it not at the time.  It doesn't make it any less of a sin, b/c sin is disobedience to God.

 

So without the Atonement calling something a sin when someone may not know it might appear to be judgmental, holier than thou, etc.  But it isn't, it is a statement of fact.  Does God want divorce?  The simple answer is no.  Does He allow divorce in certain situations? Yes, however those situations are where serious sin has been committed.  Even where divorce occurs and there hasn't been serious sin, it is involved.  Saying that sin is the root of divorce, is simply recognizing that when it occurs a couple as not lived as God would have them live.

 

Regardless, though the Atonement of Jesus Christ those sins can be wiped away; the physical effects of the sin will linger but one can become clean.

 

From your own article:

 

Third, to be righteous, an intermediate judgment must be within our stewardship. We should not presume to exercise and act upon judgments that are outside our personal responsibilities. Some time ago I attended an adult Sunday School class in a small town in Utah. The subject was the sacrament, and the class was being taught by the bishop. During class discussion a member asked, “What if you see an unworthy person partaking of the sacrament? What do you do?” The bishop answered, “You do nothing. I may need to do something.” That wise answer illustrates my point about stewardship in judging.

Fourth, we should, if possible, refrain from judging until we have adequate knowledge of the facts. In an essay titled “Sitting in the Seat of Judgment,” the great essayist William George Jordan reminded us that character cannot be judged as dress goods—by viewing a sample yard to represent a whole bolt of cloth (see The Crown of Individuality [1909], 101–5).

In the case of these hypothetical people, neither are in my stewardship and I do not have adequate knowledge.  I have no idea if some kind of sin lead to their divorce.

[yjacket]

In the case of these hypothetical people, neither are in my stewardship and I do not have adequate knowledge.  I have no idea if some kind of sin lead to their divorce.

 

If someone is committing adultery, we have no need to say well they aren't in my stewardship and I do not have adequate knowledge to decide so I best not judge, no we say it is a sin!

 

Simple question, is divorce ordained of God?  If it is than we can say there is no sin, if it is not they we may conclude that sin drives it.  If we say God allows it, then we can still conclude that there is sin involved.

 

The Scriptures are again pretty clear on this subject:

Matthew 5:31-32 & Mark 10:2-12

 

 31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

 32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

 2 ¶And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.

 3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?

 4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.

 5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.

 6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

 7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

 8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

 9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

 10 And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter.

 11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

 12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

 

Kick against the pricks on the scriptures, but they plainly teach, divorce is not ordained of God and those in those causes where divorce is justified, serious sin has been committed.  In cases where divorce is not justified, serious sin is committed in breaking the marriage covenant.

Edited October 7, 2014 by yjacket

[paulsifer42]

If someone is committing adultery, we have no need to say well they aren't in my stewardship and I do not have adequate knowledge to decide so I best not judge, no we say it is a sin!

 

Simple question, is divorce ordained of God?  If it is than we can say there is no sin, if it is not they we may conclude that sin drives it.  If we say God allows it, then we can still conclude that there is sin involved.

 

The Scriptures are again pretty clear on this subject:

Matthew 5:31-32 & Mark 10:2-12

 

 31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

 32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

 2 ¶And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.

 3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?

 4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.

 5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.

 6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

 7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

 8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

 9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

 10 And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter.

 11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

 12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

 

Kick against the pricks on the scriptures, but they plainly teach, divorce is not ordained of God and those in those causes where divorce is justified, serious sin has been committed.  In cases where divorce is not justified, serious sin is committed in breaking the marriage covenant.

 

This is what Dallin H. Oaks said about it:

The kind of marriage required for exaltation—eternal in duration and godlike in quality—does not contemplate divorce. In the temples of the Lord, couples are married for all eternity. But some marriages do not progress toward that ideal. Because “of the hardness of [our] hearts,” the Lord does not currently enforce the consequences of the celestial standard. He permits divorced persons to marry again without the stain of immorality specified in the higher law. Unless a divorced member has committed serious transgressions, he or she can become eligible for a temple recommend under the same worthiness standards that apply to other members.

 

God does not hold us to a higher law than we can live, and, apparently, that is where we are at this point.  It is not my place to say if someone is breaking God's law, because (as I've said before) I don't know what law God is holding them to.  Obviously, as Oak's talk states, we aren't held to that higher law at this point, therefore, no serious sin has been committed (as you state), or else people would be called to repentance by their bishops after a divorce.  

 

In all cases, I do not have all the information, and as I am not a steward over them, I have no means (or need) for gathering such information.  Do I think God loves for people to marry and then decide that their marriage is no longer working?  No, but I also don't think it's my place to say whether those people have sinned or not.