Am I Justified to Leave for Lack of Love?


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The simple question is if I do not have my sexual needs fulfilled after a sustained period in my marriage then am I justified to leave my wife? This is of course after trying theraphy, "doing more around the house" and such.

 

Esspecially since after a while of no romantic contact you start having bad thoughts to divert attention to someone outside your spouse.

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The simple question is if I do not have my sexual needs fulfilled after a sustained period in my marriage then am I justified to leave my wife? This is of course after trying theraphy, "doing more around the house" and such.

 

Esspecially since after a while of no romantic contact you start having bad thoughts to divert attention to someone outside your spouse.

Your "bad thoughts" are your choice and responsibility. You cannot shift the blame of your own thoughts or actions to someone else. They are solely YOUR choice responsibility no matter what the circumstances are. If you choose to have those thoughts or choose to act on those thoughts, you are the only one to blame, you cannot shift that blame to someone else. Infidelity is never justified.

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I don't know the answer to this one. I do know that the Lord's standard for justifying divorce is pretty high. Adultery/infidelity, and abuse are about all that readily come to my mind -- and, even then, divorce is not to be a "knee jerk" reaction to the situation.

 

Some have argued that sexual refusal is a form of infidelity -- a violation of the marriage covenant (here's one article by Dr. Lundberg, an LDS author and marriage therapist: http://familyshare.com/10-ways-you-are-being-unfaithful-to-your-spouse-and-you-dont-even-know-it see point #8), but does it really justify divorce? I don't think I can speak for you. I feel like God has called me to stay and endure for now, that is all I know for sure.

 

Is your wife aware of your "adulterous thoughts" and that you are considering divorce? I realize I am preaching to a "choir boy" here, but part of me (if I had the courage to do it) would want to ask her why she would see divorce/separation as preferable to "awakening her sexuality" (to borrow a phrase from Sister Brotherson) and work with you to build a more solid marriage?

 

Have you seen any of Michelle Weiner-Davis's stuff? She tends to be real marriage positive/divorce negative (what do you expect from someone who authored "Divorce Busting"), and she also seems to understand how sex plays a significant role in divorce (from her companion books "The Sex Starved Marriage" and "The Sex Starved Wife"). She's not LDS (I'm not even sure she is religious), but some of her ideas may be helpful.

 

Whatever direction your trial takes you, I hope God leads you.

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No, you're not justified and as Leah said your thoughts are your own responsibility.  You mentioned therapy but was it for you to voice your frustration or to understand where your wife may be coming from?  Huge difference!  There are all sorts of reasons a spouse may be uninterested in physical intimacy:

 - past trauma (molested/raped),

 - physical pain,

 - unsatisfied/unfulfilled sexually (so why bother),

 - tired,

 - depressed,

 - doesn't feel attractive,

 - been offended (porn...),

 - personality (some are more interested in sex than others - check library for 'Life Colors' by Pamala Oslie),

 - etc.

Until the root cause is acknowledged/addressed, "a sustained period" doesn't matter.  

 

Two questions to consider:

~if she were in an accident that rendered her unable to be intimate, would you feel ok leaving her?

~how would you feel if it was your wife wondering about leaving you because you haven't met her timeline or expectations?

Edited by notquiteperfect
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The question in the Title can not be answered here.

 

You claimed as a User Name ActiveLDSDadandFather so I am going to make certain assumptions about what you should understand about marriage...  I will even assume you are Sealed (Although that is not necessary true, the advice holds either way)

 

God is a fan of marriages and being married.  He does not want marriages to be broken at all.  But he understands that sometimes it is necessary due to the choices the people make, therefore divorce is an option he allows.

 

Your question is 'are you Justified in divorcing your Wife'  The only one you need to Justify divorcing to is God.  The only one whose opinion matters on your divorcing of your wife is God.

 

Therefore the correct answer is to get on your knees and ask him.  No one else's opinion really matter.

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The simple question is if I do not have my sexual needs fulfilled after a sustained period in my marriage then am I justified to leave my wife? This is of course after trying theraphy, "doing more around the house" and such.

 

Esspecially since after a while of no romantic contact you start having bad thoughts to divert attention to someone outside your spouse.

You are going to get a different answer from me than from other people on the board. I am going to make some assumptions.

 

1. You have actively tried to be a better husband aka you are nice to her you tell her she is pretty, you tell her what a wonderful wife she is, how great of a mother she is etc.

2. You and your wife have gone to therapy both together and separately, (sexual issues were discussed)

3. Sustained period means infrequent coitus, less than once a month (to me)

4. You are not a selfish pig in the bedroom and truly desire her pleasure.

5. You are not a troll/ haven't let yourself go physically 

6. Your not addicted to porn....yes this is a turn off for women

 

I wouldn't worry so much about the bad thoughts, and I definitely wouldn't tell your wife about them. What would the point of that be? to create more hard feelings? I would say that you need to control those thoughts, that you need to put them aside. Hey your a guy I get it...sex is infrequent and the mind wanders it's normal, but lock it up, shut it down.

 

If you have done all of this and then tried ten times harder to make it work and your wife won't come around then yes get divorced. 

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We need to hear a response from the OP to further the discussion.  Omega has valid points.  If OP can clarify exactly what has happened in this relationship then we can have a better starting point for discussion rather than pure speculation.  

 

Was there sex, but now there is not?  Define infrequent?  What is the root cause?  Is there in fact no sex, and no love?  Men tend to put sex and love into one huge ball, but women see it differently.  His wife may in fact love him, and demonstrate that love every day, but men don't disconnect love from sex.  

 

If OP is truly a great guy, and has given everything to the marriage then he may be justified, but we can only guess at this point.

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The Rundown

Yes I am active, with Temple Recommend, calling, RM, senstive, flowers, compliments, good job, successful, fit good looking guy--not a troll, educated, and well read.

 

"Bad thoughts" clarification

So to clarify I do not sit around imagining having sex with other women with "adulterous thoughts." It's more like "Whoa she is super attractive and has a lot of admirable qualities." aka wondering if she would be a better wife then my current one. I know I'm accountable for my thoughts that did not even anwser the question originially asked. I have never even considered approaching a woman and have no desire to do so.

 

Do you have children?

Yes. We have 1 child (20 months) with 1 on the way. I love our child so much it is what keeps us a 'family'.

 

Would you leave your wife if she were in an accident where she could not be intimate?

No. That is a hypothetical question and since that is not my situation I do not need to consider it. Besides is this one of those question that people just ask to catch you in a snare? I mean how many people have accident where they can't have sex anymore?

 

How would I feel if my wife where to leave me because I didn't meet her expectations or timeline?

Well if she had told me a million times after years then good! She should leave me. I show no signs of changing my behavior and ultimately husbands can be upgraded. Good for her--she deserves someone else that makes her happy.

 

Additional Information

I do not like to admit it but I think my wife just looks at me like a safe life. I give her children which she loves because she is so happy with our daughter and now another along the way. I provide so she can stay at home. We don't struggle financially. She is smooth sailing. She does not have a history of sexual abuse and does not have any unprocessed trauma from what I know of--except some self esteem issues that stem from her relationship with her father--which would give her sexual anxiety.

 

We have a high functioning partnership as I look at it. She and I work well together as a team dividing labor, childcare and housework. There are compliments, hugs, kisses, backrubs and snuggling but when the time comes to "let the magic happen" I'm left playing "52 Card Pickup". Sex total for last year--yes I counted--was 3 times the third of which concieved our unborn baby. I felt "sperm jacked". I flat out tell her "I need sex." She responds I understand or later. Three times in one year so I can't say it never happens huh? She says she is either too busy, tired or not interested. I'm still in my 20's an have a lot of life a head of me and I'm asking myself "Is this what I want for 50 years?"

 

Celestial sabatoge

I know the reserach and stats on how children do after a divorce--it's terrible. However my heart is broke. If my wife were to ask me right now, "Would you want to be with me forever." ---NO! Would that surprise her?...Maybe I dunno what do you expect you neglected me for our entire marriage. As Elder Oaks said, "There is life after divorce." And I know many happy people who have been divorced. Overall I feel I could explain why I would divorce my wife to my HF. And I want to, however I think she's thinks I would never do it. I probably will not divorce her because we have children, but as soons as the children are grown I'm gone. And no amount of "I'm sorries" is going to recompense for 20 years of abuse. Because I deserve better than that.

 

It just seems somewhat sinister to plan it all out 20 years in advance huh?

Edited by ActiveLDSDadandFather
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Not to get too nosy, but . . . you didn't answer the porn question.  And that has HUGE bearing on this discussion.

 

There are compliments, hugs, kisses, backrubs and snuggling . . .

 

Sounds like love to me. 

 

. . . is going to recompense for 20 years of abuse.

 

Man, I love you as a brother in the Gospel; but stop this.  Living without sex is not "abuse".  She's not trying to hurt you; she's just not interested. 

 

It just seems somewhat sinister to plan it all out 20 years in advance huh?

 

If you're not committed to the marriage and you're planning to leave once the kids are out, IMHO you should do her the respect of openly telling her that now.  It's wrong to string her along for twenty years when you've been planning to leave the whole time.  Moreover, if the both of you know that your marriage will be ending in 20 years, there are practical and legal steps you can take now that might keep both of you on a more stable financial footing when the separation finally comes.

 

But--while I respect what you're going through--I don't think leaving is appropriate.  You have what you described as a "high functioning partnership", including (apparently) emotional and a limited degree of physical affection, with a fundamentally good woman who happens to be the mother of your child(ren).  The sole reason for dissolving your partnership is that you want sex--sex that you wouldn't be getting if you were single, either.

 

To quote Brigham Young:

 

[You] took her for better or for worse, and had no right to ill use her, and if she [soiled herself--Young actually uses a scatological term that would get me banned for repeating here] in the bed and laid in it until noon; [you] must bare it.
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Celestial sabatoge

I know the reserach and stats on how children do after a divorce--it's terrible. However my heart is broke. If my wife were to ask me right now, "Would you want to be with me forever." ---NO! Would that surprise her?...Maybe I dunno what do you expect you neglected me for our entire marriage. As Elder Oaks said, "There is life after divorce." And I know many happy people who have been divorced. Overall I feel I could explain why I would divorce my wife to my HF. And I want to, however I think she's thinks I would never do it. I probably will not divorce her because we have children, but as soons as the children are grown I'm gone. And no amount of "I'm sorries" is going to recompense for 20 years of abuse. Because I deserve better than that.

 

It just seems somewhat sinister to plan it all out 20 years in advance huh?

 

sorry to say but you need to visit the man room and learn how to seduce your woman into giving you what you need. Sex is not a bad thing and for a married couple it is healthy and approved by HF. Go read a book about how to make your wife want you because obviously by the looks of your avatar she wears the pants in your relationship.

Edited by priesthoodpower
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Have you told her your plan?  What did she say?  If there truly is no other reason why she cannot be intimate with you, then you have reasonable grounds.  

 

Be careful.  Her reasons may be legit, and you may be unwilling to recognize them.  

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I do not like to admit it but I think my wife just looks at me like a safe life. I give her children which she loves because she is so happy with our daughter and now another along the way. I provide so she can stay at home. We don't struggle financially. She is smooth sailing.
In therapy, did your counselor mention Ester Perell? I'm not entirely sure about the idea myself, but she speaks frequently about how desire and eroticism thrive when there is "mystery" and unkowns in a relationship, and tends to die in relationships where there is too much safety and security. If you have not been introduced to her works, you might look them up (I know she did a TED talk earlier this year, or maybe last year. There's also her book "Mating in Captiviy"). It might be worth exploring the question with your wife to see if you are too comfortable with each other and need to do something to spice up the relationship.

 

If you just need some commiseration, you might find the "involuntary celibacy" article on Laura Brotherson's blog. I have frequently felt like this words captured many of the sentiments in such a sexless marriage.

 

You indicated that you have been through therapy. Anything that you would care to share here that came out in therapy? Were biological/hormonal issues explored? Negative effects of a religious upbringing (aka good girl syndrome)? Is fatigue or chronic illness a factor? Did you discuss scheduling sex? Does she have difficulty enjoying sex or is sex uncomfortable?

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ActiveLDSDadandFather,

 

I echo what Just_A_Guy said and I have 6 words for you: grow up and be the man God wants you to be rather than wallowing in self-pity.

 

You have two children, whom God has entrusted you to raise in righteousness and love.  You have a wonderful wife and while there are problems no marriage is perfect; all marriages have issues to work through.

 

". I probably will not divorce her because we have children, but as soons as the children are grown I'm gone. And no amount of "I'm sorries" is going to recompense for 20 years of abuse. Because I deserve better than that."

 

What an absolutely short-sighted, selfish, way of looking at life.  You have absolutely no clue what will happen in 20 years. Not loving your children's mother will do so much harm to them.  Children are extremely perceptive and if you do not love your wife, I guarantee they will notice.  You will run the risk of creating massive self-esteem problems in your children.  When a child sees a father not love their mother, they instinctively begin to wonder if some part of them is not lovable.  A child understands they are from both mother and father.  When a Father does not love the mother, they can come to understand that a part of them is not lovable.   

 

You deserve better than that?  Nope we don't deserve squat in this life, we all sin tremendously, we all disobey our Father and cause problems ever single day of our life.  We don't "deserve" the air we breath, when compared to the greatness of God man is nothing.  Yet here we are, ever day God grants us another breath to live another chance to start fresh.  He grants us through His mercy His Son who Atoned for us and our sins suffering more than we can possible imagine.  Do we "deserve" it, not a chance.  But His grace is sufficient.

 

Look man, crap happens in life, sometimes it is an extremely difficult marriage, sometimes it is death, sometimes it is sickness, sometimes it is the loss of a job.  Sometimes it is all of them.  Looking at life as "I don't deserve this" is an extremely poor attitude and will only lead to misery.  The thing to do is to do one's best to be humble and ask "What can I learn from this that will make me a better person."

 

"Would you leave your wife if she were in an accident where she could not be intimate?

No. That is a hypothetical question and since that is not my situation I do not need to consider it. Besides is this one of those question that people just ask to catch you in a snare? I mean how many people have accident where they can't have sex anymore?"

 

Things happen all the time in life, you are young; you think it is easy to "upgrade" your wife.  Right . . . go ahead be my guest, find out the hard way.  Let's see mid-20s, divorced with 2 kids to support.  And the perfect Ms. Right is going to say, hey let's get married; knowing full well that she will have to contend with your ex and that you will be paying child-support.  Nope, it ain't that easy.  You trade one set of problems for another set of problems.  In many, many cases of re-marriages the difference in making the next marriage better is that the individual who divorced did not repeat the same mistakes that contributed to the divorce and had they made those changes in the 1st marriage it would still be going.

 

I completely understand that what you are going through is a very serious problem and I won't pretend to understand the depths of misery that you might be going through.  In fact, the only beings who understands completely is God and Jesus Christ.  Cry under Him with all the power that you have that He will show you the way to become a better man that He will help your wife see your needs.

 

As you turn to Him and turn your life completely over to Him, He will help guide you in how you can improve your marriage. Prayer and fasting are mighty tools that work miracles.

 

I will give a few things of counsel.  IMO part of the solution to it isn't to run away from your spouse but to run towards her. Eliminate the outs, eliminate the thoughts of divorce.  You said she responds with an I understand or later, then you need to talk to her about it and just saying "I need it" isn't talking to her about it, explain to her why. It will take real communication and it is something that can be worked out. 

Edited by yjacket
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The simple question is if I do not have my sexual needs fulfilled after a sustained period in my marriage then am I justified to leave my wife? This is of course after trying theraphy, "doing more around the house" and such.

 

Esspecially since after a while of no romantic contact you start having bad thoughts to divert attention to someone outside your spouse.

No. Absolutely not. No, no, no.

Bridle your passions and try a different therapist.

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Bridle your passions and try a different therapist.

Sexual expression is a human behaviour that needs to be fufilled in a healthy mutual realtionship, just like how a human needs to eat food, drink water and breath air, sex is an important need. The answer is not to find a therapist that will have a better method on how to control his passions, the answer is for his wife to start putting out.

 

Find out why she aint putting out, is she a germaphobe? does she have a chemical imbalance? chances are there might be a medical reason to her sexual inactivity. Just like how some men might need viagra maybe she needs something of its equivilant.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

Sexual expression is a human behaviour that needs to be fufilled in a healthy mutual realtionship, just like how a human needs to eat food, drink water and breath air, sex is an important need. The answer is not to find a therapist that will have a better method on how to control his passions, the answer is for his wife to start putting out.

 

 

I disagree. The key here is finding out why his wife feels as she does about sex, a new therapist might be able to help with that.

 

"Putting out" is such an offensive term...and men wonder why their wives might be turned off.  Let me count the ways....

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Guest LiterateParakeet

ActiveLDS....,

 

You haven't told us why your wife feels as she does...which to me suggests you don't know.  Oh, yeah, you hinted that she is using you for children and money...but from your other comments here...I think there is a lot more going wrong in your marriage than just sex, or the lack there of.

 

Please consider trying counseling again.  Maybe a different therapist could be of more help.  Good marriages take work.  This is not Disney, and there really is no "happily ever after" without a lot of work.  But a great marriage is so worth the trouble.  Put in the work, and you will reap your reward.  

 

Divorce is not the answer...second marriages have higher divorce rates than first marriages.  You'll just be out of the frying pan and into the fire.  

Therapy...therapy...therapy...

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I don't think anyone here believes it to be good and right this is a sexless marriage. I agree with priesthoodpower to a degree: the wife needs to figure out what's wrong, fix it, and improve the marriage's sexuality. The husband can't do it alone. But as he's the only one here...

I'd encourage you to sit down and try to get your wife to talk about this. Be direct but polite: "Honey, I feel my needs aren't being met and the subject is being avoided. Your thoughts?"

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Sexual expression is a human behaviour that needs to be fufilled in a healthy mutual realtionship, just like how a human needs to eat food, drink water and breath air, sex is an important need. The answer is not to find a therapist that will have a better method on how to control his passions, the answer is for his wife to start putting out.

 

Find out why she aint putting out, is she a germaphobe? does she have a chemical imbalance? chances are there might be a medical reason to her sexual inactivity. Just like how some men might need viagra maybe she needs something of its equivilant.

 

I agree with your statements re the role of sex vis a vis a healthy relationship.  I further agree that there's a lot of incongruity between the typical response when a man is faced with a dissatisfied wife ("just man up and do what she wants!") versus when a woman is faced with a dissatisfied husband ("how dare anyone suggest you need to change your behavior just to satisfy that pig!"). 

 

On the other hand--it's not a level playing field.  Males have something their wives don't have--the priesthood--and that, I think, entails an obligation to put up with some things that females are not necessarily expected to put up with.  Brigham Young was very straightforward that a male doesn't get an "out" just because he thinks he's in an "unhealthy relationship". 

 

Enforced abstinence is never pleasant.  Sometimes it can be positively gut-wrenching.  On the other hand, if all attempts to remedy the situation fail--well, we were supposed to have learned to cope with that condition before we ever got married.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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The simple question is if I do not have my sexual needs fulfilled after a sustained period in my marriage then am I justified to leave my wife?

 

Sexual expression is a human behaviour that needs to be fufilled in a healthy mutual realtionship, just like how a human needs to eat food, drink water and breath air, sex is an important need.

 

I agree with your statements re the role of sex vis a vis a healthy relationship. 

 

I respectfully disagree.

 

Sex is simply ONE of the many expressions of love in a healthy relationship.  A perfectly clear example of this is when a man who loves his wife very much finds her wife in a medical situation where she cannot have sex.  A marriage founded on sex is like a house built on sand.  The marriage needs to be founded on the desire to express love.

 

Every person - man or woman - have different ways to express love.  Sex is merely one of them.  The strong impulse for sex is primarily built into mortality to bring spirits into mortality.  Some people have a strong impulse - with or without love - others have a strong impulse as an expression of love and others have a weak impulse even with the strong desire to express love.

 

What you need to do is separate the act of sex with the expression of love and work on bringing your marriage into a state where the strong desire to express love is present - in any way of expression it is found.  Then focus on that.  As it is, my husband's unquestioned ability to jump infront of a bullet to save me or to stand there in absolute patience to wait out my flying-plates-temper make me feel more loved than his sexual overtures.  If great sex becomes one of the expressions, great!  If not, still great!  You are loved.  But, if love is built on a condition of sex, then my friend, you don't have love.  You have lust - and that has no bearing on the health of your relationship.

Edited by anatess
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You make the case very well, Anatess.  I don't know that I agree--I suppose I'll leave that for the clinicians!--but in the context of the OP, I think there's a deeper issue of which the sex issue is merely a symptom.

 

Let's go back to your hypothetical of a couple where the wife is in a medical situation.  Let us say that she is also confined to a wheelchair.  Let us say that her husband tells her

 

"Honey, I love you and value our partnership.  But you must be aware that as you go about your life, I simply refuse to get things off the top shelf for you.  Oh, maybe two or three times a year; but in general--no.  I just don't feel like it--not in the mood.  And really, your being able to access the top shelf isn't a need, is it?  And if you disagree with this, you clearly have no respect for my autonomy or my feelings as a person."

 

Regardless of the role of sex in a relationship; I submit that prolonged willful dismissal of another partner's feelings and desires is not a sign of a healthy marriage.  In this regard--while I strongly disagree with any suggestion that the OP should abandon the relationship, and assuming that the OP has been completely faithful (including avoiding porn use)--I do think that the wife is not completely blameless in the marriage's troubles.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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ActiveLDS, I feel for you.  I don't really have advice for you, and I don't really know if leaving is 'justified', but I feel for you.  I do think talking with her about it is a good idea.  And, as has been stated, more than just 'I need it', it should be a discussion of, 'I love you.  I want to be with you.  Let's talk about how we can do that together.'  But, for all I know, you've had that discussion, but to no avail.  Here's praying things work out for you.

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