Question about Columbus...


Guest LiterateParakeet
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Guest LiterateParakeet

As you know, we have been taught that Columbus was inspired. This implies that Columbus was a man of God. So I am really troubled by something I read on another group.  The first quote said to be from Columus' journal, and the second is a letter from one of his men.  I haven't checked the sources myself, I don't know to whom the letter was written...but still very disturbing.  My best guess is that Heavenly Father sometimes uses   people (I don't mean that in a negative way) to fulfill His purposes.  Apparently Columbus considered himself a man of God as well...but his definition of such is sure different than mine.  I'm really troubled by this, what are your thoughts?  Here's the quote:

 

"They … brought us parrots and balls of cotton and spears and many other things, which they exchanged for the glass beads and hawks’ bells. They willingly traded everything they owned… . They were well-built, with good bodies and handsome features…. They do not bear arms, and do not know them, for I showed them a sword, they took it by the edge and cut themselves out of ignorance. They have no iron. Their spears are made of cane… . They would make fine servants…. With fifty men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want."

 

What is further maddening is the rape that happened under the watch of Christopher Columbus. One of his men and a childhood friend ofColumbus, Michele da Cuneo, describes in a letter how he raped a native woman:

"While I was in the boat, I captured a very beautiful Carib woman, whom the said Lord Admiral gave to me. When I had taken her to my cabin she was naked—as was their custom. I was filled with a desire to take my pleasure with her and attempted to satisfy my desire. She was unwilling, and so treated me with her nails that I wished I had never begun. But—to cut a long story short—I then took a piece of rope and whipped her soundly, and she let forth such incredible screams that you would not have believed your ears. Eventually we came to such terms, I assure you, that you would have thought that she had been brought up in a school for whores."

 

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I'm appalled.  But I also know that many writers embellish a lot of things to make their writing sparkle.  If the poor Carib woman had written her own account of this terrible crime, it might have disagreed with da Cuneo's account in some important ways.  But I'm still appalled. 

 

 

...for I showed them a sword, they took it by the edge and cut themselves out of ignorance...

 

 

Some people do that with Scripture, too.

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God inspires those who are willing to listen.  We are held responsible for those laws we know and have been taught. People also often make mistakes in outlook. 

 

Remember the story of the king, described previously as a man of god, who fell for wife of one of his subjects, bedded her, impregnated her, and then tried to hide, eventually taking steps to have her husband killed.  Even though he did these things, he was an ancestor of the Savior. His name was David.

 

We have to remember that Columbus and his men were products of their times.  Though by our standards his attitudes seem barbaric, when it comes to those thought of at the time as "lesser races" Columbus was likely one of the more progressive thinkers of his day.

 

He also didn't exactly have the pick of the crop when it came to crew.  During that time, most people who would crew ships were generally unwilling to sail out of sight of land.  An experimental voyage that most didn't think they would be able to come back from is unlikely to get many volunteers.  This means that there are two ways to get participants.  1. Pay them a lot.  or 2.  Coerce them.  Since Columbus went on a rather small budget, he went with the second choice.  Most of his crew were criminals who were offered freedom in exchange for going.  He had to put up with a lot of problematic behavior. If he didn't let them have a certain amount of latitude, they would simply mutiny, kill him and be entirely unrestrained.  

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Guest LiterateParakeet

PolarVortex, thanks good point.  I've heard that young men (particularly in locker rooms) sometimes exaggerate their experiences...perhaps that is the case here as well.

 

Kapikui,  thanks good point.  I had heard that about the criminals, but I forgot.  That does help a little.  

 

Thanks to both of you!

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I think it is textually possible that 1 Nephi 13 isn't talking about Columbus at all--though admittedly, that's the way Mormons have always read it.

Also, bear in mind that the fact that the Spirit works upon a man does not make that man righteous. Isaiah refers to the king of Assyria as a tool in God's hands (see Isaiah 10/2 Nephi 20, and note that the Assyrians were FAR more brutal than Columbus--he ISIS of ancient Mesopotamia) . John 11:49-51 is clear that the unrighteousness Caiaphas was inspired to give a true prophecy to the Sanhedrin.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

Just A Guy, I like that.  I mean both, first that perhaps we have been mistaken in thinking that Nephi was talking about Columbus, who knows?  And second that is very helpful about the King of Assyria.  

 

Thanks so much!

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I think you need to read more about Samson or, as I like to call him, "The biggest jerk in the world."

 

Samson:

 

1) Tried to rip off guests at a party at his place with an impossible riddle. The answer to which was, "A lion lying dead by the road, with bees nesting in its guts." When the riddle was turned on him and the people he tried to rip off won the score of fine suits that he was hoping to steal from them, he found their brothers and clubbed them to death, stole the corpses clothes, yelled out "Here's your stupid suits!" and gave them back.

 

2) Called his wife a cow and sold her when she gave up the answer to the riddle because she feared for her life. 

 

3) Slept with prostitutes.

 

4) Was a general jerk.

 

God can use anyone regardless of who they are as a person. That person just might not end up being happy if they are a jerk.

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I came to the conclusion years ago that the Lord can work in very specific ways with people of sorts. In fact, it is rather amazing how the spirit can still influence a person in one aspect of their life while they have rejected the spirit in other areas.

 

Further note that the Book of Mormon does not say that Columbus was a great man or in any way speak of his character. It says, "And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land" (1 Ne 13:12). Columbus in a letter to Ferdinand and Isabella tells of his efforts to sail to the Indies. He says, 

During this time I have studied all kinds of texts: cosmography, histories, chronicles, philosophy, and other disciplines. Through these writings, the hand of Our Lord opened my mind to the possibility of sailing to the Indies and gave me the will to attempt the voyage....

 

The Holy Spirit illuminated his holy and sacred Scripture, encouraging me in a very strong and clear voice from the forty-four books of the Old Testament, the four evangelists, and twenty-three epistles from the blessed apostles, urging me to proceed. Continually, without ceasing a moment, they insisted that I go on. Our Lord wished to make something clearly miraculous of this voyage to the Indies in order to encourage me and others about the holy temple. (The Book of Prophecies, p 68-69)

Again Columbus says:

I have already said that for the execution of the enterprise of the Indies, neither reason nor mathematics, nor world maps were profitable to me; rather the prophecy of Isaiah was completely fulfilled. And this is what I wish to report here for the consideration of your highnesses.” (Fols. 4,4 vs., 5 rvs.)

What LDS person can doubt that Columbus was guided by the spirit of the Lord to sail to the Americas? The hand of the Lord was in it. I marvel in what God is able to do, but I do not believe he was righteous in all his ways. However, I think it foolish to judge the man too harshly with our limited understanding and from a distance of 600 years in the future. 

 

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As you know, we have been taught that Columbus was inspired. This implies that Columbus was a man of God. So I am really troubled by something I read on another group.  The first quote said to be from Columus' journal, and the second is a letter from one of his men.  I haven't checked the sources myself, I don't know to whom the letter was written...but still very disturbing.  My best guess is that Heavenly Father sometimes uses   people (I don't mean that in a negative way) to fulfill His purposes.  Apparently Columbus considered himself a man of God as well...but his definition of such is sure different than mine.  I'm really troubled by this, what are your thoughts?  Here's the quote:

 

"They … brought us parrots and balls of cotton and spears and many other things, which they exchanged for the glass beads and hawks’ bells. They willingly traded everything they owned… . They were well-built, with good bodies and handsome features…. They do not bear arms, and do not know them, for I showed them a sword, they took it by the edge and cut themselves out of ignorance. They have no iron. Their spears are made of cane… . They would make fine servants…. With fifty men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want."

 

What is further maddening is the rape that happened under the watch of Christopher Columbus. One of his men and a childhood friend ofColumbus, Michele da Cuneo, describes in a letter how he raped a native woman:

"While I was in the boat, I captured a very beautiful Carib woman, whom the said Lord Admiral gave to me. When I had taken her to my cabin she was naked—as was their custom. I was filled with a desire to take my pleasure with her and attempted to satisfy my desire. She was unwilling, and so treated me with her nails that I wished I had never begun. But—to cut a long story short—I then took a piece of rope and whipped her soundly, and she let forth such incredible screams that you would not have believed your ears. Eventually we came to such terms, I assure you, that you would have thought that she had been brought up in a school for whores."

 

I wouldn't call him a man of God. was he inspired? yes. You only need to have one moment of inspiration to be inspired.

Did he do a lot for science and exploration in his day? yes

Was he instrumental for paving the way so that the gospel could be restored? yes

He was a very driven individual who was self taught, and the same could be said about his personal morality. (which when compared to a lot of european beliefs really wasn't far out of line of what was normal for the day. especially for seafarers.). he had some pretty low scruples in various facets of his life. He clashed a lot with his contemporaries.

His critics demonize him, and his fans make him a saint. both which are inaccurate.

most heroes have some ugly skeletons in the closet.

Are you having concerns about this from the seattle changing columbus da thingy that went down recently?

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Guest LiterateParakeet

Thanks everyone.  The perspective that Heavenly Father can inspire people--even sometimes wicked people--to do his will really helps.  I was having trouble reconciling my previous idea that Columbus was a righteous man, with his apparent eagerness to enslave the people that were being so kind to him.  But I can accept that he was not righteous, perhaps not evil either--I understand that it isn't fair to judge people from other eras by our current sensibilities.  And yet there were people like William Wilberforce that lived in that time period and fought slavery.  

 

Are you having concerns about this from the seattle changing columbus da thingy that went down recently?

 

You know I was trying to avoid the whole topic actually.  It seems to be some sort of sport for some to "dethrone" heroes from the past.  And I try to stay out of all that.  For example, in the book Lies My Teacher Told Me, it talks about Helen Keller and how she was a Socialist.  It was implied that this was something scandalous, as if that changed everything.

For me that doesn't change the way I think of Helen Keller at all.  She didn't have the gospel, and without it I might well be deceived into being a Socialist myself.  Especially if I were handicapped and living in the time period that she did.  I think the real news would be if she were NOT a Socialist.

 

So I just tried to ignore the stuff about Columbus....but then I saw that quote I shared above and I couldn't ignore that.  This conversation helped me "reframe" though.  

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50 years ago it was acceptable to spank children, and children would routinely get smacked in public. 100+ years ago it was acceptable to spank your wife.  Today if a mother grabs the child in the wrong way in public, they go to jail.  If a mother leaves a child in a car (something routinely done 30 years ago), the child is removed.

 

500+ years ago, slavery wasn't just acceptable it was in many ways considered benevolent.  When one country conquered another country, the conqueror had 2 options either kill everyone or put them in chains.  Slavery has existed for pretty much all of recorded history, except the last 150+ years.

 

Is what happened horrendous, absolutely, but I'm not going to castigate someone who lived over 500 years ago for doing what was considered pretty normal for the time period. For instance, even the native americans themselves practiced slavery.

 

This is actually something that frustrates me a lot; for all our knowledge and ability to access information, it seems like our current modern culture understands facts, but can't understand historical context.  Everything is judged in light of our current knowledge rather than understanding what was happening in the time period.

Edited by yjacket
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We know God can work through those who are not righteous. The Book of Mormon has prophets declaring to the wicked that if they do not repent that He will send the Laminates to slay them. There are a many scriptures that allude to or directly speak of this. We can write them off as not literal, or we can take it to mean what it seems to clearly teach. God uses all things, wicked and righteous, to bring about His purposes.

 

That being said, I'm not sure we can hold modern sensibilities of right and wrong over Columbus's head...nor can we fairly hold him morally accountable for every action that happened "under his watch".

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also keep in mind that the further you go back in history the harder it is to get straight up accurate fact, or the ability to get the whole picture.

I've also seen the tendency for numbers to get inflated over time.


Oh and slavery has not ended yet it's quite alive and well in the US of A, but at least it's usually on the illegal side of things. it's just swapped the mask it wears.

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Thanks everyone.  The perspective that Heavenly Father can inspire people--even sometimes wicked people--to do his will really helps.  I was having trouble reconciling my previous idea that Columbus was a righteous man, with his apparent eagerness to enslave the people that were being so kind to him.  But I can accept that he was not righteous, perhaps not evil either--I understand that it isn't fair to judge people from other eras by our current sensibilities.  And yet there were people like William Wilberforce that lived in that time period and fought slavery.  

 

 

You know I was trying to avoid the whole topic actually.  It seems to be some sort of sport for some to "dethrone" heroes from the past.  And I try to stay out of all that.  For example, in the book Lies My Teacher Told Me, it talks about Helen Keller and how she was a Socialist.  It was implied that this was something scandalous, as if that changed everything.

For me that doesn't change the way I think of Helen Keller at all.  She didn't have the gospel, and without it I might well be deceived into being a Socialist myself.  Especially if I were handicapped and living in the time period that she did.  I think the real news would be if she were NOT a Socialist.

 

So I just tried to ignore the stuff about Columbus....but then I saw that quote I shared above and I couldn't ignore that.  This conversation helped me "reframe" though.  

it is, which is one of the reasons i'd vote against what was being done were I in that locale, and on which ever council that considered those sort of things.  the reasons and manner behind a lot of these anti hero type deals keep me from supporting them. the problem with a lot of them is they tend to go too far in the opposite direction and end up doing the same thing that hero worship does, just at the other end of the spectrum.

I'm also somewhat pro-socialist, after a manner. I just recognise that until all people can be honest and open with each other it won't work out well. Just because somebody is outside of what we consider normal or good doesn't always make them evil by default.

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