I need help with some doctrinal understanding

siistipoika · October 20, 2014

This is my first post here, though I read this forum form time to time. I am having a difficult time either understanding or accepting some doctrine and was hoping someone might enlighten me on the subject. My problem is in regard to work for the dead, inheriting kingdoms, etc.

1) As I understand it, we do work for the dead and then while in spirit prison these spirits can repent, accept the gospel and accept the ordinances and covenants. However, there may be some who do not accept it and they go to other kingdoms. I feel as though in the Church, because we are trying to be positive or for other reasons, it is not discussed that some of these spirits may not accept our work and thus, may not receive exaltation.

2) As I understand it, everyone who will ever live on this earth will receive an equal and fair chance to receive the Gospel, whether in this life or the next. Most of the time we reference people who lived before Noah or those in the deepest parts of Africa or China who never hear of the the Gospel or even God for that matter and pass away. I wonder though, what about those I come in contact with, explain the Gospel or parts of it or explain why our Church is different and they say good story or interesting, but move on. I also wonder about those people who try to "corrupt" LDS people, namely those who try to get us to drink, smoke, have sex, etc., while they may not have a full understanding of what they are doing, a lot of the time they know that to us it is bad and disrespect our stance by continuing to pressure or ask us to do things contrary to our beliefs, even after we've explained why we believe the way we do.

3) Does it bother anyone that because we have the Gospel in its fulness and are trying to live a higher law at this time, that there are people who live according to lesser standards and do so their entire lives and then eventually in the spirit world they receieve a "get out of jail pass" by saying they believe at that time? I just feel like I am trying to live the Gospel well, struggling, feeling guilty over things that many "in the world" don't blink an eye at and even mock to an extent and those same people will receive the gospel without the veil after they have passed away and don't have to prove themselves for as long I guess.

I wonder why we teach about the other Kingdoms, when it doesn't seem like very many will go to these, except maybe members of the Church who are not valiant. I feel like even the worst of the worst will be exalted because of everyone receiving an equal and fair chance to accept the Gospel in the Spirit World How could someone reject the Gospel in the Spirit World with the veil lifted? It just seems like they have an easier road to exaltation, while those of us who have the Gospel in this life struggle to live as close to the Celestial laws as we can, continuing to fall short, but trying, while those without ths gospel don't go through those same problems. I know it sounds like I'm judgmental and maybe that is what I have to work on. This is why the parables of the Prodigal Son and Workers in the Vineyard have always kind of bothered me.

Anyway, please don't call me names or be rude as I am just trying to develop a testimony of these things, so I don't get kind of bitter when we have lessons about work for the dead.

Traveler · October 20, 2014

Sometimes I think that many (including LDS members) do not get the full picture of what is going on. Let me try to paint my thought on this. A basic tenet of religion is a “final judgment” as well as a G-d that loves and has compassion. Hold on to that thought. Now try to envision what may occur at a “final judgment”. In general I see myself and many others coming before G-d with full knowledge of everything involved with good and evil that cannot possibly be obtained between birth and death as a mortal. With this knowledge and understanding I see us all coming before G-d and those with any proclivity for good – greeting G-d drenched in tears begging for mercy on G-d’s compassion and for forgiveness for our sins.

G-d is also a just G-d and therefore that must be laws, principles and ordnances by which those that have sinned can be justly forgiven and justly obtain mercy. In order for there to be justice we all must have the same access to forgiveness and mercy. The scriptures clearly indicate that ordinances such as baptism are elements of divine law and doctrine. The LDS understanding is that all have such access and no one has advantage.

The problem is that many want to measure justice and mercy (access) based on the time between an individual’s birth and their death. This idea is without question flawed. The point that you need to consider is, the LDS doctrine, that our purpose and existence does not begin with our birth nor does it end with our death. That having come to complete knowledge of all necessary truth, we will have method and way to fulfill that which we desire most – more than any other possibility that could be. – That is indeed very good news!!!

Leah · October 20, 2014

The church most definitely talks about how - even though we do the work for the dead - there is no guarantee that everyone will accept it. I've heard that point made regularly in the wards I have been in.

siistipoika · October 20, 2014

Thank you for your reply. So, when you say you and many others begging, do you mean every spirit child of our Heavenly Father? If not, what about those without a proclivity for good? Do you equate G-d as Christ or the Father i.e. are we begging of the Father or Son?

I like how you equate mercy and access. Some questions I have though are: Why do we need the Church if everyone, whether in this part of life (mortality) or the next will get access to the required ordinances and covenants i.e. why am I trying so hard now to "choose the right"? What about those who have sinned and it is something against us (abuse, etc.)? We can forgive/forget/move on to the best of our ability, but the pain may never fully heal in this life, we may always be scarred; how will we ever fully heal? If those who have wronged us ever repent, will they need to apologize to us or try to make amends and admit what they did was wrong, similar to how we repent here on earth and do the best we can to make amends with the person we've offended? Also, if there is some horrible thing someone has done to another, will we be with them wherever we're all assigned after mortality in our big heavenly family? I can't see that being a comfortable eternity.

Thank you.

Dravin · October 20, 2014

With respect to #3: I think a fundamental hinge-pin in the thinking of people being able to 'enjoy' sin and then repent later only really holds up if one believes there aren't benefits to living the higher law in this life. If all benefits are deferred, sure then the idea that, "They get to live it up, or at least live it easier and then get access to the same pension plan. That's so not fair!*" floats. If one believes there are benefits to living the gospel today then they are missing out, and the Church most definitely teaches that there are benefits of living the gospel today, that puts some holes in the boat.

*You don't want fair. It isn't fair that Christ paid for your sins. If you could magically flip a switch so that everything was fair, make sure you're prepared to enjoy hell.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Dravin

notquiteperfect · October 20, 2014

I get where you're coming from and I can see how things *appear* the way you put them, but ---

- I don't think those that know the 10 commandments and break them anyway will get a "free pass" when they're introduced to even more laws in the spirit world.

- You don't see what regret some who are "living it up" are having/feeling or the consequences they face because of their choices.

- Which would you rather have? Peace in this life because of your knowledge of the Gospel or always wondering about even the basics (where did I come from, why am I here, where am I going)?

Anddenex · October 20, 2014

Thought #1 - Spirits Who May Not Accept

Church doctrine is clear and it is taught repetitively that some will not accept the gospel when taught.

I have noticed people, in connection with this doctrine, will not provide eternal judgments upon others with regard to love ones who have passed away and were not members. My grandmother for example was baptized by my mother. My grandmother may or may not accept, we understand this — however, it is all our hopes she does and we would like to focus on the account that she did.

Thought #2 - Contrast Between Two Types of People

The concept of accepting the gospel in the next life is more easily taught and understood when we teach an extreme. People are able to grasp the concept better when this principle/doctrine is taught using China, Amazon tribes, African tribes we know who have never experienced Christianity at all.

The doctrine still applies to those who we have taught, explained the gospel, and they still reject it. On my mission two General Authorities (Seventies) surely had a different take on this. One specified, if we were to finish all six discussions and the individual rejected the invitation to come unto Christ — we have condemned them should they die. The other specified, we have not condemned them and only God can make this judgement call. Only God knows when a person has been sufficiently taught, received witness, and rejected this witness. I agree with the latter teaching.

The only way I can see someone truly being condemned is if they understood, read, and received witness (sure witness) and then rejected it. We are informed that we will carry the same beliefs, appetites, and passions with us to either paradise or prison. If a person rejected a spiritual witness here (which we esteem as more powerful than seeing the Savior himself) then one could assume they would also reject it there.

The other concept, wonder, what is the difference when we have tried to persuade a fellow latter-day saint to do something they have felt to be wrong? They will feel the same way we feel when we have discovered something we persuaded people to believe to be true, and we were wrong.

Thought #3 - “Get out of jail pass”

To be honest, yes, I have contemplated this thought also and it doesn’t appear fair. What is the point of trying to be the best we can, when it appears average is good enough? We have members who are dishonest, avarice, and without compassion in their business practices; yet, some of these men are bishops, stake presidents, and work as temple patrons. What then is the difference between these latter-day saints and those who have decided to be in the world, and then will eventually be exalted?

What if these brothers and sisters were born “in the world” due to latter-day saints unwillingness to have children (or more children — those who could have more children but have chosen not to). Latter-day saint home are even declining in the number of children the average member has (while in college it was from 6 to 4).

What if they are “in the world” because we as latter-day saints are not willing to open our mouths? A lady I knew from the mission, lived across the street from members in her youth. She specified they were good friends and she babysitted their children. She always asked, “Why didn’t they teach me the gospel”? She then said, “Maybe because I wouldn’t have listened; however, WHY didn’t they try”?

What if one of these brothers and sisters who lived “in the world” was foreordained to live “in the world” due to God’s foreknowledge knowing that this individual would possibly clear a path or increase the likelihood of the gospel being taught in that society? What if God has already supplanted valiant sons/daughters in China who would lead, or be a ripple, to open the gospel to be taught in China, but died before it was — a seed?

Doctrine we need to keep in mind (Isaiah 55: 8-9), “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

This we do know, God is perfectly just and merciful and those who have merited exaltation will receive exaltation, and those who have not will not receive exaltation. All blessings, exaltation included, are predicated by divine laws. If I merit exaltation, then I will be less concerned with fairness and be glad and grateful for those who will be with me also.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Anddenex

The Folk Prophet · October 20, 2014

3) Does it bother anyone that because we have the Gospel in its fulness and are trying to live a higher law at this time, that there are people who live according to lesser standards and do so their entire lives and then eventually in the spirit world they receieve a "get out of jail pass" by saying they believe at that time? I just feel like I am trying to live the Gospel well, struggling, feeling guilty over things that many "in the world" don't blink an eye at and even mock to an extent and those same people will receive the gospel without the veil after they have passed away and don't have to prove themselves for as long I guess.

Why would this bother you? The only possible reason would be because you don't really believe that God will be fair and just. Do you? If you believe God will be fair and just, then believe it! Stop worrying about what others are doing and worry about yourself and your own standing with God.

Or are you looking for an excuse to sin? Hopefully not that. But really, what do other's sins have to do with our salvation, unless we're comparing ourselves and regretting the fact that we aren't allowed to sin.

No one will be held guiltless who is guilty. Those who turn their noses up at righteousness will regret it. We don't judge, because we don't know -- it's between them and God. But in principle, we do know, because the scriptures are very clear on it. The reason we use deepest Africa or China as examples is because of the likelihood that they have never heard of the gospel of Christ. Those who have heard it and reject it will be accountable.

That being said -- take a look at this mortal life as an example. Let's say someone found the gospel at an older age. Let's say they even had knowledge of the gospel their whole lives, but they ignored it because they wanted to indulge in other things, but then had some sort of moving experience that brought them into the fold and they became faithful and true members the rest of their lives. Now another who was raised in the gospel will be that much further along in their gospel knowlege, their relationship with Christ, their understanding, their influence on family and friends, their opportunities for service, etc., etc. But would it be in any regard valid to deny the first the gospel because of this? "No...you can't be baptized because you spent the first half of your life golfing, drinking, and sleeping around!"

Really?

So how is it different after this life?

I wonder why we teach about the other Kingdoms, when it doesn't seem like very many will go to these...

Where'd you get the idea that not very many will go to the other kingdoms? My understanding is and always has been that those who truly accept Christ will be in the minority.

I feel like even the worst of the worst will be exalted

Can you support this with anything but your own thoughts? Any scriptures that teach this? Prophetic talks? Etc?

Frankly though, if the worst of the worst could, indeed, turn their lives around, accept Christ, and repent of what they have done, then HALLELUJAH!! What greater cause for joy could there be than that?!! How selfish of us to regret this potential.

How could someone reject the Gospel in the Spirit World with the veil lifted?

Your understanding of things is askew here. We have the veil in order to be tested. That veil remains in spirit prison (where those who have not accepted the gospel will be). It would make no sense for the veil to be lifted prior to our choosing to accept Christ or not. That is not the test and not how it will work.

When we stand before Christ on that day, and the veil is removed, and we remember all, it will be too late. That time of probation is past. The scriptures are also quite clear on this.

Really, you need to stop applying your mortal perspective to the justice of God. We simply do not have the perspective. God does. So trust Him. And meanwhile, you know the law. So keep it. Else wise you will be accountable.

Edited October 20, 2014 by The Folk Prophet

October 20, 2014

I wouldn't trade the joy, peace, and blessings I receive on a daily basis with the gospel in my life for any kind of "eat, drink, and be merry" lifestyle. I know people who live that live. I love people who have chosen that life. I just don't think they're that happy.

The Folk Prophet · October 20, 2014

Here's another thought to ponder:

Have you ever committed a sin that you know someone else has never committed? After having fully repented of said sin, would you have it so that you can never have what that other person has because they never committed the sin.

I'll use myself as an example. As a child (and I don't mean under 8...I mean young teenager years) I stole money from my siblings piggy banks. My older sister never did this (and I know she did not). Having fully repented of this, I can stand with my Sister in all regards equal to her. I can serve in the church, have blessings from the Lord, and be saved and exalted, just as she can. This is the miracle of the Atonement. This is the miracle of repentance. My sins are washed clean as if they never existed.

Without the Atonement, full justice would reign. That would mean that because of my sins, I could never have the same as my sister had, having done what she did not.

Is this the way you would prefer things?

Of course not.

As pointed out -- it isn't fair. None of us will deserve salvation. NONE OF US. We are saved only though His grace and mercy.

But...He has also established the path which upon we must tread to qualify for that mercy. His path and His way are repentance, baptism, and pressing forward with steadfastness (which I take to mean obedience and continued repentance when we falter). All all must tread that path, no matter when they enter it.

Jane_Doe · October 21, 2014

Hi siistipoika and welcome to the site. No need to feel ashamed of having questions, we all do. The purpose of this forum is so that we can all learn and grow together-- so welcome!!

Now on to your questions (pardon my abbreviating)

1) As I understand it, we do work for the dead and then while in spirit prison these spirits can repent, accept the gospel and accept the ordinances and covenants. However, there may be some who do not accept it and they go to other kingdoms....

It is true that some people will not accept the ordinances done on their behalf. If they were forced to accept them then it would thawt the entire plan of happiness. Do we as a people try to be super optimistic and think that everyone will? Heck yeah, you always want to hope! The scriptures do talk frequently about lower kingdoms and those whom won't live in the presence of God (I recommend Alma 40).

2) As I understand it, everyone who will ever live on this earth will receive an equal and fair chance to receive the Gospel, whether in this life or the next. ... I wonder though, what about those I come in contact with, explain the Gospel or parts of it or explain why our Church is different and they say good story or interesting, but move on...

A man can only be judge according to the truth he has received. Someone in middle-of-nowhere-China who lives the best as he knows (with very limited knowledge) will be judged well: did he honor his parents? Did we be truthful to his word? Did he care for his fellow man? He will be judged on what he knows to do.

If an LDS person knows a lot and throws it away, then they will be judged harshly. If some random American sees an "I'm a Mormon" billboard, that doesn't necessarily mean they've seen the whole truth, and hence can't be judge by it. Hebrews 10 is a great chapter about this.

2) .... I also wonder about those people who try to "corrupt" LDS people, namely those who try to get us to drink, smoke, have sex, etc...

The imagery in the "Tree of Life" vision is powerful. Yes, there are many people in the Great and Spacious Building mocking all day long. Some of them ended up there very on in life (not knowing the full truth), while some people partook of the Fruit and then left for the Great and Spacious Building (apostatized). I won't lump them all together. Rather the Lord judges each one of these people individually, based the knowledge and truth they have received.

3) Does it bother anyone that because we have the Gospel in its fulness and are trying to live a higher law at this time, that there are people who live according to lesser standards and do so their entire lives and then eventually in the spirit world they receieve a "get out of jail pass" by saying they believe at that time?...

It is never easy to be a good person!

Knowing more about how to take care yourself spiritually is like knowing more about taking care of yourself physically. Today we know so much more about nutrition, exercise, disease, etc. This knowledge is a great tool, and helps me live a healthy life. But just having the knowledge is not enough, I still have to *use* the knowledge I have: to eat right, get exercise, sanitize the best I know. It's just like my grandmother did and my granddaughter will do. That effort doesn't change.

A person whom doesn't know anything about the gospel still has to work to be the best person they know how. Just the same as you and me. And when the next life comes, all of us will have our minds blown away with how little we really knew.

3) ... I just feel like I am trying to live the Gospel well, struggling, feeling guilty over things that many "in the world" don't blink an eye at and even mock to an extent and those same people will receive the gospel without the veil after they have passed away and don't have to prove themselves for as long I guess.

I have two things to say--

1) God's wishes aren't just hoops for a us to hump through: they're tools to help us live a better life. By obeying God's commandments (like resting on the Sabbath) I enjoy my life more then if I didn't (benefit for me now).

2) If people are being trolls then just ignore them.

[really long question]

Ok, take a deep breath. Done? Now take another deep breath. Know that your Father in Heaven loves you. Know that He sent His son to die for you. God wants you to be the happiest you could possibly be, both now and in eternity.

Does any of that help?

ztodd · October 21, 2014

If you think people will really get a "free pass", that they can go about sinning their whole lives, and then all they have to do in the spirit world is confess a belief in Christ and all is magically forgiven, you don't quite have the full picture. Repentance is and will be required for all of us. Remember also that repentance is quite a bit easier to do in this life with many things- you won't want to procrastinate it until the spirit world.

We are judged by our works- no question. Not by our works alone, but the book of Revelation teaches very clearly that the books will be opened and we judged out of them, for all that we did in this life. The thing is- we are all on different planes of accountability. We all have different strengths and weaknesses. Different experience and knowledge. You don't know- you can't know- what someone else is going through- how hard it is for that person to keep certain commandments that you have been able to keep. No doubt it's hard for you to obey certain commandments- and when we fail to keep some commandments, that's when we so very grateful for the grace of Jesus Christ, for the gift of repentance!

You will learn as you grow and progress that you are becoming a better person each time you make a right choice for the right reason. You are becoming something great. Doing the right things for the right reasons is key. That key can be the difference between being a sad, bitter commandment keeper, and a happy, joyful commandment keeper. :) Another key to that will be letting Christ fully come in to your life, to purify your soul, to change your heart and mind. Pray for it- and you'll be blessed with it.

Consider the brother of the prodigal's son, who was told by his father that "Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine."

The Folk Prophet · October 21, 2014

Remember also that repentance is quite a bit easier to do in this life with many things- you won't want to procrastinate it until the spirit world.

There's a mistake in this thinking. He/She who consciously procrastinates the day of his/her repentance will not be able to after this life. This life is the time to prepare. The only who will be given the opportunity to "repent" after this life are those who did not have the opportunity to do so in this life.

Blackmarch · October 21, 2014

This is my first post here, though I read this forum form time to time. I am having a difficult time either understanding or accepting some doctrine and was hoping someone might enlighten me on the subject. My problem is in regard to work for the dead, inheriting kingdoms, etc.

1) As I understand it, we do work for the dead and then while in spirit prison these spirits can repent, accept the gospel and accept the ordinances and covenants. However, there may be some who do not accept it and they go to other kingdoms. I feel as though in the Church, because we are trying to be positive or for other reasons, it is not discussed that some of these spirits may not accept our work and thus, may not receive exaltation.

2) As I understand it, everyone who will ever live on this earth will receive an equal and fair chance to receive the Gospel, whether in this life or the next. Most of the time we reference people who lived before Noah or those in the deepest parts of Africa or China who never hear of the the Gospel or even God for that matter and pass away. I wonder though, what about those I come in contact with, explain the Gospel or parts of it or explain why our Church is different and they say good story or interesting, but move on. I also wonder about those people who try to "corrupt" LDS people, namely those who try to get us to drink, smoke, have sex, etc., while they may not have a full understanding of what they are doing, a lot of the time they know that to us it is bad and disrespect our stance by continuing to pressure or ask us to do things contrary to our beliefs, even after we've explained why we believe the way we do.

3) Does it bother anyone that because we have the Gospel in its fulness and are trying to live a higher law at this time, that there are people who live according to lesser standards and do so their entire lives and then eventually in the spirit world they receieve a "get out of jail pass" by saying they believe at that time? I just feel like I am trying to live the Gospel well, struggling, feeling guilty over things that many "in the world" don't blink an eye at and even mock to an extent and those same people will receive the gospel without the veil after they have passed away and don't have to prove themselves for as long I guess.

I wonder why we teach about the other Kingdoms, when it doesn't seem like very many will go to these, except maybe members of the Church who are not valiant. I feel like even the worst of the worst will be exalted because of everyone receiving an equal and fair chance to accept the Gospel in the Spirit World How could someone reject the Gospel in the Spirit World with the veil lifted? It just seems like they have an easier road to exaltation, while those of us who have the Gospel in this life struggle to live as close to the Celestial laws as we can, continuing to fall short, but trying, while those without ths gospel don't go through those same problems. I know it sounds like I'm judgmental and maybe that is what I have to work on. This is why the parables of the Prodigal Son and Workers in the Vineyard have always kind of bothered me.

Anyway, please don't call me names or be rude as I am just trying to develop a testimony of these things, so I don't get kind of bitter when we have lessons about work for the dead.

no because it will be a more difficult choice for them - it's quite one thing to say "I do" and then quite another to live that "I do" from moment to moment for the rest of eternity. such people you are mentioning here will have to pretty much unlearn much of their life and overcome all their bad habits without having the stumbling blocks, the painful moments, all the things that help us be humble and choose god in this life. that is a difficult path.

October 21, 2014

Everyone has made great points above to answer your question. I'm going to give my 2 cents not as an answer to your question but as an observation of the sentiment behind the entire post.

From reading your entire OP, it seems like it is centered on the "fairness" question. It is just like that parable that Jesus gave about the workers in the vineyard... some showed up at the break of dawn, others at noon, while others showed up at twilight and all of them got the exact same pay. So the workers who came at dawn grumbled about the unfairness of it all and demanded more pay. The master rebuked them saying that their covenant with the master is for them to labor and have pay - they knew this when they started working and accepted the terms.

The grumbling in the vineyard is caused by envy - something that we are taught to overcome.

The entire commandment of Christ is summed up in the 2 great commandments - to Love God with all our hearts, and to Love Others as we love ourselves.

In fulfilling the 2nd ommandment, we should desire that every human being ever born on earth receive the fullness of joy... that is what Love means. It shouldn't matter that they yukked it up in mortality, kicked dogs, and scared children... wishing them eternal punishment is not Loving them. Wishing them the highest of Celestial glory even if it means they repent at the last possible second of twilight is Loving them.

Make sense?

mordorbund · October 21, 2014

There's a mistake in this thinking. He/She who consciously procrastinates the day of his/her repentance will not be able to after this life. This life is the time to prepare. The only who will be given the opportunity to "repent" after this life are those who did not have the opportunity to do so in this life.

When the missionary forces in the spirit world were first organized, it was expressly to teach the "disobedient ... in the days of Noah". Do you hold that the lowlifes destroyed in the flood did not have the opportunity to repent?

The Folk Prophet · October 21, 2014

When the missionary forces in the spirit world were first organized, it was expressly to teach the "disobedient ... in the days of Noah". Do you hold that the lowlifes destroyed in the flood did not have the opportunity to repent?

I hold no opinion on who had the opportunity/knowledge to repent. I only hold the opinion that if they did have such opportunity and knowledge and ignored it, then the time they had was past.

I'd quote BOM sources in support, but I assume you're quite familiar with the teaching of Alma and Amulek on the matter.

applepansy · October 21, 2014

This is my first post here, though I read this forum form time to time. I am having a difficult time either understanding or accepting some doctrine and was hoping someone might enlighten me on the subject. My problem is in regard to work for the dead, inheriting kingdoms, etc.

1) As I understand it, we do work for the dead and then while in spirit prison these spirits can repent, accept the gospel and accept the ordinances and covenants. However, there may be some who do not accept it and they go to other kingdoms. I feel as though in the Church, because we are trying to be positive or for other reasons, it is not discussed that some of these spirits may not accept our work and thus, may not receive exaltation.

2) As I understand it, everyone who will ever live on this earth will receive an equal and fair chance to receive the Gospel, whether in this life or the next. Most of the time we reference people who lived before Noah or those in the deepest parts of Africa or China who never hear of the the Gospel or even God for that matter and pass away. I wonder though, what about those I come in contact with, explain the Gospel or parts of it or explain why our Church is different and they say good story or interesting, but move on. I also wonder about those people who try to "corrupt" LDS people, namely those who try to get us to drink, smoke, have sex, etc., while they may not have a full understanding of what they are doing, a lot of the time they know that to us it is bad and disrespect our stance by continuing to pressure or ask us to do things contrary to our beliefs, even after we've explained why we believe the way we do.

3) Does it bother anyone that because we have the Gospel in its fulness and are trying to live a higher law at this time, that there are people who live according to lesser standards and do so their entire lives and then eventually in the spirit world they receieve a "get out of jail pass" by saying they believe at that time? I just feel like I am trying to live the Gospel well, struggling, feeling guilty over things that many "in the world" don't blink an eye at and even mock to an extent and those same people will receive the gospel without the veil after they have passed away and don't have to prove themselves for as long I guess.

I wonder why we teach about the other Kingdoms, when it doesn't seem like very many will go to these, except maybe members of the Church who are not valiant. I feel like even the worst of the worst will be exalted because of everyone receiving an equal and fair chance to accept the Gospel in the Spirit World How could someone reject the Gospel in the Spirit World with the veil lifted? It just seems like they have an easier road to exaltation, while those of us who have the Gospel in this life struggle to live as close to the Celestial laws as we can, continuing to fall short, but trying, while those without ths gospel don't go through those same problems. I know it sounds like I'm judgmental and maybe that is what I have to work on. This is why the parables of the Prodigal Son and Workers in the Vineyard have always kind of bothered me.

Anyway, please don't call me names or be rude as I am just trying to develop a testimony of these things, so I don't get kind of bitter when we have lessons about work for the dead.

Regarding #3. No it doesn't bother me. The reason it doesn't it because I believe in the Atonement. I know its real and I know it works and it works for me who is a sinner as well as anyone who has never heard the gospel or maybe was approached by missionaries and didn't listen, or ...well anyone. I think I would be Prideful ( a sin) to say I've accepted the gospel and done all I've been asked I think those who didn't shouldn't get the same advantage.... pride is a sin. So... since we're all sinners I'm not in a position to claim I should have special privileges based on longer activity in the church.

Why do you think that only the valiant (by your definition) will be the only ones in the Celestial Kingdom?

Edited October 21, 2014 by applepansy

The Folk Prophet · October 21, 2014

Why do you think that only the valiant (by your definition) will be the only ones in the Celestial Kingdom?

Well, there is the whole, specific, "These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus" thing from D&C 76.

siistipoika · October 22, 2014

Thank you to all of you who have replied to me. I would like to apologize if I came across as judgmental or prideful; I just wanted to ask questions that have been on my mind for a while. I don't wish eternal damnation on anyone, I've just been wondering about this topic. I have never heard anyone say in church that people in the Spirit World/Prison may not accept the Gospel and I have never heard that the veil is still in place for those in Spirit Prison. Is there somewhere in scripture where this is found?

I believe in the Atonement and I recognize that everything good in my life has come from being a member of the church and attempting to follow Christ. I do not have a perfect knowledge of things and the hope is all I feel I have at times. I had always heard it was more difficult to repent in Spirit Prison but that was the end of what I knew and if we did temple work for our ancestors, then they would go to the Celestial Kingdom.

Anyway, I ask these things because on a personal level there are people who have committed sin who are close to me and their choices have affected me and changed my life. I believe the Atonement applies to them and if/when they repent that is between them and God; I was just wondering what if they died without repenting how would it work? If I went and "did their temple work" would it all be OK?

So, as I understand it now, people who die without finding the Gospel, baptism, etc. are taught the Gospel in Spirit Prison and the veil we have here is still in effect there, they don't have any more knowledge or remembrances than what we have now? If they choose to accept the Gospel and the temple work is done for them then they will likely receive exaltation and if they reject it, then they will likely go to another kingdom? I've read the Doctrine and Covenants and I don't remember it being that detailed about the Spirit World, is there another source for this?

Thank you

The Folk Prophet · October 22, 2014

Thank you to all of you who have replied to me. I would like to apologize if I came across as judgmental or prideful;

I don't think you came across that way...not blatantly, or more than the average Joe. Our responses are meant as reminders to us all to keep these things at bay, as it is a natural thing to do. Everyone has likely wondered the same things at some point or another.

I have never heard that the veil is still in place for those in Spirit Prison. Is there somewhere in scripture where this is found?

It sort of depends on what you mean by "the veil". Even that term is used in various ways. In some usages it means the division between the physical and the spirit world. In that sense, of course, spirits of the dead are on the other side of the veil. In another sense, however, it refers to our memories of the pre-existence and God and our understanding and knowledge of him. This is not restored immediately upon death, but will be when we are brought to judgment. (See https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/veil?lang=eng to get what I mean by different usages of the word.)

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