Mendelian Genetics


Seminarysnoozer
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Anyone who has taken basic biology knows that Mendel's laws can help predict the rate of certain traits if one knows what the parents have and if the trait is a simple trait and which feature is dominant vs recessive. Patterns of inheritance are established for various diseases and traits such as Myotonic Dystrophy etc.  Of course there are complex traits and traits are subject to genetic mutation etc.

 

Knowing that there is a calculable ratio of phenotypes passed on for those simple traits, does that clash with the idea that God has His hand in all things?  Or can there be processes that are truly random and calculable?

 

For example, having facial dimples is a dominant trait so if one parent has dimples with one dominant gene and one recessive gene and the other parent has two recessive genes for facial dimples then the calculated ratio of children with facial dimples is 1/4 their offspring.  Does God just happen to, by having "His hand in all things" make it so that ratio is met every time or does He sometimes leave things to the randomness that is this fallen state of change and corruption?

 

Is it possible that God simply puts the spirits that need that certain combination of traits for this life are assigned to that body, knowing the odds and seeing the future would allow for that.  Or does God take the spirit and manipulate the body to match the spirits needs no matter what the calculable odds are.  For example if we know that 50% of the children of a parent that has Myotonic Dystrophy will be receive the gene mutation that causes Myotonic Dystrophy could we say that God could have "His hand in all things" and make it so 0% of the children get it or all of them?  Or is it one of those things that is left to its calculable rate, a true random odds, like flipping a coin? 

 

The side question would be, are the challenges we face in life so tailored that they have to be that manipulated to match a given spirit with some high level of specificity that most of the genes have to match that spirit's profile or is it more like the general calculable rate of variance, whatever the person ends up with for that set of alleles from the parents is within the range of things that spirit needs to be tested on, "letting the chips fall where they may", so-to-speak.

 

Or could it be that God knew the rate of combinations and knew ahead of time that Mary with green eyes would be attracted to Paul's brown eyes and so knew that that their child, Sam would have hazel eyes because of Mary's seemingly random attraction and knowing that Mary's dad lost his job because he fell asleep on the job and had to move to a different town where Paul happened to be?    ... if the calculable rate of inheritance is really intentional it is mind blowing to think that God knows every choice and action that everyone would make to make it appear that it follows some Mendilian law.  

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I'm not sure how much it will contribute, but I am reminded of a couple of things:

 

Einstein's somewhat well known statement, specifically as it regards quantum mechanics, that he had trouble believing that
God would "play dice" with the universe. If memory serves, he later regretted such statements as evidence for the randomness of quantum mechanics grew. This question seems quite similar. We can clearly see that genetics plays a role in our mortal experience, and we like to believe that God has "tailor made" our mortal experience on a very personal level. The deterministic view expressed by the latter seems at odds with the randomness of genetic inheritance.

 

It is always possible that what appears random to us may appear more controlled when viewed from God's perspective. How that works, I clearly do not know.

 

Is it possible that our mortal experience is less "determined" -- less "tailor made" than we tend to believe?

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Is it possible that our mortal experience is less "determined" -- less "tailor made" than we tend to believe?

 

Maybe. The key to justice in life is not what experiences we have or do not have, but how we face the experiences that we do have, and that God understands us and those experiences perfectly, and thereby can be perfectly just in His judgments.

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This delves into Nature versus Nurture. Genes do not absolutely determine all traits and characteristics in the human body.

There are environmental factors that affect gene expression (read more about RNA).

 

Current scientific percentage of the division of where someones personality traits are derived from are as follows

 

 

 

 60% of one's personality is obtained from one's parents and 40% from the environment --wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_versus_nurture

 

So to summarize

Thus even with certain genes for traits your choices in lifestyle: family life, location, food, weather, stress, experience.....etc will all affect how the genes you carry will affect physical and mental development.

 

In religious terms this means the spirit will be able to adapt to it's own circumstances I suppose.

Edited by Crypto
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I recall a Sunday School lesson where the instructor describe three types of trials that we experience in this life. Some are these "tailor made" trials that are specific to us as individuals like we are talking about. The interesting category as it applies to this discussion is the "that is just part of living in a fallen, mortal world." The idea is that sometimes we get sick or injured or economies fail or (insert form of adversity here), not because God has a deep, personally significant lesson that we need to learn from this experience, but because these are the kinds of things that happen in mortality and we need to see how we respond to mortality.

 

Using SS's example of Myotonic Dystrophy (or other genetic illness), perhaps there are some cases where God is specifically manipulating or monitoring genes/conditions to match an individual with a specific trial. Maybe there are other cases where He simply allows the randomness to happen to see what we will make of the situation.

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60% of one's personality is obtained from one's parents and 40% from the environment --wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia...._versus_nurture

 

No nod to choice there, huh?

 

Well, wikipedia said it, so...I guess agency is a lie.  :evilbanana:  

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No nod to choice there, huh?

 

Well, wikipedia said it, so...I guess agency is a lie.  :evilbanana:  

 

Well the scientific stance is "environment", but I've always seen environment as being affected by and chosen by the individual. To me it is a direct nod to choice, what do you think falls under environment? Everything that they couldn't pin on genes lol ^_^ 

 

Wikipedia is a convenient summary view, I could pull more rigorous sources but they tend to be even less readable. IDK how all of you feel about wikipedia as a valid source, but i've written a report of it's reliability so feel free to open a debate about it :P

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My 2 cents:

 

Does God play with dice?  Absolutely!  If He wants you to get snake-eyes, you will.  If He doesn't, then you won't.  If He doesn't care, then it'll be whatever.  

 

Say a hypothetical child has 50% odds of inheriting a generic disease from a parent.  If God wants that kid to have it, then he will (or vise versa).  Or maybe God doesn't want to micro-manage things in this case.   

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My 2 cents:

 

Does God play with dice?  Absolutely!  If He wants you to get snake-eyes, you will.  If He doesn't, then you won't.  If He doesn't care, then it'll be whatever.  

 

Say a hypothetical child has 50% odds of inheriting a generic disease from a parent.  If God wants that kid to have it, then he will (or vise versa).  Or maybe God doesn't want to micro-manage things in this case.   

Thanks for your comment.  I think the thing I am pondering is an idea that randomness, or "rolling the dice" is a fallen state feature.  Not that He necesarily plays with dice but allows it to happen because that is what happens with the corrupted state we are in.

 

I have a feeling that when He created the Garden of Eden, for example, there was no rolling the dice.  It was done how it always was done in a very specific way.  The Fall introduced change and randomness and "rolling the dice".   Could that be true?

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For the record; I am with Einstein.  I do not believe G-d rolls the dice with anything.  I do not believe anything is left to chance and that all things can be known and are known and planned in advance.  Where I differ in the determinism verses freewill discussions and arguments is that I believed we planned out our own mortal lives before we were born.  I do not believe anything can or will happen that we did not know would happen and agree to and accept as part of our agency in the pre-existence for our mortal journey in this current life.  

 

Why would we choose really stupid and bad things?  Because we all get a “get out of jail (hell)” free card that we call the atonement, which we can play at the end if we so wish and choose.  And as I understand the D&C – even if and how we use our “get out of hell” card was known in advance and that which was from the beginning is plainly made manifested.

 

The big problem we have in this life – is uncertainty.  Since we do not know anything – we must live by faith that everything will turn out and that we will get exactly what we (along with everyone else) and G-d planned and worked out together.

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For the record; I am with Einstein.  I do not believe G-d rolls the dice with anything.  I do not believe anything is left to chance and that all things can be known and are known and planned in advance.  Where I differ in the determinism verses freewill discussions and arguments is that I believed we planned out our own mortal lives before we were born.  I do not believe anything can or will happen that we did not know would happen and agree to and accept as part of our agency in the pre-existence for our mortal journey in this current life.  

 

Why would we choose really stupid and bad things?  Because we all get a “get out of jail (hell)” free card that we call the atonement, which we can play at the end if we so wish and choose.  And as I understand the D&C – even if and how we use our “get out of hell” card was known in advance and that which was from the beginning is plainly made manifested.

 

The big problem we have in this life – is uncertainty.  Since we do not know anything – we must live by faith that everything will turn out and that we will get exactly what we (along with everyone else) and G-d planned and worked out together.

It is possible to know what will happen even if it is by chance, those things are not mutually exclusive.  If I roll the dice and I know I am going to roll snake eyes on the fifth roll, it could still be "chance" and yet it was forseen that the fifth roll was snake eyes.   We can know what is going to happen to us is a set of random occurances and accept it.  Can that not be true?

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Why would anyone choose to go through deterministic life circumstances that would get them relegated to a lesser kingdom?
That simply seem unjust to me. Unless the end result of any path of choices would be to the celestial glory. Which seems very un-doctrinal, and much more like Satans plan. While Determinism and Fatalism to me sound exactly like Satans plan.

The only other possibility that I can think of would be that free agency and Gods ability to foresee all things are not mutually exclusive. (Basically what seminarysnoozer said) 

If things were thus I would directly ask God before being sent to earth, will I make it? Will my other brothers and sisters have the chance to make it? and if not it sounds like a terrible deal. It would mean that you have already been judged, the scales weighed in balance and sorry, you get to suffer. (or hopefully not)

Sorry, I have strong emotions on this type of topic  :excl:  :.bullhorn:  :cursing:  :disclaimer:  :angel:  :rant:  :jedi: 
If I stick around I'll have to watch myself.

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It is possible to know what will happen even if it is by chance, those things are not mutually exclusive.  If I roll the dice and I know I am going to roll snake eyes on the fifth roll, it could still be "chance" and yet it was forseen that the fifth roll was snake eyes.   We can know what is going to happen to us is a set of random occurances and accept it.  Can that not be true?

 

Rolling the dice is a good analogy.  If we know the exact pre-position of the dice – the angle and force of the roll and the angles of the table and other obstacles shapes and positions – we can know every time how the dice will end up.  It is not as some say random.  The only reason to not know the result of anything is because enough of the initial conditions and parameters are not known.  Random possibilities and agency look me to be opposing principles not complementary or supplementary concepts.  If you know of the 5th roll the result will be snake eyes – there can be no randomness in that possibility.  If something is random each case is separate and all the possibilities are exactly the same each time.  For example if you rolled snake eyes 5 time in a row – the possibility for snake eyes is the same for each roll and will remain the same for the next.  Likewise rolling snake eyes twice in a row was the same with the second and third roll. 

 

If G-d knows something – why would he not tell us if indeed agency is an actual principle?  My answer is that G-d did tell us and we made choices based on our agency and what he told us (what we knew).  We cannot make choices concerning things we do not know.  If G-d left out anything and we are forced to make an ignorant choice – We cannot argue that we exercised agency.  By definition; those that know by their knowledge and their choice to withhold that knowledge are manipulating us for the outcome that they knew would be. Ignorance in this life is not for the purpose of agency – there has to be another reason.

Edited by Traveler
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Why would anyone choose to go through deterministic life circumstances that would get them relegated to a lesser kingdom?

That simply seem unjust to me. Unless the end result of any path of choices would be to the celestial glory. Which seems very un-doctrinal, and much more like Satans plan. While Determinism and Fatalism to me sound exactly like Satans plan.

The only other possibility that I can think of would be that free agency and Gods ability to foresee all things are not mutually exclusive. (Basically what seminarysnoozer said) 

If things were thus I would directly ask God before being sent to earth, will I make it? Will my other brothers and sisters have the chance to make it? and if not it sounds like a terrible deal. It would mean that you have already been judged, the scales weighed in balance and sorry, you get to suffer. (or hopefully not)

Sorry, I have strong emotions on this type of topic  :excl:  :.bullhorn:  :cursing:  :disclaimer:  :angel:  :rant:  :jedi: 

If I stick around I'll have to watch myself.

 

I glad you have strong emotions.  But I have an important question to ask?  If anything happens to you that is not by your choice -- How can you believe you have agency?  And that someone or something else did not determine that outside of your agency and your power to choose?

 

We cannot begin to explorer why all that happens to us is by our choice until we understand it must be in order for us the experience good from evil.  Once we know the difference – we can make an actual choice and exercise our agency for what will be in eternity (hear after).   The trick is to not fall in love with evil and choose it over that which is good.

 

Regardless of what we choose in this life we will know by experience what we will desire for eternity.  I cannot imagine the final judgment where anyone realizing the effects of evil upon them from bad choices in this life and desiring only good from now on – would then beg for forgiveness and mercy at that time – and that G-d would look upon them and say their tears are in vein – even though they chose in ignorance not knowing what would be – that it is his pleasure that we suffer for eternity and that there is no provision or other possibility provided by the most intelligent, brilliant and powerful being that is or can be.

 

Rather I see the final judgment as our insistence to embrace some evil over G-d’s good sense and advice in the matter and whose lot is to live in hell – go on their way there dancing and rejoicing – while G-d weeps.

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I glad you have strong emotions.  But I have an important question to ask?  If anything happens to you that is not by your choice -- How can you believe you have agency?  And that someone or something else did not determine that outside of your agency and your power to choose?

 

We cannot begin to explorer why all that happens to us is by our choice until we understand it must be in order for us the experience good from evil.  Once we know the difference – we can make an actual choice and exercise our agency for what will be in eternity (hear after).   The trick is to not fall in love with evil and choose it over that which is good.

 

Regardless of what we choose in this life we will know by experience what we will desire for eternity.  I cannot imagine the final judgment where anyone realizing the effects of evil upon them from bad choices in this life and desiring only good from now on – would then beg for forgiveness and mercy at that time – and that G-d would look upon them and say their tears are in vein – even though they chose in ignorance not knowing what would be – that it is his pleasure that we suffer for eternity and that there is no provision or other possibility provided by the most intelligent, brilliant and powerful being that is or can be.

 

Rather I see the final judgment as our insistence to embrace some evil over G-d’s good sense and advice in the matter and whose lot is to live in hell (lessor kingdom)– go on their way there dancing and rejoicing – while G-d weeps.

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Rolling the dice is a good analogy.  If we know the exact pre-position of the dice – the angle and force of the roll and the angles of the table and other obstacles shapes and positions – we can know every time how the dice will end up.  It is not as some say random.  The only reason to not know the result of anything is because enough of the initial conditions and parameters are not known.  Random possibilities and agency look me to be opposing principles not complementary or supplementary concepts.  If you know of the 5th roll the result will be snake eyes – there can be no randomness in that possibility.  If something is random each case is separate and all the possibilities are exactly the same each time.  For example if you rolled snake eyes 5 time in a row – the possibility for snake eyes is the same for each roll and will remain the same for the next.  Likewise rolling snake eyes twice in a row was the same with the second and third roll. 

 

If G-d knows something – why would he not tell us if indeed agency is an actual principle?  My answer is that G-d did tell us and we made choices based on our agency and what he told us (what we knew).  We cannot make choices concerning things we do not know.  If G-d left out anything and we are forced to make an ignorant choice – We cannot argue that we exercised agency.  By definition; those that know by their knowledge and their choice to withhold that knowledge are manipulating us for the outcome that they knew would be. Ignorance in this life is not for the purpose of agency – there has to be another reason.

I used the word "chance" I know but maybe the better word is odds.  If the overall odds of getting Myotonic dystrophy from a parent who has MD, for example, is 50%, then taking all cases of known MD we know that 50% of the offspring of parents with MD get the disease, this is a calculable and fairly reliable "odds" that can't be changed really without some manipulation of genetic "laws" of inheritance. 

 

Whether one individual within a family gets MD or not could possibly be known ahead of time and arrangements made for that particular spirit to have that body that is affected.  Imagine with me, if you will, a family of 6 children waiting in Heaven to come to Earth, going to a family in which one parent has MD.  Statistically 50% of the children with get it.  Lets say Sally is the first one to arrive to this family.  My question is, does God manipulate things so that Sally does not get MD or does God knowing ahead of time that the first child of this family would be a body that does not have MD and therefore Sally's spirit should go to that body?  Or does God change the situation of the body to make it so Sally's body is kept from the disease, change the body, and then make it so the sibling gets the MD to keep the odds as they are, 50%.?

 

Or is it possible that all 6 children were sent to this family knowing that there was a "50%" chance of them getting MD and they all were okay with that (telling them ahead of time of the odds) either way?  Why is it that God could not simply say, these are the possible situations you are going to end up with, in any case the test will be fair because I am aware of your situation and will judge accordingly but 50% of you are going to have this particular challenge.

 

There seems to be a component of chance or at least unkown in these familiar lyrics; "It may not be on the mountain height

Or over the stormy sea,
It may not be at the battle's front
My Lord will have need of me.
But if, by a still, small voice he calls
To paths that I do not know,
I'll answer, dear Lord, with my hand in thine:
I'll go where you want me to go."
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I used the word "chance" I know but maybe the better word is odds.  If the overall odds of getting Myotonic dystrophy from a parent who has MD, for example, is 50%, then taking all cases of known MD we know that 50% of the offspring of parents with MD get the disease, this is a calculable and fairly reliable "odds" that can't be changed really without some manipulation of genetic "laws" of inheritance. 

 

Whether one individual within a family gets MD or not could possibly be known ahead of time and arrangements made for that particular spirit to have that body that is affected.  Imagine with me, if you will, a family of 6 children waiting in Heaven to come to Earth, going to a family in which one parent has MD.  Statistically 50% of the children with get it.  Lets say Sally is the first one to arrive to this family.  My question is, does God manipulate things so that Sally does not get MD or does God knowing ahead of time that the first child of this family would be a body that does not have MD and therefore Sally's spirit should go to that body?  Or does God change the situation of the body to make it so Sally's body is kept from the disease, change the body, and then make it so the sibling gets the MD to keep the odds as they are, 50%.?

 

Or is it possible that all 6 children were sent to this family knowing that there was a "50%" chance of them getting MD and they all were okay with that (telling them ahead of time of the odds) either way?  Why is it that God could not simply say, these are the possible situations you are going to end up with, in any case the test will be fair because I am aware of your situation and will judge accordingly but 50% of you are going to have this particular challenge.

 

There seems to be a component of chance or at least unkown in these familiar lyrics; "It may not be on the mountain height

Or over the stormy sea,
It may not be at the battle's front
My Lord will have need of me.
But if, by a still, small voice he calls
To paths that I do not know,
I'll answer, dear Lord, with my hand in thine:
I'll go where you want me to go."

 

 

We are told that we enter this live with a veil of forgetfulness over our minds.  Many religions do not believe we have any memories but for LDS, the concept is we came to this life having forgotten all.  It is necessary that we forget for this experience to be complete.  Why? – that is part of what is forgotten.  However we are told we exercised agency to come to earth and we will exercise agency to determine our next life.  One reason I have speculated that we have forgotten all is for the same reason for the child game of pin the tail on the donkey.  So we have an excuse for pinning the tail where it does not belong.  Likewise we have excuse for our sins to make repentance possible.  We cannot repent of something we do deliberately with no regret.

 

The assumption that we do not know things here in our mortal life because we never knew them; is an assumption based in the false teaching of the Great Apostasy that this life is the beginning of your choices.  Thus it is we chose to make mistakes while blindfolded – however, it also appears to me that by our agency we chose previously the mistakes we would make – all is according to our own plan.  If it is not according to our plan how can we claim agency?  If we only act out G-d’s plan then the agency is his not ours.

 

There is one final way to consider this – this is through the lens of covenant.   We came to earth because me made a covenant with G-d.  What is that covenant we made with G-d?  Perhaps before we answer that question we should ask the question – What is a covenant?  And how does agency apply to covenant?

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Others agency to affect you does not make a change in your ability to choose

how to react or what choices you will make. Until mind control technology exists our will is our own. Unless the world is deterministic, which would mean free will is an illusion. I don't think free will in an illusion.

I don't believe people are slaves to circumstance. They have the ability rise above all things placed before them (maybe with a few physical limitations, since the world is fallen). Whether they will or not is a different question. 

 

I'm not sure we are communicating on the same wavelength Traveler, or maybe we are?

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