Conflicting opinions on Kingdoms of Glory


siistipoika
 Share

Recommended Posts

So, is there progression between Kingdoms after this life? I've read conflicting opinions. fair mormon has some quotes from prophets, but lately I've heard people bringing it up saying it logically makes sense that there would be progression between Kingdoms.

Edited by siistipoika
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, is there progression between Kingdoms after this life? I've read conflicting opinions. fair mormon has some quotes from prophets, but lately I've heard people bringing it up saying it logically makes sense that there would be progression between Kingdoms.

 

It is not a matter of "logic". Logic is the process of using truths we already know as building blocks to prove the existence of other truths, things that must necessarily arise from what we know now. For example, the First Presidency taught of the existence of a heavenly Mother by using a sort of logical argument stating that the existence of an exalted Man or "Father" necessarily implied the existence of an exalted Woman or "Mother". There are many different forms of logic, but I know of none that would allow us to take our current imprecise and partial understandings of this topic and use them to prove that "kingdom progression" must necessarily exist.

 

You could argue (quite convincingly) that the scriptural and prophetic teachings seem to imply that "kingdom progression" does not happen -- and I would probably agree with you -- but that still does not constitute proof in any rigidly logical sense. We really can't use logic to establish the facts one way or the other.

 

But that doesn't mean both are equally likely or equally reasonable. We do not have a public revelation of the truths of these matters; I rather suspect we don't know enough to understand those answers, even if they were given to us. We are thus left to grope in the dimness, offering opinions and telling stories as to why our suspicions ought to be valued over someone else's. Here's mine:

 

In evolutionary biology -- a topic that interests me greatly, but that I have no real expertise in past the dedicated spectator level, so take the literality of my examples with a grain of salt -- living things are classified according to a taxonomy that starts (depending on which taxonomy you like best) with the organism's "kingdom". There are several kingdoms, varying depending again on which taxonomy you want to follow, and they typically have names like Animals, Plants, Amoebas, Slime molds, Fungi, and so forth.

 

Within each kingdom you find an astonishing variety of living things. "Animals" include things ranging from an all-but-invisibly-tiny water bear to the 100+-foot-long, nearly half-million-pound blue whale, from a millipede to a moose, from a lobster on the bottom of the sea to a mountain goat at 15,000 feet, from a fish sailing through the water to a hawk sailing through the air. All of these are part of the Animal kingdom.

 

If you look at, say, the Plant kingdom, you will see an equally astounding variety of living things, from duckweed that looks like cornmeal floating on the water to giant redwood trees nearly 400 feet tall (think of it!), from pansies to cacti, from Kentucky bluegrass to carnivorous (!!) Venus flytraps.

 

Some very long time ago indeed, possibly billions of years ago, these separate kingdoms of organisms were thought to have had common ancestors. But at some point, some organism took the path of becoming Animals and some took the path of becoming Plants. Today, hundreds of millions or perhaps billions of years later, both types of beings (or rather, their descendants) exist and flourish. But a Plant and its descendants will never become Animals. Never. They are of the Plant kingdom. That branch divided a very, very, very long time ago. That choice was made anciently. It can and will never be undone. Plants may, and surely will, continue evolving and developing in all sorts of astounding directions, but they will never become Animals. And Animals will never become Plants. It makes absolutely no sense to suggest that any living thing would "progress" from one kingdom to another. Such an idea doesn't even make sense. A Plant and an Animal are both "living things", but they are of completely different types.

 

I believe the "kingdoms" spoken of in the Doctrine and Covenants are of a somewhat similar nature. All such kingdoms of glory are comprised of human souls, just as all taxonomic kingdoms are comprised of living things. All such kingdoms of glory will offer progression to their inhabitants, just as Plant and Animal species, and indeed all living things, progress through the generations with varying rates and types of change. But the divisions have taken place. Plants are not Animals, and never will be. In the same sense, we are choosing this day how we want to exist. We make our choices now, in this life, while we draw breath, and perhaps also in the next while we await the Resurrection. But the time will come when our choice will have been made. We will have set ourselves on our eternal course, and our loving and generous Father will do all that can be done to help us further ourselves along that path.

 

But make no mistake, they are separate paths, and the further along them we go, the further they separate. And those paths never cross each other.

 

An elm tree spends no time wishing it were a buffalo. For the most part, and with only a few bizarre exceptions, a person spends no time wishing he were a protozoan. In my opinion, it will be so in the next life; I don't see that those in a "lower" kingdom will spend any time thinking about how great it would be if they were in a "higher" kingdom.

 

But our Lord has told us that we will gain a maximum of joy and eternal happiness, literally beyond our ability to understand, if we seek honestly and intently for exaltation. I believe him, and so I seek.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In 1910, Joseph F. Smith said, "Once a person enters these glories there will be eternal progress in the line of each of these particular glories, but the privilege of passing from one to another (though this may be possible for especially gifted and faithful characters) is not provided for."  (Improvement Era 14:87).

 

The bad news from this quote is that there is absolutely no teaching in the Church which states that, at some point in distant eternity, one can "jump up" from lesser to greater kingdoms.  Personally, I wouldn't hold my breath that this is possible, and I certainly wouldn't live my life unworthily in hopes that such a teaching could save me from my bad choices.

 

The good news from this quote is that eternal progress continues within each kingdom.  To me, this is immensely comforting and shows that people in lower kingdoms will still have a happy and purpose filled eternity.  At the same time, mercy cannot rob justice, and this life is the time to prepare to meet God.  Don't blow it!

Edited by DoctorLemon
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure I'd accept a rare quote and/or rare philosophy as doctrinally sound. The clarification for what is and is not doctrine is that what we preach is common and easy to discover.

 

Point being, I'm not saying that Joseph F. Smith was wrong, by any means (I wouldn't dare), but that we can't necessarily accept this quote as factual, doctrine.

 

In point of fact, eternal progress, literally, has been clarified to mean the expansion of worlds, works, and seed. This privilege is clearly and specifically reserved for those who are given eternal lives (which means the same thing), as in exaltation. So whatever Joseph F. Smith meant by their ability to eternally progress, it was not that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The teachings of Jesus seem to hint that at least some people will be surprised when they discover their eternal destinies.  His parable of the sheep and goats is the best example I can think of, but there are others.

 

And yet at the same time I was taught that nobody will be filing appeals when the last judgement occurs.  Everyone will agree that their eternal homes were decided fair and square.  Sort of like when you step on the bathroom scale.  You may be shocked and amazed by your heavier-than-expected weight, but you must accept it as the natural consequence of your own eating choices.

 

If we press the food analogy further we get some interesting ideas.  In the parable of the sheep and goats, Jesus clearly says that our choices determine our eternal homes, and that our choices can be measured most accurately by our deeds.  Living in sin and selfishness is sort of like eating nothing but pizza, ice cream, and beer your entire life.  It may be pleasant for a few meals, but ultimately it destroys your health and eventually kills you.  On the other hand, deeds of compassion and love are spiritual nutrients that keep your soul alive in ways that we don't fully understand now.

 

I don't take the kingdoms as literally as others may, but I tend to interpret Scriptures more parabolically than most.  I am even tempted to take Heavenly Father as a parable for some sort of ultimate reality that humans cannot understand.  The central point for me is that the most trouble-free path into God's realm rests upon a valient testimony of Jesus, which means a valiant testimony of the teachings and commandments of Jesus. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

from Bruce R McKonkie devotional entitled seven deadly heresies, given at BYU in 1980

http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=658

 

 

 Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.

 
This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say, "God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?" It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.
 
The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies—some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.
 
Of those in the telestial world it is written: "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end" (D&C 76:112).
 
Of those who had the opportunity to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in this life and who did not do it, the revelation says:
 
Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
 
For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. [D&C 132:16–17]
 
They neither progress from one kingdom to another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a higher kingdom once was. Whatever eternal progression there is, it is within a sphere.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 On the other hand, deeds of compassion and love are spiritual nutrients that keep your soul alive in ways that we don't fully understand now.

We understand them pretty well.

 

God's glory is dependent on bringing about the immortality and Eternal Life of man.

 

Why is that?  It has to do with the fact that self achievement is limited.  If we were to enjoy the successes equally as strong of others as if we did them ourselves then joy could be made endless.

 

Christ's act of the atonement is a demonstration of such power.  It is the trait we all seek, to be able to feel what another feels, to mourn with those that mourn, to celebrate the success of one who achieves immortality and Eternal life, etc.  The degree to which one looks at self for achievement and advancement is inversely proportional to that power. This is why it is important to remain humble, depend on Christ, take glory in Christ and not our own achievement and to learn to love our neighbors as we would ourselves.  It is a tough thing to learn and is developed in the trenches of mortality.

 

If one could take on the deeds of others as if they did them their self then that could also apply to all those that came before, making a person endless in achievement but also in time with no beginning or end, it would give them Eternal Life.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, is there progression between Kingdoms after this life? I've read conflicting opinions. fair mormon has some quotes from prophets, but lately I've heard people bringing it up saying it logically makes sense that there would be progression between Kingdoms.

no idea. i would not bank on it tho.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share