Brigham Quote - Why aren't we all rich?

[The Folk Prophet]

An interesting Brigham Young quote for discussion.

 

"If the Latter-day Saints will walk up to their privileges, and exercise faith in the name of Jesus Christ, and live in the enjoyment of the fulness of the Holy Ghost constantly day by day, there is nothing on the face of the earth that they could ask for, that would not be given to them.  The Lord is waiting to be very gracious unto this people, and to pour out upon them riches, honor, glory and power, even that they may possess all things according to the promises he has made through his Apostles and Prophets"

 

Thoughts?

Edited November 12, 2014 by The Folk Prophet

[Just_A_Guy]

By ninteenth century standards we are all, indeed, unimaginably rich--both individually and collectively.

 

Heck, even by twenty-first century standards the Church, institutionally, is filthy rich.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Just_A_Guy

[EarlJibbs]

I have often thought about wealth and if it would change me. I wonder how many of us would be able to stay spiritually strong and not become complacent or conceded upon receiving " riches, honor, glory and power" poured out on us. I dare say that I would rather take my chances at being in humble circumstances than the burden of the promise. But that's me taking the easy route. Be rich enough, be good enough...

 

I knew a person that wanted to become rich and promised the Lord that if he would bless him with this, he would help as many people as he could. He was an honest man and already helped the poor and needy as much as he could. He would donate his time freely. He wondered why he would not be blessed with his desires if it was righteous and pure. He has asked this for many many years and is still in the same circumstances. He has worked hard in his self employment and tried even to start up more business ventures. I think about him and wonder the same thing. Maybe the Lord is watching out for his soul. That he would change for worse if he were to receive his desires. 

Edited November 12, 2014 by EarlJibbs

[The Folk Prophet]

By ninteenth century standards we are all, indeed, unimaginably rich--both individually and collectively.

 

Heck, even by twenty-first century standards the Church, institutionally, is filthy rich.

 

I believe that is (you slippery lawyer you) besides the point.

[notquiteperfect]

- rich means different things to different people

- some personalities don't put much importance on $ and even just give it away when they think they have too much

- some have the false notion that being rich is bad (ie "$ is the root of all evil")

[The Folk Prophet]

I have often thought about wealth and if it would change me. I wonder how many of us would be able to stay spiritually strong and not become complacent or conceded upon receiving " riches, honor, glory and power" poured out on us. I dare say that I would rather take my chances at being in humble circumstances than the burden of the promise. But that's me taking the easy route. Be rich enough, be good enough...

 

I knew a person that wanted to become rich and promised the Lord that if he would bless him with this, he would help as many people as he could. He was an honest man and already helped the poor and needy as much as he could. He would donate his time freely. He wondered why he would not be blessed with his desires if it was righteous and pure. He has asked this for many many years and is still in the same circumstances. He has worked hard in his self employment and tried even to start up more business ventures. I think about him and wonder the same thing. Maybe the Lord is watching out for his soul. That he would change for worse if he were to receive his desires. 

 

So...interesting thoughts.

 

Some questions according:

 

A: the quote doesn't talk about becoming rich because we promise to use the richness for good.

 

B. If one were to become rich through the means given in the quote, would one really be likely to be destroyed by it?

 

C. If the Lord keeps us from being rich by looking out for our souls, then why the promise from Brigham?

 

D. Does the Lord not, generally, try us, rather than protect us, to see if we will be and do as He asks?

[The Folk Prophet]

- rich means different things to different people

 

Also beyond the point, methinks. Unless your point is the same as JaGs, that we're all secretly rich and we just don't know it. ??

 

Er...or was that JaG's point. I don't know.

 

But I may have misguided the discussion a bit by my title. The rich thing isn't really the point. The having anything we want is. Sure. Not all want to be rich. But do any of us have all that we want, be it family, friends, jobs, wealth, health, or whatever? Honor? Glory? Power? All promises made by the prophets and apostle? Do any of us have that?

 

Moreover, and more important to me, is the discussion about living in the enjoyment of the fulness of the Holy Ghost constantly day by day. Do any of us even come close to that?  I mean the fulness of it? That's quite something to consider.

[skalenfehl]

 

You can buy anything in this world with money.

 

No thank you. And "fulness of the Holy Ghost?" Never heard of it until now. I've heard of the fulness of the priesthood and fulness of the gospel, though. If people lived up to their privileges, they would be taught as the people of Enoch were taught. They would have Zion. The riches of the world would be obsolete. The riches of heaven are an entirely different matter. In any case, I am partial to Hugh Nibley's words from such works as Approaching Zion and Zion, A Distant View.

 

 

 

A False Socio-Economic System Sustains Babylon

Personal gain and power--the quest for self-exaltation--are the main driving forces behind Babylon. If these are our driving forces also, then we too belong to Babylon. Babylon focuses on the things of this world, not those of God or a better world. Babylon's socio-economic system is based on the manufacture, promotion, and sale of idols--false gods people worship. The prophets define these the "works of men's hands," inventions of man's own making. Anciently, false gods consisted largely of statues, icons, and fetishes...

...In our society, no less than in ancient Babylon, consumer goods--the works of men's hands--form a vast human enterprise...They follow popular trends and are expensive to buy. They divide people into rich and poor, depending on who can pay the highest price.

 

 

and

 

 

 

Isaiah satirically parodies the role of idols in Babylon's society. People attribute their success in life to them rather than to God. After all, they provide a decent living for those who manufacture, promote, and sell them. In fact, the entire human establishment revolves around them. The very machinery of Bayblon thrives on the profuse production of idols, the fruits of man's resourcefulness and marvelous ingenuity. 

Isaiah depicts this preoccupation with idols as false "worship," set in opposition to true worship. The Hebrew verb"worship" (abad) also means "work" (abad). Applying this dual meaning, whatever people work at, spend their energies and resources on, that is what they worship. Those who belong to Babylon, however, don't perceive it for what it is. They can't for a moment imagine that they are worshiping idols or that there is a problem with what they do. They carry their idols on their persons, they place them in their homes, they idolize and adore them, yet they don't discern that it is idolatry. Materialism, like any other culture, seeks to perpetuate itself and provides its own rationale.

 

and

 

 

 

The contest between the false gods and true God extends beyond material lusts verses spiritual fulfillment. No god that men make is able to deliver them in the day of calamity. There comes a moment of truth--the end of the world--when everyone will recognize who is God and who isn't. "As one, the makers of inventions retreated in disgrace, utterly dismayed and embarrassed" (Isaiah 45:16). Their false gods couldn't save them. Instead, they caused them to fall prey to the archtyrant's propaganda, blinding them to his evil designs. Preoccupied with their idols, they lost sight of Israel's God, their only Savior.

 and

 

 

 

Elders of Israel are greedy after the things of this world. If you ask them if they are ready to build up the kingdom of God, their answer is prompt–"Why, to be sure we are, with our whole souls; but we want first to get so much gold, speculate and get rich, and then we can help the church considerably. We will go to California and get gold, go and buy goods and get rich, trade with the emigrants, build a mill, make a farm, get a large herd of cattle, and then we can do a great deal for Israel.

I have heard this many times from friends and relatives, but it is hokum. What they are saying is, “If God will give me a million dollars, I will let him have a generous cut of it.” And so they pray and speculate and expect the Lord to come through for them. He won’t do it: “And again, I command thee that thou shalt not covet thine own property” (D&C 19:26). “Let them repent of all their sins, and of all their covetous desires, before me, saith the Lord; for what is property unto me? saith the Lord” (D&C 117:4). He does not need our property or our help.

Every rhetorician knows that his most effective weapons by far are labels. He can demolish the opposition with simple and devastating labels such as communism, socialism, or atheism, popery, militarism, or Mormonism, or give his clients’ worst crimes a religious glow with noble labels such as integrity, old-fashioned honesty, tough-mindedness, or free competitive enterprise. “You can get away with anything if you just wave the flag,” a business partner of my father once told me. He called that patriotism. But the label game reaches its all-time peak of skill and effrontery in the Madison Avenue master stroke of pasting the lovely label of Zion on all the most typical institutions of Babylon:Zion’s Loans, Zion’s Real Estate, Zion’s Used Cars, Zion’s Jewelry, Zion’s Supermart, Zion’s Auto Wrecking, Zion’s Outdoor Advertising, Zion’s Gunshop, Zion’s Land and Mining, Zion’s Development, Zion’s Securities–all that is quintessentially Babylon now masquerades as Zion.

 

As far as possessing honor, glory, riches, power, etc, that comes later (D&C 76:50-58)

 

 

50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is thetestimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—

 51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

 52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansedfrom all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the handsof him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

 53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

 54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

 55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—

 56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

 57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.

 58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God

 

[The Folk Prophet]

skalenfehl - I do not disagree with anything you're expressing. I do not think seeking for riches is the appropriate approach (beyond that which is righteous), but rather, the point is that riches would be a result of truly righteous living.

 

In other words, what I really want to discuss is:

 

Can one do this:

 

 

"walk up to their privileges, and exercise faith in the name of Jesus Christ, and live in the enjoyment of the fulness of the Holy Ghost constantly day by day,"

 

and not receive this:

 

"there is nothing on the face of the earth that they could ask for, that would not be given to them."

 

??

 

And if so, how do we reconcile it with the existence of the righteous poor?

Edited November 12, 2014 by The Folk Prophet

[Palerider]

In my mind I like to think of myself as wealthy.....with all that I have been blessed with I consider myself a wealthy man. What more could I ask for. My wife and I enjoy our jobs. We have four awesome kids. We have 3 son in laws and one daughter in law. We also have 4 grandchildren. All kidding aside I am very serious.

That's my 2 cents worth.

[skalenfehl]

skalenfehl - I do not disagree with anything you're expressing. I do not think seeking for riches is the appropriate approach (beyond that which is righteous), but rather, the point is that riches would be a result of truly righteous living.

 

In other words, what I really want to discuss is:

 

Can one do this:

 

 

"walk up to their privileges, and exercise faith in the name of Jesus Christ, and live in the enjoyment of the fulness of the Holy Ghost constantly day by day,"

 

and not receive this:

 

"there is nothing on the face of the earth that they could ask for, that would not be given to them."

 

??

 

And if so, how do we reconcile it with the existence of the righteous poor?

 

The result of "truly righteous living" is not riches. The result is Zion. One cannot reconcile it with the existence of the "righteous poor." As I already mentioned, in order for us to be able to "walk up to our privileges," we ALL have to do three things, essentially:

 

1. Purify ourselves

2. Become one

3. No poor among us

 

If we cannot be equal in temporal things, the Lord will NEVER make us equal in heavenly things. King Benjamin explained these things masterfully. He taught about stripping ourselves of all ungodliness and made the elevating of the poor the hallmark of his address. If we do not abase ourselves to exalt the poor so that we can be equal in all things, we cannot be one and therefore do not "walk up to [our] privileges." This is why our Savior condemned the rich. Thus, if we could do such a thing, then yes, there is nothing the Lord wouldn't give us, but the things we tend to desire are far beneath what He has planned to give us. Whatever you ask for in your daily prayers, He desires to give you infinitely more. 

 

If one were to live in the "fulness of the Holy Ghost," whatever that is, one would inevitably be brought before the Savior, who would make His abode with him as written in the New Testament. I like the way Nephi put it:

 

 

1 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, I suppose that ye ponder somewhat in your hearts concerning that which ye should do after ye have entered in by the way. But, behold, why do ye ponder these things in your hearts?

 2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?

 3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

 4 Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark.

 5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.

 6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

[The Folk Prophet]

skalenfehl - the idea of "riches" or money specifically is a misdirect. It's not to the point.

 

The quote, very clearly, states: "there is nothing on the face of the earth that they could ask for, that would not be given to them."

 

Jobs. Homes. Cars...sure...but not really important. But still...sure.

 

Family? Health? Missionary success? Everything we do, everything we touch...given to us for the mere asking. Is that not scriptural too?

 

The clear key is living in accordance with the full guidance of the Holy Spirit in all that we do -- but that is also clearly set up by faith.

 

If one were to live in the "fulness of the Holy Ghost," whatever that is

 

Seems pretty plain to me. Just as you quoted: ...the Holy Ghost...will show unto you all things what ye should do.

 

Isn't that the obvious meaning? "Fulness" = "all". It doesn't have to be "a thing" for the words to make sense.

 

Let go of money and the fulness of the Holy Ghost thing. It strikes me that the point is, as is also clearly taught in the scriptures, all things are possible by faith. Right?

 

I somewhat wonder if our interpretation of these teachings and concepts has become too figurative. I wonder if they are not more literal than we generally accept.

[skalenfehl]

...Jobs. Homes. Cars...sure...but not really important. But still...sure.

 

Family? Health? Missionary success? Everything we do, everything we touch...given to us for the mere asking. Is that not scriptural too?

 

 

 

You tell me. I am endeavoring to understand your perspective, but I seem to fall short. I will tell you what I know is scriptural:

 

 

D&C 11:6 Now, as you have asked, behold, I say unto you, keep my commandments, and seek to bring forth and establish the cause of Zion.

 7 Seek not for riches but for wisdom; and, behold, the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto you, and then shall you be made rich. Behold, he that hath eternal life is rich.

[skalenfehl]

But I may have misguided the discussion a bit by my title. The rich thing isn't really the point. The having anything we want is. 

 

Ok. Got it. Ok, there comes a point in time when the Lord will ask you what you desire. He has done so throughout scripture. And when the Lord does ask, it is because you have come to a point in your life where He trusts you with what He will endow you. In other words, you will not ask amiss or contrary to His will, nor will you consume it on your lusts. 

[The Folk Prophet]

You tell me. I am endeavoring to understand your perspective, but I seem to fall short. I will tell you what I know is scriptural:

 

I'm only asking questions.

 

My perspective, in this case, probably aligns with yours.

[The Folk Prophet]

Ok. Got it. Ok, there comes a point in time when the Lord will ask you what you desire. He has done so throughout scripture. And when the Lord does ask, it is because you have come to a point in your life where He trusts you with what He will endow you. In other words, you will not ask amiss or contrary to His will, nor will you consume it on your lusts. 

 

See. Perspective's aligned here. I agree.

[Guest]

skalenfehl - the idea of "riches" or money specifically is a misdirect. It's not to the point.

 

The quote, very clearly, states: "there is nothing on the face of the earth that they could ask for, that would not be given to them."

 

Jobs. Homes. Cars...sure...but not really important. But still...sure.

 

Family? Health? Missionary success? Everything we do, everything we touch...given to us for the mere asking. Is that not scriptural too?

 

The clear key is living in accordance with the full guidance of the Holy Spirit in all that we do -- but that is also clearly set up by faith.

 

 

Seems pretty plain to me. Just as you quoted: ...the Holy Ghost...will show unto you all things what ye should do.

 

Isn't that the obvious meaning? "Fulness" = "all". It doesn't have to be "a thing" for the words to make sense.

 

Let go of money and the fulness of the Holy Ghost thing. It strikes me that the point is, as is also clearly taught in the scriptures, all things are possible by faith. Right?

 

I somewhat wonder if our interpretation of these teachings and concepts has become too figurative. I wonder if they are not more literal than we generally accept.

 

 

All things will be given unto you.  Yes.

 

So, if you asked and it wasn't given, that means, what you wanted is not righteous.

 

For example:  I want John Doe Monroe to be baptized.

 

One would think that's a righteous desire, so it should be granted right?  Well, Mr. Monroe does not want to be baptized.  So as it infringes on John Doe Monroe's free agency, then the desire is not as righteous as we may think and therefore, it is not given.  And so, the faithful, would see this as a right answer to the desire, but the not-so-faithful would whine and moan and think God a liar.

 

I kinda see this like Joseph Smith's endless prayer that caused him to lose the book of Lehi.  He thought he had a righteous desire, but find out it wasn't.

Edited November 13, 2014 by anatess

[The Folk Prophet]

All things will be given unto you.  Yes.

 

So, if you asked and it wasn't given, that means, what you wanted is not righteous.

 

For example:  I want John Doe Monroe to be baptized.

 

One would think that's a righteous desire, so it should be granted right?  Well, Mr. Monroe does not want to be baptized.  So as it infringes on John Doe Monroe's free agency, then the desire is not as righteous as we may think and therefore, it is not given.  And so, the faithful, would see this as a right answer to the desire, but the not-so-faithful would whine and moan and think God a liar.

 

I kinda see this like Joseph Smith's endless prayer that caused him to lose the book of Lehi.  He thought he had a righteous desire, but find out it wasn't.

 

Yes. But in theory, if every choice we made was informed by the Holy Spirit then we would not ever ask for anything unrighteous because that action would be pre-informed by the Spirit as the wrong one. Right?

[Vort]

I believe President Young was voicing the same sentiment taught by the ancient Nephite prophet Jacob:

 

And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

 

This looks to me like it's saying that if we walk up to our covenants and desire riches in order to perform good works (and not to buy nice cars or live luxuriously), we will be given riches. Just now, for the first time in my life, it occurs to me that both Jacob and President Young use the plural form, "ye" (or "you"), and not the singular "thou". I had never noticed that before. It makes me think that, perhaps, this is a societal covenant and reward, and not a personal one. We as a people will obtain riches if we live up to our covenants and seek those riches to bless others.

 

I am not and never have been a man of great wealth. I have sometimes wondered if this is a de facto commentary on my state before Christ. Taking at face value the truthfulness of these teachings, I see four possible reasons why I and others like me don't have these riches:

1. We have not yet obtained the requisite hope in Christ.
2. We do not seek riches, either for ourselves or to bless others.
3. As I just now realized, this is perhaps not an individual promise, but a collective promise to the people of God as a whole.
4. The fourth is a personal reason. When I was younger and quite sure that I would make lots of money in my life, I prayed very fervently to God for many years that, if lots of money would harm my children or my marriage, that I not be cursed with it.

Now, I personally suspect that my lack of financial success is due to my not playing the game -- or in LDS terminology, not following the laws upon which making lots of money is predicated. It's not one of my gifts, and the ability to make scads of money has never been something I've sought to develop. So I've always sort of defaulted to Reason #2, but a sneaking suspicion that Reason #1 has something to do with it, too. But I grant that it is possible that God heard and answered my prayers as a young husband and father (prayers which I still hold in my heart, even if I never bother to vocalize them any more, given that being a rich man is not a burden I carry). And if that is the case, my heart swells in gratitude to my Father for loving me and my family enough to keep us from the harm and destruction that would otherwise await us.

[Traveler]

The principle of richness is not such a secret.  It is by obedience to the principle of richness that individuals become rich.  A righteous individual as well as a wicked person can be rich - Righteousness is not required to be rich.  It is so easy to disconnect from righteousness in becoming rich that for most people (according to the Book of Mormon) that richness and righteousness are mutually exclusive. 

 

However, wealth is a whole different matter.

[The Folk Prophet]

The principle of richness is not such a secret.  It is by obedience to the principle of richness that individuals become rich.  

 

I've known too many rich people to believe this is a universal truth.

[FunkyTown]

It's been said on here, so just to reiterate:

The riches promised are not necessarily worldly riches. John the Baptist was righteous - He lived in the desert as a homeless guy who ate grasshoppers.

 

Just because you're righteous doesn't mean you'll be wealthy. Just because you're wealthy doesn't mean you'll be righteous. As per Job, "The rain falls on the righteous and unrighteous alike."

[Guest]

Yes. But in theory, if every choice we made was informed by the Holy Spirit then we would not ever ask for anything unrighteous because that action would be pre-informed by the Spirit as the wrong one. Right?

 

But - we are here to exercise free agency.  There are many times that the Holy Spirit stays silent on things - or the Holy Spirit prompts us on a foundation and then allows us to apply that foundation in all areas of our lives (I'd imagine the Holy Spirit saying - I already gave you guidance on the principle, you get to figure out the application yourself).  And then there are the times that our struggles is made to pass to allow others to exercise their free agency.

 

Our idea of riches may not be in line with God's idea of riches.

Edited November 13, 2014 by anatess

[The Folk Prophet]

FunkyTown and anatess --

 

I'm not disagreeing...just conversing....

 

Who says it doesn't mean earthly riches? Promise after promise about prospering in the land for obedience.  Moreover, the quote at hand says, " there is nothing on the face of the earth that they could ask for, that would not be given to them." On the face of the earth = worldly to my thinking.

 

I mean, clearly, it means eternal and spiritual riches as well. But I'm not so sure it's valid to entirely disregard the literal meaning. 

[Guest]

FunkyTown and anatess --

 

I'm not disagreeing...just conversing....

 

Who says it doesn't mean earthly riches? Promise after promise about prospering in the land for obedience.  Moreover, the quote at hand says, " there is nothing on the face of the earth that they could ask for, that would not be given to them." On the face of the earth = worldly to my thinking.

 

I mean, clearly, it means eternal and spiritual riches as well. But I'm not so sure it's valid to entirely disregard the literal meaning. 

 

 

Nobody is saying it can't be earthly riches.  But earthly riches to one may be a righteous thing to have while it may not be to another.  We are all different - some can handle earthly riches without getting corrupted, while others can't handle it without getting corrupted.  Now, if all of us can be not like that rich man who couldn't shed his riches at a moment's notice when Christ asks him to, then all of us may receive worldly riches so we may have the resources to do the work of God.  But, if our desire is simply so we can have a bigger car to drive around with our chin held up... then, no wonder we're not getting rich.

 

And here's another one-liner... worldly riches are simply resources.  What we do with the worldly riches determines our righteousness.

Edited November 13, 2014 by anatess